Machine shop may be closing down

[Disco_owner]

I heard that from one of the teachers the other day , NAVY didn't renew their contract for 4 more years so the machine shop might be closing down .arrrrrrrrgh.

what are we sposed to do now ???:mad: the guva-ament doesn't want any skilled people here in australia anymore >>>>>>

I always look forward to going to the fitting & machining workshop and doing stuff will all the mates I've made in there throughout the years.:(:(:(:(

[Disco_owner]

may be I should have posted this in the Soapbox :angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Maybe there will be some machines going cheaply in the northern districts quite soon! I've got a garage.

[Disco_owner]

Maybe there will be some machines going cheaply in the northern districts quite soon! I've got a garage.


that's no fun :angel:

we can't all fit into your garage:p

[Catmatt]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(

[Bigbjorn]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(

I worked for a private sector contractor on one of the Melbourne's refits at Garden Island about 1968. Garden Island was a rest home for tired bludgers. I don't think any of the civilian Dept. of Navy staff had done a full day's work since they started there. Some actually did nothing other than take around betting cards, lunch orders, social club business, etc. Service personnel were pretty thin on the ground after lunch, skiving off to pubs and clubs.

[Tank]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(
Cockatoo Island turned out some of the best tradesmen in it's era, my Missus and I worked there for a number of years, she in the office and me as a rigger in both the Boiler shop and Turbine shop but mostly on the Submarines, broke my heart to see the place destroyed, Regards Frank.

[Bigbjorn]

Cockatoo Island turned out some of the best tradesmen in it's era, my Missus and I worked there for a number of years, she in the office and me as a rigger in both the Boiler shop and Turbine shop but mostly on the Submarines, broke my heart to see the place destroyed, Regards Frank.

Codocks did turn out good tradesmen. However the place was riddled with archaic work practices, demarcation to the point of stupidity, grace and favour jobs, extreme militancy etc. All of which contributed to its ultimate demise.

I reckon in the hands of a competent private sector heavy engineering corporation, Cockatoo could have turned out twice the work in half the time with a third of the staff.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
I reckon in the hands of a competent private sector heavy engineering corporation, Cockatoo could have turned out twice the work in half the time with a third of the staff.Wasn't it "Vickers Cockatoo Island Shipyard" and therefore a private enterprise?

Maybe not competent!

[Bigbjorn]

Wasn't it "Vickers Cockatoo Island Shipyard" and therefore a private enterprise?

Maybe not competent!

Originally government and the work practices became set in stone. Vickers were not competent as their pommieland post-war history clearly shows. Bit like Evans Deakin shipyard in Brisbane. Only times they ever made good profits was on government "cost plus" work.

[Catmatt]

While both Islands did produce some of the best trade personnel (Thanks Tank :D) - I will be the first to acknowledge the IR problems that CoDock suffered as well as the strong wharfie demarcation issues.

Garden Island was just as bad if not worse!- I was part of the engineering crew settling the Melbourne into dry dock not long after the Queens Silver Jubilee trip (1977).
When she was settled and the dock was drained, we were the 1st down and took the opportunity to 'souvenir' some of the dozens of fish left stranded in the now near empty dock.

The wharfies promptly walked off the job and pulled a snap 24 hour strike because...........The fish were their fish and it was deemed to be demarcation that service personnel could remove fish from union run property. :confused:

We received the standard warning and handed the fish back (After disinfecting them with Foo-Foo :D)

It really was a battle field in the dockyards most days but militant unionism aside - a brilliant place to increase your skills!!

BTW - I went on the gain an engineering degree and still work with Defence (Non uniform)

[Bigbjorn]

Federated Ship's Painters and Dockers, most likely, not Waterside Workers Federation. Different unions and different jobs. Dockies were hard men who did dirty, heavy work, no security of employment, all were casual, and very protective of their jobs and their perks. They virtually controlled the dockyard as far as ships in dock went. Known to provoke a strike if one of them had a good thing at the races and they wanted to attend.

I recall on the Melbourne in 1968 the dockies would take over a compartment, install power, refrigerator, and telephone and bring in matresses for an afternoon nana nap. No one would lift a finger in protest.

[Catmatt]

Dockies were hard men who did dirty, heavy work, no security of employment, all were casual, and very protective of their jobs and their perks. They virtually controlled the dockyard as far as ships in dock went. Known to provoke a strike if one of them had a good thing at the races and they wanted to attend.:eek:

Hard dirty work - you've gotta be kidding me (3 different trades unions to move a hawser:eek: due to demarcation)

No security of employment - you've gotta be kidding me...the waiting list to get a job on the wharfs those days was 2 years minimum:eek: - and that was only if you had family connections working in the 'trade' and you were set for life once you were in!

Dockies, Waterside Workers etc were all painted by the same brush......No disrespect meant at all but I saw it all 1st hand and shook my head in disbelief when as you say - "No one lifted a finger in protest"...... The stop work delays literally crippled the Australian and merchant Navies. No wonder we moved to the "Suzi Side Party" in Hong Kong where ship side work that took 9 months in Sydney or Melbourne (Remember the blood bath of Londsdale?) would be done in as many weeks!! And was good quality at a 1/4 of the costs.

For those of you reading this - the "Suzi Side Party" was an Australian nick-name for female dock yard workers who toiled harder than males and were so proud of their work. I have photos but on print, not digital so cant post them!

[Bigbjorn]

Hard dirty work - you've gotta be kidding me (3 different trades unions to move a hawser:eek: due to demarcation)


!

So you never stood under a ship in a drydock and hand scraped the bottom of weed, mud, barnacles, with a scraping spade and all the crap falling down on you? Never had to clean a compartment on a merchant ship that had contained petroleum or chemicals? Several dockies died doing this in Melbourne. Cleaned the bilges on one of those ever so clean and hygienic flag of convenience ships? Sat in an exhaust port of a ship's main engine with an angle grinder decoking the port and the greasy black muck blowing all over you? Ever rolled on poisonous and carcinogeneous anti-fouling after scraping the bottom? Dockies did all this and more. The work output from the government dockyards was because management would not take control and insist on a days work. Private sector ship repair companies did insist on a day's work and got it.

Before containerisation wharfies manhandled cargo. Try working on the coal wharf near Balmain where coal was shoveled into baskets and carried by men on their backs. The baskets weighed 50 pounds empty. Try doing an eight hour shift manhandling bags of grain or wool bales. Ever heard of the "long carry" as the bagged sugar job in North Qld. ports was called? These ports had long jetties because of the shallow inlets and the tides. Wharfies in most of these ports carried 140 pound bags of raw sugar on their shoulders from the shed down the jetty to the ship. Few enjoyed a long retirement. They tended to die first. The ever so generous employers actually reduced the weight of a bag of raw sugar from 224 pounds pre-WW2 to 140 pounds. The smaller bag required one less man on a gang. The big bag needed two men to lift it onto a man's shoulder for the long carry.

Until the agreement was reached over onset of containerisation about 1968, all wharfies were casuals. Insufficient ships meant no work and no pay. They did not receive holiday pay or long service leave and were allowed five days sick leave per annum. Permanency and what other workers regarded as normal award conditions came with containerisation.

Dockies were still casuals until they merged with the Maritime Union.

[Disco_owner]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(


nope....I was actually referring to the Fitting & Machining shop at Meadowbank TAFE.;)

there is a few of us that hang out at nights and are quite keen to learn the trade,this may not come as a surprise but the group that I tend to hangout with are a lot more interested than some of the young guys which turn up during the daytime.

[bobslandies]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(

HMAS Nirimba closed in the mid 1990s. Schofields Aerodrome was also closed. Great shame and loss of TWO resources. Now the "Nirimba Education Precinct".

Bob

[Tank]

Dockies were hard men who did dirty, heavy work, no security of employment, all were casual, and very protective of their jobs and their perks. They virtually controlled the dockyard as far as ships in dock went. Known to provoke a strike if one of them had a good thing at the races and they wanted to attend.:eek:

Hard dirty work - you've gotta be kidding me (3 different trades unions to move a hawser:eek: due to demarcation)

No security of employment - you've gotta be kidding me...the waiting list to get a job on the wharfs those days was 2 years minimum:eek: - and that was only if you had family connections working in the 'trade' and you were set for life once you were in!

Dockies, Waterside Workers etc were all painted by the same brush......No disrespect meant at all but I saw it all 1st hand and shook my head in disbelief when as you say - "No one lifted a finger in protest"...... The stop work delays literally crippled the Australian and merchant Navies. No wonder we moved to the "Suzi Side Party" in Hong Kong where ship side work that took 9 months in Sydney or Melbourne (Remember the blood bath of Londsdale?) would be done in as many weeks!! And was good quality at a 1/4 of the costs.

For those of you reading this - the "Suzi Side Party" was an Australian nick-name for female dock yard workers who toiled harder than males and were so proud of their work. I have photos but on print, not digital so cant post them!
In the 5 years or so I was at Cockatoo I only ever lost 2 days to strikes, both times instigated by Painters and Dockers and both times over Asbestos, the navy personnel became scabs and shovelled out the loose asbestos. As for hard dirty work, I know of at least 13 P&D's that died from asbestosis (spelling), and see what Brian wrote above, the worst strikes I ever encountered was at Yallourn W powerstation in Vic, spent more time on strike than I actually worked over a 6 month period.
Don't kid yourself about why ship repairs and building went overseas, it was cheaper, 10,000 coolies working in one shipyard for $20 a week and food and board, how the **** can any industry in Australia compete with that.
If you want to know about ridiculous practises read on, the Navy left ship repair trades for dead. We were working on the Melboune tied up at Garden Island, we had the stern winches stripped down with all the new parts set out on tarps on the deck ready to be fitted, went to lunch, when we got back all the parts (thousands of dollars worth) were gone. Asked one of the Navy blokes and he said there was an inspection and they were ordered to heave everything over the side, which they did. Or what about ten or twelve Navy boys down on their knees scrubbing the **** out of the vinyl tiles on the floor while 10' behind them were a couple of P&D's jack hammering them up, the biggest ****-up at Cockatoo and Garden Island was the Navy. Cockatoo's biggest other problem was that the majority of the machinery and equipment was owned by the Public Works Dept., getting anything repaired or replaced was a joke, e.g. the large electric crane on the main drydock had the electrical cable wheel that rolled up and laid out the cable which powered the crane inoperative, instead of PWD alowing it to be repaired they ordered that an electrician be appointed to walk along side of this crane and make sure that the crane wheels didn't run over the power cable, all shifts, this had been going on for years when I first started there and it was still like it when I left, imagine what the wages for that electrician would have come to, they could have bought a new crane for christ sake. Regards Frank.

[Redback]

Are you referring to the old RAN apprentice school at Quakers Hill?
I did my time there before being posted to Garden Island and actually worked at Cockatoo Island when it was still a working dockyard....

Great days those days and brilliant for young people to obtain a complete technical trade background that prepared you for a life of skill sharing and quality work.

As you point out - our skill and trade base is going downhill and I lament the situation where companies prefer to outsource to O/S providers rather than train our next batch of apprentice's:(

I used to ride on the motocross track there, a couple of the guys were in our club (Northern Districts MCC)

[Catmatt]

In the 5 years or so I was at Cockatoo I only ever lost 2 days to strikes, both times instigated by Painters and Dockers and both times over Asbestos, the navy personnel became scabs and shovelled out the loose asbestos. As for hard dirty work, I know of at least 13 P&D's that died from asbestosis (spelling),


Yes I was a Navy 'scab' and remember the asbestos clean up well. I was also part of the delagging crew for 6 months working shifts during the night. We had white overalls and paper masks supplied......and that's it!:eek:

I'm on the national asbestos register and still have a bi-annual lung function test and will til I die. Fortunately I have no symptoms of mesothelioma although three of my mates have all died from it or asbestos related lung diseases:(

I don't wish to debate the flaws of poor work practises or militant unionism at the navy docks on this general chat forum....particulary as they occured over 40 years ago. I'm just glad that Tank, Brian and myself are still here and able to enjoy a better lifestyle!;)

[Bigbjorn]

Asbestos used to be shipped in bulk in general cargo ships loaded loose in the hold bottoms and general cargo loaded on top. Wharfies unloaded the asbestos by shovelling into large sling bags. The dust levels would get so extreme that visibility was only a few feet. No safety equipment whatsoever was supplied. Some men would tie a handkerchief over the nose and mouth. Some stevedoring companies required the wharfies to bring their own shovels!

[Catmatt]

So.....we've both worked in dry dock underneath the old carrier getting covered in unimaginable filth and, removed raw asbestos.....

Me in uniform - you as a wharfie. Kinda have a common path regardless of our employment differences don't we?;)

Fortunately neither of us were involved in the RAAF reseal-deseal process eh:twisted:

[Tank]

I have to apologise for using the word "scabs", it wasn't the Sailors I was referring to, they were only obeying orders, it was their officers, the incident I was refferring to (asbestos) was on the refit of the boilers on the HMAS Supply.
Another incident that ****ed me off and still does was refitting the boilers and replacing a whole lot of very expensive valves on the HMAS Duchess, when we were pulled off the ship so as it could be towed away and scrapped.
The worst thing the Navy did was move the sub repair to WA, Vickers had a whole bunch of highly trained sub specialists with nothing to do, the only time things ran smoothly was on outside work, Ball mills, Dredge, power station turbine repair.
I remeber one of the P&O ships broke a driveshaft, the spare shaft was on the wharf at Howard Smiths and P&O hired the Titan floating crane to lift it onto the deck of the ship which was going to be towed to Singapore to be fitted, the job could have been done at Cockatoo in less than a week at half the cost of the tow to Singapore, a farce, Regards Frank.
BTW when the Titan got over to Howard Smiths the P&D's went on strike and delayed the job for a week.

[ramblingboy42]

isnt it awesome how everyone turned this thread into garden/cockatoo island debate based on the premise that this was what the original poster was talking about , when he was talking about a completely different place all along . hahahahahahahaha

[Catmatt]

No apology necessary - no offence taken! Sounds like we could spend an enjoyable afternoon swapping stories over a few cleansers :cool:

BTW - I was part of the decommissioning crew for the Melbourne. At least it didn't get new parts fitted only to then be scrapped..

I remember the Duchess fiasco and could only shake my head wondering what idiot in procurement would order - and what idiot in engineering would then authorise the installation of new equipment for a ship bound for the scrap yards..........Certainly wasn't on my watch!

Final point.....it's great to be able to talk about these old war canoes. Duchess, Derwent, Parrammatta - The stately old Vamps now resident in Pyrmont (Darling harbour). At the risk of being melancholy - those were the days!!:D

[Catmatt]

isnt it awesome how everyone turned this thread into garden/cockatoo island debate based on the premise that this was what the original poster was talking about , when he was talking about a completely different place all along . hahahahahahahaha

Thats the appeal of a general chat forum;)

[austastar]

At the risk of being melancholy - those were the days!!:D

Yep, nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

cheers

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Last time I saw the Melbourne she was stuck on a sandbank near the inside shore of Moreton Island, thought we has a new tourist attraction :)
but they got her off and she continued her trip to China, there was a report about 10 yrs ago that she was still in a river 100mls up stream being used as a dormatory ship.;)

I was once told that if she had caught fire the hull would have burnt for 3 weeks before it got to the steel, as there was that much paint on it.


cheers

[Disco_owner]

isnt it awesome how everyone turned this thread into garden/cockatoo island debate based on the premise that this was what the original poster was talking about , when he was talking about a completely different place all along . hahahahahahahaha

you are right , I was referring to a different place. my original point was that by NAVY not signing/ renewing their contract TAFE may be closing down our machine shop, however I'd still like to continue learning.:(

Doesn't the general public have a right of access to the education system anymore ??? I know almost everything comes down to Money but this is obsurd , last semester we were scrounging around for scraps in the big skip outside our building block to practice our welding because the store had run out of practice material ( so we were told ) but as soon as the NAVY signed up again, more material became available and ready for dispersment to other non defence students , doesn't our TAFE fees help subsidise purchase of material for the school? obviously not ., it appears that the Govenment will not subsidise the education system unless there is a massive cash injection. so my original point being, what are (non Defence) students supposed to do then?

I believe there'll only be 2 x choices for machine fitters, either Ultimo or Chullora. that's it.

[Tank]

No apology necessary - no offence taken! Sounds like we could spend an enjoyable afternoon swapping stories over a few cleansers :cool:

BTW - I was part of the decommissioning crew for the Melbourne. At least it didn't get new parts fitted only to then be scrapped..

I remember the Duchess fiasco and could only shake my head wondering what idiot in procurement would order - and what idiot in engineering would then authorise the installation of new equipment for a ship bound for the scrap yards..........Certainly wasn't on my watch!

Final point.....it's great to be able to talk about these old war canoes. Duchess, Derwent, Parrammatta - The stately old Vamps now resident in Pyrmont (Darling harbour). At the risk of being melancholy - those were the days!!:D
The Vampire has a special place in my heart, I seen it launched at Cockatoo, it was the first ship that my father in law surveyed and it was the first Naval ship my Son boarded and is probably the best looking ship in the Navy.
If you get down this way drop me a PM and I'll show you around and catch up on some Cockatoo/Navy talk.
Khos sorry for the hi-jack mate, Regards Frank.

[Bigbjorn]

you are right , I was referring to a different place. my original point was that by NAVY not signing/ renewing their contract TAFE may be closing down our machine shop, however I'd still like to continue learning.:(

Doesn't the general public have a right of access to the education system anymore ??? I know almost everything comes down to Money but this is obsurd , last semester we were scrounging around for scraps in the big skip outside our building block to practice our welding because the store had run out of practice material ( so we were told ) but as soon as the NAVY signed up again, more material became available and ready for dispersment to other non defence students , doesn't our TAFE fees help subsidise purchase of material for the school? obviously not ., it appears that the Govenment will not subsidise the education system unless there is a massive cash injection. so my original point being, what are (non Defence) students supposed to do then?

I believe there'll only be 2 x choices for machine fitters, either Ultimo or Chullora. that's it.

Sounds like theNSW TAFE system is heading down the same slippery slope as the Qld. one. The govt. told TAFE about early 90's to start generating much of their income by introducing courses students would pay well for, particularly overseas students. TAFE responded by drastically increasing charges for a lot of hobby and industrial entry courses, closing many courses, closing many classrooms like the machine and welding shops, introducing classroom only courses in admin, accounting, data processing etc, that did not need expensive plant. Mass redundancies of teachers commenced from about 1993. Morningside TAFE has closed. South Brisbane automotive division has closed. Hobby machining courses are no longer offered. An industrial preparation and entry machining course still exists but I am told students must have a connection with machining in industry to be accepted.

It did not help to have a neighbour such as the woman who lived opposite Yeronga TAFE who carried on a twenty year war with the college about noise and fumes, traffic, & parking. She had her times in court and eventually won forcing the college to close the machine shop, welding and fabrication shop, foundry, and smithy. The smithy was the only one in the Qld. TAFE system. I don't know if it was relocated and to where. Foundry students from Brisbane now have to go to Bremer TAFE at Bundamba. Really great for an apprentice who lives on Brisbane's north side. Two hours travel by trains each way.

[Disco_owner]

The Vampire has a special place in my heart, I seen it launched at Cockatoo, it was the first ship that my father in law surveyed and it was the first Naval ship my Son boarded and is probably the best looking ship in the Navy.
If you get down this way drop me a PM and I'll show you around and catch up on some Cockatoo/Navy talk.
Khos sorry for the hi-jack mate, Regards Frank.

No worries about the hijack frank :D not sure exactly where the thread was Hijacked , it's still here:angel:


Sounds like theNSW TAFE system is heading down the same slippery slope as the Qld. one. The govt. told TAFE about early 90's to start generating much of their income by introducing courses students would pay well for, particularly overseas students. TAFE responded by drastically increasing charges for a lot of hobby and industrial entry courses, closing many courses, closing many classrooms like the machine and welding shops, introducing classroom only courses in admin, accounting, data processing etc, that did not need expensive plant. Mass redundancies of teachers commenced from about 1993. Morningside TAFE has closed. South Brisbane automotive division has closed. Hobby machining courses are no longer offered. An industrial preparation and entry machining course still exists but I am told students must have a connection with machining in industry to be accepted.

It did not help to have a neighbour such as the woman who lived opposite Yeronga TAFE who carried on a twenty year war with the college about noise and fumes, traffic, & parking. She had her times in court and eventually won forcing the college to close the machine shop, welding and fabrication shop, foundry, and smithy. The smithy was the only one in the Qld. TAFE system. I don't know if it was relocated and to where. Foundry students from Brisbane now have to go to Bremer TAFE at Bundamba. Really great for an apprentice who lives on Brisbane's north side. Two hours travel by trains each way.


you've got it in one Brian , only course that will be offered soon are courses that are popular and will be generating the income. Diploma course have become rediculously expensiv. 2 x days ago I tallied up all the units I have completed in the engineering certificate III 9279 and the Tally was 96 units. I only need 76 units to complete the course, and still have no piece of paper to hang up on the back of my Dunny door. the teachers are constanly fighting with the Admin department because no one really cares and for some of the guys not getting the piece of paper means loss of income ,so what does that says about these economic rationalist?

[Tank]

Sounds like theNSW TAFE system is heading down the same slippery slope as the Qld. one. The govt. told TAFE about early 90's to start generating much of their income by introducing courses students would pay well for, particularly overseas students. TAFE responded by drastically increasing charges for a lot of hobby and industrial entry courses, closing many courses, closing many classrooms like the machine and welding shops, introducing classroom only courses in admin, accounting, data processing etc, that did not need expensive plant. Mass redundancies of teachers commenced from about 1993. Morningside TAFE has closed. South Brisbane automotive division has closed. Hobby machining courses are no longer offered. An industrial preparation and entry machining course still exists but I am told students must have a connection with machining in industry to be accepted.

It did not help to have a neighbour such as the woman who lived opposite Yeronga TAFE who carried on a twenty year war with the college about noise and fumes, traffic, & parking. She had her times in court and eventually won forcing the college to close the machine shop, welding and fabrication shop, foundry, and smithy. The smithy was the only one in the Qld. TAFE system. I don't know if it was relocated and to where. Foundry students from Brisbane now have to go to Bremer TAFE at Bundamba. Really great for an apprentice who lives on Brisbane's north side. Two hours travel by trains each way.
It's a shame that TAFE is closing productive work courses for non-productive work courses, we need apprentices and tradesman producing (actually making something) products that creates more employment. Nothing against pen pushers but when they outnumber people actually making/constructing something, then we are certainly on the slippery slope. The policies of the Liberal Party back in little Johnny's day was to move away from a manufacturing society to a society that imported all of our needs, food, cars, whitegoods, etc. etc. and only export minerals and cash crops, similar to countries like Brazil. Not being political here but governments need to bolster Australian manufacturing industries by providing facilities to produce more Tradesman, the country will die without them.
As for TAFE colleges, we have one here in Moruya, but if you're an apprentice mechanic or other trade you have to travel over 200klm's to either Nowra or Canberra and with employers reluctant to let their apprentices travel away for a week (TAFE for a week once every 5 weeks or so), it is very hard for young people to get work locally. I haven't meant to belittle office workers and the like or spark a political debate, but I feel strongly that closures of manufacturing industries, Cockatoo, BHP Newcastle and many many more are undermining Australia's future, Regards Frank.

[Bigbjorn]

employers reluctant to let their apprentices travel away for a week (TAFE for a week once every 5 weeks or so), it is very hard for young people to get work locally. I haven't meant to belittle office workers and the like or spark a political debate, but I feel strongly that closures of manufacturing industries, Cockatoo, BHP Newcastle and many many more are undermining Australia's future, Regards Frank.

Here the apprentices do "block release" of six weeks at TAFE. Many employers have not started an apprentice since this was introduced. Others say that it is as if they rarely see the apprentice, particularly if the shop works a nine day fortnight. Apprentices are entitled to their normal conditions so after six weeks away at TAFE and two weeks back at work they are owed four days off!!!! "Not happy, Jan" says the boss.

We did most of our technical college time in our own time. Two nights a week and one afternoon in the employer's time. Although remote area apprentices then had to travel to a regional TAFE for a four week stint twice a year and board somewhere if there was not a college in their town.

[Bigbjorn]

but when they outnumber people actually making/constructing something, then we are certainly on the slippery slope. The policies of the Liberal Party back in little Johnny's day was to move away from a manufacturing society to a society that imported all of our needs, food, cars, whitegoods, etc. etc. and only export minerals and cash crops, similar to countries like Brazil. Not being political here but governments need to bolster Australian manufacturing industries by providing facilities to produce more Tradesman, the country will die without them.
.

The Runt was a great admirer of Margaret Thatcher. Maggie supervised the destruction of British industry. One of the tactics to defeat the militant unions was to allow the closures of the industries their members worked in. Thatcher moved Britain from a manufacturing and exporting nation to one that provided services like finance and insurance. This resulted in the impoverishment of the North and Midlands, with the concentration of the white collar services industry in the Home Counties. Now in the days of the GFC, Britains financial services industry is stuffed and there is nothing else left to take up some of the slack. A former Glaswegian recently asked me "What do the great North of England and Clyde engineering firms have in common". The answer is "They no longer exist".

We must retain and expand a manufacturing industry in Australia, by import restrictions if necessary. Only a strong manufacturing industry can absorb numbers of unskilled and semi-skilled workers. These will always be with us. Not everyone can complete a university education.

[3toes]

Cuts both ways with an apprentice. Or at least it used to in the seventies.

My father at the time had a mechanical workshop in Brisbane and employeed a number of apprentices. He no problem with the apprentices going to TAFE as they were learning a broader skill set and being independently tested. As he said often enough if you do not train the new generation where will they come from. The self interest angle was that a shortage of any skill will always result in supply and demand pushing up wages costs.

For those old enough to remember in the seventies there was a sudden and significant economic down turn which hit business hard. He had to lay off staff as there was little work. Due to the rules that then applied had to let go experienced qualified tradesmen and keep the apprentices as was not allowed to make them redundant. This he could never understand and almost caused the business to fail. In todays world he would have probably have been advised to flat pack the business to lose this kind of liability.