Big power 200tdi build

[Neesmo31]

Hey all - i am wanting to build a toy disco, and retain the 200tdi for some personal reasons, and was wondering what the limits of these motors are power wise?

I am looking to do something a bit more than just upgrade the cooler. Plans will be as follows:

Custom steam pipe manifold
Garrett GT2860RS disco potato
Split pulse front pipe with external screamer
Full 2.75 or 3" exhaust
600x300 cooler, alloy piping
Obviously big pump modifications
EGT sensor
turbosmart boost controller
AEM water/methanol kit to lower EGT's

Now is there anything i can do to the engine internally to help it survive some big boost levels? Before it all goes ahead there will be a full rebuild on the motor, new bearings, will try and balance all components, and do a few small tricks here and there.

I know diesels are in a different category, but as a reference B18C honda engines, while only 1.8L can produce well over 500hp if built properly.

I plan on building an engine properly, but not to that extreme.... just want way more poke than standard. Then after that is all sorted, its all suspension, tyres, lockers, bars and winches...

Thanks all in advance for your help. :)

[roverrescue]

Have you contemplated using a VNT to give better low down boost?
Cooling will have to be a consideration if you poke a tdi engine... If you are using a full width IC then maybe a full width radiator behind to up the cooling capacity.

Have fun!
S

[Neesmo31]

It will have a big cooler, and looking into alloy radiators with thermos. Also looking into engine oil coolers and remote locators with front mounted oil cooler.

[cewilson]

Upgrade intercooler and radiator for starters. Definitely monitor water temp, boost pressures and EGT's, I'd also add in transmission/transfer case temp as well.

Upgrade transmission to handle the power.

Transfer case should be good for it.

Look at your propshafts - maybe even consider DC joints if you're going to be lifting it in the future.

Rear diff is a good unit - I'd probably add the locker as it'll protect the rest of the driveline.

Upgrade the rear axles and drive flanges - convert it to oil lubed.


Front wise the diff can be weak. Swap in a locker straight away to protect it.

Upgrade the front axles, CV's and drive flanges.



The reason I mention all of this is because the rest of the driveline is designed for the standard 200tDi. By upgrading the engine as you are planning you will sen bigger stresses back through everything - which only ever results in one thing - BANG!



Cheers
Chris

[PAT303]

Personally I'd do a 300 because all the parts are readily available,I've heard it mentioned that 200 heads aren't made anymore which is a fail point in Tdi's.I'd use the 200 for a nice series 111 SWB build.If you stay with the 200 I'd go the VNT. Pat

[Vern]

Upgrade intercooler and radiator for starters. Definitely monitor water temp, boost pressures and EGT's, I'd also add in transmission/transfer case temp as well.

Upgrade transmission to handle the power.

Transfer case should be good for it.

Look at your propshafts - maybe even consider DC joints if you're going to be lifting it in the future.

Rear diff is a good unit - I'd probably add the locker as it'll protect the rest of the driveline.

Upgrade the rear axles and drive flanges - convert it to oil lubed.


Front wise the diff can be weak. Swap in a locker straight away to protect it.

Upgrade the front axles, CV's and drive flanges.



The reason I mention all of this is because the rest of the driveline is designed for the standard 200tDi. By upgrading the engine as you are planning you will sen bigger stresses back through everything - which only ever results in one thing - BANG!



Cheers
Chris
Aren't front and rear diffs the same on a disco, weak:)

[PAT303]

Look at Turner Engineering in the UK,they sell go faster bits. Pat

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Aren't front and rear diffs the same on a disco, weak:)

Much like the bottom ends on a TDI!!

[Dougal]

That turbo isn't a good choice. It's a turbo intended for low boost across a wide range on a screaming petrol engine. It can't deliver the high boost you need to get more power from a diesel.

What are your power and torque goals? You need those to work out the needed boost pressures and airflows needed to pick the right turbo.
Also water/methanol is a crutch. Lowering EGT's is your turbos job.

[uninformed]

what about LPG injection???

[Dougal]

what about LPG injection???

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1348.jpg

[PAT303]

I don't know why you'll want the popcorn Dougal,your the one with lots to say about LPG/diesel even though you've never had it fitted. Pat

[Neesmo31]

Been talking to MTQ turbo guys, they recommend a complete new GT25, straight bolt on, big exhaust, big cooler, pump tuning, oil cooler, and no water meth. I guess i will still retain reliability....

[big guy]

Could just do a TD5 and chip that and have more power/torque right there.

For monster torque go the Isuzu.

[Neesmo31]

Plans for the driveline are heavy duty axels front/rear, disco 2 DC joints, stock torque converter (they are up to the challenge) heavy duty valve body assembly, trans temp guage, 28 x 28 trans cooler.

Suspension will be king springs 3", tough dog big bore shocks, rear trailing arms, front/rear arb lockers on 33" MTZ's

Warn winch, winch bar, rock sliders and custom tail bar. Hopefully this all goes to plan.

[Dougal]

Been talking to MTQ turbo guys, they recommend a complete new GT25, straight bolt on, big exhaust, big cooler, pump tuning, oil cooler, and no water meth. I guess i will still retain reliability....

The GT25 is a range of turbos. Did they say which one?

[uninformed]

Dougal,

it was a serious question. What are your thoughts??

have you nay experience with adding alcohol to the fuel?

Serg

[Dougal]

Dougal,

it was a serious question. What are your thoughts??

have you nay experience with adding alcohol to the fuel?

Serg

No I haven't done it.
Anything which burns and is fed into the intake of a diesel can cause detonation, just like starting fluids. This is why I haven't done it and won't be doing it to any of my engines.
Even diesel in the intake is a silly idea.

If you'd like to donate an engine, I'll give it a shot.:angel:

Water/meth gets a lot of press in the UK where people use it to try and get more power from computer controlled diesels, it must feel better than paying for a remapped ECU.
They use the water to try and suppress the detonation, too much methanol in the mix and they can hear it detonating apparently. Exactly the same behaviour as lpg fumigation and exactly the same response by the tuners, they water down the methanol until they can't hear it.

Water by itself does very little, it's hard to evaporate enough water to make a difference. If you inject water upstream of the turbo then the water droplets damage the compressor wheel. Downstream of the turbo the increased pressure makes it harder still to evaporate. They call it an alternative to intercooling, but the cooling effect is small, it doesn't compare to intercooling but it's easier so people try it.
If you're running a sled pulling tractor it might be fine, especially depending on the rules. But for a street driven vehicle it doesn't make any sense.

[uninformed]

No I haven't done it.
Anything which burns and is fed into the intake of a diesel can cause detonation, just like starting fluids. This is why I haven't done it and won't be doing it to any of my engines.
Even diesel in the intake is a silly idea.

If you'd like to donate an engine, I'll give it a shot.:angel:

Water/meth gets a lot of press in the UK where people use it to try and get more power from computer controlled diesels, it must feel better than paying for a remapped ECU.
They use the water to try and suppress the detonation, too much methanol in the mix and they can hear it detonating apparently. Exactly the same behaviour as lpg fumigation and exactly the same response by the tuners, they water down the methanol until they can't hear it.

Water by itself does very little, it's hard to evaporate enough water to make a difference. If you inject water upstream of the turbo then the water droplets damage the compressor wheel. Downstream of the turbo the increased pressure makes it harder still to evaporate. They call it an alternative to intercooling, but the cooling effect is small, it doesn't compare to intercooling but it's easier so people try it.
If you're running a sled pulling tractor it might be fine, especially depending on the rules. But for a street driven vehicle it doesn't make any sense.


sorry mate, im a bit confused?

did you cover LPG or Alcohol or both?

there seems to be plenty of companies world wide doing LPG, from the transport industry to racing diesels.

Adding alcohol into the diesel(fuel tank) was something i heard from Dr Karl K

Serg

[rick130]

Serg, there was a big, err 'discussion' on LPG fumigation a a while back.
Dougal stated his case pretty firmly at the time :D

I'll dig it up and you can have a read.

[rick130]

MTQ used to use an out of the box TD04 MHI turbo.

JC may have some numbers, he's fitted a few, I never found out which spec it was but it worked well.

You could then work out what the equivalent GT25 they are now recommending.

BTW, I'd be concerned if the bottom end can handle the neddies too, I've stuffed a set of big ends from running enough fuel to exceed 720* on a long hard climb with a full 3" exhaust system.
The engine was running premium synthetic diesel oil at all times, so I'm lucky I only destroyed shells and not journals.
With the bearing failure mode/s I experienced I'm still not sure whether it's an oil cooling issue, big end distortion under load or just crap OE bearings as I seemed to cover every base with the way they failed.
BTW, the 300Tdi has a better oil pump on paper than a 200tdi too.

I personally think the oil cooling is marginal at best and the top end can't handle too much boost, around 18psi seems to be the absolute safe maximum before head O ringing is necessary.

[Dougal]

sorry mate, im a bit confused?

did you cover LPG or Alcohol or both?

there seems to be plenty of companies world wide doing LPG, from the transport industry to racing diesels.

Adding alcohol into the diesel(fuel tank) was something i heard from Dr Karl K

Serg

The side effects are the same for all fuels added through the intake. If you want to add fuel to a diesel through the intake, it's got to be a fuel that's will not compression ignite when squeezed at 18:1 and heated to 500C.
LPG, alcohol, petrol, diesel can all ignite at the wrong time if fed into the intake on a diesel.

MAN specify their large stationary diesels (house sized diesels) can be run on gas if the gas doesn't liquify when compressed to 250 bar. LPG doesn't pass this test:
It's listed on page 9 of this booklet:
MAN Diesel - Stationary Engine Programme 2010 (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cd5dc038#/cd5dc038/8)

Very few companies outside Australia put lpg into engines. It's only the low price of LPG in Aus that makes it economic. The performance world gave up on LPG in diesels a long time ago. To quote one guy "too many broken parts, not enough power".

[rovercare]

The side effects are the same for all fuels added through the intake. If you want to add fuel to a diesel through the intake, it's got to be a fuel that's will not compression ignite when squeezed at 18:1 and heated to 500C.
LPG, alcohol, petrol, diesel can all ignite at the wrong time if fed into the intake on a diesel.

MAN specify their large stationary diesels (house sized diesels) can be run on gas if the gas doesn't liquify when compressed to 250 bar. LPG doesn't pass this test:
It's listed on page 9 of this booklet:
MAN Diesel - Stationary Engine Programme 2010 (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/cd5dc038#/cd5dc038/8)

Very few companies outside Australia put lpg into engines. It's only the low price of LPG in Aus that makes it economic. The performance world gave up on LPG in diesels a long time ago. To quote one guy "too many broken parts, not enough power".

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/08/1289.jpg

:angel:

[big guy]

I had gas put on my 300tdi and made a huge difference.
So have several friends and more are looking at doing it.

Its an old truck anyhow and my research is inconclusive as far as I can tell, there are more benefits than drawbacks.

I like it, recommend it and love the result.

[clean32]

the 200 TDI is a better choice than the 300 if you wish to push things. i say this mainly because of the head issues of the 300, but then you can upgrade to a 2.8 brazilin head which is much better but not 100% fail proof. 200s have next to zero head issues.

Take not of the bottom end comments. oil temp IS an ISSUE, so i would defiantly be spending the money there along with Good oil. Take note of the KG per cm2 of the oils.

The 200 exorst manifold is much better than the 300 so in the first instance i would leave it alone.
Take note of Douglas turbo comments. but not of his LPG comments. getting new information into his head requires the use of a hammer and as mentioned there is another LPG thread, so no need to pollute this thread with that.

Big exorst is a no brainer, 3" is good

choice of turbo is wide and there will be compromises in what ever way you decide to Go. VNT is good but expensive and great if you want to pick up another 20% bottom end, other wise simpler an cheaper may be better. And intercooler, that goes with out saying.

tweaking the pump is a no brainer, i do it with a Gmeter on my N97 or if you have an HTC or iphone.

16 psi is ok for basically a STD donk and that will move you a lot better than most 300s and surprise a lot of td5s.

The first week point you will come across is the LT77 if that’s what you have.


Moving on i would then look at head bolts, and tin gasket. tiding up the inlet ports a bit ( reshape).

there’s not much more you can do, until you hit the limits of fueling and then you are starting to talk unreal money

Oh an parts are a non issue, its just that aussie only got the 200 for a couple of years, they are still prolific in the UK so parts are widely available, Google and a visa card is all you need. There is also a wealth of information on the 200 on some UK forums. Basically for the same reasons as I said before

[rick130]

the 200 TDI is a better choice than the 300 if you wish to push things. i say this mainly because of the head issues of the 300, but then you can upgrade to a 2.8 brazilin head which is much better but not 100% fail proof. 200s have next to zero head issues.

[snip]

The 200 exorst manifold is much better than the 300 so in the first instance i would leave it alone.
[snip]

[snip]

I believe (but could be wrong) all the new 300Tdi heads are the MWM 2.8 heads and have been for a number of years.

Agree on the exhaust manifold, this is why Bruce Davis used it as the basis for his 300Tdi turbo upgrade, with a BD cast dump to match the 300Tdi exhaust.

[clean32]

I believe (but could be wrong) all the new 300Tdi heads are the MWM 2.8 heads and have been for a number of years.

Agree on the exhaust manifold, this is why Bruce Davis used it as the basis for his 300Tdi turbo upgrade, with a BD cast dump to match the 300Tdi exhaust.

quite correct made in Brazill

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Brazilian???? Do they come with a shaved block or head!??????

Well someone had to say it!!!!!

[rick130]

Brazilian???? Do they come with a shaved block or head!??????

Well someone had to say it!!!!!

Naa, just a waxed and trimmed clutch :angel:

[clean32]

Now that we are off topic

Yes the first bazillion head just didn’t have the staying power
The second bazillion head hangs in there a lot longer
But neither are as reliable or has the staying power of the pommy head ( tdi200)

[Blknight.aus]

before you go asking it for too much power... remember all engines are just heat pumps, more power means more heat.

look at how a blast furnace works and do a quick comparo between gas fired ones and oil (diesel) fired ones in particular the temperatures they can be made to reach.

look up the melting point of aluminium.

without getting into the lpg fumigation argument or the whole convolutant messy "stress of combustion pressure" issue thats inherent with internal combustion engines, if you feed the engine enough air, and enough fuel and wring it hard enough the temperature inside the combustion chamber will go high enough to beat the the thermal conductivity of the ally in the pistons and the head.

Once that happens....

there is only so much power you can make from ANY engine, once you reach the limit of the metalurgy in terms of temp and pressure you're forced to go for more size.

[Dougal]

BMW are running 200kw and 600Nm from 3 litre production diesels.

Who has the record for a landrover 2.5?

[clean32]

BMW are running 200kw and 600Nm from 3 litre production diesels.

Who has the record for a landrover 2.5?

the Transit Vna Puma pomms seem to be topping 200klw with a chip and bits.

[TonyC]

BMW are running 200kw and 600Nm from 3 litre production diesels.

Who has the record for a landrover 2.5?

Hi Dougal,
Isn't a Land Rover 3 litre TDV6 about those numbers?

I have seen a few claimed 200Kw for chipped TD5's, but never any evidence backing it up.

Tony

[rick130]

BMW are running 200kw and 600Nm from 3 litre production diesels.

Who has the record for a landrover 2.5?

I'd guess Lara with his stroked and stoked TD5 ?

[edit] just found some figures on Pirate, Lara claimed 260HP and 430lb/ft of torque, but I suppose it's really 2.8l now :D

[Dougal]

Anyone got a fumigated diesel engine approaching 100hp/litre?