ZF Auto trans aftermarket steel pan and filter

[d3viate]

Hi, Has anybody fitted the ZF replacement Transmission pan with filter and had any problems with the LandRover warranty/service people ?.
I understand it will only be a problem if it is found that "the pan" is at fault but what has been LandRover's response for anybody who has done this change to the "sealed for life" trans ?.
Common sense says it's an improvement for the transmissions life but common sense is as rare as an honest politician.
I have contacted ZF directly but not much indication in the reply as to what LandRover thinks of ZF's non OEM pan being fitted.
Experienced feedback much appreciated. Thanks.

[CaverD3]

I understand it will only be a problem if it is found that "the pan" is at fault

That is the legal situation.
The risk is that if LR want to be a PITA over it then they can.
LR when compared to other manufacturers are quite good about warranty claims.

But if then that is the case then ZF have an issue as they made the pan for the transmission.

[Nomad9]

D3viate,
I've fitted the what you refer to as the "non OEM" part, as as as I'm aware this is a ZF component and not something somebody dreamt up in a garage somewhere, mine had a genuine ZF part number on it. So if by non OEM part you mean the pan isn't the one fitted by LR you are right, the gearbox is made by ZF so they are the OEM and this as far as I'm aware is a genuine ZF part. The only down side I can see here is the steel pan doesn't have any fins on it so by installing the steel pan behind the transmission cover you might have the gearbox running a bit warmer than normal, I don't know as yet. The gearbox does have a temp sensor that triggers the gearbox to optimise the right gear to keep the temp within limits if the oil gets to hot , if the temp goes out side these limits then the gearbox goes into limp mode as far as I'm aware anyway.
It's a choice thing, if you want to fit the steel pan and move into the world of replaceable filters and fresh oil every 90 to 100 k then step on board. If you want to stick with the LR pan and the sealed for life thing then that's got to be good as well. If the gearbox craps itself and you've got a steel pan on I could see LR doing their level best to get out of the claim.

[CaverD3]

D3viate,
The only down side I can see here is the steel pan doesn't have any fins on it so by installing the steel pan behind the transmission cover you might have the gearbox running a bit warmer than normal, I don't know as yet.

I think the steel pan will probably conduct heat better even without the fins. The OEM pan is plastic so the fins are just there to look good, they don't conduct any heat.
If you are worried about overheating you are better putting a bigger oil cooler in front of the radiator.

[Nomad9]

Hi CaverD3,
I suspect you 100% correct, steel does conduct heat better, I thought about this a bit more after I posted the reply. Me I'm not worried about over heating the transmission at all. If anything does happen then yes I'll look at a bigger cooler as you suggest. I know what you are saying about the fins, the fins do increase the surface area of the pan, how much this improves the cooling efficiency if anything, unsure.....

[djhampson]

I'm completely ignorant to autos so apologies if these are dumb questions...

Why would I replace the pan? What does it do? Is it like the sump of an engine?

What symptoms would make you want to change the pan \ oil?

[Rockylizard]

I'm completely ignorant to autos so apologies if these are dumb questions...

Why would I replace the pan? What does it do? Is it like the sump of an engine?

What symptoms would make you want to change the pan \ oil?
Gday...
I am ignorant of D3 Autos ... and would also love to know the answers to the above (dumb?) questions.
Cheers

John

[BigJon]

I think the original fitment pan is plastic and is destroyed when removed.

It is basically the sump which holds the transmission oil.

You should change the oil and filter regularly, just like you do with an engine.
The long service interval given by LR is not realistic for good transmission life, particularly in harsh conditions (heat, dust, towing, etc).

[CaverD3]

The original pan in the D3 requires the crossmember to be undone and one engine mount undone in order to remove the pan and change the filter.

The steel pan was developed for the falcon transmission because the plastic one was was easily damaged.
The advantage for the D3 is you can undo the original pan and rip out the OEM filter without undoing the engine mount. The steel pan just slots in with the new filter. All subequent changes are easier and quicker, especially if you need to do another change to flush the ATF and change the filter.
Also less prone to damage and better cooling due to heat conduction through the steel. Plastic fins are only there to make the pan look the part. An aluminium pan with cooling fins would be ideal.

[Nomad9]

HI DJHampson,
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask. I've learnt that. CaverD3 has covered all the good bits, I think it was Mr Sniegy who pointed me in the right direction when it came to steel sump pans, steep learning curve but well worth it I believe. I bought a set of allen key style torx spanners to make the removal and replacement of the screwsa bit easier. Not sure if you caught the discussion about sealed for life and what that means, sealed for life is in reality "sealed for the life of the warranty" not your life or the vehicles. I started looking into this after someone mentioned a slight shudder in the gearbox when taking off. I had a slight shudder once when taking off with my camper trailer on, plus my klms seemed to add up to the sort of time others were talking about maybe time to change the oil being the 90 to 120 k mark.
I asked what I felt was a dumb question about changing the fuel filter at the weekend, I was off in invention mode trying to figure out a better way to bleed the system off, turns out you don't need to, works for me.
Check out my new sump pan in the thumbnail, bit of a dodgy picture but I'm sure you'll get the drift. I hope they come out.

28322

28323

[vbrab]

looking for supplier of the replacement steel pan and filter for a D3 auto.
Can anybody direct me to the sellers (perhaps ZF product?)
regards, vbrab

[Nomad9]

Hi vbrab,
Check out A & B Transmissions in Dendenong, Home (http://www.abautomatics.com.au) they will mail order, they are ZF agents. Automac in Myaree are also ZF agents in Perth, not sure about buying the pan off them. I got mine from A & B very efficiently, give them a call and do the transaction over the phone, if you have any questions the guys are very helpful.
If you have access to a Toyota agent investing in some of their "black sealant" is a good move. Where you are might be an idea to keep the sealant in a cool place when you aren't using it.

[101RRS]

Listed here as well

ZF 6 Speed Automatic Range Rover ZF6HP26 Steel Sump Conversion Service Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-6-Speed-Automatic-Range-Rover-ZF6HP26-Steel-Sump-Conversion-Service-Kit-/140611155008?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bd13f440)

Garry

[Stuart02]

Are D4 2.7s the same deal then?

[vbrab]

Thanks for that Nomad9, will chase up one and get on with servicing it, probably needs it after 200k.

[vbrab]

Have located a service kit with new pan, but now come to correct oil and hear variable claims about what oil can be used.
Looks like I will have to be flushing a fair bit through after replacing pan and that looks like being an expensive (wasteful) exercise.
Claims are that ZF "Lifeguard 6" is the ONLY oil for this trans, and I have prices from $55 for one litre to $32 a litre (for 20L), plus freight, depending on how much I buy.
Evidently dealer retail is $75 a litre for same oil.
Mercedes use ZF box and their retail for their oil is $32 a litre (same as holden which use ZF box.
Somebody thought that Mercedes owned ZF.
Does anybody have any good info on what oil should/can be used in D3 auto?
thanks vbrab

[Ean Austral]

Beleive it or not ZF are still a private family owned company.


Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

Well ordered my oil (20ltrs) and steel pan kit from ZF today.

They are in sydney somewhere but do also have a service centre in perth, so might be worth you WA guys checking there prices.

My brother in law is the ZF marine agent in darwin and he's price was not much cheaper than mine, so after the tight arse put his mark up on it, I can get it cheaper direct from ZF..(He did say he has never had to buy that oil from them, so dont think he got a super good price quoted from them, not like if he baught heaps.)

Will see how it goes when I get it.

Cheers Ean

[vbrab]

They (ZF) didn't actually have any 20L drums in Perth in stock, but as their delivery price from Sydney was less than half what I was quoted to deliver from Perth (by another freight mob), I was happy to place order with ZF and wait a bit. Now all I have to do is change it all when it arrives.
Regards, vbrab

[TDV6]

Please remember to order a new gasket as well, ZF has them cheep enough.

If converting from plastic to steel also get new shorter torx screws as the steel is thinner than the plastic.

I picked up several filters, gaskets and a 20L drum of oil from ZF on my way through Sydney early this year so I'm set for the next few years.

Ryall

[Mike_S]

As an indication, what are people paying (if they don't mind me asking) for the genuine items ?

A&B want $400 for the kit, Ritters $440, Ebay seems to suggest $330.

Just thought it may help a few others.

[Ean Austral]

Gday Mike,

This is close, within a few $$$
20ltrs ZF oil $515 plus GST
Steel pan kit with filter, shorter bolts, etc, $275 plus GST.

Ordered yesterday from ZF in sydney..speak to adrien.

Cheers Ean

[640Newton]

We had ours done a couple of months ago. I paid someone to do it for me as I'm not mechanically minded (to that level) and all up for the new pan, filter, double flush, fitted and labour costs it came in at around $1,200. So there are some good savings if you have a go yourself.

[Graeme]

.. double flush..
Saab have a procedure (for my son's MY03 9-5 at least) that is supposed to replace all the old oil without undue waste.

Drain the sump then add 4L to refill the sump, disconnect the cooler return hose at the cooler, start the engine and drain off 2L, stop engine then add 2L, start engine and drain off another 1L, stop engine and reconnect cooler hose then top-up using normal top-up procedure.

[tebone]

Hi Guys,
I think I have missed something here which zf auto are we talking about the z4hp, zf5hp , zf6hp or even the 8. I have just purchased a filter kit for the zf5hp24 $70 for l322 02model. I have been looking at which oil to run. as you know we can't get the esso product but nylon product might be the one to use.
My l322 has locked into 3rd when its got hot a couple of times and then releases when cool. Currently I will be installing a cooler at the front.
I have been told by a zf rebuilder is keep the fluid cool and change approx 25-30K's to give max life. He reckons 40K's is a bit long when towing as the zf loves clean fluid.

Regards Paul

[101RRS]

Hi Guys,
I think I have missed something here which zf auto are we talking about

As we are on the D3/D4/RRS section the model that goes in these -ZF6HP26:D.

[bbyer]

Below is the link to a file section I have on disco3 with reference to material I dug up when researching a "mere" transmission oil and filter change. I also found some material on the ZF plastic and ZF metal pans as well as the 6 speed oil, as opposed to 5 speed oil - everything is special.

As with all things Land Rover, as previously mentioned, a "sealed for life" transmission is not quite what one might first think. It may even be that ZF calls the 6HP26 that is in our 3's, the 6HP26X to differentiate it from the very similar 6 speeds on rear wheel drive only vehicles. Also it appears that Ford is now constructing a license built version that they call the 6R60. There is a nice cut a way jpg which gives a pretty good view of why an oil change, no matter how much it costs, is cheap.

Since my oil change, I get from 50 to 100 km more out of a full tank now on my 4.4L petrol V8 LR3. That is a big deal to me; also the cost of the oil and pan/filter change was paid for in somewhat over a year just by the fuel cost savings.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[vbrab]

Decided that at 198,000k's and "sealed for life", transmission might need a change of oil and filter. Pic is of oil that came out, looked like coke....but blacker.
Probably only thing that saved the trans was that it has never towed or gone off road, and always done long steady country runs.

Will change it every 50,000 from now on.
vbrab

[tempestv8]

Wow, that used trans fluid looks very black indeed! :o

You must be really glad to have gotten rid of at least half of all the fluid in your gearbox.

I had to drain the "lifetime" auto trans fluid out of a BMW X3 that had travelled 100,000 kms and it was in a similar black condition. :mad:

[vbrab]

I started with a 20L drum of trans fluid and by the time I had drained what I could and then flushed through until it at least looked a bit cleaner, I had about 6 litres left in the drum.
When the vehicle was in the dealers, I asked them to do the fliud change and they told me that it was an "internet myth" that the fluid ever needed changing.

[101RRS]

I started with a 20L drum of trans fluid and by the time I had drained what I could and then flushed through until it at least looked a bit cleaner, I had about 6 litres left in the drum.
When the vehicle was in the dealers, I asked them to do the fliud change and they told me that it was an "internet myth" that the fluid ever needed changing.

it is a myth - the service schedule has the change at 240,000km or 10 years - and half that if used for towing - still way too high though

[bbyer]

They might change their view if they learned that the LR dealers here charge about $1,500.00 to $2,000.00 to change the transmission oil and install a new plastic pan/filter combo.

The dealer here will only use the LR sourced oil etc and will not install the metal pan - you have to do that yourself or find an independent who can spell ZF.

The $CDN 1,500.00 to $2,000.00 number is definitely not a myth - that I think your dealers could comprehend and probably get them thinking of the possibilities should the myth be dispelled.

Given that all dealers know that the trannys cannot be repaired but must be exchanged, you might point out that LR would not have the oil or the pans available in parts if either was never changed.

Capitalism eventually prevails over Witchcraft or Tradecraft.

[Ean Austral]

I started with a 20L drum of trans fluid and by the time I had drained what I could and then flushed through until it at least looked a bit cleaner, I had about 6 litres left in the drum.
When the vehicle was in the dealers, I asked them to do the fliud change and they told me that it was an "internet myth" that the fluid ever needed changing.

Gday VBRAB,

How did you do the flushing you speak of ?

will do mine soon so would be a good thing to do, but with only 70,000ks will be interesting to see the colour of the oil that comes out.

Cheers Ean

[KOOS BEST]

Internet myth , my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here in Africa, we tow a lot in high ambient temperatures, and dusty conditions like you guys down under.

In Europe , they travel on bitumen roads, low ambient temperatures, hardly ever tows , dust ? what is dust.

According to the ZF agents in Johannesburg, the sealed for life is an European standard, so that ZF can claim they don't have any oil spillage or waste of old oil.The technician told me do not exceed 100 000km without an oil and filter change. Discard the plastic sump for a steel sump, because of filter change will be easier.You cannot expect a gearbox to be sealed for life.

Now the ELUSIVE Shell 1375.4 oil has also a new Castrol equivalent , see the following spec sheet. Interesting look at BMW,Jaguar, Land Rover.
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_ImportMV.pdf

[bbyer]

Now the ELUSIVE Shell 1375.4 oil has also a new Castrol equivalent , see the following spec sheet. Interesting look at BMW,Jaguar, Land Rover.
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_ImportMV.pdf Interesting to see in one place, that both the Jag and LR ATF are the same Shell number. As this has always been the case, my local dealer uses the Jag part number oil rather than the LR part number oil as Land Rover charges him less for the Jag oil than the LR part number oil.

I much appreciate the Castrol sheet. The ZF six speed in our 3's has been around long enough that the mystery surrounding them should be over. The awe and internet myths should be with the 8 speed by now.

[vbrab]

THIS MAY NOT BE HOW THE BEST ADVICE SUGGESTS TO DO IT, but it is how I did it.
After re-fitting new pan and filter, before starting engine, I pumped enough fluid into trans till it ran out of inlet hole. (probably about 5-6 litres). Screwed plug back in finger tight.
Then I located the "out" trans pipe/hose as it connects to the passenger side of the radiator (top small hose), undid that and pulled it down so it was hanging out front below my bumper and put a large catch tray under it. Then I started motor for about 30 seconds and about 1.5 litres pumped out (black), then I pumped more oil back in until it ran out hole (plug in again). Start motor pump out another 1.5 litres, stop repeat process 3-4 times until what is coming out looks a bit cleaner. put hose back on radiator, top up, run in park and through all gears, check and top up, then around teh block and if not hot check and top up again. A week later (this morning) I have been out again and checked and found it took about another pint (450mls).
My caution in saying this is how I did it, was that I didn't start and run the car before undoing the "out" pipe, and there was apossibility that the box might have starved for oil (I just don't know). My thinking was that it would pick up from the 5-6 litres I had pumped in and would pump straight through flushing , and as long as I stopped after 1.5 litres ran out damage was unlikley. I doubt there would be damage as one service agent says he drops the pan and then runs the car for 5 seconds to let torque convertor pump out, before attempting re-fill. I figure that is more likley to end up with "dry" components. Use my directions at own risk, regards, vbrab

[101RRS]

run in park and through all gears, check and top up, then around teh block and if not hot check and top up again. A week later (this morning) I have been out again and checked and found it took about another pint (450mls).
vbrab

Did you check the final oil level with its temp between 35 and 50 degrees?? (I appreciate the air temp might be above 35 where you are at the moment)

If you tested checked it when cold (less than 35 degrees) and topped it up till it ran out the fill hole then the gearbox will be over filled.

Garry

[jonesy63]

It really makes me wonder - why hasn't some of the auto service shops purchased the "megaflush" equipment - which they have in the UK. This uses a similar process to vbrab's process - but also pumps clean fluid into the auto while running. There are so many Fords and other cars with these ZF boxes - I can only assume ignorance is bliss.

[Graeme]

THIS MAY NOT BE HOW THE BEST ADVICE SUGGESTS TO DO IT, but it is how I did it.
Its my intention to change the oil the Saab way too when the time comes as the oil flow from the converter to the cooler then back to the sump is the same. Its wastes a lot less oil than double-flushing.

[KOOS BEST]

THIS MAY NOT BE HOW THE BEST ADVICE SUGGESTS TO DO IT, but it is how I did it.
After re-fitting new pan and filter, before starting engine, I pumped enough fluid into trans till it ran out of inlet hole. (probably about 5-6 litres). Screwed plug back in finger tight.
Then I located the "out" trans pipe/hose as it connects to the passenger side of the radiator (top small hose), undid that and pulled it down so it was hanging out front below my bumper and put a large catch tray under it. Then I started motor for about 30 seconds and about 1.5 litres pumped out (black), then I pumped more oil back in until it ran out hole (plug in again). Start motor pump out another 1.5 litres, stop repeat process 3-4 times until what is coming out looks a bit cleaner. put hose back on radiator, top up, run in park and through all gears, check and top up, then around teh block and if not hot check and top up again. A week later (this morning) I have been out again and checked and found it took about another pint (450mls).
My caution in saying this is how I did it, was that I didn't start and run the car before undoing the "out" pipe, and there was apossibility that the box might have starved for oil (I just don't know). My thinking was that it would pick up from the 5-6 litres I had pumped in and would pump straight through flushing , and as long as I stopped after 1.5 litres ran out damage was unlikley. I doubt there would be damage as one service agent says he drops the pan and then runs the car for 5 seconds to let torque convertor pump out, before attempting re-fill. I figure that is more likley to end up with "dry" components. Use my directions at own risk, regards, vbrab

Something similar to what Filo does in Italy.
DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - FILO's autobox oil change (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic55010.html)

[Geedublya]

It really makes me wonder - why hasn't some of the auto service shops purchased the "megaflush" equipment - which they have in the UK. This uses a similar process to vbrab's process - but also pumps clean fluid into the auto while running. There are so many Fords and other cars with these ZF boxes - I can only assume ignorance is bliss.

This equipment is available here. I know the owner of Ultratune Parramatta and he has a flushing machine like this.

[d3viate]

it is a myth - the service schedule has the change at 240,000km or 10 years - and half that if used for towing - still way too high though
garrycol, I can tell you are not are mechanic that has spent years rebuilding transmissions. As can be seen in the pic from another post here, as soon as the trans starts its life the friction plates and bearings start deterioration and we have all this metal and friction material floating around the transmission causing further wear on the components as well as going through the valve body which has extremely tight tolerances. When I quiz Dealer Service Managers, non I have ever come across at dealers in four states, have ever rebuilt a transmission, they just replace them. How can you have a decent conversation with somebody who has not even opened one up or rebuilt hundreds as I have in the past, including 6, 7 and 8 speed transmissions or ever done Oil Analysis on the LR "for life" theory. There is no magic oil that sends all the wear material off to leave clean oil to circulate, the Auto Trans filter does not catch all this material. Years in Oil Analysis of mobile mechanical components and Failure Analysis training taught me different to what blarney LR dealers spruke. I do not want to get into a conversation with your view just because "LR said so" other than this post. You have your view, I have my decades of experience, and others here have the proof of the oil condition and common sense.

[CaverD3]

I think you misunderstood what garycol was saying? :confused:

[101RRS]

garrycol, I can tell you are not are mechanic that has spent years rebuilding transmissions.

I do not want to get into a conversation with your view just because "LR said so" other than this post. You have your view, I have my decades of experience, and others here have the proof of the oil condition and common sense.

Huh - sorry I do not know what you are on about:confused:.

Just commenting that the view that many people on here seem to think that the boxes are sealed for life is incorrect as landrover have never said that, and this is not reflected in the service schedule - and by the way my view is as stated in my post is that this schedule is way too long.

Maybe you need to take a bex, have a lie down and actually take a slow read of what I said.

But yes you are right I do not know one thing about the workings of a auto box and have no intention of learning.

garry

[d3viate]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbrab
I started with a 20L drum of trans fluid and by the time I had drained what I could and then flushed through until it at least looked a bit cleaner, I had about 6 litres left in the drum.
When the vehicle was in the dealers, I asked them to do the fliud change and they told me that it was an "internet myth" that the fluid ever needed changing.

it is a myth - the service schedule has the change at 240,000km or 10 years - and half that if used for towing - still way too high though
Sorry if I have taken it wrong, but I did not think any human would take the Lifetime fluid as literally "lifetime" or that a dealer ? would actually say that. Did the dealer have a red nose and big funny shoes ?
I, it seems, presumed he believed that LR were anywhere near what is required for a longlife trans.
I should of taken more interest in the - way still too high though.
My apologies. I do not have bex but I'll go back in my kennel.

[tempestv8]

No harm done, no need to go anywhere. It's good to get hard earned first hand experience shared on this forum.

It isn't Land Rover (or ZF) that are pusing this "lifetime" fluid nonsense. Toyota has followed suit so a Land Cruiser 200 Series auto gearbox, made by Aisin, also has "lifetime" fluid. ;)

Maybe the fluids are getting better due to technology? :angel: :wasntme:

[Hoges]

I suspect that earlier posts which hinted that "lifetime" was defined as period of warranty is on the money...and also minimising the need to dump /recycle oil ... major dealers now need to spend $000s on recovery processes..

[DDdisco]

Has anyone had the pan change etc done at Southern Cross in Toowoomba? Any thoughts or any other recommendations for that part of the world?

Cheers

[vbrab]

This thread cautions against a flush DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Recommended NOT to do a gearbox flush ! (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic71389.html) i think it might be about the pressure of flushing.
This thread however looks like something I might make and use next time to get the old oil out.
DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - FILO's autobox oil change (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic55010.html)
seems like it might work, perhaps need to ask guy who put thread up if he has had any subsequent problems...like leaks.
regards, vbrab