disco owners need deep pockets T. or F.

[royboy]

Hi all
yes Im the person that was asking about the rangies and the reason for that was,
I have been told by many owners of new and second hand discos that they are a real pain in the you know what when it comes to reliability, and the cost to keep on the road, not to mention fuel economy, thats why I started looking for a rangie.
So now the question is,
Do you need deep pockets to keep the discos on the road?
And yes I know this subject has probably been covered before and I should do my own search,
but I do love a good debate

cheers royboy

[bee utey]

False! You just need years of experience, a well-equipped home workshop and lots of patience and spare time. Hardly anything really.:o

[pawl]

Nah, not true (for me anyhow). Spend less time under the bonnet than I did on my 82 Rangie which was possessed by the Lucas gremlins and consumed fuel like it had a hole in the tank. My disco has 320,000km on it now, runs on the smell of an oily rag(300tdi of course) and is the most reliable car I've ever owned. I service it myself and have done since I bought it 11 yrs ago. I don't spend a lot of time on it, I only service it when I have to, every 10,000km oil/filters (Frantz bypass filter 2,500km, because it's a dirty diesel). Diffs G/box 40,000km (I use synthetic, last couple of years) good coolant 2yrs (used to do every 12mths but just lazy now) valves 20,000km, timing belt @100,000, yeah I know every one says you must change it at 60,000 but I've never had trouble in 300,000km, you just use the revised tension. So just the usual really, in fact it is far cheaper to service than wife's Astra, although she takes it to a mechanic.

[BigJon]

In my opinion, Range Rover Classics and Discovery Is are "enthusiasts vehicles".

I think if you aren't prepared to do your own maintenance and repairs then they will cost you a small fortune at a mechanic.

[royboy]

well said BigJon

[d2dave]

One of the big problems if you take it to your local mechanic is the cost of parts.

Here is one example. As you can see I live at Tatura which is near Shepparton. When my power steering pump failed I went and saw a power steering specialist in Shepp. He quoted me $600 for a new pump.

Now, had I taken the Disco to a local mechanic he more than likely would have gone to the same bloke and got a pump for $600 and charged me $700 plus labour.

Being a retired mechanic and knowing where to source parts I got a brand new pump delivered to my door from Melb for $220. This was a none genuine pump but I could have got a genuine one for $250.

I doubt you could get a new one for a Pootrol or a Toymota anywhere nere $220/$250.

Dave.

[PAT303]

In my opinion, Range Rover Classics and Discovery Is are "enthusiasts vehicles".

I think if you aren't prepared to do your own maintenance and repairs then they will cost you a small fortune at a mechanic.

I do agree with you but then again buying a 20 year old vehicle and expecting it to run trouble free is living in a dream world.The biggest advantage they have is that they aren't full of rust like similar aged jap vehicles. Pat

[royboy]

I do agree with you but then again buying a 20 year old vehicle and expecting it to run trouble free is living in a dream world.The biggest advantage they have is that they aren't full of rust like similar aged jap vehicles. Pat

this is very true, being on a pension and all, and unlike those that have eagles for bosses we have to live on a sparrows fart and can only afford a 20 year old vehicle with all there faults, I am lucky I can do of my own maintenance, I just need to source cheap parts.

[Ace]

Other than general servicing I have had to spend very little on reliability issues. Everything else that has cost me money has been due to wear and tear from off roading. I did put a new engine in mine in January 2009 but that was my fault not the cars, the heater core sprung a leak (well i guess it sort of was the cars, but regular checking would have drawn my attention to the issue and saved the engine) and it overheated.

Since September 2004 i have had to replace a water pump, get the injector pump recondition and replace the fuel lift pump which can be avoided.

The main so called reliability issues that people whinge about are often due to the odd design flaw which is are very cheap to rectify and prevent happening again of because they are worked on by people who have no idea.

For example I have had many owners say to me they are sick of replacing the fuel lift pump cause it breaks all the time. What causes the breakage of the pump is the fact that the line from the fuel filter housing to the pump itself is made of hard plastic and is to short. As the motor moves under load the fitting has pressure put on it from side to side and the fitting breaks and leaks. Pull the line off, got to a auto parts store buy a length of rubber fuel line that is 5cm longer, cut the plastic fittings off and hook the rubber one on with hose clamps (I am talking diesel engines here of course). Problem solved, no more "reliability issues".

Just do your homework and buy one that has been maintained, if you get one that needs some TLC budget accordingly, do your homework on here and fix the problems properly, many mechanics who dont understand them patch the symptoms and dont fix the cause so it keeps coming back and then people get this belief that they are unreliable when they arent.

Matt

[Ace]

this is very true, being on a pension and all, and unlike those that have eagles for bosses we have to live on a sparrows fart and can only afford a 20 year old vehicle with all there faults, I am lucky I can do of my own maintenance, I just need to source cheap parts.

There is a plethora of Land Rover Parts places in Australia for both new and second hand parts, the stigma that land rover parts cost the earth is an urban myth. Diesel engine parts cost more no matter what the engine is and Land rover diesel engine parts and v8 parts are no more expensive than other brands.

[Disco44]

There is a plethora of Land Rover Parts places in Australia for both new and second hand parts, the stigma that land rover parts cost the earth is an urban myth. Diesel engine parts cost more no matter what the engine is and Land rover diesel engine parts and v8 parts are no more expensive than other brands.

And parts from the UK are much cheaper and can usually be delivered in around 5 days.Any part under AU$1000 are duty free into Australia and,in the UK,
VAT free too.

[PAT303]

Toyota and Nissan parts are dearer than LR parts and are needed more often,thats everything from filters to door handles. Pat

[royboy]

thanks fellers
but this isn't going as I thought it would, but dont worry its better.
you see I was just about to go back to the old hj60 diesel cruiser
(if you read my post in bio-diesel you will know why)
but now I starting to think that a disco maybe the way to go.
just a few things though, do I go diesel or duel fuel v8i, manual or auto, and what year model do I start looking for.

royboy

[big guy]

How the heck do we know what you should buy.
Do you want a diesel or a V8?

What suits you better.The last of the Disco 1's are now 12 years old, owning one I can say they cost less or same as any other vehicle to maintain of same vintage.
Problem is, most people with a Ford or Holden of that age do not maintain them as they know their car is soon goung to die and go to heaven.
Actually, a fair bit of research is done on vehicle maintenance and most cars are way less maintained than books recommend.
I guess its a sign of the times and times are tough.

If you buy a cheap car, that is under $10-20k you probably find you pay or on repairs as they are getting on and Yes, machanical moving parts wear.
Less is spend on lease or repayments as you probably own it outright.

On new or later cars you pay lease, shuttle mortgage or whatever other finance you can think of plus depreciation which I guess is off-set by tax reductions but its still money you need and will have to pay.

Cars cost money no matter what, if you want cheap transport, catch a bus, train or ride a bike is my recommendation.

Now, you decide what you want to drive, a Disco, RRc auto or manual--simple really. If you don't like it, sell it and get that Cruiser and spend even more:p

[royboy]

How the heck do we know what you should buy.
Do you want a diesel or a V8?

What suits you better.The last of the Disco 1's are now 12 years old, owning one I can say they cost less or same as any other vehicle to maintain of same vintage.
Problem is, most people with a Ford or Holden of that age do not maintain them as they know their car is soon goung to die and go to heaven.
Actually, a fair bit of research is done on vehicle maintenance and most cars are way less maintained than books recommend.
I guess its a sign of the times and times are tough.

If you buy a cheap car, that is under $10-20k you probably find you pay or on repairs as they are getting on and Yes, machanical moving parts wear.
Less is spend on lease or repayments as you probably own it outright.

On new or later cars you pay lease, shuttle mortgage or whatever other finance you can think of plus depreciation which I guess is off-set by tax reductions but its still money you need and will have to pay.

Cars cost money no matter what, if you want cheap transport, catch a bus, train or ride a bike is my recommendation.

Now, you decide what you want to drive, a Disco, RRc auto or manual--simple really. If you don't like it, sell it and get that Cruiser and spend even more:p

sorry bigguy, I was thinking out loud (in writing) because now I am totally confused, you get way when you get old.
but worry I will sort it out one way or another, price and whats in the market place on the day will no doubt have alot to do with what I end up with.

cheers royboy

[chunk]

Hi Royboy, I had a 95 v8 disco with all the bells and whistles, sold that after 5 years and bought a 98 Tdi diesel poverty pack 17 months ago.

If you want power and speed buy a v8. But you will pay for the privilege 350k's around town and 550 k's on a hwy trip. If you can find one on gas that's a bonus.

If you want economy and reliability buy a diesel they require more regular oil and filter changes than the v8 but at least you save by not having to change plugs, points and do tune up's every few months and fuel consumption is way better about 800 k's per tank.

Things to avoid if you can. Sun roof, ABS, air bags, central locking and electric windows these items are a pain in the arse and expensive to fix although the windows are a relatively easy to fix.

Imo if you are going to but a disco look for a basic 98 model 300 tdi they don't seem to have the problems of earlier models.

Also see if you can find a mechanic like mine ( Mr Fix It at Fairy Meadow ) he lets me buy the parts and then he fits them, saves him chasing around looking for parts and I get the parts at the right price.

[Rayngie]

'but at least you save by not having to change plugs, points and do tune up's every few months'

eh???...who does that?...if anyone does then get rid of the car,

I've had 7 landrovers , 4 rangies ( all v8's ), three discoverys ( two diesel, one v8 ), maintenance costs between the two models were line ball, sure the diesel clearly used less fuel.....major difference was that the Range Rovers were so much more comfortable then Discovery's to drive, always felt that i had to 'work' at driving the Disco's where as the Rangies you just cruised around in...they just felt better for some reason.

Ray

[PAT303]

I really liked my '96 auto V8 with LPG but the ecconomy of the Tdi is hard to go past. Pat

[clubagreenie]

Put it this way, I bought a 2000 D2a year ago for $10k. Insurance valued at $17, could have spent up to $15 on some. Since then have replaced engine (went to 4.6) and rebuilt auto/tfr. Total cost $6k, so I've spent the same as I could have but have a vehicle with new engine and driveline as opposed to a $15k car with second hand running gear. And still valued for more than I've spent. I could see the value in spending less and even though it was sooner than planned, having to rebuild major stuff, I know it's history and how well it's built and maintained.

[royboy]

yep thats what I was talking about,

electrics-windows, central locking, sunroof and the likes,
the average Joe would have no idea on how to fix them, let alone where to start, and the vehicle would have ended up at the dealers for repair (big $$$$). this I can handle as long as I have a wiring diagram.
motor & trans rebuilds, on the other hand, this has become a problem for me since my back injury, sure I have a son, lets call him the muscle and me the brain, the trouble is that the muscle is like a blind deer, the brain knows exactly what to do but the muscle has 'no eye deer' what hes talking about (takes after his mother)
only joking he is a great help most of the time.

[DiscoMick]

On a 15 year old vehicle like mine you would expect some maintenance and things finally wearing out no matter what make of vehicle it was. I don't think Discos are especially expensive overall.
My original radiator lasted 14 years and then only cost $600 to replace and the new brass one should last as long as the original, so you can't fault that. I just replaced the original fuel pump lift hose and it was just a standard rubber hose from any shop.
I'd recommend a 300tdi auto - they're cheap, economical, and go well enough for normal people.

[big guy]

On a 15 year old vehicle like mine you would expect some maintenance and things finally wearing out no matter what make of vehicle it was. I don't think Discos are especially expensive overall.
My original radiator lasted 14 years and then only cost $600 to replace and the new brass one should last as long as the original, so you can't fault that. I just replaced the original fuel pump lift hose and it was just a standard rubber hose from any shop.
I'd recommend a 300tdi auto - they're cheap, economical, and go well enough for normal people.

Yep-Agree and there are plenty out there, there is one in market section right now for $8k. bargain--Ohh and its not mine I just think its cheap good motoring for a car that cost over $50k just over 10 years ago.

[feraldisco]

The main so called reliability issues that people whinge about are often due to the odd design flaw which is are very cheap to rectify and prevent happening again of because they are worked on by people who have no idea.



And that's the thing that makes Land Rovers popular with "enthusiasts" rather than the general motoring public. Yes, you can make most LRs pretty reliable once you know which bits to undertake preventative maintenance/modification on courtesy of the wealth of collective knowledge on this site. However, most people just want a car to drive rather than having their head under the bonnet all the time, and you have to admit, LR do shoot themselves in the foot with some pretty daft design flaws (e.g. oil in wiring loom and oil pump bolt on Td5s...both can be rectified, but the point is that if the designers were doing there jobs right, you wouldn't have to). Toyotas are boring to look at an drive, but they'll tolerate more abuse and less maintenance than a LR (so part of me can understand the original poster considering a HJ60 - nice and simple and reliable although a bit thirsty c.f. LR TDs)

[royboy]

thanks feraldisco,
I have owned 2 LRs 1 swb other long both SllA with the holden conversion, but that was and long time ago now, I got sick and tired of broken axles and broken conversion plates,
I cant remember how many time I had to dive home with a piece of sawn off Axe handle wedge between the gear box and cross member (not to mention axes as well) or on the front diff because I run out of axles.
but I must admit we were bloody ruff on them back then as well.
I doubt that the standard off the floor disco of today would have made it through some of the places we took those old landogs (as they were call back then).
then a mate got a cruiser diesel and it went every where we did but without the breakdown probs the LRs where having.
but hey this was back before the internet and computers took up a complete room, so we had to relied on (what we called close encounters with) other LRs owners that we would bump into on any given day/trip, we would sit around a camp fire and talk problem solving.
since then I have had a mixed bag of 4bs but always remember those camp fires with other LR owners and always a wave you got as you went past. and thats why I am back look for another landog but with a bit more comfort.

[Grumbles]

I think this enthusiasm for our Landrovers with all their foibles is far more than a mere Landrover thing. I suspect our Landrover ownership and enthusiasm [fetish?] is an integral part of our make up with LR ownership a reflection of this. That we as individuals cannot abide being a part of the general mob. Our lives or the way we live our lives and what we own and do is different to the rest of society. We will likely have odd hobbies, a rare breed in the way of a pet and all that we own and the way we think will not be main stream.
We are also more likely to be loners, stubborn, self reliant, independent, not given to the normal community social activities. And deep down we are more likely to mentally fly a southern Confederate rebel flag and whistle Dixie as we drive.
But hmmmm.....why am I here talking to you lot. I've got a Landrover to go and drive......umm....errrr....that is.....as soon it comes out of the workshop.

I wish I was in Dixie, Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land............

[spudboy]

Hi RoyBoy,

Can recommend a Disco 1 for general reliability and 'cheap' motoring. Bought my D1 new in '97 and will probably never sell it. Been very reliable and comfortable. It's no powerhouse (300TDi/Manual) but quite acceptable. Tows brilliantly. It's become my daughters preferred drive so she's angling to get her hands on it full time.....

Whatever you buy - Make sure it's been serviced. V8s do not like missing oil changes (it does bad things to their cams).

Cheers
David

[PAT303]

I'd just add that the issues LR have such as oil in the loom,three amigo's etc aren't just an LR thing.Tojo and Nissan have just as many faults if not more,the difference is that they aren't as willing as LR owners to talk about them.LR owners are the most open minded and straight up people you'll meet anywhere.I have had very good reliability out of my last three new LR's but I go buy the theory of a cent spent on maintenance is a dollar saved on repairs. Pat

[tempestv8]

For me at least, the answer to the original question is a resounding "TRUE".

I have a '99 DII V8 which slipped a cylinder liner after about 9 years of careful maintenance. Not sure why it slipped because the engine wasn't overheated.

Anyway, after $8K, I have a 4.6 V8 with tophat liners. Still a bloody expensive repair for a vehicle which is essentially only worth $10-$12K on the used market.

Not happy, Jan! :mad:

[mrapocalypse]

Hey Roy. The fact is that you are buying a second hand vehicle. If you bought one with a full service history from a proper LR Garage, you are WAY in front. If you have done your research and seen receipts for things that you will learn are design faults like Drive shafts on D2's and rust in alpine windows on D1s then you are even further infront. Myself, I like V8's. Lots of people on here prefer diesel. V8 suits me, Diesel suits lots of others on here.

My advice is get one that has been loved and cared for by a Real Shop, Greame Cooper or Davis in Sydney, Richmond in Vic, MR in Brisbane, the really cool shop in SA with all the 90's, you just cannot do better than a cosseted professionally maintained Land Rover.

And if your second hand 15 year old 4x4 breaks down..... well I mean heck, it's warranty ran out 12 years ago. Just get it fixed and get on with life. Don't go on 4wd Action and bag landies!

You'll never look back and will stay awake at night thinking of all the cool stuff you can do with them like the rest of us tragics on here!

Ian.

[big guy]

For me at least, the answer to the original question is a resounding "TRUE".

I have a '99 DII V8 which slipped a cylinder liner after about 9 years of careful maintenance. Not sure why it slipped because the engine wasn't overheated.

Anyway, after $8K, I have a 4.6 V8 with tophat liners. Still a bloody expensive repair for a vehicle which is essentially only worth $10-$12K on the used market.

Not happy, Jan! :mad:

Ever tired doing a full rebuild or even stroker as you did to a Toyota?

Make a couple of calls and people will mostly laugh. Its very expensive and they do break. Its just that they are more of them so the figures are diluted.

[Disco44]

'but at least you save by not having to change plugs, points and do tune up's every few months'

eh???...who does that?...if anyone does then get rid of the car,

I've had 7 landrovers , 4 rangies ( all v8's ), three discoverys ( two diesel, one v8 ), maintenance costs between the two models were line ball, sure the diesel clearly used less fuel.....major difference was that the Range Rovers were so much more comfortable then Discovery's to drive, always felt that i had to 'work' at driving the Disco's where as the Rangies you just cruised around in...they just felt better for some reason.

Ray

Considering that the D1 Discovery was built on the "classic " Range Rover platform using mostly the classic parts I find that they are line ball with comfort ,handling etc.One thing the D1 never at ant time rolled like the Rangie which was so much at times it could scare the hell out of you.
Remember the old saying..beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

[royboy]

Well I would like to give a big thanks to AULRO and all the members for the response and words of encouragement on this matter.

its good to see that the LR owner of Aust haven't changed a bit in the past 35 years and that I will be proud to once again be driving a LR.

Will it be a disco or Rangie, well that will depend on whats available in the market on that given day.

But at least I now know what I need to look for and where, thanks fellers give your selfs a big pat on the back from me and keep up the great comments.

And I will be sure to post a pic of what ever I end up with.

cheers royboy.

Oh yes, what was the the out come of this pole, well
Imo the answer to- do disco owner need deep pockets T.or F. is
'TRUE'
Why, well I figure that the average joe who has never owned a LR or a 4b would have no idea what was going wrong, and given that they would have had to take them back to the dealer for repair, where it would have cost them a packet.

but thats only my opinion,( I am sure this will be debated) thanks again for your input. cheers RB.

[royboy]

I think this enthusiasm for our Landrovers with all their foibles is far more than a mere Landrover thing. I suspect our Landrover ownership and enthusiasm [fetish?] is an integral part of our make up with LR ownership a reflection of this. That we as individuals cannot abide being a part of the general mob. Our lives or the way we live our lives and what we own and do is different to the rest of society. We will likely have odd hobbies, a rare breed in the way of a pet and all that we own and the way we think will not be main stream.
We are also more likely to be loners, stubborn, self reliant, independent, not given to the normal community social activities. And deep down we are more likely to mentally fly a southern Confederate rebel flag and whistle Dixie as we drive.
But hmmmm.....why am I here talking to you lot. I've got a Landrover to go and drive......umm....errrr....that is.....as soon it comes out of the workshop.

I wish I was in Dixie, Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land............

Mate thats me to a 'T', even the missis said thats you there talking about.

[DiscoMick]

Why would you take a 15 year old Disco to a dealer? There are plenty of Landy specialists around, plus they're really not that complicated. Any decent workshop which actually cares about its customers should be able to look after them without charging ripoff prices.

[clubagreenie]

Ever tired doing a full rebuild or even stroker as you did to a Toyota?

Make a couple of calls and people will mostly laugh. Its very expensive and they do break. Its just that they are more of them so the figures are diluted.

I can qualify that.

$38K on a toyo V8. Mind you wasn't going anywhere near off road. And at 14000 rpm it sounded great. Mind you a 4.7l Lexus V8 with cruiser gbox/tfr in a disco would be my next project bar the $$$

[Grumbles]

Mate thats me to a 'T', even the missis said thats you there talking about.

Glad I have you pegged accurately Roy - wasn't hard really......lol.

Seems to me there is only one question you should be asking your self.

Do you want to be a common "run of the mill" Private in the rebel camp or do you want to be that typically "true to your form" rare beast - a General?

It is either buy a Disco and be a Private or buy a Rangie and be a General. Your decision. :D but I'm backing the Rangie..... :cool:

[royboy]

Why would you take a 15 year old Disco to a dealer? There are plenty of Landy specialists around, plus they're really not that complicated. Any decent workshop which actually cares about its customers should be able to look after them without charging ripoff prices.

Most mechanic here on the coast (and I know a few of them)wont touch LRs because either they are to busy (these are the good ones)and consider the LRs to time consuming, or have no idea (wouldn't give them a holden to fix)and send you back to the local dealer.
such is life on the central coast.

[royboy]

Glad I have you pegged accurately Roy - wasn't hard really......lol.

Seems to me there is only one question you should be asking your self.

Do you want to be a common "run of the mill" Private in the rebel camp or do you want to be that typically "true to your form" rare beast - a General?

It is either buy a Disco and be a Private or buy a Rangie and be a General. Your decision. :D but I'm backing the Rangie..... :cool:

mate I like the way you think. will have to catch up and have a beer one day;)

[Grumbles]

Sounds good Roy.

[royboy]

Sounds good Roy.

and in what part of this great land of ours do you live.:)

[Grumbles]

Near Albury.

[John W]

Have had my TD5 7 seat D2 for 10 years / 180,000k now and have been through a life time of problems with it and if I was going on just money would have ditched it years ago. The nearest dealer is now about 90 min away so have been doing all my own repairs for the past 4 years or so. It is satisfying to get it singing along they way you want it but frustrating too. For just 180,000km and all the various trouble it has had the rest of the family don't trust it and I now have a new 4X4 for the big trips. The disco is now pretty much my hobby car for getting dirty. Always something else to sort out with it but don't let that put you off it is fun sorting things out.

[royboy]

Near Albury.

no probs mate if I'm heading that way might look you up. and if your ever up on the central coast by all means give us a yell, might take you out fishing if your into that, always get plenty to wack on the barbie, (blue swimmers, flaties and jews when the tides right).

[Grumbles]

Thanks Roy - I sure do like my fishing but that boat trip....hmmmm..... Appealing as it is and as much as I like my Landies I sure do hope you don't have a Landrover engine powering said vessel. You see, I'm not being disloyal to the green oval badge but I mean to say.....I don't think I'm too keen on that walk out for the compulsory meet 'n' greet with a stranger for that obligatory tow which accompanies many a Landy outing. I never did master that trick of walking on water and as for being in the briney.......ughhhh..... too many big things live there which might see me as the catch of the day and snaffle me for breakfast. :D

[royboy]

no wet feet for this old salty thats what a decky for

And rest ashore mate the mud ramps are a thing of the past,its a concrete hwy all the way to the water nowadays (unless we are at glenbawn dam)

And as for the motor, well outboards are my thing(bread & butter so to speak), got 10 in the shed you can take your pick, although I would suggest the one on the back of me tinny to be the best,

the wife will tell ya that bloody boat gets looked after better then the family

So the offers there if your driving by and wanta take a look at our beautiful waterways and do a tad fishing just drop us a line,

And can be me decky for the day:twisted:

[Grumbles]

Sounds like your deckys are expendable Roy - a bit like sacrificial anodes.

But hey - great offer and thanks. :D If I'm heading your way I'll be in touch.

[royboy]

Your welcome mate.

Oh and by the way haven't lost a "Good" decky yet.

cheers Greg.

[Ace]

And that's the thing that makes Land Rovers popular with "enthusiasts" rather than the general motoring public. Yes, you can make most LRs pretty reliable once you know which bits to undertake preventative maintenance/modification on courtesy of the wealth of collective knowledge on this site. However, most people just want a car to drive rather than having their head under the bonnet all the time, and you have to admit, LR do shoot themselves in the foot with some pretty daft design flaws (e.g. oil in wiring loom and oil pump bolt on Td5s...both can be rectified, but the point is that if the designers were doing there jobs right, you wouldn't have to). Toyotas are boring to look at an drive, but they'll tolerate more abuse and less maintenance than a LR (so part of me can understand the original poster considering a HJ60 - nice and simple and reliable although a bit thirsty c.f. LR TDs)

The ability to buy one, put diff locks, stronger axles and a 2in lift and still have change from what it would have cost to buy a bog standard cruiser is also another good reason why people buy them.

I didnt take much effort to fix the niggling problems and since working them out I have had as much trouble free motoring as any cruiser owner.

Yes they do stuff up and make some daft desing flaws but toyota arent guilt free when it comes to this and look at Nissan with the 3.0L engine. Every manufacturer stuffs up. Land Rover have small niggling problems that they sort out, toyota and nissan stick their heads in the sand and hold their fingers in their ears singing lalalalalalalala hoping it will all go away by itself.