Flex, or lack of it

[nayto]

Hi all, iv got a 01 defender 110. Recently fitted some Bilstein shocks (front are F4-B46-0243-HO, rear are K4-BE5-62200-MO anyone else on here run these shocks) and new springs (40mm lift). The rims on my fender are not the standard extreme alloys, they are steel NRC7578 rims. At first i thought maybe the shocks are too short, which i still do....... but then i noticed the tyre rub.
On full flex, at the rear especially the tyres rub on the top hat of the spring towers. Im guessing this is a common thing being they are genuine Landrover rims? If i can figure out how to get the couple photos off my phone i took ill see what you guys think about how much its flexing, and if its pretty average.
Besides wheel spacers which i know are illegal, is there any other option besides getting a rim with more offset? Just wondering because when i do go to fit some new MT tyres, theyre probably going to hit even more.

[lambrover]

Hi mate I have 33's 12.5 on 15 inch rims with neg 25 offset they rub but they push past the tower

[DeeJay]

I know Rangie alloy rim offset is not as much as standard NRC 7578 as I had that issue with them rubbing on the cones with 265x75x16, but since going back to standard rims with 235X85X16 there have been no issues.

[nayto]

Thanks for the replies. Im running 285/75/16 atm, no idea what the offset on these rims are. I asked a couple tyre places here for some rims to suit and they all were like......Landrover hmm no idea!
Lambrover do your tyres stick out of the gaurds at all with that offset? I have the factory plastic flares on mine which give a bit of coverage for a wider offset. So when i fork out for new tyres i might aswell get some new rims with wider offset to suit. Any reccomendations on brands etc?

[Allan]

I put Performance 16x8 alloys on my Puma. They fill the hole well with 265/75 muds.
and no rubbing due to change off offset. Better turning circle also.

Allan

[lambrover]

Thanks for the replies. Im running 285/75/16 atm, no idea what the offset on these rims are. I asked a couple tyre places here for some rims to suit and they all were like......Landrover hmm no idea!
Lambrover do your tyres stick out of the gaurds at all with that offset? I have the factory plastic flares on mine which give a bit of coverage for a wider offset. So when i fork out for new tyres i might aswell get some new rims with wider offset to suit. Any reccomendations on brands etc?

My tyre's do stick out past the flares but have spaced them out by 70mm but my recommendation to you is to run a 255/85/16 tyre on a 16 inch rim with a zero offset this is a great size. I think the problem your having is the wide tyre on a standard offset. My tyre's are wide 12.5 inch and do rub but they push past the perch and there has been no damage to the tyre's. I have dynamic rims they are made in Brisbane and are very good product and good price you can go direct or have a look on les richmond automotive web site

[Benny_IIA]

My tyre's do stick out past the flares but have spaced them out by 70mm but my recommendation to you is to run a 255/85/16 tyre on a 16 inch rim with a zero offset this is a great size. I think the problem your having is the wide tyre on a standard offset. My tyre's are wide 12.5 inch and do rub but they push past the perch and there has been no damage to the tyre's. I have dynamic rims they are made in Brisbane and are very good product and good price you can go direct or have a look on les richmond automotive web site


i run my 255's on a -25 rim for a bit widder track.

[malsgoing130]

Hi Nayto,
Ive got a 130 with disco 1 steel wheels with 255/85/16 and they rub on the spring tower I also have Bilsteins dont know the product number but will try find the invoices. I smoothed off the spring bracket to stop the tyre from being chewed up. I dont know about the flex(exept the chassis!!) sorry.

cheers
Mal

[nayto]

Forgive my stupidness but does the more negative offset mean the further they are spaced from the hub? As in the wider the track will be........
And thanks Lambrover they are a good price on the LRA website. Last time i bought Sunraysias i got wildly different prices from every dealer i went to, most more expensive than the LRA ones.

[nayto]

Forget the question about what offset is what......i just read the LRA webpage a bit better :wasntme:

[Tusker]

The lift is partly the cause of this. Not up & down motion obviously, but flex.

As the axle rotates its now moving in a different arc. Where the top of the tyre used to go above the spring tower, its now down a bit & touches.

Regards
Max P

[nayto]

Ok, so i finally got around to posting some photos up of my rig and its suspension. It doesnt feel as stable offroad as it used to before the springs/shocks were fitted. Much more willing to cock a leg up it seems like. Anyway heres the pics
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/nayto84/111-1.jpghttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/nayto84/112-1.jpghttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/nayto84/110.jpghttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/nayto84/108.jpghttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx64/nayto84/109-1.jpg

[one_iota]

fixed links to nayto's photos

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/870.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/871.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/872.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/873.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/874.jpg

[dullbird]

it honestly looks like your running a standard setup..in fact I think my puma which is running a standard setup flex better then that.

stiffer springs don't always give you good flex....but if you have standard bilstiens on then your shock is going to be the limiter anyway assuming you haven't tied your springs in

The part number you have given for the shocks..are you sure that is the correct number I punched it in to Google and came up with nothing..I also tried searching on a U.S website that deals with bilstiens and again came up with nothing

[rick130]

[snip]

The part number you have given for the shocks..are you sure that is the correct number I punched it in to Google and came up with nothing..I also tried searching on a U.S website that deals with bilstiens and again came up with nothing

B46 0243 are fronts, rears for a 110 are either B46 0253 or B46 0254 (130 rears are BE5 6529) That BE5-6220 (one too many numbers on the OP's number) doesn't match up with anything ?

[dullbird]

I think he has given Manufacturers number rather then Part number...maybe why I can't find anything

The fronts he has are HD I have worked that much out

[lambrover]

Nayto, you made a comment about how the car feels less stable after the lift, what brand of coils did you buy, one of the biggest mistakes when people lift is there choice of coil. a lot of manufactures use a heavy spring rate to give the lift and this is no good for flex. In the rear what you need is a coil with the standard rate but just taller, this gives you a great ride better flex and the lift. A new rear set will be cheap enough if you want to change out, on contrast the front look like it is working well.

[rick130]

[snip]

stiffer springs don't always give you good flex....but if you have standard bilstiens on then your shock is going to be the limiter anyway assuming you haven't tied your springs in

[snip]

Pretty much nailed it, most aftermarket 'lifted' springs just achieve a lift by being much higher than stock spring rate, their free lengths are often the same or sometimes shorter :eek: than stock, and with the high rates they often won't go fully compressed into the bump stops on bump.
By only using standard length dampers and short, high rate springs you also compromise droop travel, the car now sits 40-50mm higher but has reduced droop travel by the same amount.

Stock fit Billie dimensions for B46 0243 and B46 0253. (base of pin to base of pin, centre of eye to base of pin)

Fronts 548mm open, 330.5mm closed
Rears 553.5mm open, 346.5mm closed (Bilsteins measurements)

Standard L/R Woodhead/Monroe dampers

Front 550mm/328mm
Rear 550mm/350mm (my measurements)

[nayto]

Cheers for fixing up my photos mate. I agree dullbird, i think that it did flex better before i put the suspension in, it definately wasnt as keen to lift a wheel anyways. The springs are EFS, HD ones. Apparently they dont make any aftermarket springs with a slight lift, without going to a heavy duty coil. The ones i went with are the lighter rating of the 2 options.
The Bilstein part numbers i quoted were whats written on the shocks, the reciept that came with them says B46-0243 front B46-0255 rear. Whether or not i got them ones i dont know.Old mate from Rovacraft ensured me they were long enough for 2" lift.
Basically im not happy with it offroad atm, onroad its great though. I think maybe im going to have to at least swap the rear coils with something lighter :(

[nayto]

Do Bilstein make a longer travel shock? The measurements quoted above arent much longer than standard. I have a feeling mine arent long enough, i know the ruts i tried to drive through the other day, it should have been able to walk through it i reckon. Im guessing that the springs just too stiff that it lifts the opposing wheel intsead of compressing the spring more, and possibly the shock is already topped out at that stage?

[dullbird]

could try Dobbinson coils I know a few people use them...

[rick130]

Do Bilstein make a longer travel shock? The measurements quoted above arent much longer than standard.
[snip]


Yep, LRA originally commissioned them and IIRC they are available through Sydney Shocks/Heasmans.
They are basically just longer versions of the B46-0243/B46-0255 and IIRC carry the same part #'s with a suffix.

Have some specific open/closed lengths here somewhere but when I asked Andrew at LRA years ago he couldn't remember off the top of his head but said they were basically 2" more stroke than stock so add roughly 50mm to the above dimensions. (*which also means you need to modify mounts so you don't bottom out the shocks on full compression)
[edit] forgot to add you will need longer free length springs to take advantage of the longer stroke dampers, otherwise the springs will fall out of their perches at anything approaching full droop and they won't fall back in (unless locating cones are used, and then that becomes another discussion entirely)

[frantic]

To get more articulation you need a longer shock.(+ a flexible coil aka dobinsons)
Because you fitted a 2 in lift with the same length shock you reduced the amount the wheel can drop. The standard shock/ billie has 8 inches of travel so on stock settings has 2-3in up and 5 down, raise Your defender 2 in and now it's more 4-5in up and 3-4 in down:o
If you fit longer shocks you will need to EITHER:
fit a taller rubber bump stop(to prevent the shock damaging itself), which will limit your axles uptravel,
or fit raised shock mount points with longer shocks. Such as a Gwyn lewis challenge Kit, OME 60070L shocks or another similar size and dobinson +2in coils(flexi coils on the rear) See my post in My defender.

[Benny_IIA]

To get more articulation you need a longer shock.(+ a flexible coil aka dobinsons)
Because you fitted a 2 in lift with the same length shock you reduced the amount the wheel can drop. The standard shock/ billie has 8 inches of travel so on stock settings has 2-3in up and 5 down, raise Your defender 2 in and now it's more 4-5in up and 3-4 in down:o
If you fit longer shocks you will need to EITHER:
fit a taller rubber bump stop(to prevent the shock damaging itself), which will limit your axles uptravel,
or fit raised shock mount points with longer shocks. Such as a Gwyn lewis challenge Kit, OME 60070L shocks or another similar size and dobinson +2in coils(flexi coils on the rear) See my post in My defender.


Lifted springs are not need for flex....

I run stock rear springs and I can completely cycle a 14.5" travel shock...

just to show off, i'll show you:D


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/190.jpg

[rick130]

Lifted springs are not need for flex....

I run stock rear springs and I can completely cycle a 14.5" travel shock...

just to show off, i'll show you:D




As I mentioned earlier, dislocated vs retained = whole new discussion (otherwise known as a can-o-worms) :D

[Benny_IIA]

As I mentioned earlier, dislocated vs retained = whole new discussion (otherwise known as a can-o-worms) :D


arr yes i remember the thread......:angel:

[lambrover]

Frantic, your calcs are good but don't take into consideration that you can fit 2 inch lower shock mounts and still run the standard shocks thus if you are using the standard mounts Landrover have cheated us out of 2 inch of travel as it's wasted by being in to high a mount.

Benny_IIA, love the photo mate, I have 12.8 inch in the rear but will be going similar to your self soon, I am considering longer arms though to prevent the rear steer as you have there.

Rick130, I too remember those threads good fun. My current thread about ultra flexi coils, I am going to run them retained and as mentioned they will be ground thinner in the ends to be able to open/stretch. But I do love the set up that Benny has got.

[frantic]

:) Actually I did take that into consideration but you have identical OVERALL travel if you use the same size shocks as by lowering the standard size shockies you still need to raise the bumpstop to prevent destroying the shock.
Yes you will get more drop on one side by lowering with the standard 8in travel shock but you lose the same on compresion. Raise the shock tower and fit a longer shock (springs +2in or more and location/ dislocation are your decision) so you retain the upward travel and gain more downward stretch.;)
P.s Benny II with the dislocation(nice ute) and the 14.8 in travel shock you moved the shock mounts up from standard around 3 inches?

[BigJon]

Frantic, your calcs are good but don't take into consideration that you can fit 2 inch lower shock mounts and still run the standard shocks thus if you are using the standard mounts Landrover have cheated us out of 2 inch of travel as it's wasted by being in to high a mount.



I ran rear shock mounts that were lowered by about 30mm for a while. I also snapped two shocks while doing so. Coincidence?

[LowRanger]

I ran rear shock mounts that were lowered by about 30mm for a while. I also snapped two shocks while doing so. Conincidence?


I think NOT !!!!!:angel:

I agree with Frantic.Too many people people just lower the rear mounts and just loose up travel,which then forces the body and chassis to tilt,and makes the vehicle unstable.

It is good to see that you have at least raised your mounting points Benny,but I won't open the can of worms about other points:angel:

Rick130 I have a set of +50mm Dobinson Flexicoils,and run use a dislocation cone that only allows them to dislocate about 2" before the coil is captured by a built in hook,hence allowing the best of both worlds;)

Wayne

[dullbird]

I think NOT !!!!!:angel:

I agree with Frantic.Too many people people just lower the rear mounts and just loose up travel,which then forces the body and chassis to tilt,and makes the vehicle unstable.

It is good to see that you have at least raised your mounting points Benny,but I won't open the can of worms about other points:angel:

Rick130 I have a set of +50mm Dobinson Flexicoils,and run use a dislocation cone that only allows them to
dislocate about 2" before the coil is captured by a built in hook,hence allowing the best of both worlds;)

Wayne

I saw these at billing and really liked them (I think I took a photo of them too)..can I ask where you got them from?

[LowRanger]

I saw these at billing and really liked them (I think I took a photo of them too)..can I ask where you got them from?


You most certainly may:)
I got mine from Gwyn Lewis in the UK

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/107011-110-defender-suspension-bits-gathered.html

If you have a look you can see them in the centre of the images in the above link

They are part of Gwyn's challenge suspension package.
Held in extremely high regard in the UK.
So much so that Terrafirma took his designs (he didn't patent them) and made their own versions,much to his disgust.

Chall Spring Locator (http://www.gwynlewis4x4.co.uk/page68.html)
A direct link to the part on the Gwyn Lewis site.
Or you could have a look for yourself if you are at the LR expo on Sunday:D
regards

Wayne

[Benny_IIA]

:) Actually I did take that into consideration but you have identical OVERALL travel if you use the same size shocks as by lowering the standard size shockies you still need to raise the bumpstop to prevent destroying the shock.
Yes you will get more drop on one side by lowering with the standard 8in travel shock but you lose the same on compresion. Raise the shock tower and fit a longer shock (springs +2in or more and location/ dislocation are your decision) so you retain the upward travel and gain more downward stretch.;)
P.s Benny II with the dislocation(nice ute) and the 14.8 in travel shock you moved the shock mounts up from standard around 3 inches?



about 6" with 1" bump stop ext....

They are long bodies so the the closed lengths is about 20.5"

Pro Comp make a 14" shock that is around 18.5" closed


OM is about 13.5"



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/582.jpg

[frantic]

You most certainly may:)
I got mine from Gwyn Lewis in the UK



If you have a look you can see them in the centre of the images in the above link

They are part of Gwyn's challenge suspension package.
Held in extremely high regard in the UK.
So much so that Terrafirma took his designs (he didn't patent them) and made their own versions,much to his disgust.

Or you could have a look for yourself if you are at the LR expo on Sunday:D
regards

Wayne


Ditto! :D
I Should be there sunday and also have the same kit fitted but only a 40mm lift( I just still fit in the garage with a steep downward approach angle!) in a dark blue defender. Ill say hi!:D

[LowRanger]

Ditto! :D
I Should be there sunday and also have the same kit fitted but only a 40mm lift( I just still fit in the garage with a steep downward approach angle!) in a dark blue defender. Ill say hi!:D

Haha mine has no hope of fitting under my carport,nevermind the garage:mad:
I imagine there will be a few Blue defenders there.
Mine will be the roughest looking white defender:cool:But it has nice green dobinson springs.will be on my standard wheels,as I can't be bothered putting on 35's just to go to Castle Hill:p
I will be the one in the LROCS shirt:eek:
Wayne

[rick130]

Wayne, what free length and rate are your springs ?

[LowRanger]

Rick

It has been a while since I bought my springs,when I first ordered them,they didn't want to tell me the rate (secret squirrel stuff).Until I told them,it was either tell me or I wouldn't buy.My springs are slightly heavier than standard rate 110 springs in the front,to allow for the bullbar and winch,and the rears are standard rate 110.I can't remember the the free length anymore,but they were about made with 11 turns on the front springs,which is maximum on my setup to avoid coil bind.And they were approx 30mm taller than the old heavy duty +2" springs that I took out.
I still have the boxes in the garage,with the Dobinson part numbers if you want to ring Dobinson for the exact specs?

Wayne

[rick130]

No one wants to divulge rates, the crazy part is it only takes a minute in a rate tester.
When I was racing we'd just get a corner weight pad from the corner weight gauges and put them in a press (or drill press) and have a spring rated instantly.
These days any digi scale would do.
(FWIW Kings would wind whatever rate 60mm ID spring I wanted in whatever free length and they always rated spot on, unfortunately they'd also take a set after a while....)

If I had the exact wire diameter and exact # of coils and i can work the rate out, or at least get pretty close.

They actually sound close to what I'm using in the front anyway, (17" free length, 220lb/in) I was just curious what they classified as 'flexi'

[nayto]

Lowranger, If i could grab the dobinson numbers off you that'd be great, next ones i buy i dont want to have to do it again for a while. So the 7100 Bilsteins i hear people taking about, are the mounts the same as standard?

[rick130]

[snip]
So the 7100 Bilsteins i hear people taking about, are the mounts the same as standard?

Nope, 1/2" spherical bearings top and bottom.

Slunnie had some and they started clicking in no time (grit and dust kills the teflon/dry lubed liner) so he ended up getting them modified with 'normal' resilient bushed ends.

A set of 'Seals-It' seals will help enormously, although I've never used them.

If I did use rod end/spherical end shocks I'd be ordering some seals-it seals from the US too (although I'd imagine someone here that supplies the Speedway crowd would import them too.)

FWIW Fox Racing Shox make bolt in's with a CD adjuster on the remote can and urethane bushes for classic style suspension coil Land Rovers.

[LowRanger]

Lowranger, If i could grab the dobinson numbers off you that'd be great, next ones i buy i dont want to have to do it again for a while. So the 7100 Bilsteins i hear people taking about, are the mounts the same as standard?

nayto
The part numbers for the springs are RC70-511V rear
and C70-510V front
And you will need to change the lower rear mount and both the front mounts to run 7100 Bilsteins,as they come standard with eye connections on both ends.But I have heard that you can special order different mount???

Wayne

[LowRanger]

No one wants to divulge rates, the crazy part is it only takes a minute in a rate tester.
When I was racing we'd just get a corner weight pad from the corner weight gauges and put them in a press (or drill press) and have a spring rated instantly.
These days any digi scale would do.
(FWIW Kings would wind whatever rate 60mm ID spring I wanted in whatever free length and they always rated spot on, unfortunately they'd also take a set after a while....)

If I had the exact wire diameter and exact # of coils and i can work the rate out, or at least get pretty close.

They actually sound close to what I'm using in the front anyway, (17" free length, 220lb/in) I was just curious what they classified as 'flexi'


Rick

I just went out and checked the springs.
The fronts are 11 coils and the diameter of the wire is 16.5mm,which allowing for paint thickness would make it 16mm.
The rears are 12 coils and the wire thickness is 19.5mm.Making them 19mm thick.

I also checked the springs that I took out,they were 15 1/2" and the ones I put in would have been close to 17" I estimate.

And the new springs are progressive:angel:
When I ordered them,I was told that they were the same as def-90 Sams.With obviously the larger diameter 110 rear springs.
Regards

Wayne

[flagg]

Rick

I just went out and checked the springs.
The fronts are 11 coils and the diameter of the wire is 16.5mm,which allowing for paint thickness would make it 16mm.
The rears are 12 coils and the wire thickness is 19.5mm.Making them 19mm thick.

I also checked the springs that I took out,they were 15 1/2" and the ones I put in would have been close to 17" I estimate.

And the new springs are progressive:angel:
When I ordered them,I was told that they were the same as def-90 Sams.With obviously the larger diameter 110 rear springs.
Regards

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

What engine do you have? do you find the spring rates to be good / well suited?

Cheers