Oils - can we set up a definitive list

[Psimpson7]

Hi All,

Can we try and sort out some sort of definite table of oils as it is very difficult to find anything using search, and it would be great if the info and knowledge that is here was amalgamated into a quick table or similar.

To that end, I have below started a list of engines/boxes/transfer cases and diffs. This is not a complete list (no V8's, limited transfers, no autos etc yet). I have also noted the capacity as best I can tell and some suitable/recommended oils from searching the existing threads.

Can anyone who has any input, be it rectification of mistakes, additions of versions of the mechanical items I have missed (of which there are loads) or suitable oils, please quote my list and update it. Once everyone has added there info, I can compile it into a table and maybe we can get it listed as a sticky in the good oil section to save the numerous 'what oil' threads that pop up.

Ideally can we keep this to oils that meet the requirements, as I think that would be safer than adding ones that people may have been using which don’t.

Please can we try and not let this turn into along conversation as it will get difficult to get the data out of.

Ok:

Engines // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

2.25p // 6l //
2.25d // 6l //
2.5p // 6l //
2.5d // 6l //
2.5td //
2.6p // 6.8l //
200tdi // 6.85 // Penrite HPR15 //
300tdi // 6.85 // Penrite HPR15 //
TD5 // 8.2 // Penrite HPR 5 // Valvoline Synpower 5w40 //
Puma // 6.3l //

Gearboxes // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Series 4 spd //
Lt77 // 2.6l //
Lt85 // 3.1l //
Lt95 // 2.6l //
R380 // 2.7l // Castrol SynTrans 75w85 // Penrite Manual gear oil 75 // Valvoline Duragear 75w85 Syn // Texaco MTF94 // Castrol VMX80
Puma 6spd //

Transfer cases // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

LT95 // 3.1l //
LT230 // 2.3-2.7l // Castrol EXP80w90 // Penrite Hypoid 80w90

Diffs // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Rover // 1.7l // Penrite Hypoid 80w90 // Castrol Syntrax 75w90 // Amsoil Severe gear 75w90 // Penrite Limslip 85w140
Salisbury // 2.5l // Penrite Hypoid 80w90 //

[cewilson]

Once compiled it may be worth transferring this topic to the 'good oils' section for future reference.

[disco_thrasher]

i agree 100% Pete every time you look up on the threads there are at least 2 threads asking about what oil which oil ,and it will be a extremely usefull thread for all as i am sure we are all in the same boat where we have asked in some point of time what/which oil is the best to use
this what i use and very happy

Transfer cases // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

LT95 // 3.1l //
LT230 // 2.3-2.7l //Castrol EXP80/90(recommended by maxi-drive for gear reduction)

Gearboxes // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Series 4 spd //
Lt77 // 2.6l //
Lt85 // 3.1l //
Lt95 // 2.6l //
R380 // 2.7l // Castrol VMX80(ricks 4wd recomendation smooth gear shift) //Castrol SynTrans 75w85 // Penrite Manual gear oil 75 // Valvoline Duragear 75w85 Syn // Texaco MTF94
Puma 6spd //

Diffs // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Rover // 1.7l //Penrite Limslip 85/140 (dual arb locked) Penrite Hypoid 80w90 // Castrol Syntrax 75w90 // Amsoil Severe gear 75w90 //
Salisbury // 2.5l // Penrite Hypoid 80w90 //


AWESOME IDEA

cheers kelvin

[Psimpson7]

Ive added your comments to my original post Kelvin.

Cheers for those.

Rgds
Pete

[bob h]

What about the V8 engines and auto gearboxes???????????

[Psimpson7]

What about the V8 engines and auto gearboxes???????????

I guess if you read my post it may have been covered by:

"This is not a complete list (no V8's, limited transfers, no autos etc yet)"

Thanks for the help though!

[bob h]

I guess if you read my post it may have been covered by:

"This is not a complete list (no V8's, limited transfers, no autos etc yet)"

Thanks for the help though!

S O R R Y, no excuses, but really, I didnt have my other eyes on so I missed a lot of the post. Will be eagerly awaiting for the full list. Bob

[isuzurover]

LT85 - I use Castrol Syntrans, but I have also used VMX80 (recommended to me by Maxi Drive).

3.9D if you want to add it - 8.5L castrol RX super / Penrite Japan 25 truck for high ambient temps

2.25D RX Super or Penrite HPR Diesel 5 or HPR Diesel 15

Series 4 speed - 2.1 L (IRC) - Any 80W90 but should ideally be GL4, not GL5
Series t-case - 2.5 L - same as above

[Lionel]

Hi All,
Gearboxes // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Series 4 spd //
Lt77 // 2.6l //
Lt85 // 3.1l //
Lt95 // 2.6l //
R380 // 2.7l // Castrol SynTrans 75w85 // Penrite Manual gear oil 75 // Valvoline Duragear 75w85 Syn // Texaco MTF94 // Castrol VMX80
Puma 6spd //


For the R380 another possibility is Castrol VMX-M 75W-85, which is similar to, but a little thinner than VMX-80. Neither of these are synthetic, so may need to be changed more frequently.

Cheers,

Lionel

[Pedro_The_Swift]

While the amounts is a great idea,,
isnt the rest covered already in TGO?

[VladTepes]

cough cough why is LT95 liosted as a gearbox and as a T-case ?

[VladTepes]

Also is there a difference in what diff oils are required iff diff is fitted with ARB lockers ? Maxi lockers ? Detroit lockers ? etc.
I have one locked and one unlocked diff. Presumably I can use the same in each.

Rear is an ARB locked Salisbury and front an unlocked Rover (of course) - surely I only need the one oil....

[Psimpson7]

While the amounts is a great idea,,
isnt the rest covered already in TGO?

Not in an easy to find way no! I agree its there, but its not easy to find stuff.

[isuzurover]

Also is there a difference in what diff oils are required iff diff is fitted with ARB lockers ? Maxi lockers ? Detroit lockers ? etc.
I have one locked and one unlocked diff. Presumably I can use the same in each.

Rear is an ARB locked Salisbury and front an unlocked Rover (of course) - surely I only need the one oil....

Many ARB stores say you should use LSD oil in an ARB, however this is incorrect according to head office.

However it shouldn't matter either way. EP80W90 LSD or non LSD should be fine in both diffs. Some people use 85W140 in the sals though, as since it is hypoid it gets hot. I would only use it in summer personally though.

The only time you MUST use LSD oil is if you have an aftermarket LSD fitted - KAM or other.

[rick130]

For the R380 another possibility is Castrol VMX-M 75W-85, which is similar to, but a little thinner than VMX-80. Neither of these are synthetic, so may need to be changed more frequently.

Cheers,

Lionel

VMX-M is thicker than VMX-80 ;)
It was developed for Mitsubishi transaxles but yeah, it can be used in an R380.

[rick130]

Many ARB stores say you should use LSD oil in an ARB, however this is incorrect according to head office.

However it shouldn't matter either way. EP80W90 LSD or non LSD should be fine in both diffs. Some people use 85W140 in the sals though, as since it is hypoid it gets hot. I would only use it in summer personally though.

The only time you MUST use LSD oil is if you have an aftermarket LSD fitted - KAM or other.

Daniel from ARB and I had a donnybrook on OL once over this.
For some reason he took an exception to a throwaway line of mine on their O rings and it then went onto LSD fluids.

In his opinion LSD fluids shouldn't be used in an ARB difflock as it may abrade the O ring which is absolute bollocks IMO as no LSD friction modifier I am aware of could do this.
My argument was that if that was the case, pinion and axle housing/hub oil seals would be failing all over the place in diffs.

I then contacted a triboligist I know who confirmed what I thought.

Oh, and I use an 80W-140 in the Sals all year round.
A good compromise would be a 75W-110, but few blenders in Australia blend to this viscosity yet.

[isuzurover]

Daniel from ARB and I had a donnybrook on OL once over this.
For some reason he took an exception to a throwaway line of mine on their O rings and it then went onto LSD fluids.

In his opinion LSD fluids shouldn't be used in an ARB difflock as it may abrade the O ring which is absolute bollocks IMO as no LSD friction modifier I am aware of could do this.
My argument was that if that was the case, pinion and axle housing/hub oil seals would be failing all over the place in diffs.

I then contacted a triboligist I know who confirmed what I thought.

Oh, and I use an 80W-140 in the Sals all year round.
A good compromise would be a 75W-110, but few blenders in Australia blend to this viscosity yet.

I vaguely recall that. A mate who came on the canning trip was told to use LSD oil (and no doubt had LSD oil put in his diffs) when he had F+R lockers fitted a few months back in Brisbane - fitted by one of the ARB stores.

A few months back I asked Daniel for the (updated?) seal PN for an RD03 I was fitting. He told me if they were the brown seals not to bother replacing them as they never wear out (I did anyway - only a few bucks for peace of mind)

[rick130]

That's were that spat started, someone made a comment about O ring failures in their lockers and I said at a guess you would think it would be viton and Daniel somehow construed that as taking a shot at ARB and therefore him ??

Anyway, it was all good, it made me question my limited knowledge on oils and go and ask a real expert. :D

[ScottW]

While the amounts is a great idea,,
isnt the rest covered already in TGO?

I spent a couple of hours searching through the 10-20 oil threads, trying to find what was best for the engine, gearbox, transfer, rover diff and sals diff. Different threads give different opinions, some are also incorrect of outdated. Having a complete list in one spot would be very handy.

[TonyC]

cough cough why is LT95 liosted as a gearbox and as a T-case ?

Hi Vlad,
That would be because the LT95 is both a gearbox and transfer case in the same casing, but the gearbox bit uses different oil to the transfer case bit.

Tony

[rick130]

I spent a couple of hours searching through the 10-20 oil threads, trying to find what was best for the engine, gearbox, transfer, rover diff and sals diff. Different threads give different opinions, some are also incorrect of outdated. Having a complete list in one spot would be very handy.

How is a single list going to be any different ?

You will have people submitting oils that others will disagree with for various reasons and the reality is there is no such thing as 'best'.
Most people use an oil and say "it's good" just because an engine/gearbox/diff hasn't gone BANG, but mostly an opinion is based on an emotional response to justify a purchasing decision.
A manual gearbox may be a little different as you can feel the action of the synchro's when shifting gears, but even that is only one part of the oils job, it's main purpose is to reduce/eliminate wear, and unless you are doing used oil analysis and teardowns to measure wear, we are still only guessing on an outcome.

Case in point, IMO the heavier engine oils like HPR15 or HPR Diesel in a 2/300tdi are a nonsense, an oil that heavy just isn't needed and may in fact be counter productive but plenty of people on here use it and are really happy with it, yet to me it's a triumph of marketing over substance.

The other problem the forum will face is that with the various sub forums now, a lot of tech issues have been re-directed to them and we are getting multiple oil/tech questions occurring almost simultaneously.
Maybe a sticky (not another one :D) at the top of each forum with a link to the list in The Good Oil ?
Although experience from another forum shows quite a few miss or just don't look at the stickies.

Oil selection isn't that hard, stick to recommended hot viscosities and modern specs (most LR ones are outdated/superseded)
If we can educate on how to read an oil bottle, or better yet a PDS/TDS, then a person can make an informed decision and still bring the emotional side into their purchase by using their preferred brand.

There will never be such a beast as a definitive list, only a suggested list based on a bunch of opinions and that will change yearly as oil standards develop and the marketing boys change labels and names and at the end of the day people need to be free to choose what they want, which also depends on what's available locally.
If they stick to recommended viscosities and modern specs they really can't go wrong.

Anyway, someone will have to maintain it and update it and the mods have enough on their plates already...
Bags not me :lol2:



Anyway, a link to some of my oil ramblings with some ideas on what I think makes a good lube. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/71605-oils-according-rick130.html

[abaddonxi]

<snip!>

Oil selection isn't that hard, stick to recommended hot viscosities and modern specs (most LR ones are outdated/superseded)
If we can educate on how to read an oil bottle, or better yet a PDS/TDS, then a person can make an informed decision and still bring the emotional side into their purchase by using their preferred brand.

<snip!>


Now if we could just find someone to write the definitive guide on how to read the label of an oil can.:angel:

[rick130]

Now if we could just find someone to write the definitive guide on how to read the label of an oil can.:angel:

Cut and paste from a previous post/s :p

[Psimpson7]

Fair enough! lets not bother then.

I pretty much know what oils I need for my cars so I'm happy enough.

[rick130]

Fair enough! lets not bother then.

I pretty much know what oils I need for my cars so I'm happy enough.

Pete, please don't take what I wrote the wrong way, it's a good idea as we are seeing multiple oil requests daily ATM, I just gets bloody hard to do.

JB has his low viscosity oil chart for gearboxes but it's off forum and I'm not even sure if he's a member here but we could ask if we could make a permanent link to it.

I could bodgy a list of suitable viscosities/standards for each spot too.

I started to do it at the bottom of the last post, but it's doubling up on stuff I've already posted elsewhere.

I could pull all that together into one post/thread.

thoughts ?

[disco_thrasher]

I reckon Petes idea is awesome ,like Pete i know what exact oils to put in mine aswell as a few alturnatives so its no advantage to me but there are a **** load :wasntme:of people out there who want alturntatives or just simply help Rick130 i am sure you are probarly extremely experienced in oils and i search your posts for half hour with no real help in what i should use in my car ,i did find it eventually after reading pages and pages ,,,but dont you think a list with the help from you and other oil gurus be so much better .... the heading can change to something like "OILS RECOMMENDED FOR YOUR LAND ROVER BY FORUM MEMBERS"
Pete i reckon you should continue i think it a top idea
cheers Kelvin

[VladTepes]

Bingo! that's me !

(see servicing a 300Tdi Defender thread in the Defender forum).

I want to know what oilds I should use.. talk about can worms.
Let's say I decided to use Castrol oils to narrow it down a bit...

Feel free to repond in the thread in the Defrender forum, ideally. Cheers.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/110571-servicing-300tdi-defender.html

[5teve]

I feel a bit guilty as Petes reccomendation to me i think sparked his idea!

I'm not sure a definitive list is ever going to happen, but i think what Pete was getting at is a list that states what people have used and like, you still have to make a selection but you have a choice.. if you need to it gives you starting point for searching... ie search for syntrans etc...

I spent hours looking and getting confused.. but finally went with petes recomendation (and others) of syntrans in the r380 and penrite hypoid in the diff and transfer.. im a happy bloke as the gearbox is now transformed and the diff / transfer whine is reduced from before..

I know what Rick means that its only my opinion and i am only measuring performance on a very simple scale, not on wear characteristics etc.. but the main point for me is its a starting point for me to find an oil and its specs (and volume) to go in said parts....

Now did i achive anything there? or type words and say nothing? :p

Steve

[rick130]

[snip]



Ok:

Engines // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

2.25p // 6l //
2.25d // 6l //
2.5p // 6l //
2.5d // 6l //
2.5td //
2.6p // 6.8l //
200tdi // 6.85 // Penrite HPR15 //Caltex Delo 400 15W-40// Caltex Delo 400 LE 15W-40// Mobil Delvac MX ESP 15W-40// Mobil Delvac MX 15W-40// Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40// Castrol RX Super 15W-40// Castrol Tection Global ES 15W-40// Castrol Tection Global 15W-40// Castrol Hypuron 15W-40// Castrol Diesel X 15W-40// Penrite Diesel SP 10W-40// Penrite Diesel LA 15W-40// Penrite SIN Diesel 5W-40// Fuchs Titan Ultralube 15W-40// Fuchs Titan Ultra MC 10W-40// Fuchs Titan Cargo MC 10W-40// Fuchs Titan Universal MF 15W-40// Fuchs Titan Universal HD 15W-40
300tdi // 6.85 // Penrite HPR15 //Caltex Delo 400 15W-40// Caltex Delo 400 LE 15W-40// Mobil Delvac MX ESP 15W-40// Mobil Delvac MX 15W-40// Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40// Castrol RX Super 15W-40// Castrol Tection Global ES 15W-40// Castrol Tection Global 15W-40// Castrol Hypuron 15W-40// Castrol Diesel X 15W-40// Penrite Diesel SP 10W-40// Penrite Diesel LA 15W-40// Penrite SIN Diesel 5W-40// Fuchs Titan Ultralube 15W-40// Fuchs Titan Ultra MC 10W-40// Fuchs Titan Cargo MC 10W-40// Fuchs Titan Universal MF 15W-40// Fuchs Titan Universal HD 15W-40
TD5 // 8.2 // Penrite HPR 5 // Valvoline Synpower 5w40 // Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40// Mobil Delvac XHP LE 10W-40// Castrol Enduron Low SAPS 10W-40// Penrite SIN Diesel 5W-40// Penrite Diesel SP 10W-40// Fuchs Titan cargo MC 10W-40// Castrol Edge Sport 0W-40

Puma // 6.3l //
Gearboxes // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Series 4 spd //
Lt77 // 2.6l //
Lt85 // 3.1l //
Lt95 // 2.6l //
R380 // 2.7l // Castrol SynTrans 75w85 // Penrite Manual gear oil 75 // Valvoline Duragear 75w85 Syn // Texaco MTF94 // Castrol VMX80// Penrite SIN Manual Tans Fluid 75W-85// Castrol Syntrans B 75W-80// Castrol Syntrans Max 75W-80// Castrol SMX-O// Redline MTL 70W-80// Redline MT90 75W-90 (if noisy in summer, eg gear rattle when hot, can also be blended with MTL)// Motul Gear 300 75W-90 (excellent at low and high operating temps)// Torco RTF 75W-90 (for hot weather/high load use only, may cause baulking in some 'boxes)// Amsoil MTF 75W-80// Shell Spirax GSX 75W-80// Fuchs Titan Supergear 75W-85

Puma 6spd //

Transfer cases // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

LT95 // 3.1l //
LT230 // 2.3-2.7l // Castrol EXP80w90 // Penrite Hypoid 80w90// Castrol Syntrax 75W-90// Castrol Multitrax 75W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 80W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 75W-90// Neo HD 75W-90// Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90// Amsoil MTG// Torco RTF 75W-90//

Diffs // Refil capacity // oil 1 // oil 2 // oil 3 // oil 4

Rover // 1.7l // Penrite Hypoid 80w90 // Castrol Syntrax 75w90 //
Amsoil Severe gear 75w90 // Penrite Limslip 85w140// Castrol Syntrax 75W-90// Castrol Multitrax 75W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 80W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 75W-90// Neo HD 75W-90// Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90// Amsoil MTG// Torco RTF 75W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear HLS 75W-90
Salisbury // 2.5l // Penrite Hypoid 80w90 // Castrol SAF-XA 80W-140 (particularly if using a cast iron diff cover, eg RockCrusher, Solid, ARB, etc) Castrol SAF-XJ 75W-140// Castrol SAF-XO 75W-90// Castrol Syntrax 75W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 80W-90// Fuchs Titan Gear 75W-90// Neo 75W-90HD // Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-90// Amsoil MTG// Torco RTF 75W-90// Caltex Delo Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-90 and 80W-140// Caltex Synthetic Gear FM 75W-140// Mobil Delvac Synthetic Gear oil 75W-90// Mobil Delvac Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-140// Fuchs Titan Gear HLS 75W-90// Fuchs Titan Supergear 85W-140...


Brief outline on choosing oils for your diesel Defender or Disco.

Tdi's = any decent 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W-40 diesel oil of API CH-4, CI-4, CI-4+, CJ-4 (CF-4 is OK but ideally a CI-4 or better spec is best IMO) or an ACEA B3/B4, (passenger car diesel/light commercial) E4, E7 diesel oil (heavy duty diesel) or combination thereof.

Basically the further into the alphabet or higher the number, the higher the spec, so a CI-4+ oil outperforms a CF-4 at the extremes of performance and the better engine oils in the list above are the 5W-40's and 10W-40's.

TD5's = a good 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40 or 5W-50 engine oil with at least an ACEA A1/B1 but if the oil meets the A3/B3/B4 spec this is preferable.

For the best protection an ACEA E4 or E4/E7 oil can be used. These are heavy duty diesel oils with the E7 spec indicating suitable for extended drains so are very high quality oils. The E7 spec includes a test for wear at high soot levels, extra corrosion and oxidation tests and better piston cleanliness standard than the E4 spec.

Under 35*C ambient a 5W-30 or 10W-30 may be used if meeting the ACEA A3/B3/B4 specs.

R380 = 70W-80, 75W-80, 75W-85 or some 75W-90 GL-4 Manual Trans Fluids or the odd dual rated GL-4/GL-5 manual transmission fluid as listed above.
DO NOT USE A DIFF/GEAR OIL, THE CORRECT OIL WILL STATE "MANUAL TRANSMISSION (or Transaxle) FLUID" on the bottle.

T/case. Any 75W-90, 80W-90, SAE 90, either GL-4 or dual rated GL4/GL-5

Diffs. Must be a GL-5 or dual rated GL4/GL-5 oil of either a 75W-90, 80W-90, SAE90. LSD fluids are OK to use. A straight GL-4 oil isn't robust enough for a diff, containing only 2/3 the EP/AW additive levels of a GL-5 diff oil.
75W-110// 75W-140// 80W-140 are OK in a Sals diff.
My preference is for a 75W-110 (if you can find one) or an 80W-140 in a Sals diff when towing and when using a cast diff cover. These things get bloody hot due to the high hypoid action of the pinion and crown wheel.


Probably the best starting point for any oil recommendation is your owners manual concerning the required viscosities, and next is the oil blenders website where all the major companies have an interactive "What oil do I use ?" selector.

{edit} oops, accidentally hit submit... and there's great oils by Total/Elf, Conoco-Phillips, Shell, BP, all the boutique blenders, etc etc. Hopefully someone can list a few suitable ones.

[VladTepes]

When did LR change from Sals rear to Rover ? I have a 1995 Landie with Sals rear and the 1996 manual I have says diff capacity F&R is 1.7 litres - denoting rover diffs at both ends I imagine.

[isuzurover]

When did LR change from Sals rear to Rover ? I have a 1995 Landie with Sals rear and the 1996 manual I have says diff capacity F&R is 1.7 litres - denoting rover diffs at both ends I imagine.

2004 - but the 90 always had a rover rear - maybe you are reading the 90 bit?

[scrambler]

1) THANKS for the "definitive" list, rick130
2) The Good Oil link should be DIRECTLY to that post
3) A Wiki for techinical questions would be better than an aggregate of threads
4) Different conditions require different oils - I notice Rick mentions high temp/load in some gearbox oils, and I have the opposite problem where my well-cared for LT77 is horrible until up to temp now it's home in a Toowoomba winter, but was perfect in Brisbane and Mackay. The oil is just too viscous close to zero, which has never troubled it before. 120km in garaging will make a difference in the "definitive" oil.

[5teve]

2004 - but the 90 always had a rover rear - maybe you are reading the 90 bit?

i beleive it was 2001 / 2002 some 2001 have the sals others dont. My 2002 extreme has the rover diff... i think the 130's kept them tho didnt they?

Thanks

Steve

[VladTepes]

Ah Ok thanks. Makes sense.

Scrambler re point 3: i shall fix that in a second !

[rick130]

1
[snip]
4) Different conditions require different oils - I notice Rick mentions high temp/load in some gearbox oils, and I have the opposite problem where my well-cared for LT77 is horrible until up to temp now it's home in a Toowoomba winter, but was perfect in Brisbane and Mackay. The oil is just too viscous close to zero, which has never troubled it before. 120km in garaging will make a difference in the "definitive" oil.

Where I am is colder than Toowoomba so I understand what you are saying re cold shift performance but my preference is to bias towards hot performance.
A few years back I logged the oil temps on my R380 (no oil cooler) and found that I was exceeding 75*C within 7-10km just cruising up the highway at 100km/h. :eek:

Apart from viscosity, an oils friction characteristics, (determined by the friction modifiers used) clearances in the box and just how worn or not the syncros are all have a bearing on shift performance.

Interestingly the Motul Gear 300 I'm now using in the R380 shifts a touch better at temps below about 20*C than Syntrans, being quite acceptable at sub zero temps yet it's technically a more viscous oil (75W-90), although in actual fact through some trick chemistry it is thinner than most 75W-85's below 20*.

The best cold shifting I ever had with my R380 was a syn ATF/7wt race gear oil blend, but it was worse when the 'box was up to temp.

[VladTepes]

I'm really confused now because I went to the Castrol site Castrol Australia - NetLube (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/castr_au/default.asp) and drilled down to LR Defender 1995-1999 and there was totally different oils recommended that in Ricks post above.

[rick130]

I'm really confused now because I went to the Castrol site Castrol Australia - NetLube (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/castr_au/default.asp) and drilled down to LR Defender 1995-1999 and there was totally different oils recommended that in Ricks post above.

Not at all, they list RX Super for the engine, and if you look at the notes down the bottom list Syntrans for the gearbox for severe service ;)
RX-Super is a much better oil IMO than their other two prime recommendations.

The diff oils are as per Pete's original suggestions, (actually it hadn't carried from the t/case list ) and Castrols suggestion of VMX-M in the t/case is something you'd get away with in a really cool climate but it's a lesser grade viscosity wise than Land Rover recommend and not one I'd consider at all.

Vlad, there are plenty more oils out there that sort of fit the criteria, plenty more that are even better than I've listed, that's why I said way above it gets confusing listing oils.

[VladTepes]

Thanks Rick - yep I missed the RX Super.. does it only come in a tin or something rather than a pour bottle ? What gives there?

I remain confused (not hard to do really) but I must say thatthis thread is very helpful for me as otehrwise I;d be totally in the dark as to which to use. Feel free to PM me and tell me whjat you use in a 300Tdi engine ;)

Cheers

[rick130]

Vlad, what brand can you get the most easily with the best pricing ?

[jiri_j]

Hello guys,

thank you for this beautiful list. However, my understanding was that for LT230 one can use any 75W90 GL-4 gear oil. On the list there is mainly pure GL-5 oils recommended. Is it safe to use GL-5 only for LT230?

Hope someone experienced will find a minute to answer :-)
Thanks!
Regards
Jiri

[Bombardier]

Classic little insect/ant!@!!!

Had a couple of goes at wiping it off the screen.

Well done!

[84 rangie]

Could anyone please tell my what oil to put in my schuler ffrr transfer case. Thanks.

[Disco_Balls]

Sorry to dig up an old bone...

Supercrap have a 10ltr NULON 15W-40 API CI-4/SL on special ... $54

Thinking of giving that a whirl, any thoughts or experience with this oil?

Just on a side note, is a ryco filter sufficient, given that I'll be doing oil and filter at 5000ks? Ive never owned a diesel to have to worry about what I need to use, so any recommendations are appreciated :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

D1 or D2?

[Disco_Balls]

D1 96 vintage 268k

[toc_bat]

hi Rick,

I read with interest your oil posts, I have a question though, why would the rear diff cover, whether cast iron or not change the oil one would use? Or is the cast iron cover associated with different diff components?

bye

[rick130]

hi Rick,

I read with interest your oil posts, I have a question though, why would the rear diff cover, whether cast iron or not change the oil one would use? Or is the cast iron cover associated with different diff components?

bye

A Salisbury 8HA runs a lot hotter for a given load/speed than a Rover diff as it's quite a high hypoid design.

The aftermarket heavy duty cast covers are around 8mm thick iron so don't transfer heat very well compared to a pressed steel cover or an aluminium one.
This makes the diff run even hotter as it can't dissipate heat as fast as an OE one.

Example. (and I'm pulling the running temps out of my posterior but having been stupid enough to touch a Sals diff with a tin cover after about two hours of high speed use and leaving skin behind, they get hot ;) )

Say you had Castrol EPX 80W-90 in the diff with a standard pressed steel cover and on a stinking hot summers day you were towing 2 tonne and the diff oil temp hit 80*C.

At 80*C that oils kinematic (actual measured) viscosity is 25.6 cSt.

You now shave the bottom of the diff for more clearance and need (want) to install a cast cover for protection and stop oil leaks. (the standard ones with the bottom lip removed leak terribly and can peel back like a sardine tin on rocks. Not good out in the middle of nowhere)

The new cover can't dissipate the heat near as well so the diff is running at 100*C in the same conditions (probably a gross exaggeration) but you filled it this time with Castrol SAF-XA which is an 80W-140 diff fluid.

At 100*C SAF-XA measures 29cSt so you have another 5*C up your sleeve before the diff oil becomes thinner than what you were running previously.

[toc_bat]

rick, thanks very much for a very informative post, bye

[jakeslouw]

This thread doesn't discuss the best oil for the LT85?

What about Castrol BOT 402 Synthetic 75W-85?

• Excellent cold flow properties combined with balanced frictional characteristics.
• Excellent synchroniser performance and maintained frictional properties during lifetime.
• High shear stability.
• Excellent thermal and oxidative stability.
• Temperature reduction through reduced friction.
• Good anti-pitting behaviour
• Good seal compatibility.
• Free from chlorine and heavy metals.

[rick130]

The problem with BOT 402 is that we know absolutely nothing about it, (a decent TDS doesn't exist, to my knowledge) it costs an extortionate amount of money, and the 'claims' for it are the same as for all other good synthetic lubes on the market.

Example.
Castrol's excellent Syntrans 75W-85 is a PAO/ester synthetic oil and makes similar claims.
It's also approved for Volvo heavy vehicles, (it carries a Volvo trucking part #) and with oil analysis is claimed to be ok for 400,000km in large trucks. (although 20,000km seems the limit in an R380)

It's also something like 1/4 the price here of the LR exclusive BOT fluid.

If a 75w-90 GL-4 is desired, Syntrans M exists.
This is Eaton-RoadRanger approved and recommended for Rockwell, Spicer, Volvo and Mitsubishi/Fuso HD gearboxes.

[isuzurover]

I use Syntrans in my LT85 and have done for a few years now. The box is holding up well to the 4BD1T (touch wood), despite lots of long distance touring and towing. The function of the synchros improved noticeably once the oil had bedded in.

[fraser130]

Anyway, someone will have to maintain it and update it and the mods have enough on their plates already...


I propose Rick for this position..........

:angel:


Cheers,
Fraser

[jakeslouw]

The info I have found so far on BOT 402 is attached.

[jakeslouw]

I use Syntrans in my LT85 and have done for a few years now. The box is holding up well to the 4BD1T (touch wood), despite lots of long distance touring and towing. The function of the synchros improved noticeably once the oil had bedded in.

I intend dropping an Isuzu 4J in front of my LT85, so that is good news.

[rick130]

Thanks mate.

It's a little thinner than Syntrans 75W-85 @ 100*C and with that Opel approval I'm guessing that's what it was originally brewed for.

There's now four different Syntrans blends here in Australia, one for ZF gearboxes (Syntrans Max) the universal Syntrans 75W-85, Syntrans B for the six speed (Tremec ?) in the turbo Falcon (and IIRC it's about the same viscosity as an ATF. That might be a good one for the LT77) and Syntrans M 75W-90 for the trucks.

[jakeslouw]

I simply cannot find Syntrans M 75W-90 over here.

Not readily available anyway, and not close by.

Syntrax GL5 isn't a problem, but the diffs and TC have been done.

The LT230 already sounds better and the heat generation is much less.

[rick130]

I simply cannot find Syntrans M 75W-90 over here.

Not readily available anyway, and not close by.

Syntrax GL5 isn't a problem, but the diffs and TC have been done.

The LT230 already sounds better and the heat generation is much less.

FWIW Castrol used to be a bugger for using different names in different markets too and the same name for something different.

eg. Syntrax here was/is a full synthetic PAO/ester GL4/5 transaxle fluid and in the UK the product with the same name was only a semi-syn/not near as good fluid, possibly very similar to our Multitrax 75W-90.

[goingbush]

found a 20l drum of PEAK 5w30 Full Synth $188.00 at the local AutoOne
never heard of it - writing on the tin suggests it might almost be OK for a TD5 / Puma ?? But if its good oil hard to pass up @ that price.

hopefully its not a one off

can't find anything on the net about it.
opinions ??

apologies for the quality image taken with my phone
http://goingbush.com/landy/peak.jpg

[rick130]

I've been buying Penrite Diesel SP (now re-named Enviro + 10W-40 which is an E4/E6/E9 oil, ie. a heavy duty diesel oil, not petrol/dual rated and I hope to God it's still as robust as Diesel SP otherwise I'll have to find a new oil) for $165 which is a walk in off the street price.

I'd trust a low SAPS API CJ-4/ACEA E4/E6/E9 oil in a TD5 as they have balanced the lack of phosphorous/zinc with better/more exxy anti-wear/EP chemistrickery, but I wouldn't use a low SAPS petrol oil like that Peak oil with a unit injector engine.
There's been a few cam issues over the years with low EP oils like the ILSAC GF-4 10W-30 Mobil 1

Just my opinion.

[isuzurover]

I have some interesting graphs here I need to digitise one day.

They show the change in engine oil viscosity in diesels - mainly due to soot loading.

I also have graphs from a 12 year french study using canola-based biodiesel which shows that fuel dilution when using biodiesel almost perfectly compensates for the viscosity increase due to soot loading...

[rick130]

I have some interesting graphs here I need to digitise one day.

They show the change in engine oil viscosity in diesels - mainly due to soot loading.

I also have graphs from a 12 year french study using canola-based biodiesel which shows that fuel dilution when using biodiesel almost perfectly compensates for the viscosity increase due to soot loading...

What I was warned with that though is that you are depleting the add pack and so increasing wear.

What soot condemnation limits were they using Ben ?

I never had any measurable increase in viscosity with the Patrol from soot, even back in the 500ppm sulphur days, although Terry Dyson who did my analysis wasn't happy with the absolute soot levels @ 10 and 15,000km with the Tdi, reckoning they were too high for the milage and hence making an impact on wear.

[isuzurover]

What I was warned with that though is that you are depleting the add pack and so increasing wear.

What soot condemnation limits were they using Ben ?

I never had any measurable increase in viscosity with the Patrol from soot, even back in the 500ppm sulphur days, although Terry Dyson who did my analysis wasn't happy with the absolute soot levels @ 10 and 15,000km with the Tdi, reckoning they were too high for the milage and hence making an impact on wear.

The study reported no measurale adverse effects after 12 years on canola based FAME. Some engines from the diesel and RME groups were pulled down and inspected for wear with no significant differences.

Oil change intervals appear not to be based on soot. The study states that oil change intervals were 7500/10000 km for IDI light passenger/light utility vehicles, 20000 km for commonrail vehicles, and it seems 20000 km typically for HVs. (though they must have let some go to 35000-38000 km as that is how high the graphs go. Average soot content when oil was analysed varies between 0.3 and 2%.

On your soot, it is irrefutable that soot increases viscosity, as has been proven in our own and other studies which have added soot to clean engine oil. However, this can be offset by issues like fuel dilution (in the BD case), and viscosity decrease in the oil during use/aging - however this is supposed to be rare. We have "artificially aged" RX Super in the lab (without adding soot) and had the viscosity decrease. This is reported to be due to breakdown in the some of the components/additives in the oil.

[rick130]

Multigrade oils will shear, it all depends on the viscosity of the base oils and type and quality of the viscosity index improver's used.

As an example, older M1 0W-40 was known to sometimes shear to an xW-30 in 'normal' use in car engines.

Thickening from soot is also an oxidation process, so TBN, base oils and the entire additive package also play a huge role in how quickly an oil will thicken.
It's why the premium syn oils can go over 100,000km in truck engines yet the premium mineral based brews like RX Super are maxed out at around 30,000km.

I was using a 5W-40 oil at the time and would have to try and dig up the old tests to see what it ended up.

[isuzurover]

Multigrade oils will shear...

...


Thickening from soot is also an oxidation process, so TBN, base oils and the entire additive package also play a huge role in how quickly an oil will thicken.....


I am talking about pure mechanical properties, i.e. oils that have never been subjected to shear forces. So the influence of soot and/or (thermal/oxidative) aging can be examined in isolation from other effects.

So again - in the absence of any thermal, shear or oxidative effects, soot increases oil viscosity. I will scan the graphs when I have a moment and post them.

[rick130]

So again - in the absence of any thermal, shear or oxidative effects, soot increases oil viscosity.

I'm sort of a bit surprised that no one's ever 'proved' that before, I've always taken it as a given ?

[isuzurover]

I'm sort of a bit surprised that no one's ever 'proved' that before, I've always taken it as a given ?

Nothing especially groundbreaking, no, however the rate of increase is important - it is usually not linear.

[Nova]

Hi all, just after a bit of oil advice.

I have been trying to get some Delvac from my fuel/oil supplier that we use for the farm, but he has delivered Mobil Formula S2 10w40 instead. After checking on Mobil's site, this is a semi-synth A3/B3 oil with the following blurb -
Mobil Formula S2 10W-40 is suitable for use in gasoline, LPG and light to medium diesel powered vehicles. It is ideally suited for normal to occasionally severe operating conditions, highway cruising and some high performance applications.

Is this ok for a D2 TD5 (maybe shorter oils changes) or should I go for the "proper" Delvac?

Cheers,
Nova

[rick130]

Penrite have consolidated and changed the names for some of their HD diesel oils and gear/trans/manual trans lubes.

Penrite Diesel SP 10W-40 has now become Enviro + 10W-40 and SIN Diesel has disappeared.
Enviro Plus is an ACEA E4/E6/E9 spec oil, with various manufacturer approvals. (not just 'meets' a spec but has been tested and approved by the engine builder) and is very good heavy duty diesel engine oil.

cut and paste from their site
Trans Gear 75W-80 replaces Manual Gear Oil 75
Trans Gear 75W-90 replaces Transaxle 75, Transaxle 80 and Manual Gear Oil 80

Pro Gear 70W-75 replaces Manual Gear Oil 70
Pro Gear 75W-85 replaces Sin Manual Trans
Pro Gear 75W-90 replaces Sin Gear Oil 75
Pro Gear 80W-140 replaces Sin Gear Oil 80
Pro Gear 85W-110 replaces Sin Gear Oil 110

I wouldn't use Pro Gear 85W-110 in a 4x4 that goes through a lot of water as the add pack is water soluble and it will then degrade the seals, otherwise it's an ideal viscosity for a lot of applications.
IMO there needs to be a lot more xW-110 gear lubes available, it's a great viscosity range and this looks like an excellent mineral based lube.

The ACEA have updated their specs too.
The new ACEA E9 specification has been introduced which requires much better aftertreatment capabilities for the oil compared to E7 oils, with slightly better wear, soot handling and corrosion protection and the same bore polish and piston cleanliness performance as the already excellent E7 oils.

At some stage I'll post up some excellent comparison charts from Lubrizol (the worlds biggest additive supplier) on how the different specs compare and overlap.

[Judo]

Since this has been bumped on the topic of Penrites....

Any reason I shouldn't run Penrite HPR 5 in my 300TDI?

[rick130]

Since this has been bumped on the topic of Penrites....

Any reason I shouldn't run Penrite HPR 5 in my 300TDI?

HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 is a better bet for a Tdi or TD5.

HPR 5 is more a petrol/fuel economy oil, even though it meets the Diesel CF spec.
I get the impression it doesn't have the additive levels of Diesel 5, or can't when Diesel 5 meets the CI-4+ spec, ACEA B4/E7 spec, etc.
These are far more stringent/modern heavy duty diesel oil specifications.

[Judo]

HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 is a better bet for a Tdi or TD5.

HPR 5 is more a petrol/fuel economy oil, even though it meets the Diesel CF spec.
I get the impression it doesn't have the additive levels of Diesel 5, or can't when Diesel 5 meets the CI-4+ spec, ACEA B4/E7 spec, etc.
These are far more stringent/modern heavy duty diesel oil specifications.
Sorry, that's actually what I meant.

Penrite HPR Diesel 5 in my 300TDI.

To be more specific, just wondering what difference this will make to the engine if any? Is running the HPR Diesel 5 better for my 300TDI than running the HPR Diesel 15? That was my theory and why I bought the HPR Diesel 5 over the HPR Diesel 15, but whether or not my theory is correct is another story I was hoping to validate. :)

[rick130]

Sorry, that's actually what I meant.

Penrite HPR Diesel 5 in my 300TDI.

To be more specific, just wondering what difference this will make to the engine if any? Is running the HPR Diesel 5 better for my 300TDI than running the HPR Diesel 15? That was my theory and why I bought the HPR Diesel 5 over the HPR Diesel 15, but whether or not my theory is correct is another story I was hoping to validate. :)

IMO you'd only need Diesel 15 if the engine was getting a little worn and oil pressure was dropping.

Having said that I reckon the oil cooler on a Tdi is inadequate for Australian and South African use, going off hot idle pressures I've seen and others have reported.

[Judo]

IMO you'd only need Diesel 15 if the engine was getting a little worn and oil pressure was dropping.

Having said that I reckon the oil cooler on a Tdi is inadequate for Australian and South African use, going off hot idle pressures I've seen and others have reported.
Sounds fair to me. Interestingly I've had my oil pressure light come on (more like flicker on/off) at idle in summer a few times when the engine drops to very low revs due to the air con. I guess I'll continue on with Diesel 5 and if I get the oil pressure light in hot conditions I'll go back to Diesel 15.

[ATH]

Being a more than average thickhead I'm even more confused than ever after reading this far!
I intend changing the 2.4 Pumas engine oil and have searched all the usual outlets for something with exactly the specifications in the LR handbook but can find nothing as they all seem to have many varied specs.
So it looks like Castrol Edge Titanium A3/B4 5W/30 is as good as I can buy from the retail outlets.
A Castrol distributor here in Perth says that this oil is fine and complies with LRs requirements but he was a bit hesitant.
What do the gurus here think? Will it invalidate my warranty?
Thanks for your advices.
AlanH.

[rick130]

Alan, there's a specific TDCi oil thread, and IIRC the right Castrol oil is Magnatec Professional A5 5W-30.

It is so bloody confusing these days as each light diesel manufacturer now has their own oil spec instead of just requiring a standard industry spec.

Here's the thread, http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137518-best-engine-oil-puma.html

[ATH]

Thanks Rick. Just read the whole of that thread and admit it's still confusing....to me anyway.
I'm inclined to go with what I've got until the next service 80K and chat with the stealer as to what they really use.
Nowhere I've been can I get this Castrol Pro CI 5W/30 oil.
Castrol say the Edge Fully Synthetic is for the type of engine the Puma has but with all these variuos specs for this or that it's madness.:D
Cheers all.
Alan.

[doshy]

Hi all, currently have my Tcase out of my 300tdi disco to replace seals. A local landy mechanic said that I should run ATF fliud in the Tcase for better lubrication.
I have not seen this suggested before.
Peoples thoughts please?

Regards Phil

[uninformed]

Hi all, currently have my Tcase out of my 300tdi disco to replace seals. A local landy mechanic said that I should run ATF fliud in the Tcase for better lubrication.
I have not seen this suggested before.
Peoples thoughts please?

Regards Phil


If I remember correctly, I think they may be the recommendation for the R380 Gearbox in front of the T/Case in 300Tdi's. Wait for comformation either way

[rick130]

Hi all, currently have my Tcase out of my 300tdi disco to replace seals. A local landy mechanic said that I should run ATF fliud in the Tcase for better lubrication.
I have not seen this suggested before.
Peoples thoughts please?

Regards Phil

Naa, I'd use a 75W-90.

75w-90 is what has been used since 1998 from the factory too.
ATF also doesn't have the level of extreme pressure and anti-wear additives that a GL5 gear oil has either, not that the gears stress the oil too much anyway, but the LT230 does see some pretty high temps in use tucked away as it is with a hot exhaust inches away.

[Kidbeen]

I own a 1995 Defender 130. When I purchased it the previous owner recommended the oils in the attached photo for the engine and gearbox. I can't see any recommendation for these oils at all in the thread. Are they now superceded?

I understand though that changing to other brand oils in vehicles is not a wise move. Is that fact or fiction?

[rick130]

I understand though that changing to other brand oils in vehicles is not a wise move. Is that fact or fiction?

Total fiction.
Buy the best oil you can afford that's readily available.
I prefer at a minimum an API CI-4+/ACEA C4/C6/C7 oil.

The R380 g/box can be a little finicky.
If you're happy with the shifting you can stick with a Dex III spec. ATF and change it every. 10,000km but...

The factory revised the oil spec in '96 to MTF94, which is a 75W-80 GL4 manual trans fluid.
Quite a few have found Castrol Sytrans 75W-85 to be a better/more suitable for Australia and much more available fluid, especially if you are getting notchy shifting and bearing/gear rattle at higher ambient temps.
I'd still change this at 20,000km even though it's a trick full synthetic. The R380 seems to be really hard on fluid.

My all time favourite is Motul Gear 300, but it is silly $$, and most people refuse to use it as it's a 75W-90, but it works really well in my experience.
Due to its crazy high viscosity index, it's actually thinner than Syntrans at 0°C....

[Kidbeen]

Total fiction.
Buy the best oil you can afford that's readily available.
I prefer at a minimum an API CI-4+/ACEA C4/C6/C7 oil.

The R380 g/box can be a little finicky.
If you're happy with the shifting you can stick with a Dex III spec. ATF and change it every. 10,000km but...

The factory revised the oil spec in '96 to MTF94, which is a 75W-80 GL4 manual trans fluid.
Quite a few have found Castrol Sytrans 75W-85 to be a better/more suitable for Australia and much more available fluid, especially if you are getting notchy shifting and bearing/gear rattle at higher ambient temps.
I'd still change this at 20,000km even though it's a trick full synthetic. The R380 seems to be really hard on fluid.

My all time favourite is Motul Gear 300, but it is silly $$, and most people refuse to use it as it's a 75W-90, but it works really well in my experience.
Due to its crazy high viscosity index, it's actually thinner than Syntrans at 0°C....
Thanks. So in layman terms what Brand for the Engine do you recommend? What one do you use?

[Pub247]

Whats peoples thought on Penrite HPR Diesel 20-60. This summer heat has shown i suffer from extremely poor oil pressure in 100c (engine temp) conditions like 7psi hot idle. I was thinking of running it in summer then switching back to 15-40 in winter. And yes, i have almost half a million k's on my 300tdi

[rick130]

Whats peoples thought on Penrite HPR Diesel 20-60. This summer heat has shown i suffer from extremely poor oil pressure in 100c (engine temp) conditions like 7psi hot idle. I was thinking of running it in summer then switching back to 15-40 in winter. And yes, i have almost half a million k's on my 300tdi

I'd replace your big ends. ;)
Generally they need doing around 280,000km.

20W-60 is just miles too heavy unless the engine is really tired and loose.

[rick130]

Thanks. So in layman terms what Brand for the Engine do you recommend? What one do you use?

Seriously, whatever the best deal you can get on something from one of the big players sporting at least one of the specs I listed above will be fine.
Just don't exceed 10,000km, and if you do short trips and/or stop/start city driving bring the oil change interval right back.

The Tdi only has a smallish sump and it runs hot, as IMO the oil cooling is inadequate.
Even premium full synthetic heavy duty diesel oils that are ok out to 100,000km in interstate trucks are pretty much toast by 17,000km in a 300Tdi.