RRC 3.5V8 Oil Supply Problem - Help

[Michael2]

Hi Guys,

I'm after some advice on properly diagnosing a problem on a 3.5V8 (1988 RRC).

The engine started making a clanking noise corresponding in time to a valve or tappet. I couldn't isolate it to either head, in fact is sounded as if it came from the plenum chamber. The oil level was low, but a top up didn't resolve it.

I removed both rocker covers and the plenum chamber. Nothing looked broken or bent, and with someone cranking the engine, all the valves went up and down normally. However it was very dry and I didn't see any oil squirting up. I squirted some oil over the rocker assemblies before reassembling.

After that the noise got worse, but that can probably be attributed to the fact that I had now broken the vaccuum seal on the plenum chamber and it was sucking in a little air and upping the revs.

I bought some engine cleaner additive and added it, hoping to clear any sludge that may have blocked things up. While the engine ran and warmed up, I poured some ATF mixed with a bit of petrol into the rocker assemblies (from the filler & breather) to keep them lubed and to help thin out any sludge.

When I removed the oil it looked very clean. I repeated this, with a new filter that I had filled with oil, and left the car to idle for 15min.

Again the oil I drained was clean, but when I removed the filter it had been sucked dry!!!

I removed the oil pump and it all looked pretty good and clean. I thought I'd need to replace the pump gears, but I was told that if the pump managed to suck out the oil in the filter, then the problem lies with a blockage elsewhere.

Nex step is to remove the sump and check the pick up. Up can anyone here tell me the route the oil takes through the V8? ie: pick up - pump - filter - galleries - sump (is that correct). If so what will I use to diagnose and rectify the blockage (compressed air, wire, strip and dip....?).

The engine has 460,000km on it and has had 5,000km oil & filter changes with Penrite oil for the last 250,000km.

Thanks in advance for your help.

PS it's my wifes car - so there's some urgency.

[PhilipA]

but I was told that if the pump managed to suck out the oil in the filter, then the problem lies with a blockage elsewhere.


As you say the order is pump -filter.
The filter has a non return valve so not possible for the pump to "suck the filter dry", as the pump does not suck on teh filter it pushes into.
Therefore something is wrong between the pickup and the pump.
My first guess is that the pressure relief valve may be stuck. This is under the big brass nut at the front of the pump. Maybe take out and inspect and give it a polish.
Second guess?- sheared pump drive on the dizzy shaft possibly from wear .
Third?- Filter screen on pickup blocked by crap.
Fourth- main bearing cap has loosened and fallen off , although the filter should be full in that case.
Regards Philip A

[101RRS]

I cannot help with your issues but (sorry if telling you to suck eggs) but as you have pulled bits of the oil pump out you will need to prime it before running it as it will often not suck up the oil if it has drained. You will need to pack Vaseline into all the pump gears to prime the pump.

Garry

[PhilipA]

Micheal, you didn't say whether you had disturbed the pump but if you did then Garrycol x2.

The order is pickup-pump-filter -main galleries-then tappets.

On an engine with 450KK you would have to suspect that a main cap has loosened and the bolts maybe fallen out , as this is a know problem with 3.5s. This would lead to a loss of oil pressure to the rest of the engine.
Or maybe a big end bearing has disintegrated with the same effect. The noise you describe could be a big end.

Does the oil light go out?

If you can get someone to help, pull off the pump end and have someone turn the engine a little. Hold the gears up with you fingers as they may fall out. If they turn it is good. If not the roll pin holding the pump drive has sheared. Of course you would then have to reprime the pump and get a new base gasket , although it would have so much wear anyway that no base gasket might perk it up!

Next cab off the rank is to pull off the sump and have a look and feel of the bearing caps and the oil pickup.

Maybe its something small like the pressure relief valve, but 450KK is a good innings.
Regards Philip A

[Michael2]

Thanks guys.

The pressure relief valve is out, and back in. It all looked quite good and not sticking (either burred or gummy).

I'll check the drive as you suggested Phil, otherwise it looks like the sump is coming off.

The oil pressure switch doesn't seem to be working and I can't remember when the last time I saw it at either start up or post service was.

Thanks for the petroleum jelly reminder guys. I had read up on it last night, but I'd rather be told 10 times than not told at all.

I was hoping we could get another 1,000,000km out of car, so we could give D3's a chance to drop in price and become affordable. I may have to start looking at D2s now.

[bee utey]

Without further dismantling the best way to test the oil pump is to remove the distributor and make a tool to drive the oil pump with a drill. A good spin up with a biggish drill will soon build up pressure if there's nothing else wrong. As said, check the relief valve first.

Following on it is possible that the pickup is damaged if its gasket to the block has failed but that is far less likely than the relief valve sticking open. Removing the sump to take a look is not hard. On that score I once saw a 3.5 in a 109 stage 3 that had so few oil changes in its life that the pick up sat in a huge lump of gunge in the sump, with only one litre of free oil to work with. The new owner thrashed it and it ran out of oil quite quickly. Needless to say this engine came to me wrecked.

Lastly I have heard a rattle in a plenum where if you put your hand on the plenum top, you could feel it clearly. In that case the intake trumpets were so loose they jumped up and down with the vacuum pulses. Easy fix, just expanded them a little and refitted with some loctite.

PS fix your oil pressure switch ASAP. It is useful.

[Michael2]

The sump is off.

It all looks so clean under there. I can see hone marks on the cylinders!!

The big ends all look fine. the was some flat flakey stuff (like hardened sealant) on the bottom of the sump, and a few slithers caught on the pick up mesh, but no sludge and no blockages in the pick up.

I forgot to check the drive on the oil pump. I'll go do that now.

Otherwise, shoud I be using compressed air between the oil pick up and the pump?

[Michael2]

The oil pump drive works.

The trumpets all felt secure when I removed the plenum.

[PhilipA]

I removed both rocker covers and the plenum chamber. Nothing looked broken or bent, and with someone cranking the engine, all the valves went up and down normally. However it was very dry and I didn't see any oil squirting up. I squirted some oil over the rocker assemblies before reassembling.

Oil does not really squirt out from the rocker assemblies. I am always surprised at how dry they seem. So do not think they are not getting oil because of that. I doubt VERY much that you have an oil blockage in a gallery so I wouldn't be blowing air down them as the filter takes out bits down to 20 microns or so which is so small that anything going through would be so tiny it would not block up a gallery.

I still have a problem with the filter being dry. Do you have an aftermarket oil cooler below the filter? as sometimes if the filter non return valve is faulty , the oil can drain into the cooler and oil pump. But in any case the filter will have some oil in it as it sits on an angle.

Was it just after start up that you heard the clattering?

When did you change the oil and filter? If a filter non return valve is faulty it lets the tappets drain back down into the sump.

Get a new oil pressure switch or reconnect the existing one ( as they usually fail ON) and start up and see if the pressure light goes off and how long it takes. Check the bulb by grounding the connector that goes on the switch.
Regards Philip A

[Michael2]

I just got some gaskets, and need to get some vaseline, then I'll reassemble as see how it goes. Maybe it was a priming issue. I got a new pressure switch while I was at it too.

[Michael2]

well, it's reassembled and the noise is still there, after less than a 1min of running the filter again has no oil in it.

The pump seems to work, as there's vaseline coming out the port under the filter, when I remove the filter.

The new oil pressure switch isn't working, so I'll need to check for a blown globe at the dash.

[PhilipA]

Try another filter, as the non return valve should stop any drainback. I still cannot understand how it can be any MORE empty than when you fit it , as you spill any excess over the amount allowed by the angle as you fit it. What brand and number filter is it? Ryco Z89A is the correct one with an anti drainback valve.

Now you have eliminated the oil pump drive, dirty screen, dropped main cap, and maybe a gone big end( maybe that is what was in the sump), I think it gets you back to the pressure relief valve.

Get the oil pressure light working as it will tell you if you have no oil pressure, which is most likely. That I believe is the first thing to do. If you cannot be bothered to fix the bulb in the instrument panel, just rig up a bulb from the battery to the oil pressure light switch.
Regards Philip A

[Michael2]

Thanks Phil.

I used a Z9 with a non return valve originally, and 2nd time around a Z-89 (again with the valve).

I'll try the lamp shortly, I'm currently in the house babysitting.

Does anyone think I should remove the plunger from the pressure relief valve on the side of the pump? I can't see how that would help, but just asking.

[PhilipA]

I don't. My recollection is that high pressure pushes the plunger back against the spring which then opens the bypass.

So you would be opening the bypass all the time hence no oil pressure.

The problem with stuck relief valves is that they push back against the spring then do not move forward again as the pressure drops as the oil heats and thins.
Regards Philip A
Just on the empty oil filter bit. Hopefully no egg sucking advice but you do realize that there are two chambers in an oil filter and the outer chamber feeds into the centre and if you fill with oil it will quickly equalize to the outer. When you remove it there will still be oil between the filter and the housing ( the outer chamber) but maybe none in the centre. The anti drainback valve keeps it in the outer area but it will slowly make its way back to the centre.

[Michael2]

Okay, there's no oil pressure at all, which isolates the problem to either the pump or the pick up.

I idled the car and slowly unscrewed the filter, to see if I would get any spurts of oil, but nothing came.

options are to remove the dizzy and spin up the pump with a drill

remove the sump again and double check the pick up in case it has an air leak.

[CSK]

Nice high KMs, is that 460k on a factory motor? I thought the RV8 was only good for 300k!


Penrite oil huh? What grade/ variety?

[Michael2]

Nice high KMs, is that 460k on a factory motor? I thought the RV8 was only good for 300k!


Penrite oil huh? What grade/ variety?

I used Penrite HPR Gas. When I pulled the sump off I could still see hone marks on the bores and there's been no slop in the dizzy and oil pump drives when I've removed them.

[PLR]

Okay, there's no oil pressure at all, which isolates the problem to either the pump or the pick up.

I idled the car and slowly unscrewed the filter, to see if I would get any spurts of oil, but nothing came.

options are to remove the dizzy and spin up the pump with a drill

remove the sump again and double check the pick up in case it has an air leak.

G`day ,

i`d remove the distributor and check the pin on the pump drive hasn`t sheered . If it has it may grab and not and the reason you see a flow of jelly . The pin on the gear must be ok or it wouldn`t run .

Looked at one in the shed and there is no obvious wear on the gear pin but very obvious wear on the pump drive pin .

Then if not found as you say make a fitting to use a drill to drive the pump . Will need to fill with jelly again for prime though .
Also if you don`t , put some oil in the filter before fitting just to help , in a system that`s workin ok it makes little difference unless left with filter off for awhile .

If you need to remove the sump again check where the pickup bolts to the block and its gasket . I`d take it off and check it for cracks etc for elimination .

I don`t remember if you model has the fitting between the filter and the block for the cooler , if it does i`d check that for piece of mind also .

Cheers
Peter

[Michael2]

Thanks Peter,

I'll remove the dizzy and check the pin in the drive gear. I'm thinking it might turn okay with no load (as seen from under the car with the pump bottom off) due to friction, but then stall under load with a broken pin.

I'm not sure how to access it yet, but will explore the manual. I hope I don't have to pull the sump off again.

[Michael2]

I pulled the dizzy out.

The drive cog and split pins are all okay.

I spun the pump with a drill (made an adaptor) and removed the oil filter to see if anything was being pumped - nothing.

I reversed the drill direction in case I had it wrong, still nothing.

Not sure whether I should pull the pump apart again, or remove the sump.

[PhilipA]

I would remove the sump and have a really good look at the pickup pipe. Only a small crack can stop it sucking. Check the mounting flange connection. Take it out if possible for a good look.

I have to admire your methodical approach. Many would have given up by now. Keep at it and do not burn the car to the ground. Old cars are sent to try us.

You are almost there.
If it looks pristine, then the only possibility is the pressure relief valve.When you pulled it out it should have had a spring inside a hollow plunger with the spring nearest the cap AFAIR. Hope you refitted the same way and checked that the plunger freely travelled to the end of its travel. Maybe worth measuring the depth of the cylinder vs the depth it went in.
Regards Philip A

[Michael2]

Thanks Phil,

I've removed the sump and the pick up looks good. I've cleaned the face that goes to the block on a wet stone block to make sure it's very very flat.

The pressure relief valve was fully pressed as far as the spring would push it. The spring appeared strong and straight and it went back it again. There was no gum and no nicks that might cause it to stick. In fact I've been very impressed by how clean the engine is at the bottom end.

I'll carry out a few more inspections, and then remove the pump again.

I know it's character building, but in the back ground I've got the salary packaging people at work crunching numbers on a D2. Worst case scenario, I can't fix this and I replace a 22 year old V8 with a 7 year old Diesel 7 seater.

I hope I can fix it though.

[Michael2]

The pump and the sump came off again and were put back on again.

I expected it to run okay, but the problem persisted. I removed the oil pressure sender and nothing squirted out.

I left it for a day, to contemplate and consult.

Then I pulled the nut off the pressure release valve, removed the spring, and with a screw driver pushed the plunger in an extra millimeter. That did it! Now I have oil pressure. A quick check by backing off the filter resulted in a litre of oil on my driveway! Now to double check the oil level and hope that the rattles were not terminal, but can be soothed with some oil.

[bee utey]

Now everyone reading this thread will understand what "relief valve is STUCK" means. It takes a firm hand to shift it when the spring won't. Been there, done that!

[PhilipA]

Congratulations. Tiny simple things can get you.

You should now either get a new plunger and spring and dress the cylinder lightly with a small hone or wrap some 600 /800 wet and dry around a dowel as a flapper . ie cut a slot through the dowel and insert the wet and dry and wrap it around .

If you do not replace the plunger , you should also dress it with fine wet and dry. I would concentrate on the shoulders of the plunger and round them a little . Then polish the plunger with auto cutter to get as mirror smooth a surface as possible.

I think any swarf will be caught by the filter or you could pressure it up with the filter off for a second.
Regards Philip A