How brand loyal are you?

[OLR-067]

So the question goes if we had available here the derviative manufacturers products such as the Iveco Massiff, Sanatana PS-10 and Morattab Pazhan with good dollar savings compared to defender would you jump ship. Here base 110 $48k..give or take...Morattab price from Lr-mad site...110 dual cab.....for US$20k....or AUD$21k.....ummm...thats alot for the coin

Are they considered "Land Rovers". Ok we know they are technically not LR, just derived from them and it is not exactly a oranges with oranges thing....leaves etc... Personally looking at the Morattab site I think i would give them a go....I think they still embody the spirit to a degree...

::: Morattab Mfg. Ind. ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ::: (http://www.morattab.ir/main_en.asp'status=gallery&catID=4)

http://www.lr-mad.co.uk/morattab.html

SANTANA MOTOR S.A. (http://www.santana-motor.es/SantanaMotor/porta.htm)

IVECO Massif | Suv-like power output, truck-like strength (http://www.massif.iveco.com/)


paul

[rick130]

Much better engine in the Massif than the current 110/130 one IMO, it's a real truck engine pinched out of the Daily.

Not sure on the rest of the driveline as i don't know what Santana (who assemble it for Fiat/Iveco) use these days but yeah, I'd look at one if I was in the market for a new 4x4, the 110/130 has gone backwards for a work truck in so many areas since the eighties.

[Landy Smurf]

i wouldspecially being young where every dollar counts alot

[HangOver]

if you could buy one here in Australia for AU21k I'd be selling my daily driver to get one. So sure I'd buy one the iveco because of the engine.

Its hard to get anything bigger than a Getz for 20k !

*edit* they have a pig ugly front end though

[ugu80]

But would their factory quality control be up there with Land Rover?:Rolling:

[alittlebitconcerned]

I'm loyal to good service providers and companies who value their customers, so yeah.. I'd definately be interested in a alternative.

[pc3]

I definitely would.....I bought a defer over cruiser simply cause I needed a dual cab but wanted live axels etc like the 70 series.... My only option was/is 130 twin cab defender. Problem with defers is there premium price tag and hit and miss quality. In saying that other manufacturers are having issues, you want Thai built Toyota hilux for same money as the rover ?

The defer really needs the tdv6 or 8, stronger driveline more regional support and they'd out sell toyota 10 to 1 IMHO.

The good points of the defer is out of the box you don't need lift or Tyres etc, there ready for outback as is.

[Blknight.aus]

not very, I'll go (and my dollars tend to follow) to wherever the best gear for the job for the availalbe funds is.

[rick130]

But would their factory quality control be up there with Land Rover?:Rolling:

:lol2:

[isuzurover]

Much better engine in the Massif than the current 110/130 one IMO, it's a real truck engine pinched out of the Daily.

Not sure on the rest of the driveline as i don't know what Santana (who assemble it for Fiat/Iveco) use these days but yeah, I'd look at one if I was in the market for a new 4x4, the 110/130 has gone backwards for a work truck in so many areas since the eighties.

I looked under a new one in france a couple of years ago. The rear axle is much bigger than the one in the Puny (and hypoid) - looked similar to an H260 in size. Front is rover size.

I think the build quality would be better than the Puny.

The only thing I don't like about the iveco/santana is it still has leafs...

[Hymie]

For the dough I'd get an Iveco, the Santanas have a pretty good reputation as well. Don't get me wrong, I love Landrovers but money talks, look haw many Great Walls are selling at the moment.

[d@rk51d3]

At 20k, I'd jump in one.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Hmm...well...I am quite brand loyal...I own Land Rovers because they are Land Rovers and its with Land Rovers that many of my childhood memories are linked. I didn't even consider any other brands when buying my two.

But if I was after a vehicle, not to replace my Landies but perhaps as a work vehicle, or for when my Landies don't work (like now:p) they would certainly get an early look in at that price.

[sashadidi]

From Memory there were some of those Iranian ones in the town where my wifes family live in russia , very basic and tractor like Like a \Uaz/ Gaz jeep but possibily even more 'tinny" in build etc, was a while ago, Clean 32 may have seen these in russia
there was also a post from a Russian site on here the moderator has a Pazhan look at picture in Post 3 Link here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/55596-message-russian-vse4x4-club.html

I hope to visit their club next year while in russia and maybe see Lake Ladoga off road in St Petersburg and wll look out for those vechiles
http://www.ladoga-trophy.ru/

[carlosbeldia]

Massif and PS-10 have had a lot of trouble due to the engine, axle and transfer elements. Problem was so evident in the Santana that Iveco decided to took the production to Italy, but it seems there have been even more problems.... just repeatin what I have been reading in spanish sites.....

[carlosbeldia]

Besides, if you have one of these..... you are buying the replica of your dreamed car.... not enough fair for me........ I'd only like scottish whisky, anything else is not whisky, no matter how good it seems...

[sashadidi]

Massif and PS-10 have had a lot of trouble due to the engine, axle and transfer elements. Problem was so evident in the Santana that Iveco decided to took the production to Italy, but it seems there have been even more problems.... just repeatin what I have been reading in spanish sites.....

yes heard Iveco has big problens from Italian contacts also, cars replacing turbos lots of problems

[Reads90]

Had a good mate that had a land rover garage ( well still does) in the uk

They were Dealers for the Santana and only had it or a year and they gave it up because of the problems they had with the cars. Made land rovers build quality look very good

The only thing that worked on them was the engine the gearboxes were the worse bit. Had no end of problems with them

But in my mind they are like the range rover sport. Just shows you can't afford a real one. But the prices on Here make it look like it is half the price if a defender when in the uk the are only about $5 to $10 grand less than the defender


Ali

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rick130]

Interesting comments on reliability.

The engine/gearbox in the Massif is different to the Santana, the Massif has the latest Euro IV 3.0 litre engine and six speed g/box (ZF ?) out of the Daily truck, the Santana is using an earlier (smaller/less powerful) version with a 5 speed ZF 'box.

[OLR-067]

The 21k price was for the iranian jobby off the lrmad site....I believe that the sanatana stormforce(new PS-10) is around same as defender as advertised in LR mags.

[Hymie]

What gets me is that in the Land of the Wrong White Crowd, (New Zeelund), you can buy them but you can't in Oz.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hmm...well...I am quite brand loyal...I own Land Rovers because they are Land Rovers and its with Land Rovers that many of my childhood memories are linked.
<snip>.I can't say that I have much brand loyalty, not only do I own Land Rovers, I also own a couple of Range Rovers and shock horror even an International (now Iveco).

So I could see a Massif in my future!

[d@rk51d3]

So I could see a Massif in my future!

A Massif what?

:angel::wasntme::p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A Massif what?

:angel::wasntme::pOh Hang on???

Did I mean a Mastiff?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/1601.jpg

Now I'd prefer one of those, to the leaf sprung one of these!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/09/1602.jpg

[PAT303]

I'd buy one and then every time a real one drove past I'd wish I hadn't.I have no complaints,my Defender has been good to me and better yet the boss is going to let me spent some long overdue money on it,can't wait for them M&M seat covers. Pat

[samuelclarke]

No thanks. Part of the reason I own a Land Rover is the brand and history...you don't get that anywhere else.

Also my Defender is over 18 years old and still going strong. I'm planning on doing a full (and I mean full) rebuild in the next 1-2 years and I fully expect it will give another 20 years. There aren't many that can match that in this disposable car era.

[Didge]

You''ll all have women wearing burkas and have rags on ya heads if ya start giving em ya money!!!!!! (apart from the fuel - that's bad enough)
They've already invaded us and it'll only get worse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lolk at England and France!

[rick130]

You''ll all have women wearing burkas and have rags on ya heads if ya start giving em ya money!!!!!! (apart from the fuel - that's bad enough)
They've already invaded us and it'll only get worse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lolk at England and France!

Are the Spanish and Italians invading ?? :eek:

Cool, a Trattoria on every street corner,and paella's for brekky :D

[rick130]

Only just clicked on the Iranian website for a looksee.

Politically I wouldn't want to give the Clerics, Mullahs and Ah-my-Dinner-jacket any encouragement at all (remember, they are about to stone a woman to death and are trying to build the bomb :() but is the Pazhan built under license or just a straight rip-off ?

Anyway, and did anyone else notice the front diff ?
It's a Dana. (or equivalent)

http://www.morattab.ir/binary.asp?picname=/GALLERY/102107063854.JPG&bordercol=535353

Might only be a 30 (which are about as strong as a Rover, they are tiny but at least hypoid) but interesting nonetheless.
BTW, they don't flex much in the front end.

[VladTepes]

I want to know how they get away with such blatant design copying.

[isuzurover]

No thanks. Part of the reason I own a Land Rover is the brand and history...you don't get that anywhere else.
...

If you look you might find that Santana have been building Landies for almost as long as Land Rover have themselves.



You''ll all have women wearing burkas and have rags on ya heads if ya start giving em ya money!!!!!! (apart from the fuel - that's bad enough)
They've already invaded us and it'll only get worse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lolk at England and France!

OMFG - please tell me you didn't really type that dribble.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I want to know how they get away with such blatant design copying.Iran, just like Santana in Spain, PMC in Enfield NSW and Port Elizabeth in South Africa were the major Land Rover CKD assembly and manufacturing plants.

This is likely just a development of that production, probably when Jaguar Rover decided to remove production from them just like they did to JRA out at Moorebank. Except the Iranians did something about it rather than just sitting back and accepting the fact!

Looks like they are actually improving the designs instead of going backwards like the P38a diff.

[disco2hse]

What gets me is that in the Land of the Wrong White Crowd, (New Zeelund), you can buy them but you can't in Oz.

Massif? No you can't. I even phoned the National Sales Manager at Iveco to ask why not, his answer was that they are only concentrating on the large trucks and a few Daily vans. There are no plans to sell the Massif in NZ.

If I had the chance I'd be in like Flynn.

About the Iranian stuff. Never seen those here, but they do look interesting.

Edit: PS. Don't be confused by the All Blacks advertising. There were two brought to NZ for the promotional shots a few years ago. They were then shipped back again.

PPS. I remembered one of the reasons. I think there are no RHD Massif's, but I could be wrong.

[scrambler]

I could be wrong here, but I believe that the Series 3 design was sold to Santana and then development continued to form the base of the PS10 and then Massif. Santana then sold the Series III design to Morottab who developed it in a different direction, possibly with inspiration from a Defender but the main reason it looks so much like a Defender is it is based on a licensed Series III design. I think it would be pretty hard to sue anyone for design breaches over a coil-sprung version of a 1958 vehicle design. The best Land Rover could do would be to keep them out of developed markets, which they seem to have done.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I could be wrong here, but I believe that the Series 3 design was sold to Santana and then development continued to form the base of the PS10 and then Massif. <snip>Santana were a factory producing Land Rover under licence. They produced a 6cyl engine based on the Land Rover 2 1/4 litre engine and the 110/County models sold throughout the world were using a 5 speed gearbox designed and built by Santana (LT85). They also produce an LT230 built under licence with selectable 2/4WD in place of the centre diff. You can even use the Santana selectable drive system in your Defender LT230.

Remember we were pressing panels from the 1960's and right through to the 110's. PMC/JRA were also using locally produced mechanical components like Rover diffs produced by Borg-Warner and axles by DuFor and dare I say it Isuzu supplied engines. JRA Moorebank were tooled up to build the coil sprung 110 when production ended in the late 1980's, it is likely that Iran was similarly tooled up.

It is a small step to migrate to alternative (even more reliable) power plants than the Tdi series of Land-Rover items and manufacturing licenced (even unlicenced) copies of transmissions similarly not a problem.

You can see a Dana type front diff and the rear diff appears central so perhaps they are using a Dana Jeep transmission as well.

[Didge]

If you look you might find that Santana have been building Landies for almost as long as Land Rover have themselves.




OMFG - please tell me you didn't really type that dribble.

HAHAHA! I knew I'd elicit some sort of response like that. In fact, of all the Middle Eastern people, the Iranians (or Persians as the ones I've met like to be called) are the most likeable and inoffensive. It's only "Ahm a dinner jacket" and the revolutionary guard that are militants from what I've read. I really was just having a joke. Hey, why don't we start building them here, but fix up all the faults? Who's up for starting an Australian company building a faultless Defender that runs on the smell of an oily rag and is a mechanical leap ahead of the current one?

[scrambler]

HAHAHA! I knew I'd elicit some sort of response like that. In fact, of all the Middle Eastern people, the Iranians (or Persians as the ones I've met like to be called) are the most likeable and inoffensive. It's only "Ahm a dinner jacket" and the revolutionary guard that are militants from what I've read. I really was just having a joke. Hey, why don't we start building them here, but fix up all the faults? Who's up for starting an Australian company building a faultless Defender that runs on the smell of an oily rag and is a mechanical leap ahead of the current one?
Sure - how much money do you need?

[sashadidi]

Santana were a factory producing Land Rover under licence. They produced a 6cyl engine based on the Land Rover 2 1/4 litre engine and the 110/County models sold throughout the world were using a 5 speed gearbox designed and built by Santana (LT85). They also produce an LT230 built under licence with selectable 2/4WD in place of the centre diff. You can even use the Santana selectable drive system in your Defender LT230.

Remember we were pressing panels from the 1960's and right through to the 110's. PMC/JRA were also using locally produced mechanical components like Rover diffs produced by Borg-Warner and axles by DuFor and dare I say it Isuzu supplied engines. JRA Moorebank were tooled up to build the coil sprung 110 when production ended in the late 1980's, it is likely that Iran was similarly tooled up.

It is a small step to migrate to alternative (even more reliable) power plants than the Tdi series of Land-Rover items and manufacturing licenced (even unlicenced) copies of transmissions similarly not a problem.

You can see a Dana type front diff and the rear diff appears central so perhaps they are using a Dana Jeep transmission as well.

guess only problem would be that none of those more desirable engines would met our emissions regulations and so are cut out of our market
Friend wanted to bring near new tdi (2001) build (found in holland ) no chance as not emissions 4 regulation engine !!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

guess only problem would be that none of those more desirable engines would met our emissions regulations and so are cut out of our market
Friend wanted to bring near new tdi (2001) build (found in holland ) no chance as not emissions 4 regulation engine !!!If we were going to build an Aussie Defer, most of us would be wanting to stay with Isuzu engines and probably their gearboxes. We know that Isuzu have EuroIV compliant 3litre TD engines and will be undoubetedly have upgraded ones in the pipeline.

[Reads90]

guess only problem would be that none of those more desirable engines would met our emissions regulations and so are cut out of our market
Friend wanted to bring near new tdi (2001) build (found in holland ) no chance as not emissions 4 regulation engine !!!

Mmm don't know how that was as my 95 tdi came into Aus in 2005 and was not tested for emissions. No body even looked at the engine

I was told it goes on the year it was made regs and not the year you import it so a 1971 diesel Landy would still be able to be imported into Aus today as it would have to meet the Aus 1971 regs and not the regs of today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Didge]

Sure - how much money do you need?
Open ended question that one! I reckon we could take an old Def, put a tiny diesel (say 0.8 to 1 litre) in it to turn some good sized alternators/ generators to power electric motors, one on each wheel (constant 4 wheel drive), revamp the suspension (got some ideas in mind there) to achieve the same clearance as those portals and get maximum ground clearance and wheel travel. Greatly reduce the weight and wear and tear components, seal it up so it doesn't leak, sound insulate it and install as standard all the usual add ons we desire. Whadya reckon? So really, for a prototype, not huge amounts of dough, but to engineer properly a lot more than I can afford. We'd need a sponsor.

[sashadidi]

Mmm don't know how that was as my 95 tdi came into Aus in 2005 and was not tested for emissions. No body even looked at the engine

I was told it goes on the year it was made regs and not the year you import it so a 1971 diesel Landy would still be able to be imported into Aus today as it would have to meet the Aus 1971 regs and not the regs of today


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
sorry talking about New Zealand we are soooo.. emissions friendly here and lead the world in adding extra taxes on fuel etc under the guise of saving the planet ( so population will accept them) yet it only goes to the big black hole. if you have ownwed it say in Uk privately for 18 months you can bring it in still but not a one off purchase

[RFollia]

Just to clarify matters
-Santana had the rights to use the Series III platform. They lost the right to use the "land rover" badge on their vehicles from 1987 on, when they were marketed as Santanas.

-The Santana chassis had always been like the Series II Land Rover, made of four plates welded. The Thomson-type box-sextion used from the Series III onwards was never used by Santana in their Series type vehicles

-The Lt85 box was a Santana design, sold by them to LR (Santana had good experience in gearboxes, as they built nearly all them for Citroën to use in the Spanish assembly plant in Vigo up to the 80's).
-Santana were pioneer to fit front disk brakes, from 1981 in all Series.
-The alpine windows were introduced by Santana.
-And some engineer claims the Disco 1 was designed by Santana (albeit with leaf springs). I have yet to see the blueprint but hope to see iy some day.

Come 1987 and Santana needs desperately a new product. Agreements with rover are over, they build the tiny J410 under licence and a revamp is needed

The SIII design evolves in 2 lines of vehicles (with a confusing name)
1.- 2,5 and 3,5 (according to engine size, the 4-pot diesel engine or a 6-pot by Santana design), the workhorse ones. Leaf springs, front disk brakes, 4 speed gearbox taken from SIII. Flush bonnet and front end like the Iranian pazhan

2.- 2,500 and 3,500 (same engines) luxury ones. SIII chassis, 5 speed LT85 gearbox, glassfibre roof (no condensation), cloth interior (same as a 90 or 110 county) carpeted, front disk brakes, leaf springs (parabolics) and wider axles (stretch the SIII axles to have the same dimnensions as the defender ones) and fit some nice wheel spats or arches as well.
A very nice spare wheel carrier on rear door was fitted as standard

1989 and the 6 cyl engine, (which was a 4 cylinder rover engine with 2 more cylinders, developed by Santana and Ricardo engineering) was dropped.

1994 and Santana is bankrupt. Production is stopped and all assembly lines, lock stock and barrel are sold to Morattab Mfg limited in Iran (who by the way had been building CKD Santanas form the 80s) together with spare parts for 10 years approximately

As they don't have supplies of engines and gearboxes they fit whatever they can find.
So Morattab did not copy Rover or Land Rover or Santana. Morattab just built the same cars Santana was building in the late 80's and early 90s.

2000s. Morattab just develops the range, adds the 3000 V6 engine and transmission from the Mitsubishi Pajero 1st generation and upgrades the suspension to coil springs.
Current axles fitted to Pazhans don't look like rover ones.

2002.- Santana revives, the PS10 is unveiled, boasting an Iveco engine and the Lt85 gearbox (too much torque for it) hence the problems with gears, cases stripping and so on.
As they had sold all assembly lines to Iran, all tooling had to be remade from scratch and the company was in dire necessity of funds, hence the haphazard looks of the dashboard in the first examples.

2004.- Santana upgrades the PS10 or Anibal in Spain fitting the 6 spped ZF gearbox from the BMW x5.
2006.- Santana unveils the PS10 Short wheelbase (longer than an 88", almost same dimensions as the 3 door Nissan Patrol from the 80s). Stood in prototype format. Seen in the 2006 Geneva motor show.

2008.- Agreement with Iveco. Iveco helps to update the egines to EU4 and EU5 and gets the right to sell santana vehicles as Iveco MAssif. Santan retains their name for military variants (many of them powering spanish army and Romanian as well).

end 2010.- The economic downturn makes Shareholders decide to close the assembly lines. Last vehicles rolled from the assembly lines in 2011. Agreement with Iveco is cancelled.
Some protoypes were made using the name Santana again, but was too late.

The PS10 had some very clever arrangements, as the body floorpan was a 1 piece welded steel one, all bodywork except for the loadbed was steel (but with a very poor rust protection), the chassis was very good but manufacturing necessities made dispense of the old series II type in favour of a Thomson-like type (as the Disco 2). Some chassis breakages in the front had been heard of.

You can see it in youtube as "Santana ANibal" that was teh name given in Spain. PS10 stood for export.

It has been said the assembly lines have been sold to a Korean group so we may hear something about them in the near future.

I've lived the Santana story since 1992, when I bought mine. One of the last 1000 built and the only one in Spain with the 2,5 petrol engine (all sold in Spain were diesel)

Cheers from Spain
Robert

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just to clarify matters
<snip>
-The alpine windows were introduced by Santana.
<snip>
Cheers from Spain
RobertThanks for the interesting facts about "Metalúrgica de Santa Ana" (Santana), however there is at least one bit of information which conflicts with Land Rover history. If Santana received a licence to build CKD kits in 1958 but only started to produce their own models in 1968, how could they have introduced alpine windows which were fitted to Solihul built series 1 stations in 1955 and were standard on SII 109 Station Wagons worldwide in 1957?

Diana :confused:

[VladTepes]

Bear in mind the overseas price will eb almost certainly cheaper than what the asking price here would end up....

[Michael2]

How many companies will be building Defenders after 2015? and capture a market for aftermarket bolt ons for older (original) Defenders?

Would I buy one (of the alternatives) though?

I reckon second hand luxury is better than new mediocrity.

I know "luxury" might apply to old Range Rover vs new Land Cruiser or Pajero, but let's in the Defenders case use it to denote a level of robustness (I can't say workmanship).

[slug_burner]

I like the bigger back door on the wagon on the Santana PS10 ANIBAL youtube vid.

I note they were careful not to show a side view after they loaded the pallet of cement bags into the back. I think the poor thing would have been dragging its backside.

They show a 2.8 Tdi sticker on the back, I immediately though of the International engine from Brazil but then again Iveco might supply a 2.8 Tdi as well.

[RFollia]

Hi all,
The first Santanas i'm not sure, but rolled out of the production line between 1958 and 1960. They were plain Series II, not the IIa. I've seen the number 12th off the production line, and it's in very good health. I've also seen one of the earliest (don't have chassis numbers or plate numbers to give the exact date of road registering) but Santana certainly began churning out LRs from the late 50s.
Besides, all Series Santanas had a 2 piece rear door, similar arrangement to the Series I station Wagen (86 or 88") so you could get rid of the roof and keep your rear half door in the summer...

There are lots of SAntana material here
Santana Dateien (http://www.croy.at/)
from an Austrian enthusiast. All Santana material for the PS10.

Happy reading -and downloading-
Robert

[Beckford]

On a scale of 1 to 10? TEN.

Once I pay off my Defender, I plan to trade our Commodore in on a new Discovery! :)

I then want to put a Mulgo Conversion on the Defender and set it up permanently for touring. :D