Disco 4 Engine System Failure Warning - beware!

[Phil]

Disco 4 Owners beware!! Beware of the "Engine Systems Failure" warning! We travelled for 6 hours towing a Van from Queanbeyan and got this warning message while the vehicle was under some strain going up Moonbi Range. Along with the message came a severe loss of Engine power, down to about 30%. This is DANGEROUS! If one happens to be going up a hill (which is apparently when this fault occurs, when the vehicle is under strain) and you are passing a slow moving semi-trailer (common in this country) and you lose power, what happens when a quarrie truck driven by a cowboy comes over the hill towards you?

LRA dealer response was that the vehicle's spare battery system somehow affected this, but as I have electronics qualifications, I know this is absolutely incorrect and a cop out, so, if you are in this position, assert your rights! Funny after I rejected this notion entirely to LRA (not the dealer) they started to mumble about the "other messages" from the computer, Injector problem indicators, etc - now that's more like it!! Wake up LRA technical!!!!

Supporting my contention is the fact that this is NOT AN UNKNOWN PROBLEM. I know of one other person in Australia who has had this problem, in fact I personally only know of this one other owner, so we are batting 100% batting present! In his case, he hooked up his Van in Canowindra, and had the problem going up Toowoomba range, funnily about 6 hours later!! Sound familiar? One of the people from LRA actually suggested that there may have been another in South Australia, but I have no data on that.

A Disco 3 mate (has already ordered a D4 and I think is a little worried) searched some overseas blogs and also found this is not an unknown problem. I am informed there have been several instances of this, at least in Europe.

Message to LRA: This is dangerous and I would suggest you seriously consider a type RECALL.

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, as that has been my experience to date; they have tried to blame a totally independent third party system, they have apparently not investigated the repair history done on the vehicles in this country which have exhibited this fault (when I contacted the dealer where the other repair was done, he had not heard from LRA) and LRA's "current" view is that they should change the computer rather than upgrade the software, which is the way all the other instances of this fault have been cured.

So, Disco 4 owners, BEWARE!! If you have this problem stand up for the correct repair and full evidence it has been done and completed successfully.

If anyone else has any experience with this matter, I am all ears!!

[mowog]

Did you have Q093 done on your D4 before you towed your van?

Some facts about the conditions that caused this might be handy as well.

Temp on the day.
Weight of van.
wind conditions.

I recently finished a 4000klm trip with my Caravan that involved a number of very steep climbs. I had no issues at all.

Things do happen sometimes and thats the luck of the draw.

[Phil]

Thanks Mowog

Yep, Q093 has been done. At least I am told it was. That was a previous and different power loss problem I also experienced. This problem is another one in addition to the one Q093 supposedly fixed.

I don't think the "luck of the draw" applies when there are so many instances of the same problem.

True that most vehicles will probably never have this problem, but just one is too many, particularly when its mine, and it is dangerous, I was behind the wheel at the time!

Thanks for the conditions suggestions, but they should not have an effect if the vehicle is operating (set up) correctly for Australian conditions.

At the time outside temperature was below 20 degrees, no wind, van weight was 1840kg, well below the 3500kg "claimed" capacity of the vehicle.

[mowog]

I had a power loss problem after Q093. But on the return visit I assume they fixed the loose pipe that was dumping boost. Because the problem went away.

On my trip daytime temps were around 25deg I had head wind conditions and some very steep climbs. The van weight was around 2300kg.

[Phil]

Was the loose pipe apparent immediately?

My Q093 was done a few months ago and the D4 has worked well (no heavy towing though) since, so I doubt that is my problem but the suggestion is received with thanks. I will pass it on to those who have my vehicle at present. Any suggestions welcome!

It was only under strain this new power loss problem happened with my vehicle, and then only after 6 hours. If it were a loose pipe after the turbo actuator replacement in Q093, I would have thought it would show up earlier.

One additional thing: Even now, without the Van attached, the vehicle works well, with apparently full power, even though I can tell it is not working "in the same engine management mode" as it was before the "Engine System Fault" fault flagged.

[mowog]

The problem I had after Q093 was immediate.

I drove home in very heavy traffic... Something didn't feel right but I had no chance to poke it a bit.

The next day my wife (lead foot) drove it and she called me asking why the D4 was down on power. It was significantly down on power with no warning lights.

The dealer re-flashed the car and claimed to find no other issues. But the power was back.

[CaverD3]

There were some problems with the software change when the 'enhancement program' was done on the D3s. Sometimes it did not take and had to be re-done. Could be a software issue after Q093 but it looks like LRA has decided to change ECUs in case it is a hardware issue.

[Tombie]

It is known for the Dual Battery installations to cause quirks with the modern systems in the D3/RRS/D4...

Hence Traxides LR approved kit...

Std (Redarc / Surepower / Pirahna) kits can distribute power causing the vehicle to go into a system shut down mode to preserve the basics.

These include suspension dropping, ICE turning off etc...

So it does have a real potential...

To get on here in a big brash font saying it happens everywhere and is a known issue is akin to saying dont use tyres...
Theyre known everywhere to blow out...

Losing power overtaking is troublesome - yes... But not to the dramatic point you're making - sorry..

I've had a Commodore do exactly the same thing passing a road train.. Wasnt nice, but is easily sorted by braking and slotting back in behind.

Get your vehicle checked and be happily on your way :cool:

[drivesafe]

Hi Tombie, Phil has my kit fitted and I am very thankful Phil also has a good background in electronics otherwise there could have been loads of totally unnecessary problems for him and myself.

There is a lot more to the incident and although LRA did seem to do the right thing, it’s not my place to say anything, but I will say that the dealership that “FIXED” the problem needs a bloody good kicking and don’t blame Phil for his stile of warning.

[Tombie]

Hi Tombie, Phil has my kit fitted and I am very thankful Phil also has a good background in electronics otherwise there could have been loads of totally unnecessary problems for him and myself.

There is a lot more to the incident and although LRA did seem to do the right thing, it’s not my place to say anything, but I will say that the dealership that “FIXED” the problem needs a bloody good kicking and don’t blame Phil for his stile of warning.

Thanks DS...

Just was a very "fire and brimstone" post....

Phil, my apologies to you for what came across as abrupt....

Bloody dealers... Hopefully your future motoring will be enjoyable.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Tombie, Phil has my kit fitted and I am very thankful Phil also has a good background in electronics otherwise there could have been loads of totally unnecessary problems for him and myself.

There is a lot more to the incident and although LRA did seem to do the right thing, it’s not my place to say anything, but I will say that the dealership that “FIXED” the problem needs a bloody good kicking and don’t blame Phil for his stile of warning.


Tim
I had a chat with TimNZ a few weeks back about non genuine options.
I suggest you contact Tim,about his woes.He told me that your "approved" gear isnt and will result in a no warrantty job.
His warranty was cancelled due to aftermarket shocks fitted to a Puma.THEY caused differential failure!!!! Send Tim a PM for more info.
Andrew

[stig0000]

ok,, so we no that the car gose into " power safe mode" when it detects a problem with the system, would you rather the car loose power but still be driven or everything all at once and stop the engine,,

you will loose PAS/brake assistance/ and other things, and then you will be were ever the car stops, hopefully a safe place,

or be able to atleast drive the car allbe it at 30kph to the next safe place off the main rd or into a survo and call LRA,;);)

i no the problem is annoying BUT saying this needs a recall??? do you even no what the problem was??

it could of been somthing simple and your off on your happy way again,

as to the battery systems, i have seen countless bogged sys and they do play havoc with this cars as we all no, and it is cos of this bogged ones LR says take them all off and then we will look at the car,

we have now had a few d3/d4 with batterys systems fitted buy approved elects and the car has failed, they stand there ground saying its the car NOT the batt sys,

we prove buy taking it off and the car is fine, but that is not saying ALL battery systems are fitted incorectly,

im with tobbie on this one,

[drivesafe]

I had a chat with TimNZ a few weeks back about non genuine options.
I suggest you contact Tim,about his woes.He told me that your "approved" gear isnt and will result in a no warrantty job.

Hi Andrew, and your correct, my gear is not approved but is on LRA’s recommended accessories list, as sent to all the dealers.

When LRA tested my gear, they told me it did not cause any problems and when I asked about it being officially approved I was told that this is never done with third party accessories.

Cheers for the heads up anyway Andrew.

BTW, there is a device that replaces a fuse in Toyotas, that causes the alternator voltage to increase by 0.6 to 0.7v and these must be removed before the Toyota goes in for a service or if it’s discovered, the warranty is voided.

So if you have any mates using this device, warn them.

[gghaggis]

The D4 is different to the D3 in terms of both the charging system and the protective circuits employed. Dual battery systems that work with the D3 would not necessarily be (even tacitly) approved for the D4. I know that quite a few dealers have been reporting blown ecu's on D4's with dual battery systems, to the point where LRA are now stating they won't warrant a vehicle with such systems fitted.

Tim's Traxide system is certainly the best suited one I've come across for the D3, but maybe another look at it's suitability for the D4 needs to happen with LRA's approval?

Cheers,

Gordon

[mowog]

So the D4 in question here was running a modified tune at the time this problem happened?

[stig0000]

thats easy then, they have enough money to pay for it when it brakes cos it has a chip,

and the worse ones of all are the dpchips, had few problems with them lately,

prity much, asking for trouble, ;)

[Duck's Guts]

I have one of Tim's Traxide systems installed in my D4, complete with the aux battery in the original D3 under bonnet location.

It's been in operation for 4 weeks now, including 1 week with fridge drawing from it. No problems experienced.

[drivesafe]

Hi Duck’s Guts and thanks.

the way the SC80LR works means that the vehicle, D3 or D4 simply has a bigger battery.

While there may be problems with the way other brands of DBS work and I can’t comment on that, but if there is a problem with the way mine works then there are going to be huge problems for D4 owners down the road when their cranking battery finally fails.

To date, not one single problem has arisen with any D4 using my gear, here or overseas and I suspect that my gear, again because of the way it works, is actually resolving problems.

I have had so many D3 and D4 owners tell me that they have had repeated “Low Voltage Warnings” prier to having my gear installed, but not a single warning once my dual battery system is in place.

This situation may also occur with other brands of DBS but I have not followed up on anything but my own gear.

About 6 months ago, during the installation of one of my kits into a Range Rover Sports, the auto electrician fitting the gear, told owner once the kit was fitted, they had tested the set up and had flattened his battery down to something like 11 volts and the SC80LR did not isolate.

How they supposedly achieved flattening the cranking battery down to 11v in just an hour or so is of interest to me but anyway, the owner had been getting “Low Voltage Warnings” prior to the installation and with what the auto electrician had been spinning him, he was now very nervous about taking him RRS on the holiday he was about to do.

I informed him that if he had so much as a “Low Voltage Warnings” come up with out actually having low batteries, I would refund his money.

He has never been in touch so I take it all is STILL well.

The problem is that there are loads of experts out there and the next time you get a flat tyre, don’t tell your dealer what brand of diesel fuel you were using or you will be told this is what caused the flat.

You may the tyre story is B/S ( and this one is ) but that’s how bad things are now and not just with LR. Now having stated this, I do know of at least one DBS system that has caused heaps of problems with the D3 and would most likely cause even more problems with a D4, but these systems separate the cranking battery after supposedly charging it and then charge any auxiliary batteries.

Why on earth you need to do such a ridiculous operation in the first place is beyond me and with the HUGE alternator in the D4, you can easily charge 4 large batteries in a low state of charge at the same time and I have done just this on a number of occasions with my wife’s D4 and not a single problem with my gear or the D4.

A side note, I am so fed up with the poor quality of work “professionals” ( mostly auto electricians ) are doing that I am now installing my systems in D3s and D4s.

[CaverD3]

A manufacturer cannot void the whole warranty. They have the right to refuse a warranty claim if the failure has been caused or contributed to by non approved accessories or modification. The claim that a diff failure is due to aftermarket shocks would not wash if there was a dispute and the owner pushed the issue, there is also an anti-competition isssue in that case.

Adding anything to your vehicle will run the risk of a warranty repair refusal and could cause you hassle with LR in the event of problems. If they claim it is something else causing it you may need to fight to get the claim approved.

[jonesy63]

The problem is that there are loads of experts out there and the next time you get a flat tyre, don’t tell your dealer what brand of diesel fuel you were using or you will be told this is what caused the flat.

That reminds of of the first TWO times that the high pressure fuel pump died on my D3 - the dealer service manager and later dealer principal were blaming the brand of fuel I was using.

The fact that it later turned out to be a faulty designed part shut them up. They never mentioned fuel on the third occasion it died - due to faulty installation by them. :mad:

[gghaggis]

Hi Tim,

Just in case you got the wrong idea, I wasn't saying that your Traxide system may cause problems (mine is still running perfectly!) - just that LR are lumping all DBS into the same basket. I was suggesting that whatever you did to get your system listed as a D3 accessory by LR, may have to be done again for the D4. That way LR has less to bluff with when trying to get out of warranty claims.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Jamo]

Please note:

A manufacturer can do whatever they want with the EXPRESS WARRANTY that they provide with the car....

BUT...

They CANNOT void the IMPLIED WARRANTY as provided under the Trade Practices Act unless they can prove that the modification directly caused the failure.

The Implied Warranty covers 'fit for purpose', 'driveability' and 'safety' aspects.

If you're having trouble talk to the ACCC!

I myself was quite successful in this area!

[CaverD3]

:BigThumb: Jamo

The express warranty is still a contract and they will have plenty of clauses to get out of it.

There is also the 'reasonable expectation' legal argument, as part of the implied warranty as Jamo pointed out.

As an example of extremes; if the gear box fails after three and a half years and 70,000 km it could be argued that it is a 'reasonable expectation' that the gearbox would last conciderably longer. However it would not be a resonable expectation for a bit of plastic trim to last more than five years.

This why when push comes to shove most manufacturers will give goodwill.

[drivesafe]

OK folks, some followup.

First off, Gordon, I took your post exactly how you meant it and agree that some testing is needed.

But first some relevant info.

I’ve spent some of the day ringing a few LR dealers I deal with and I have left a message with the relevant section at LRA.

I will have to do some followup with LRA and all fairness to them, this is not their doing.

So far only one dealership stated that they had had a problem with an ECU and the problem did not stem from the use of a DBS set up or even the LR make. It seems that the ECU was damaged through improper operation, and from that I thing the inference was that someone had been doing some welding or carrying out other non acceptable work practices.

This means that while I have yet to find a single problem relating to a faulty D4 ECU, this is not to say it hasn’t happened, it’s just that those in the know, don’t know of any problems.

Next, there is, so far to my knowledge, no ban on the fitting of DBS, of any form.

Now while inaccurate info could very well be harmful to my business, the greater problem, if we don’t all watch what we say, the D4 itself, is going to be branded unfairly as a difficult vehicle to work on or with.

When I get some info from LRA, I’ll pass it on.

My personal opinion as to the way LRA treat their customers, to date, since Ford took over, they have been pretty good.

How some of the dealerships treat LR customers does seem to leave a bad taste in many LR owner’s mouths, but I’m very thankful I have lucked onto one of the better dealers, but again, this is just my opinion.

[Phil]

OK, I am now back home after a trip through country NSW in LRA's hire vehicle and thanks for all the info, and thanks DS for your contribution - I could not say it better myself.

Yes, as DS says I am an Electronics Engineer with 43 years experience at the top end of that profession, which is why I chose the extra battery system I did by the way. So, I rely on a little professional knowledge when I suggest that ANYTHING properly connected to a battery which has over 900Amps cranking capacity, in parallel with a 180Amp Alternator is never, and I mean never, going to be able to alter that electrical condition in such a way as to be able to cause any ECU fault indication - period, not without a result of boiled batteies, burned out wiring, lots of greasy brown smoke and very embarrased owners.

Manufacturers of all motor vehicles have a vested interest in supporting these cock and bull stories as it gives them a very convenient escape when the going gets tough.

NO accessory can affect the performance of any low power system (like the ECU) connected to a battery system of this capacity, be it DS's or any other manufacturer. If the ECU is that sensitive, then there is a very major design fault with its own power supply and/or signal line filtering!!!

OK, that is cleared up. You have to remember that this fault occurred after 6 hours of continuous driving, so every battery in the vehicle would be as near fully charged as possible, so why would we get an "Engine system failure?" based on low battery voltage? Is that not a good question? Duh! Most probably because something in the ENGINE failed would be my guess!!!! Certainly not an extra battery which is totally removed from the ENGINE.

So, don't let anyone tell you that these extra battery systems can affect the ECU - it just will not happen. To test myself, I asked two other people in Electrical Engineering departments at Universities as I do a lot of work with them and their views were exactly the same as mine - if anyone tried to pull that one, they both suggested they would last less than 10 seconds in court - they even offered so they could have some fun!! No add-on can cause such problems in these conditions.

OK, what can the fault be? It is obviously an "Engine System Failure" because that is what the car said. I have to say LRA are doing all they can to sort this out, and I credit them with the effort as they have and do appear to have recognised the validity of what I say above. I am told the problem is that there are some 70 odd sensors in the Engine which, alone or in combination, can give rise to this general "Engine Systems Failure" warning.

Complicating this is the fact that the full information on computer problems are not held with dealers, only LRA technical, so any fault of this nature means the vehicle has to end up back in Sydney if the front end dealer does not have the information to effect the repair. Mine is in Sydney now. In addition, it appears as if the fault logging files in the ECU are rudimentary at best, and may even be deleted from time to time, or by software upgrades, so the real cause of the fault may never be known. I am sure that as the vehicles develop technically, this aspect of fault identification will improve. At least I hope it will.

I know my original post was a little "strong", Toomie, but the fact remains that a loss of power in any vehicle is a dangerous thing. If it is a single event, I agree with you, the luck of the draw.

However, as there is a history of it in these vehicles if you search the blog sites, there is a cause to wonder if there is a type problem, not just a series of single unrelated events. If it is unrelated events, that is fine, but if this does have the potential to be a type problem, I make no apologies for saying that the work should be done to see if the recall option is one which should be considered by LR. I certainly would not feel very good if I decided not to say something and then one of my LR mates ended up creamed!

[gghaggis]

Phil, I presume you've covered the obvious, but just in case ....

If the engine overheats, the main ECU algorithms will act to reduce power and prevent head damage. This can be quite dramatic, and will flag an "engine systems" fault. In my case (towing a large caravan up the Darling Escarpment in Perth in 42deg heat), the fan was not working correctly. Although viscous, it is also under electrical control and the pins on the connector had come loose. So although I saw the fan working everytime I opened the bonnet, it wasn't until I put the car under load that the issue developed, as even on a hot day, the viscous action alone was sufficient to keep the engine within temp range.

And of course, if there was also a fault with your temp gauge ...........

Cheers,

Gordon

PS Hmm, I would have thought a spike through the earth circuit _could_ affect the low power devices, much like when you jump start or (in the extreme) weld on a vehicle. Could some DBS systems, if not properly wired, conceivably do this?

PPS ... especially noting that the D4 has a voltage monitor on the earth terminal that we are told is rather sensitive - ie don't draw large current via the battery -ve. The D3 didn't have this.

[Phil]

Hi GG, Thanks for that good advice and yes I did. The temp was under control, gauge in the normal state and it was actuallu about 12 degrees outside, just when Victorias was having floods, so temperature is not a problem - that should also come up with the temperature alarm, which it did not. It never did reset anyway, even when I rebooted the ECU manually.

Yes, welding on a vehicle and all bets are off, that produces all sorts of spikes which can kill low power ECU's if they are not well armoured. Optical isolators do this, but I do not know if LR has gone this route, I would assume not yet. But no, Earth connectors were nice and tight!

I understand there is a negative terminal current sense on these vehicles, between the battery negative and earth, which is why you should not jump start across the battery, my understanding and correct me if I am wrong anyone who has better information, is that you have to jump start from battery positive and to chassis earth, not battery earth.

In this case, no, none of that would apply, but really good positive suggestions and thanks for those, well said and suggestuions appreciated. Don't get me k\wrong here, this is a bloody good vehicle, I love it and I am not slagging it at all, but just this particular one has a few tricky problems.

[Graeme]

IMO LR's designers have the wrong priority regarding faults that could possibly damage the engine. There appears to be no warning to allow the driver to get out of or not get into a dangerous situation before looking after the engine. My TD5 D2 had the same dangerous logic whereby no warning was issued before cutting power which left me on the wrong side of the road having passed a vehicle but with no power to get a safe distance in front, so had to cut in whilst slowing! I have a tractor that will shut down if it overheats but gives a 30-second warning that the engine will stop unless the over-ride button is pressed to allow the tractor to continue if, for example, it is on a railway crossing - and that's a 1998 tractor! LR, wakeup!

I find it intriguing that LR for the US market include instructions on how to restart the D4's engine on the move to overcome/clear the reduced power message whereas for other markets the intructions are to stop the vehicle first. I have practiced this procedure in anticipation, but will be of no use if such a fault occurs whilst overtaking.

Edit: Mine had the reduce power msg once whilst driving along my lane so restarted the engine without stopping.

[Graeme]

NO accessory can affect the performance of any low power system (like the ECU) connected to a battery system of this capacity, be it DS's or any other manufacturer. If the ECU is that sensitive, then there is a very major design fault with its own power supply and/or signal line filtering!!!
There was such a problem with early D3s & RRS but it was inappropriate logic in the software giving the appearance of an unsuitable DBS. A software update made the pussy-footing obsolete. My simple VSR setup works fine!

[Phil]

Thanks Graeme,

EXCELLENT comment, a 30 second warning before power cut would sort out most of the danger part of this issue (60 seconds would be better). We used to call them "idiot lights", but not everything old is wrong!! An audible warning would be useful too. It is too late when the power is already cut.

I agree 100% Land Rover, WAKE UP!!

[Phil]

Hi Graeme,

Yes, the whole red herring of the "faulty DBS" is simply to inject doubt into the discussion for, well, who knows what reason. It is not for me to speculate at this time.

Again, LR, WAKE UP, this is a red herring and you should be ashamed of even thinking about it.

[Phil]

Just a quick reply to Tombie2.

Looks like Graeme has already experienced my original danger scenario when he lost power. The only thing (luckily for him) was that the quarrie truck was not actually coming the other way!

[SWH]

Phil,

I too would be interested to get more details of the age and spec of your vehicle and the third party dual battery system you have.
In any event it is obvious the LRA need to take this report very seroiusly. I look forward to your futher posts updating the situation, so if necessary some pressure can be brought to LRA. Thanks for your post to date.

[Phil]

Hi SWH,

My D4 is a stock standard HSE ordered in December, 2009, delivered mid April, now has about 10,000 km's on the clock. The only add-ons are the dual battery system (refer to "drivesafe" for details as advertising is not allowed) and an LED blocker suggested by "Sneigy". I have found both to be perfectly good for the job they are asked to do.

When delivered, the dealer added eRust and a 12 pin tow plug. Make sure you tell them NOT to remove the black 7 pin one if you want it though, they seem to think that is a logical thing to do, and don't ask if you want it to remain. So make sure you explain exactly what you want done or you might find they have done something silly! It took me a while to get the whole thing back on track, so just a warning, make sure you explain in single short words what is to be done, as logic does not rise to the fore when the "technicians" find an alternative which is easier for them.

I also have oval profile Rhino racks (I think they call them Euro racks), and they were not recommended by anyone, so maybe they could be another reason to void the warranty given comments about equally innocuous DBS systems.......

While on the subject of Rhino racks (the oval shaped ones (not the square ones), if you buy three to go on the roof, the kit recommended by Rhino says you need two spacers on the front set to get all three level. This is incorrect, you actually need three spacers, so make sure that before you leave the shop to go home to get the third pair and the longer bolts!!

I will try to keep this thread updated, but I have not heard anything from LRA for 2 days now, but I also know a replacement ECM is a big job, in fact I think it may be a VIN specific job, so replacements may have to come from the UK. I have asked that question of LRA, but not had a response. If anyone out there knows, I would appreciate the word!

[gghaggis]

The ECM is keyed to a particular VIN - so it would have to be programed (presumably in UK). I guess that would take a few weeks. Are they sure it's the ECM that's at fault?

Cheers,

Gordon

[camoo]

Phil,

So far so good with my 4 week old 3ltr SE. I am just about to put an order in for the rhino rack 3 bar with a 2.1 ally tray. I am interested if you have a picture of yours as I am not 100% convinced on whether to get the 3 bar with a 2.1 tray or 2 bar with the 1.8.

Any suggestions?

David

[Beamin]

Phil. You wild and crazy fool. Trying to overtake with Rhino roof racks. You should have known better!

[Phil]

Hi gghaggis,

A VIN specific replacement is what I suspected, which is obviously not good news. I think they are actually shooting in the dark though and you make a good point.

Every other vehicle I have heard about with this problem, and I am hearing about more and more the more I search, have been fixed with software, not ECM, so it may be that one just has to keep making waves until one of the "technicians" who have heard about the problem actually has an epiphany.

[Phil]

Hi Camoo,

I don't have a tray, but if you are getting one, and it is with the three Euro racks, make sure you have the third set of spacers for the front rack and longer bolts, or it will be 10mm too low. I don't know if the same applies to the square racks.

[Phil]

Beamin, yes, of course, Rhino racks would have caused an Engine Failure!! What a fool I have been!!

[camoo]

Phil, You not the first person to warn me about this... I got 3 rhino quotes and only 1 picked up the 3 spacers and longer bolts.... just goes to show the type of dealers that are out there...

David

[roamer]

Phil, You not the first person to warn me about this... I got 3 rhino quotes and only 1 picked up the 3 spacers and longer bolts.... just goes to show the type of dealers that are out there...

David

I have rhino rack 3 bar, you can get a taller foot for the front ones instead of
spacers.
Cheers Ken

[Duck's Guts]

I have rhino rack 3 bar, you can get a taller foot for the front ones instead of
spacers.

Yeap, 50 & 80mm high legs

[Phil]

Hi all,

The standard kit has the taller feet, but they say you stuill need two spacers - untrue, you need three, even with the taller foot

[Phil]

Back to my original reason for warning people about the "Engine System Failure" alarm.

I have to report that after two weeks, I have not had any meaningful response from anyone at LRA (who are managing this matter) to even suggest what is potentially wrong with the vehicle.

I can only assume they do not know! So, if you have this problem, may I suggest you don't let up like I did - make sure you become the squeaky wheel which needs the oil!

I have a caravan in the middle of NSW, no way to tow it home, a vehicle which does not work which I have not seen for two weeks, no technical response or advice from LRA, even though I have asked several times and $100,000 out of pocket. Additionally, I have business commitments which require this vehicle or one like it and they will cost me a lot of money by the end of next week. At present, I have to say I am concerned this will get legal quickly, which I don't want, but it appears I am being forced in that direction!

[CaverD3]

Have you asked LRA for a loaner. The dealer should be able to provide one if not ask for one from the commercial loan vehicle fleet. They are able to do something but are they willing?

[RoverLander]

Have you asked LRA for a loaner. The dealer should be able to provide one if not ask for one from the commercial loan vehicle fleet. They are able to do something but are they willing?

Sorry to hear about your problem... a nightmare situation.

When I purchased my D4 I was so concerned about reliability that I made the dealer commit in writing that they would provide a loan car at their expense for any time the D4 was in for anything but normal maintenance. I wanted to ensure that if I was suffering then so were they!

[ozscott]

Sorry to hear about your problem... a nightmare situation.

When I purchased my D4 I was so concerned about reliability that I made the dealer commit in writing that they would provide a loan car at their expense for any time the D4 was in for anything but normal maintenance. I wanted to ensure that if I was suffering then so were they!\

I love it...putting their money where their (inordinately large) mouths are.

Cheers

PS. Any car that costs upwards of 75k should have that guarantee as standard...

[roamer]

Back to my original reason for warning people about the "Engine System Failure" alarm.

I have to report that after two weeks, I have not had any meaningful response from anyone at LRA (who are managing this matter) to even suggest what is potentially wrong with the vehicle.

I can only assume they do not know! So, if you have this problem, may I suggest you don't let up like I did - make sure you become the squeaky wheel which needs the oil!

I have a caravan in the middle of NSW, no way to tow it home, a vehicle which does not work which I have not seen for two weeks, no technical response or advice from LRA, even though I have asked several times and $100,000 out of pocket. Additionally, I have business commitments which require this vehicle or one like it and they will cost me a lot of money by the end of next week. At present, I have to say I am concerned this will get legal quickly, which I don't want, but it appears I am being forced in that direction!

Phil, you have gone quiet :confused:
Are we to assume fault been fixed :D
or that LRA's normal arrogance has disheartened you :(
or legal action has started :o
Cheers Ken

[Phil]

Hi Ken,

Lets just say it has not all gone away just yet. More soon.

Phil

[Phil]

This is a long post, sorry everyone, no 5 second sound bites here, but hopefully some good information.

To all who have an interest in this matter, we have now concluded by many REAL and extensive electrical tests that the second battery system we have on our DISCO 4 cannot possibly have ANY effect at all towards an "Engine Systems Failure" warning, which you may recall caused a serious and dangerous loss of power, even AFTER the Q093 update.

We have conducted many electrical tests, but in this forum, they include a comprehensive set of checks in conjunction with the manufacturer of that second battery system, and those tests as well as the others ALL return zero possibility that an Engine System Failure can be possibly connected with that second battery system. Other professionals in the electronics and electrical industry concur.

So, gals and guys, if you have this problem, don't let some desk clerk trained in repelling warranty claims tell you some BS story to get you to go away. Don't let modern "customer dis(sic)-service" sell you a pile of garbage. Ask any Electronics or Electrical Engineer at any University (get someone independent, not me) and I am confident you will get the same story. Stand up for your rights!

More later on that, as it will all be resolved at some stage, regardless of the method. I will not let this go away until the truth is out!

However, the story continues. I still have computer problems after the last minute Power Control Module update LRA did several weeks ago. I am sure that update (NOT the disconnection of the second battery system) is very likely to have fixed the power loss problem (we still have more checking to do there to verify that, but that checking is now back under way, and 40% complete). Stick to your guns with this one if you have the same problem, get the PCM upgrade and do not accept the vehicle until you have the proof this is done. Do not accept the vehicle back until you are given a copy of the vehicle "feedback" file from the computer which describes the vehicle condition including any error codes in everything which led up to the failure. You can open it in Windows Notebook, but the error codes need translating, I may now be able to help you with that translation.

My advice says you are entitled to that information, so demand it! In fact, my advice suggests you are entitled to that information after EVERY service, regardless of the situation, and it is a very important part of your resale value for any "fly by wire" vehicle. So, I suggest you demand it EVERY time you have your vehicle serviced.

But, back to my problem.... Now, we have an intermittent "Smart Key not found" error immediately after that PCM upgrade. LRA have chosen to ignore this problem for more than 3 weeks!!!!! Not a whisper of a reply. One wonders why this problem would appear, as the Smart Key also has little to do with the Power Control Module. So, why did this happen? I can only surmise.. Why the lack of response? Maybe I need to surmise some more... More on that later too, as the facts reveal themselves......... (Yes, indeed)

So, will I go away? Not a chance. This, I believe, is firstly a safety problem with those who have not had the PCM upgrade and are towing something over about 1500 kgms and secondly it is one going to the core of true client service. I believe I have been advised incorrectly by LRA from the beginning of this problem, and I will not "go away". LRA GM, we know you are on here, but are you listening? I am sure you know who I am and my telephone number.

This is a problem with people who are supposed to fix problems. The vehicle is good, as I have always said. But, LRA seem to be unable to respond properly to fix problems. This is a staffing and sub-contracting problem! Unfortunately this problem goes all the way to the top, the General Manager of Land Rover Australia. That person has decided (maybe I should say they have "determined" if the monitors of this site know what I mean) they will not respond either, even after addressing them (he/she) directly.

Too much Chardonnay in the "behind closed doors" boardroom maybe?. Maybe there isn't a GM......??? Who knows in "modern", "customer service", "open door", management "systems"? It has been more than 3 weeks, they seems to be ignoring their warranty obligations...

One out of left field while I am at it - does one not wonder why the price of these vehicles has not changed at all, even though the exchange rate has improved against the pound in leaps and bounds since the local price was first "determined"? Maybe more Chardy is needed in Epping! Maybe someone should start a thread on this one! Over to someone else who feels the prices should not be where they are given the exchange rate.

When one buys a vehicle, warranty is part of the package, or the supplier says it is, but LRA seems to be having problems supplying that essential parameter. Maybe they need appropriately trained staff!! I don't know, but I believe LRA support is not working as it should be now. So, get to know your dealer and support them as much as you can in the search for real and meaningful information from LRA - that is my suggestion! You pay $100,000 for a vehicle. One of the expectations is that you get commensurate service. I have personally not seen any evidence of this from LRA, (I exclude the dealers from this view, as they (seem) to do what they can in a difficult situation)

I stress, this does not appear in any form to be a problem of any of the dealers technical staff, I have submitted our problem direct to LRA, as this new "Smart Key" problem appeared only after work LRA technical staff themselves are "supposed" to have done on our vehicle to fix our power problem All they seem to have done is shift the problem to the Smart Key recognition. The continuing answer is silence, and I think will remain that way until some sense is injected into this discussion. Maybe others outside LRA with real investigative responsibility need to know about all these dangerous power loss problems. What does everyone out there think?

[CaverD3]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This is a long post, sorry everyone, no 5 second sound bites here, but hopefully some good information

Who do you think you are? Colin? (BBS Spy) ;)

Dealers seem to be getting frustrated with the lack of communication and support from LRA.
With me with all businesses, it is not if something goes wrong but how they deal with it when it does.
LRA could be working night and day to resolve the issue, LR HQ could be dragging their feet or they could be trying too. The problem is they have not communicated what is going on. Seems like they stuck their head inthe sand at the begining.

Agree about supporting dealers. You may pay more for servicing but when something goes wrong they will back you. If you service elsewhere you cannot be surprised that they are less enthusiastic when you turn up with a warranty issue.

[clubagreenie]

Wonder if you drove it through their front window and put it down to a "power gain" issue if they'd deny it?

[DiscoWeb]

[QUOTE=Phil;1350231][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One out of left field while I am at it - does one not wonder why the price of these vehicles has not changed at all, even though the exchange rate has improved against the pound in leaps and bounds since the local price was first "determined"?

Phil,

Hope your power issue gets sorted, I trust that male/female/non existent LRA GM is suitably cowering in a corner hoping you will go away but realising you will not. :wasntme:

Whilst I will not start a new thread about currency movements I would say, would you be happy to pay more when the $aud moves negative ?

About 18 months ago I think the $AUD was down in the 60 cents range Vs the $US, so you $100k D4 would have cost a hell of a lot more.

There are swings and round abouts in the FOREX game and regular price fluctuations based on exchange rate would not be something I would want to see in pricing of vehicles.

Obviously if it stays high for a long time I would expect to see some pricing benefit but do not hold your breath.

Regards,

George

[Phil]

Hi George,

I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD. I may be wrong here of course, but if it were the USD, the story would be not much different as both currencies have moved similarly over the time period in question.

In any case it really does not matter, it is a choice for every person buying a vehicle if they are willing to pay the price for what they get. Lots of factors come into that decision of course and we won't go into that.

However, price gouging, if it occurs anywhere, is not very attractive wherever it occurs. I am NOT saying that is what is happening at all, but one does tend to wonder about the sustained high price of ALL imported vehicles given the lower tarrifs and strength of the Australia Dollar.

With LR, the facts are that the local price of the D4 series was prepared in August, 2009 before a distributors meeting in Melbourne. At that time, the exchange rate was A$1.00= UKPound0.5148 (maximum in August as I do not know the exact date of the meeting). One would assume that LRA was making a profit at this rate. That is actually the highest it had been for as long ago as my records take me, and that is back to January, 1990.

Now, the exchange rate is A$1.00=UKPound0.6189, as of close of business last Friday afternoon. This translates to me as an improvement in the exchange rate of some 20.4% in favour of Australian buyers.

Now, I know that actual fixed costs to importers have to be covered, and factory cost structures also have to be covered, but a decrease in price of zero is simply not sustainable, particulary seeing the UK list price has not changed.

One wonders, doesn't one?

As far as prices changing with exchange rate, I personally have no problem with that at all, it certainly happens with most other goods we buy and sell internationally (look at fuel, iron ore, coal, bananas, wheat and TV's for instance), so I don't see why it should not happen with vehicles - it would actually make them more competitive, and many would say that is not a bad thing.

You are right, I am not going away on the other matter, and thanks everyone for the support.

[Bushwanderer]

SNIP
I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD.SNIP

Hi Phil,
I'm sorry, but your premise is wrong. Vehicles are priced according to what is seen that the market will bear.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[CaverD3]

I think you will find they would have taken out some form of exchange rate insurance or bought futures. So they have some certainty of cost. Means they cannot put the price down and would not have to put it up if it went the other way.

[gghaggis]

Hi George,

I would assume the vehicles are priced against the UK Pound seeing that is where they are made, not the USD.

The cost in some other country is almost irrelevant - in a fiat economy, your purchase power is based solely on your local currency - that is what you are paid in and it's (idealistically) independent of any foreign currency.

You can't compare absolute cost of a D4 in the UK to the price here. About the best you can do is compare relative costs to other items in the same country.

Cheers,

Gordon

[d3viate]

My D3 had the same loss of power and vehicle lowering this weekend just gone, the warning flashing this time was a park brake fault , at 110kms passing a roadtrain at one time on the road just south of Northampton to Geraldton with people behind me. It happened nearly ten times in the two days. Every time there is a fault with these vehicles they lower and it has happened to me many times usually in the worst place possible.
Groups such as TagaLong tours do not take people with Discovery 3/4s on the CSR now I am told, too many having to be left out there because the default is to lower to the bumpstops.
The people who write the software should be taken out the back and shot like Breaker Morant. Shove all the sofware engineers in a Discovery and send them bush in Australia for a few months if there are any left after that and let me know where they are, not that I would be able to reach them without breaking down again.
Discoverys are made for picking up the kids from school in a city with a (good) dealer. In thirty years of many, many vehicles, never have I felt so disheartened with a car that pretends to be 4X4 for Australia, and my first new one at that.
LRA are as useful as tits on a bull when you have a problem telling you to sort it out with the dealer principal yourself.
I was talking to the service advisor this morning and we talked of your very problem of a second battery in a D4, (as my D3 has every accessory for bush which I thought these were for) he stated because the car monitors the battery it does not like a second battery (after all, why would a 4X4 require a second battery !!) and if you have one fitted it should have a solar panel he tells me !, not charged by the car.
Anybody want a D3 with everything for going bush but actually cant ?:angry:

[stig0000]

My D3 had the same loss of power and vehicle lowering this weekend just gone, the warning flashing this time was a park brake fault , at 110kms passing a roadtrain at one time on the road just south of Northampton to Geraldton with people behind me. It happened nearly ten times in the two days. Every time there is a fault with these vehicles they lower and it has happened to me many times usually in the worst place possible.
Groups such as TagaLong tours do not take people with Discovery 3/4s on the CSR now I am told, too many having to be left out there because the default is to lower to the bumpstops.
The people who write the software should be taken out the back and shot like Breaker Morant. Shove all the sofware engineers in a Discovery and send them bush in Australia for a few months if there are any left after that and let me know where they are, not that I would be able to reach them without breaking down again.
Discoverys are made for picking up the kids from school in a city with a (good) dealer. In thirty years of many, many vehicles, never have I felt so disheartened with a car that pretends to be 4X4 for Australia, and my first new one at that.
LRA are as useful as tits on a bull when you have a problem telling you to sort it out with the dealer principal yourself.
I was talking to the service advisor this morning and we talked of your very problem of a second battery in a D4, (as my D3 has every accessory for bush which I thought these were for) he stated because the car monitors the battery it does not like a second battery (after all, why would a 4X4 require a second battery !!) and if you have one fitted it should have a solar panel he tells me !, not charged by the car.
Anybody want a D3 with everything for going bush but actually cant ?:angry:

so are you telling me you agree that the d3/4 is a unreliable car by put the software people in one and sending them out west,????:mad::mad:

and i am pleased to tell you that NOT every fault with the car will put it on its stops,

[Didge]

Interesting discussion guys. Given that my 95 300TDi Defender has no real electronics and all the problems (AKA character traits) are simple mechanical ones that can be easily fixed, I think I'll stick with it for a while yet (the other reason is that I can't afford a D4 :( )
Wouldn't ya think that after all the sales and feedback these clowns/ boffins in the LR design dept (and marketing dept) have received about the ongoing problems over the decades, they would apply some energy and effort to actually resolving them at firstly a design stage and secondly at a warranty stage to promote their product. If your local tradesman treated you like this mob do, what would you do? Go back? Hardly. They're treating the party faithful like a mob of protestors; mind boggling really.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Didge,
Firstly, I'm as happy as you are for you to stay with your Def. :)

Secondly, I think you'll find that the "warnings" & "modified operation" are designed to minimise damage to the components identified.

You may think that, because you don't have a vehicle producing messages, that your vehicle is not suffering damage under certain circumstances. In such cases, you only find out when a system fails catastrophically.

Good Luck,
Peter

[Gazz]

I am currently in the market for another 4x4 after a long and happy experience with my 300TDI D1 SE but the more I read on D3/4 issues the more concerned I get, the last thing anyone needs is to be stuck in the middle of no were with a random electronic fault especially with the shortage of dealerships in country areas. Not to mention diffs, wheel bearings etc

Landrover what are you doing? :confused:

Gazz

[chuck]

I have now had my D3 for just over 12 months & to date I have not had a problem.
One thing we forget when worrying about the problems is the improvements.

For example I was out with my son in his well sorted D2a last weekend at Mt Disappointment & often I was waiting for him to catch up - this was not a deliberate action it just seemed that the D3 rode with such comfort & eaze compared to the D2a which he drove at a slower speed to be more comfortable.

Mind you this was with my grandaughter & partner in the car who would not have hesitated to tell me to slow down if I looked like going to fast.

In addition on a couple of difficult sections the D3 did it a little easier

I have now owned a 60 series, hilux, D1, D2 & D3 each was a progession in ability & as some can attest on this forum I have not been afraid of getting them dirty.

The biggest single progression was from the hilux to the D1.

In addition dont forget that at the time of release the D1 & D2 were considered to be technically advanced and prone to faults.

Landrover have driven the technology & ability in the 4x4 sector & i guess the offset is sometimes reliability - for example it takes a double locked 76 series to go where an unlocked defender will go.

However having said that it is pleasing to see they are evolving.

Regards

Chuck

[Didge]

Hi Didge,
Firstly, I'm as happy as you are for you to stay with your Def. :)

Secondly, I think you'll find that the "warnings" & "modified operation" are designed to minimise damage to the components identified.

You may think that, because you don't have a vehicle producing messages, that your vehicle is not suffering damage under certain circumstances. In such cases, you only find out when a system fails catastrophically.

Good Luck,
Peter
Hi Peter, mate - point taken. I do get a lot of satisfaction from driving a slow (tends to make me relax), simple vehicle (especially if no one is trying to talk to me) but as I said I do look with envy (ok jealousy) at every Disco 3 and 4 I see on the road. A real nice piece of kit they are and believe me, if I could afford one, I'd have one. My comments are due to the fact that deep, down inside its my way of consoling myself that even if I can't afford the one I like, at least I've got a Land Rover. Oh, and we Def drivers wave to each other ( it's a kiddies, cult thing I guess :p)
cheers Gerald

[Bushwanderer]

Hi Didge,
Thanks for your reply. :BigThumb:

Regarding waves, I've even started to get a couple of Def drivers waving at me. :) Of course, I ignore them. :twisted: (Just kidding.)

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Didge]

chuckle :)

[drivesafe]

bump

Phil, just wondering if you have had any success with LRA yet?

[ozscott]

Nearly drove off the road the other day when a d3 owner waived at me. It was a few months ago. White with bull bar and tyres with some tread. UHF aerial. Has not happened before despite me generously including them in my waiving audience and not since. Discos were more often bought by enthusiasts than now. Having won a few pagents they seem to mostly now get purchased by toffs which makes it comforting to see some fellas on here have a different view of them and their talents when buying. Cheers

[Celtoid]

Nearly drove off the road the other day when a d3 owner waived at me. It was a few months ago. White with bull bar and tyres with some tread. UHF aerial. Has not happened before despite me generously including them in my waiving audience and not since. Discos were more often bought by enthusiasts than now. Having won a few pagents they seem to mostly now get purchased by toffs which makes it comforting to see some fellas on here have a different view of them and their talents when buying. Cheers

I got one of the first build D4s in Oz and was on Fraser Island earlier in the year and here was an identical one sitting on the beach with the owner fishing next to it. I was still in serious permagrin mode and as there weren't many D4s around, I thought it great/weird that the only one I saw all week on the Island was my Stornoway Grey. I tooted and waved.....he looked at me like I was some sort of retard....either that or he was in awe of how beautiful our cars are....LOL!!! Or he was saying "crap....so much for unique"....:)

[oldsalt]

I gave a friendly wave to a blonde driving a black RRS this morning ... and if looks could kill I wouldn't be writing this e-mail ... I must remember my position on the social ladder in future ....:o

[Disco4SE]

I gave a friendly wave to a blonde driving a black RRS this morning ... and if looks could kill I wouldn't be writing this e-mail ... I must remember my position on the social ladder in future ....:o
Doh, think it may have been one of my clients

[clubagreenie]

Things started going downhill in that respect ever since they started fitting 4 doors to Land Rover products. Kids were designed to bounce between the roof and floor, the aluminum makes it softer.

[Celtoid]

Hi Didge,
Firstly, I'm as happy as you are for you to stay with your Def. :)

Secondly, I think you'll find that the "warnings" & "modified operation" are designed to minimise damage to the components identified.

You may think that, because you don't have a vehicle producing messages, that your vehicle is not suffering damage under certain circumstances. In such cases, you only find out when a system fails catastrophically.

Good Luck,
Peter

I fully concur mate,

A member on another thread....one of the Defender ones...was keen to give the D3 a bit of a bashing. He had been to or seen some footage of a staged event in Columbia, where according to him, two D3s failed miserably. I probed further about the spec of the car and the experience of the driver, as I suspect it was running road tyres, was a V6 petrol and may not have been 'locked' or driven properly. Never got a response. Anyway, he was slagging the D3 cause it went into limp mode after getting stuck in a pretty big slippery hole. It may have been a failure but I think he failed to realise that the system is designed to protect a car that I suspect was getting the absolute crap flogged out of it. I'd rather let it cool, master reset (as in switch off and on again) and all is well.....rather than have a catastrophic and expensive failure a few months later. And what's so wrong with getting recovered?

As myself and others have stated before...the technology is here to stay and will get better/more reliable in time. Most modern aircraft, specially military fighters, are incapable of flying without their computers....and contrary to what people might think, they get flogged in the air and on landing.....lots of stresses and vibration.

Reliability stats are slewed easily by many variables....something as simple as a bad batch of light fittings will rate as a failure in thousands of cars. It's hard to work out what the real issues are.

I found it really hard to make my mind up on the D4 cause of all the emotive comments on many websites....some people just blatantly make stories up....quoting failures on D3's that are impossible. It bothers me that some LR owners are just as bad. The worse stories come from people who have never owned or I suspect have never been around a D3/4/RRS....LOL!!!

If there is a serious issue, owners/potential owners should know the facts but speculation, emotive or hearsay comments just muddy the water.

Cheers.

Kev.

[Bushwanderer]

:BigThumb:

[ozscott]

I fully concur mate,

A member on another thread....one of the Defender ones...was keen to give the D3 a bit of a bashing. He had been to or seen some footage of a staged event in Columbia, where according to him, two D3s failed miserably. I probed further about the spec of the car and the experience of the driver, as I suspect it was running road tyres, was a V6 petrol and may not have been 'locked' or driven properly. Never got a response. Anyway, he was slagging the D3 cause it went into limp mode after getting stuck in a pretty big slippery hole. It may have been a failure but I think he failed to realise that the system is designed to protect a car that I suspect was getting the absolute crap flogged out of it. I'd rather let it cool, master reset (as in switch off and on again) and all is well.....rather than have a catastrophic and expensive failure a few months later. And what's so wrong with getting recovered?

As myself and others have stated before...the technology is here to stay and will get better/more reliable in time. Most modern aircraft, specially military fighters, are incapable of flying without their computers....and contrary to what people might think, they get flogged in the air and on landing.....lots of stresses and vibration.

Reliability stats are slewed easily by many variables....something as simple as a bad batch of light fittings will rate as a failure in thousands of cars. It's hard to work out what the real issues are.

I found it really hard to make my mind up on the D4 cause of all the emotive comments on many websites....some people just blatantly make stories up....quoting failures on D3's that are impossible. It bothers me that some LR owners are just as bad. The worse stories come from people who have never owned or I suspect have never been around a D3/4/RRS....LOL!!!

If there is a serious issue, owners/potential owners should know the facts but speculation, emotive or hearsay comments just muddy the water.

Cheers.

Kev.

Kev - we dont know what the specifics of all of that were, but what is your take on why, if the Discovery was getting flogged, it went into limp home mode. I am one of those pesky D2 owners who likes the D3/D4 but is a little intrigued about the limp home protection after logging high miles on D1 and D2 with excellent reliability and no limp home despite heavy towing through DEEP sand in very hot conditions and treating it off road like I stole it. I am not having a go, but just genuinely intrigued about what is being protected and why it needs protecting given that LR traditionally dont overheat offroad when flogged, nor did their ZF auto's overheat.

Cheers

[discomaniac]

Hi,
As for Limp Home mode, I am aware of it, but have never experienced it in over 5 1/2 years of owning a D3 2.7 diesel. Have been in all sorts of off road experiences and towed everything between a Camper Trailer and 2.5t caravan. Never a problem with the D3, now in the first month of owning a D4, no problem with the D4.

Had the Limp home mode activate plenty of times on the D2, especially when you accidentally press one of the buttons on the Key when you are turning it in the ignition. Learnt how to "NOT" do this so I could start the D2 and drive it normally.

So, from my limited experience over 12 years of owning a D1, D2, D3, D4, the only time I have experienced "Limp Home Mode" is when "I" did the wrong thing and pressed buttons on the Key when trying to start it, and that was on a D2, never on a D3 or D4. Technology is getting better from my limited 12 year experience.

discomaniac

[Celtoid]

Guys I have no idea about the virtue of the story, or if true the circumstances, other than what I wrote.

I know that the D4 and I think D3 has it built in. I believe it's there to protect when there is a failure or circumstances are there that can cause greater damage.

I've had my D4 for almost a year now and have never had anything stop it working at all.

I just played with the idea that the guy in Columbia might have been reporting on a car that was ill treated to the extreme. As I said not sure of the FACTS. It's a recent thread on the site "90 110 130 Defender County" "What are the pros and cons Defender v Puma v Disco3/4"

It could be complete BS....I've already aired my comments on how much that craps me off..........

I resent the fact that people create a 'concern' in your mind about the reliability of your vehicle. If it's genuine...it needs to be aired....if it's BS, keep it to yourself! Even worse if it's from another LR owner.....

[drivesafe]

I resent the fact that people create a 'concern' in your mind about the reliability of your vehicle. If it's genuine...it needs to be aired....if it's BS, keep it to yourself! Even worse if it's from another LR owner.....

An't that the gospel?

[DiscoWeb]

Kev - we dont know what the specifics of all of that were, but what is your take on why, if the Discovery was getting flogged, it went into limp home mode. I am one of those pesky D2 owners who likes the D3/D4 but is a little intrigued about the limp home protection after logging high miles on D1 and D2 with excellent reliability and no limp home despite heavy towing through DEEP sand in very hot conditions and treating it off road like I stole it. I am not having a go, but just genuinely intrigued about what is being protected and why it needs protecting given that LR traditionally dont overheat offroad when flogged, nor did their ZF auto's overheat.

Cheers

ozscott,

My take on this is that the limp mode really is a fail safe as a last resort. Where the vehicle senses that there is a problem that will cause a major failure and and so says "ok thats enough lets not blow anything up or break something". Now for me I would rather limp my D3 home wondering what the F$%k is wrong than tow it home from the middle of no where.

Where this gets really frustrating is when you can not find anything wrong and the next hr/day etc it simply resets to normal and away you go.

In saying this I have not had the D3 fail on me, I have had a limited transmission options warning come up as I was climbing some big hills in the Vic High Country but after a little rest it was sweet. Annoying but I preferred a 45 min enforced "tea break" than a transmission failure at the stop of Mt Pinnibar.

Whilst there will always be a few example of failure, with any brand or vehicle I think the D3 and D4 has well and truly proven it self as very capable and reliable 4wd. There is no way it would have been award so many accolades/awards etc globally, year on year if they were not reliable.

I think the point Celtoid is making is the perception they are unreliable is something that seems to be circulated by people who "had a friends dad's mate that once saw a D3/D4" and generally not by those who actually live with them day to day. Seems he is even more miffed by this perception being circulated by those who own other LR brands.

Just my take.

George.

[ozscott]

Thanks Gentleman.

Most of the reliability "stories" spread about LR have traditionally been by those who have never owned them. Part of that was tall poppy cause you used to be able to get a Nissan or Toyo etc cheaper, although in later times that has not necessarily been the case.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

ozscott,

My take on this is that the limp mode really is a fail safe as a last resort. Where the vehicle senses that there is a problem that will cause a major failure and and so says "ok thats enough lets not blow anything up or break something". Now for me I would rather limp my D3 home wondering what the F$%k is wrong than tow it home from the middle of no where.

Where this gets really frustrating is when you can not find anything wrong and the next hr/day etc it simply resets to normal and away you go.

In saying this I have not had the D3 fail on me, I have had a limited transmission options warning come up as I was climbing some big hills in the Vic High Country but after a little rest it was sweet. Annoying but I preferred a 45 min enforced "tea break" than a transmission failure at the stop of Mt Pinnibar.

Whilst there will always be a few example of failure, with any brand or vehicle I think the D3 and D4 has well and truly proven it self as very capable and reliable 4wd. There is no way it would have been award so many accolades/awards etc globally, year on year if they were not reliable.

I think the point Celtoid is making is the perception they are unreliable is something that seems to be circulated by people who "had a friends dad's mate that once saw a D3/D4" and generally not by those who actually live with them day to day. Seems he is even more miffed by this perception being circulated by those who own other LR brands.

Just my take.

George.

:BigThumb:

[PAT303]

I'll put my 2c in.I worked on mobile plant machinery for over 10 years,in that time we changed out countless engines,gearbox's,diff's etc but in the last few years manufacturers started putting fail safe lock outs in thier machines and the failures dropped overnight.Many many times I have had drivers with years of experience call up with problems that aren't problems,such as no gear selection,the reason they could not get gears was the machine was still going backwards when they selected a forward gear so the failsafe cut in.I would much rather have the vehicle tell me it's at it's limit before I ruin a 5K gearbox or run out of brakes etc but the biggest problem is people buy a vehicle with no idea how it operates,they don't bother with the manual or even know how to change a fuel filter or tyre and then complain that the vehicle broke down. Pat

[roamer]

Just to get this thread back on topic, it did start because of a dangerous power shut down,that dealer and LRA seemed to put in the too hard basket, or not interested basket ,when it did not reproduce itself.
Safety modes are great to save expensive parts, but not at the price of putting you in a dangerous situation.
Would be nice for a follow up from " Phil" to enlighten us of outcome. :D:D

[gps-au]

the biggest problem is people buy a vehicle with no idea how it operates,they don't bother with the manual or even know how to change a fuel filter or tyre and then complain that the vehicle broke down. Pat

Oh so true !!

and not only vehicles...:angel:

[Disco4SE]

Hi all, (especially Phil),
Here is what happened to me today.
Towing my 2 ton boat along a straight flat road sitting on 100Klm's and bugger me, the red triangle comes up on the dash with the warning 'ENGINE SYSTEM FAILURE'. The temparature is 32 degrees and the temp guage on the dash is showing normal. I experience a loss of power.
Pulled over on the side of the road and waited for a while. Then drove off very slowly and gently with the warning sign still on.
Hard to say whether I had power back or not as I was nursing it along.
Rang the dealer that I brought the vehicle from and he suggested taking it to the nearest LR dealer for them to check it out. The stealer also suggested that it could possibly be a valve in the turbo.
The nearest dealer suggested that it was OK to drive to them (some 30Klm's away), which I am doing tomorrow morning.
I'll let everyone know the outcome.
BTW: It is a 2009 Oct build D4 SE 3.0.

Interested to know if anyone else has had this problem.

Cheers, Craig

[CaverD3]

Could be this issue?

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - There IS a problem with MY 3.0 litre TDV6 engine (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic55820.html)

[Disco4SE]

Caver3, yes I have seen this on the UK website.
Mine doesn't have the smoke though. Kinda hoping it is a power module upgrade like Phil's.

Will be posting the outcome.

Cheers, Craig

[White D4]

Hi

This happened to me with my 2.5t Caravan in tow, the suspension dropped warning lights were ringing like mad, limited or no engine power. all this while doing 100km on the M5.:o

I pulled over and turned off the engine, did a walk around and then started the car again, all was fine again?

I took the car back to the dealer and they ran a diagnostic check, which according to them came up clear, nothing was wrong!:confused:

It has not happened again.:)

Cheers
paul

[Disco4SE]

Hi all,
Just following up from my 'Engine System Failure' saga.
I went to a LR dealer in Albury and they mentioned that this had happened to one of their customers and by doing a software upgrade (which included a Power Module Upgrade), it fixed the problem.
Unfortunately for me, their computer systems were down and they couldn't do the upgrade, however they did manage to clear the fault code so it disappeared from the dash.
Arrived home yesterday without the warning appearing again.
Have it booked in at ULR to have the upgrade done.
Cheers, Craig

BTW Paul, turning the engine off and restarting it didn't work with mine.

[ozscott]

Is the failure along the same lines as in this test:

Drive Restest - Land Rover Discovery 4 TDV6 SE | Drive Magazine (http://drivemagazine.co.za/2010/drive-retest-land-rover-disco-4-tdv6-se/)

Cheers

[CSBrisie]

Damn, damn, damn. I HATE sitting in the front of a flat bed truck towing a camper trailer with a d4 on the back tray (7100km's on the odo) and having TOYO owners point!!!!!!!!

Up until today - 10 great days in the new D4 towing Adventure Camper Trailer; Adelaide - Swan Hill - Omeo (via Hotham, yes up those steep hills, trouble free!), Wonangatta (Dargo), Ballarat, ....home...well ALMOST, filled up at Tailem Bend and lasted about 10clicks, up first big hill on the SE freeway, cruise on 100km/hr, suddenly big drop in power and "Engine System Fault" warning etc. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We tried starting again, were told by LR Assist to open and close doors 3 times ("to reset computer") all to no avail. So the ignomy of the tray back and pointed fingers.

Sigh

I'll update once cause is known.

On the plus side we had a great holiday and D4 was awesome doing everything especially tracks like Bill Goat bluff etc.

Cheers (need a drink tonight)

Chris

[Disco4SE]

Damn, damn, damn. I HATE sitting in the front of a flat bed truck towing a camper trailer with a d4 on the back tray (7100km's on the odo) and having TOYO owners point!!!!!!!!

Up until today - 10 great days in the new D4 towing Adventure Camper Trailer; Adelaide - Swan Hill - Omeo (via Hotham, yes up those steep hills, trouble free!), Wonangatta (Dargo), Ballarat, ....home...well ALMOST, filled up at Tailem Bend and lasted about 10clicks, up first big hill on the SE freeway, cruise on 100km/hr, suddenly big drop in power and "Engine System Fault" warning etc. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We tried starting again, were told by LR Assist to open and close doors 3 times ("to reset computer") all to no avail. So the ignomy of the tray back and pointed fingers.

Sigh

I'll update once cause is known.

On the plus side we had a great holiday and D4 was awesome doing everything especially tracks like Bill Goat bluff etc.

Cheers (need a drink tonight)

Chris
Hi Chris,
Had mine in at ULR Malvern this week for the Power Upgrade Module, only to find out that this upgrade had been done (along with others) at my last service which was just before Christmas.
No problems since............running like a clock.
Interested to know your outcome.
Cheers, Craig

[ozscott]

Hi Chris,
Had mine in at ULR Malvern this week for the Power Upgrade Module, only to find out that this upgrade had been done (along with others) at my last service which was just before Christmas.
No problems since............running like a clock.
Interested to know your outcome.
Cheers, Craig

Craig, what does the Power Upgrade Module mean? Is it a replacement for the engine's management computer? I love some of the terms some manufacturers use for fixes for problems. When Honda's had some pinging in the new shape Euro's they came out and said this is a problem with the knock sensors not doing their job properly with some of the petrol we get in Australia (ie crap petrol at times). They did a software reprogram and after that if it still pinged they swapped in new knock sensors that they had been testing and developing since the problem was first reported in Australia (a problem that did not affect driveability and was a post combustion sound not a true ping ). They also told Wheels who then publicised it that they warranty the motor for the whole time that the vehicle was owned continuously by the first owner...now that's an engine warranty.

Have LR actually even acknowledged the problem? Have they said it is a fault and what it is exactly? I am keen to know why this is happening.



Cheers

[CSBrisie]

I'll update everyone as soon as mine is ready.

[gghaggis]

I'll update everyone as soon as mine is ready.

Sorry to hear of your woes Chris, are you suspecting the fuel, or was that just a coincidence? This is the third fault like this I've heard of in the last 4 weeks - all towing a trailer or caravan. However, the others seemed fine after a reset. Can you recall the exact messages the car displayed and in what order they appeared?

Cheers,

Gordon

[Disco4SE]

Ozscott,
The power module upgrade is part of the software upgrade.
As far as I am aware, its not a replacement part.
Coincidence that mine happened at 100Kph towing my boat on a flat road.
Cheers, Craig

[CSBrisie]

Nothing yet guys - car is staying overnight.

Only one warning ever came up - red triangle and engine system failure. I had cruise on 100kmhr and it was beginning to labour up the hill we were on so as I dabbed the brakes to cancel the cruise - on came the warning and the power just disappeared. That was it. no other warnings. I tried to reset the computer and checked everything under the bonnet - air filter was "as new" (RAI certainly does its job!) and all else appeared Ok. The car sounded perfect and "rev'd" nicely. But it was down on power as soon as the warning came up. I tried to check the oil (using the dash readout) and it said "not available". No idea :(

I did have some electrical bugs with the dual battery set up - a fuse to the new 12v outlets in the back blew twice - but we think that was as the fridge cord had frayed from constant contact with the fridge slide. We ended up just using camper frridge and accordingly the second battery (read: Thumper in the boot space) was actually disconnected from Traxide system at the time this all happended anyway.

Hope to have some news tomorrow.

I should stress - up til then it was magnificent and the LLAMS Height adjustor was brilliant the whole trip - making some really tough sections of track sooooo much easier.!!

I'll add photos etc later!

[Disco4SE]

Had a poke around the LR UK forum last night and there were a few reports that may link the 'Engine System Failure' warning to ditry fuel.
After reading this I realized that I had only filled with fuel about 15 Klm's prior to it happening.
The guys at ULR Malvern ran all sorts of checks and nothing came up. The vehicle has not missed a beat since????

Cheers, Craig

[clubagreenie]

Dirty in particulate or water? Do they define?

[Disco4SE]

Dirty in particulate or water? Do they define?

No, they didn't specify

[CSBrisie]

Car is ready to be picked up - diagnosis was not certain - possibly a "software glitch" so they had reloaded software and car was running perfectly; and they also noted one of the main battery terminals connectors was loose and they wonder if that contributed to the issue (voltage drop) (quite possible, I hadnt checked them in a while and the connections had been on and off a bit lately with a winch, and other accessories all being added over various weeks). That coupled with the very rough tracks and its certainly possible. Sorry I cant add anything else.

cheers


Chris

[ozscott]

Car is ready to be picked up - diagnosis was not certain - possibly a "software glitch" so they had reloaded software and car was running perfectly; and they also noted one of the main battery terminals connectors was loose and they wonder if that contributed to the issue (voltage drop) (quite possible, I hadnt checked them in a while and the connections had been on and off a bit lately with a winch, and other accessories all being added over various weeks). That coupled with the very rough tracks and its certainly possible. Sorry I cant add anything else.

cheers


Chris

Thanks for letting us know Chris. Good to hear you are back on the road. I hate things where there is a problem but it is intermittent and there is no sure cause found - ie nothing that is fixed positively that was found to be 'broken'. Good luck with it.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Whenever there's a fault, it's always a good idea to first check the battery connections + fuses and if possible, the battery voltage and charging - you can use the vehicle signals panel in the "hidden" menu of the SatNav. Unless of course, the fault is in the SatNav screen :(

Cheers,

Gordon

[CSBrisie]

hidden menu Gordon??

I just picked up the car - "power control module update" words appeared on the invoice.....not the first and I bet I'm not the last!

cheers

[Disco4SE]

hidden menu Gordon??

I just picked up the car - "power control module update" words appeared on the invoice.....not the first and I bet I'm not the last!

cheers

Hi Stornoway,
Sounds like it may have been the 'Power Module Upgrade'. Who knows.
In your case, it has been a pain in the butt. So close to home, yet so far :mad:.
I have had a few minor hiccups since picking up my D4 12 months ago, but I must admit, the minor hiccups are soon forgotten once I get back behind the wheel :).
Cheers, Craig

[brad72]

Whenever there's a fault, it's always a good idea to first check the battery connections + fuses and if possible, the battery voltage and charging - you can use the vehicle signals panel in the "hidden" menu of the SatNav. Unless of course, the fault is in the SatNav screen :(

Cheers,

Gordon

SO is there an easy way to access the hidden menu in the satnav?

[roamer]

SO is there an easy way to access the hidden menu in the satnav?

Try FAQs

[drivesafe]

Hi all and has anybody heard from Phil?

I would love to know how he got on.

[brad72]

Well i accessed the hidden menu and the most useful screens I feel are the vehicle signal form as it displays the battery voltage, the self test screen and the DTC codes screen which gives a description of the fault when each key is pressed.

At least with these at you finger tips if a fault does occur you should be able to jump into the system and check what is going on, well, that's my theory anyway.

The pictures of the vehicle signals are with the ignition off. All the rest are ignition on

I had a good look for the code that would make the car morph into an HSE but alas, I could not find it.:(

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/6443/dscn3381.jpg

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/236/dscn3383k.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4724/dscn3384c.jpg

[roamer]

Video test will bring on rear camera on the move , good to watch tow hitch or cars behind if rear window blocked


Cheers Ken

[Disco4ECUfault]

Hi, have had Engine Systems Fault come up 140kms after picking up demo SE 3.0ltr from dealer. Had 2500kms on clock when i collected the vehicle. Has now been in the dealer for nearly 4 weeks since then. They have bought in new ECU from UK but as of today have been trying for a week to get it to work without sucess. Rapidly losing faith in Land Rover's ability to fix the car!

[Bushwanderer]

Hi D4...,
I feel your pain. :eek:

However, I suspect that it is probably the dealer service guys who may not know what they are doing. :( (Not all Sydney dealerships are at the same standard.)

I hope that you have a loan vehicle as replacement.

Best of Luck,
Peter

[christop]

Not much has been said for a bit on this thread, however i am currently in accomodation (paid for by LRA) somewhere in the 'alpine' region off the hume hwy due to the same fault on 3l d4!
Similiar scenario. 100km uphill, cruise control, loss of power, towing alpaca float. Tried all the recommended resets to no avail so tilt truck tomorrow am to a dealer.
I have read all previous comments and are feeling very nervous about my trip to dealer as soo many differing outcomes.

btw I am 4000 km from home (perth) with animals in my float and don't fancy a breakdown on the nullarbor when i (hopefully) are given the all clear.

nervous i am.

Cr

[CaverD3]

Where are they taking it?
I hear the Canberra dealer is much improved.

[christop]

Hi caverd3

Being from perth i honestly had no idea where i was (apart from Hume hwy) and where I would end up.
LRA got someone to meet me - as it turned out - at alpine and direct me to accomodation at alpine. Tilt tray the next morning to a narrellan? ford dealer who has taken on the lr service thingey! very helpfull. Chucked D4 on computer which came up with a fault code and unknown cause - go figure! Reset and away i went. Just got home to perth via Melbourne and adelaide and anothe 5000 k's with no other probs, so pretty happy with that.

ps
i can't fault the landee and it's driveability.....biased i know

Cr

[jonesy63]

Resetting a fault code somehow fixes problems? Sheez...

[ADMIRAL]

Resetting a fault code somehow fixes problems? Sheez...

Works on any computer even an Apple !

[jonesy63]

Disco 3/4 are not computers... they have them - which capture physical faults and log the error codes. Resetting the codes just removes the symptom - it doesn't cure the physical cause for the fault to be registered in the first or subsequent case.

[roamer]

Maybe the fault was the computer,hence reset cures problem.

Cheers Ken

[stig0000]

Maybe the fault was the computer,hence reset cures problem.

Cheers Ken

hes right,

some times, internal software throws things out if it matches a perfect condition blah blah blah,

[Redback]

So this is only the 3.0lt having this problem:confused:

Baz.

[drivesafe]

So this is only the 3.0lt having this problem:confused:

Yep and so far, as far as I can workout, it’s not a mechanical failure but more a software issue.

[Scouse]

So this is only the 3.0lt having this problem:confused:

Baz.You should be safe ;).

[Redback]

You should be safe ;).


ssssshhhhh;)

[christop]

Being thinking further about my fault message.
I was towing in cruise (S) up a long rise. The auto failed to change down when it began to labour - 1800 rpm down to about 1400 i reckon.
I then shifted into manual mode 5th and then 4th. Car didn't like that, as warning appears.
IMO the computer then registers a problem..... my concern is the auto didn't change down a gear initially.
Interestingly i reckon it failed to change once previously on my trip.
Unfortunately due to the torque this engine has and the smoothness of trans you don't notice the vehicles behaviour under narmal.
A mate said also that jeep recommends not to tow in cruise in his new cherokee so...
LRA didn't have any answers apart from an unknown fault with a code.
They did look after me though. Cr

[gghaggis]

It is recommended that you don't tow (significant) loads using cruise control for good reason. The CC is quite aggressive and can easily exceed the EGT envelope set by the engine management.

Cheers

Gordon

[christop]

Ta Gordon
It does all make some sense, and basically i am happy to drive in a different manner. I would however be interested to know why the auto doesn't (or didn't) change down in this scenario?

Chris

[drivesafe]

Hi Gordon, have you heard of anyone actually damaging anything or is it as has been the case with all of these scenarios that I’ve heard of, that there is no damage, just an operational programming error, or what ever?

[gghaggis]

Hi Gordon, have you heard of anyone actually damaging anything or is it as has been the case with all of these scenarios that I’ve heard of, that there is no damage, just an operational programming error, or what ever?

In most cases it seems to be a software issue, triggering the "Engine Systems Failure", which reduces power until a hard reset is performed. Virtually all cases involve towing + cruise control, or towing and consistent hard acceleration.

I've heard of one case where there was turbo damage, but it's not clear if this resulted solely from a specific instance of towing and CC.

Cheers,

Gordon

[tonys tank]

I unhappily joined the "Engine system Failure" club yesterday.

towing my 3.2t boat along a flat road, accelarating from 80 to 100. D4 had just returned from a service in Perth that day. now on a tilt tray to be shipped back to Perth, mates Toyota had to tow the boat home (will be hearing about this for along time.

hopefully LRA will have an answer and my D4 back soon.

[AnD3rew]

To the OP, I haven't read all the other posts in between.

I have to say that over the ownership of three Disco's a 300TDi, a TD5 and a D3. My experience of LRA is very much in line with yours, they try to cover issues rather than issue recalls, they immediately try to blame the owner or something else before considering the product may be at fault and they require extreme pressure and threats to finally come good on what should be their obligations.

My only advice when dealing with them is stick to your guns and never give up and use whatever threats are necessary because that is the only language they appear to understand, customer satisfaction appears to be an entirely alien concept to them.

This brings back the discussion I had with them on my 300 TDi when the timing belt let go and they claimed the reason they hadn't recalled them was that it was not a safety issue. Well I can tell you that when mine let go it siezed the engine and caused all four wheels to lock up. The only reason it wasn't fatal was that it was going up a hill on a fairly quiet suburban street. It was extremely lucky it hadnt happened on the previous few days when I had been driving from Melbourne to Brisbane overtaking semi trailers at 110 kph at 2am.

They originally claimed it wasn't a known problem (the car was about three weeks out of warranty). It was only the fact that I knew someone who worked for a land rover dealer that I knew it was well known and that there was in fact a kit made to correct the problem that allowed me to call their bluff on this.

[uttanutta]

I have read this thread with interest, In January my D4 3l went into limp mode with the dreaded red triangle appearing with Engine System Failure. I lost my vehicle to LRA for 6 weeks. My Blog on D3 UK noted nearly each day what happened and what didnt happen.
Basically, I was travelling on flat terrain Cruise Control set at 104klm and I lost power. It took six weeks for the ECU to be reprogrammed and after weeks of constant angry confrontations with LRA and Land Rover itself (I flew to Sydney and confronted the "Customer Service" Manager himself at LandRover Headquarters in North Ryde, nice bloke by the way and got things done), my car was returned "fixed". At that time this had not been my only fault reading. I got a pile of them, Gearbox failures, injector failures, steering columns locked, low power etc. Each time I turned the car off and got out resetting, these went away. LRA was notified about these, they told me to advise the dealer at next service. (by the way none of these showed up in the dealers printout). I do have a traxide system fitted but it was not hooked to a second battery at the time of failure.
While my D4 was away "being fixed" I purchased an FCR. Immediately on the vehicles return I continued to get fault code readings spasmodically. I played with the new FCR and cleared them. None were a substantial warning so I noted and cleared in case they returned. None repeated and none left a red or amber triangle. These warnings continued up until about late April and have stopped..... completely!!!
I have just returned from a trip from Goondiwindi to Darwin around Litchfield, Kakadu down to Uluru Mereenie Loop and back to Goondiwindi via Hughenden and Winton, a total of 10,880 kilometers and I did not have one hiccup or warning in that entire 3.5 weeks. I used the traxide second battery system continually as the Waeco did not leave the car as we shifted camp daily.
I know it would be too much to think that it has worked itself out but, fingers crossed and touching wood, it seems to be going OK.
It is a fantastic vehicle, but it is disappointing to know that the customer service backup does not match the product they sell. I have said it a thousand times and no doubt will say it a thousand more but the word "Assist" should never appear on LRA's shingle.

[CaverD3]

Maybe reconnecting the Traxside kit to the other battery fixed it? :lol2:

[uttanutta]

Maybe !!! LOL.

[AnD3rew]

All I can say is that I own Land Rovers in spite on LRA not because of them.

[drivesafe]

Hi uttanutta, you say you didn’t have the second battery connected.

Did the problem stop at about the same time you did connect the second battery, like say with in a week or two?

Also. is your auxiliary battery an Optima Yellow Top?

I have my reasons for asking.

[RosscoDisco]

I am currently in Katherine on our Long Service leave trip (3 months) towing a Jayco Swan camper trailer and also got the dreaded red triangle with Exclamation symbol). I wasn't towing at the time and the warning was simply - Restricted Performance. the car went but now power or accelleration. We stopped and looked for the Darwin dealer details (off for first service shortly) and there was a long, audible beep and we turned the car on again and the system warning disappeared and all is running beautifully.

[clubagreenie]

I'm thinking above LR Assist's office there's a big red triangle with Restricted Performance below it.

[uttanutta]

Hi uttanutta, you say you didn’t have the second battery connected.

Did the problem stop at about the same time you did connect the second battery, like say with in a week or two?

Also. is your auxiliary battery an Optima Yellow Top?

I have my reasons for asking.

Drivesafe,
I dont have the Optima Yellow top under the bonnet, I have a second 120ah in a battery box in the back. I had it disconnected as I was doing a trial run on the battery to gauge how long I could run the fridge without recharge (worst case scenario test, it easily covered the minimum three days i was looking for) It had been disconnected from the anderson plug and out of the car for about a week and I had not bothered to put it back in as I was going to be away for work and it was not needed.
The battery is in and connected all of the time at present and thinking back it may have been about 2-3 weeks after it was all back in and fully charged that the warnings stopped.
Coincidence?????
Can I ask why you are inquiring as to the timing?

[drivesafe]

Hi again uttanutta and thanks for the feedback.

What I have been observing over the last 2 or 4 years is that a number of LR vehicles were having low battery warnings and the likes until my isolator was fitted.

But, with 1 exception, within a week or two of the isolator being fitted, the problem messages stopped and did not return.

I think half of the low message problems stems from the type of cranking battery being used and the charging patens that are used.

Both by adding a second battery and he fact that my isolator does not turn off when the ignition is turned off, the isolator allows the auxiliary battery to maintain a decent charge in the cranking battery.

Not, this is only a theory but it is very coincidental that the problem vanishes at about the same time a DBS is installed.

[uttanutta]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... interesting !!!

[Graeme]

Both by adding a second battery and he fact that my isolator does not turn off when the ignition is turned off, the isolator allows the auxiliary battery to maintain a decent charge in the cranking battery.
This reminds me of the time my D4 had the CD player on with the driver's door being opened and closed over a period of a couple of hours. The 'low battery - start engine' message appeared after a while. Instead, I direct-connected my aux battery using the installed battery switch. My DBC is not a Traxide unit so it drops out almost as soon as the engine stops. Anyway, the warning message dissapeared and didn't return that session.

[clubagreenie]

Sounds like Tims got some work building upgrade kits for a LR recall notice before he starts his new job designing electronic systems for them.

[drivesafe]

This reminds me of the time my D4 had the CD player on with the driver's door being opened and closed over a period of a couple of hours. The 'low battery - start engine' message appeared after a while. Instead, I direct-connected my aux battery using the installed battery switch. My DBC is not a Traxide unit so it drops out almost as soon as the engine stops. Anyway, the warning message dissapeared and didn't return that session.

Thanks Graeme, that's the sort of info I need.

[tonys tank]

I unhappily joined the "Engine system Failure" club yesterday.

towing my 3.2t boat along a flat road, accelarating from 80 to 100. D4 had just returned from a service in Perth that day. now on a tilt tray to be shipped back to Perth, mates Toyota had to tow the boat home (will be hearing about this for along time.

hopefully LRA will have an answer and my D4 back soon.

it took a local carrier 12 days to transport the D4 back to Perth and Landrover 12mins to fix the fault (PCM upgrade), D4 will be back tomorrow.
Must say Landrover supplied good service;
organised tilt tray pickup from side of road
shipped car to Perth
organised hire car in Karratha
shipping car back
hopefully the D4 will tow the boat well on Saturday

Bloody computers

[drivesafe]

Bloody computers

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually suffered some form of mechanical faults or damage, or have all the failures been software oriented?

[tonys tank]

no mechanical damage (todate 18mths) and the D4 spends quite a bit of time off road in the Pilbara (only software)

[Disco4SE]

All good with me too after 65,000Klm's.

[Graeme]

it took a local carrier 12 days to transport the D4 back to Perth and Landrover 12mins to fix the fault (PCM upgrade), D4 will be back tomorrow.
Tony,
Did you try restarting when this happened?

[tonys tank]

tried restarting to many times to remember.
locked and unlocked vehicle as advised by LRA assit also to many time to rememer still no luck.

[wcody01]

Has this problem happened to many people who don't have DBS or other electrical mods made?
We have had a d4 for about 8 weeks now, 6 of which we towed a 3 tonne full sized van around tasmania with plenty of windy and hilly roads. We also drove melbourne to dubbo along long straight plains with the cruise set at 100 - 110 in D.

Cheer
Will

[Disco4SE]

Has this problem happened to many people who don't have DBS or other electrical mods made?
We have had a d4 for about 8 weeks now, 6 of which we towed a 3 tonne full sized van around tasmania with plenty of windy and hilly roads. We also drove melbourne to dubbo along long straight plains with the cruise set at 100 - 110 in D.

Cheer
Will
Will, you will probably find that yours already had the latest Engine Management System upgrade.........and any other upgrades / patches.
Happy motoring.

Craig

[Mungus]

Does anyone know what happened to Phil? From what i can gather he had a PCM upgrade and then a new issue with his keyfob. There was a start, middle; some plot deviation, but no end to this interesting thread. I really would like to know if his problem was fixed and if he has done some trouble free long distance towing?

[Phil]

Hi Magnus,

Yes I am still alive! I have found MANY more people who have had this problem, almost all under the same conditions, long distances, towing on flat ground for more than 4 hours, then entering hilly country.

As far as I can tell, LRA still does not believe this, and I hear the same rash of stories about the cause, whatever they can latch on to.. If there is a DBS, then that is the first excuse, but many do not have one, or any modification at all, so LRA find anything they can to "blame", anything but the real cause. Some of the stories I have heard are even more ludicrous than what the coughed up to me, and that is saying something!

As for me, not, I have not had a repeat, then again, I have not towed under the trigger conditions since my first episode. This is going to happen around July, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

If it happens again to me without full disclosure from LRA, I will be calling for outside action, so all those who have had the problem, please contact me here and I will provide independent contact details.

As an aside, LRA have still not paid for any of my accommodation or other costs presumably associated with massive failures under the roadside assistance plan, (except a hire car), so treat that with all it is worth - not much!

And no apology for the seat covered in grease or being returned with a dry, yes absolutely dry, tank, or any of the other list of things which indicated that they obviously loved me. I guess an old saying is appropriate here, "truth hurts".

Phil.

[Redback]

Nothing supprises me about LRA, they have even put our vehicle on a special warrenty for extremely modified vehicles listing:mad:

They refused to believe that it was a fault with the vehicle, stating it was the accessories or something we did that was causing the issue.

And all this even when the issue was a manufacturing fault and a pre-exsisting issue from the previous owner (ours is a demo) and at that point had no accessories.

But when it was found to be a manufacturing fault, was there an opoligy for all the accusing, not a chance, even the dealer didn't care, they couldn't wait to get rid of us, off you go you have annoyed us enough:twisted::twisted:

They are so good to their customers:angel:

Baz.

[CaverD3]

Very much depends on the dealer. Name and shame?

[clubagreenie]

Do what I do Baz, just sit there, silent until they workout what it is that will get rid of you. My record is 4 hours after closing.

[robbiek2009]

Had the same problem last November with LD4 HSE April 2011 build. First time towing a van with this vehicle.
Towing a 2700kg van going up a big long hill on the Hume Highway. We would have been traveling for approx 6 hours from the central coast. I was pushing the vehicle up the hill at approx 100k/h. Half way up the power instantly dropped to what I thought zero power but it kept going slowly to allow me to pull off the Freeway. In short the vehicle and caravan was towed to Macarthur Land Rover in Camden. I picked it up the following morning. I was advised that all it needed was a computer upgrade. The service manager explained that it was a known problem, the computer thought that the second turbo actuator did not activate and treated it as a turbo failure.
A quick fix but caused a major drama with the van etc. Calling up support, waiting for tow vehicle and booking in to a caravan park with the tow truck!
I agree that with the drama this problem causes it should have been a notified problem with an associated recall.

[GEK064]

A side note. Robbiek2009..what did you think of the Macarthur dealers handling of your problem? I've bought a defender there and would apperiacte feedback as they have only been there for about 12 months.

[Graeme]

A quick fix but caused a major drama with the van etc. Calling up support, waiting for tow vehicle and booking in to a caravan park with the tow truck!
Did you try restarting the engine?

[robbiek2009]

Yes, restarted but did not sound right? Road side assistance went through all the options with me and eventually stated the the vehicle had to be sent to a workshop. I was totally ignorant of what had occurred and assumed a major problem like a turbo failure.

[Graeme]

Yes, restarted but did not sound right? Road side assistance went through all the options with me and eventually stated the the vehicle had to be sent to a workshop. I was totally ignorant of what had occurred and assumed a major problem like a turbo failure.
Its bad enough when something goes wrong but to discover its only a SW update would make me see red. I could see my Faultmate being used to read the codes then hopefully just drive it anyway.

[PhilipA]

Just to make you feel a little better I have a friend with the latest Pajero 3.2 diesel.
He was going up Cunninghams gap towing his van and the same thing happened ; into limp home mode.

The problem with them is that the boost sensor in the inlet manifold gets carboned up, and they actually replaced the inlet manifold with the sensor in a different position.
All the new High tech diesels seem to have these problems.

Jeeps ditto , and read the postings on the Grand Vitara diesel and shudder at the particulate trap problems.
Regards Philip A

[Graeme]

.. and shudder at the particulate trap problems.

I rejected my 1st D4 and waited another 3 months because it had been fitted with a DPF. Whilst it also had Satnav which I didn't want, the DPF was a show-stopper for me.

[discotwinturbo]

I rejected my 1st D4 and waited another 3 months because it had been fitted with a DPF. Whilst it also had Satnav which I didn't want, the DPF was a show-stopper for me.

So they don't all have DPF's ?
I have been told my 2012 has one.
My vw does not, but has the urea injection. Exhaust on vw is significantly cleaner than the D4....and no smoke like the D4.
Seems as though the DPF is not as clean.

[Plane Fixer]

Oh dear! Is it true the 2012 3.0l has a particulate filter??? The salesman could not tell me. Fortunately I will only be doing long trips with it so it should not get clogged up. The proper oil is then critical.
Fortunately when we bought my wife's VW Golf V it was not the model with the DPF because she does a lot of short runs and it is me who gets it nice and warm on back roads and blows the crap out and/or takes it on a long run.
I always run a spreadsheet on fuel consumption so it will be interesting to see the consumption against the book figure. When I take delivery I plan a few long runs with it to check it out.

[rednib]

I too will go up north in July with a 2800kg Van in tow. would you guys recommend to bring the Disco 4 to the dealer and tell them to get the
"latest Engine Management System upgrade" fitted or loaded or whatever.
Yet how do I know that this is done I would not like to get stuck on the Newell Hwy to wait for the Tow truck to pick us up...???
can't we get LRA to make a statement or recall or whatever is necessary (Phil's comments) Thanks for any reply, Fred

[Graeme]

So they don't all have DPF's ?All 1st batch MY10 had DPFs for EU5 certification but then LR resumed market-specific build and Oz didn't require DPFs in 2010.

[Graeme]

I too will go up north in July with a 2800kg Van in tow. would you guys recommend to bring the Disco 4 to the dealer and tell them to get the
"latest Engine Management System upgrade" fitted or loaded or whatever.If the service bulletin number was known, one could inquire about that specifically.

[Graeme]

Is it true the 2012 3.0l has a particulate filter?...The proper oil is then critical.I couldn't buy a 20L drum of LR's recommended non-DPF oil. I'd rather use non-DPF oil as I understand that the DPF version is a lubrication compromise.

[Plane Fixer]

I do agree with you Graeme, but to replace the DPF at some stage is mega $$$$$$$ unless someone comes up with a software delete for it. In reality with one fitted it is between a rock and hard place as I do agree that lubrication is of utmost importance.
A DPF regen in traffic could be a nightmare and downright dangerous for an inexperienced driver.
Another Graeme

[Graeme]

I don't know whether its a passive or active record but there is a DPF-fitted parameter in the CCF.

[BobD]

I do agree with you Graeme, but to replace the DPF at some stage is mega $$$$$$$ unless someone comes up with a software delete for it. In reality with one fitted it is between a rock and hard place as I do agree that lubrication is of utmost importance.
A DPF regen in traffic could be a nightmare and downright dangerous for an inexperienced driver.
Another Graeme

What is dangerous about a regen? The driver doesn't even know anything is happening. I have had a DPF on my VW Multivan for 5 years without any driveability problems for anyone. The only problem is that I have been told it is cracked and I need to fork out $2500 for a new one at only 130,000km. Since there are no error messages or power problems I won't be doing that! The other problem is that the fuel consumption is much worse than the non DPF older model VW's.

There is no smoke with the DPF VW versus obvious smoke without a DPF on the previous model VW that I had. On my December 2009 build 3l D4 I also don't get any smoke or driveability problems and as far as I know it has a DPF. I have only had it since December so I might be missing something but so far it is fantastic.

[Disco4SE]

On my December 2009 build 3l D4 I also don't get any smoke or driveability problems and as far as I know it has a DPF.

Mine is a October 2009 build and definately doesn't have a DPF.

Cheers, Craig

[Graeme]

On my December 2009 build 3l D4 I also don't get any smoke or driveability problems and as far as I know it has a DPF.
It was around mid-September that production swapped to market-specific fitment of the DPF. Its easy to check if it has a DPF as it is another large "muffler" just below the front passenger seat, with small tubes before and after going to pressure sensors mounted higher up. IIRC the VIN also indicates if it has a DPF by virtue of the engine configuration code.

I didn't want the cost overheads of a DPF and I didn't want the heat from a regeneration being a fire hazzard in grass and stubble.

[BobD]

It was around mid-September that production swapped to market-specific fitment of the DPF. Its easy to check if it has a DPF as it is another large "muffler" just below the front passenger seat, with small tubes before and after going to pressure sensors mounted higher up. IIRC the VIN also indicates if it has a DPF by virtue of the engine configuration code.


Thanks for that Graeme. Mine doesn't have a DPF on that basis and I can see the support point for the DPF with nothing attached to it.

Bob

[robbiek2009]

Sorry for the late reply
I found them good. They attended to the problem immediately the morning the vehicle was delivered to them. The LD4 was looked after and retuned in good condition.

[Celtoid]

What is dangerous about a regen? The driver doesn't even know anything is happening. I have had a DPF on my VW Multivan for 5 years without any driveability problems for anyone. The only problem is that I have been told it is cracked and I need to fork out $2500 for a new one at only 130,000km. Since there are no error messages or power problems I won't be doing that! The other problem is that the fuel consumption is much worse than the non DPF older model VW's.

There is no smoke with the DPF VW versus obvious smoke without a DPF on the previous model VW that I had. On my December 2009 build 3l D4 I also don't get any smoke or driveability problems and as far as I know it has a DPF. I have only had it since December so I might be missing something but so far it is fantastic.

I have an Aug 2009 build D4 SE with a DPF. I've owned it since new and the warning light has come on only twice and I've been stuck in nose to tail traffic jams on far too many occasions.

I've detected no change in anything whatsoever.....no smoke, no performance degradation and my fuel economy doesn't seem any worse than what others are quoting.

As soon as the car gets a chance to drive normally, the light goes out within minutes.

[Graeme]

Back on topic...

After a brief "restricted performance" yesterday morning which was overcome on the 2nd restart, today the D4 spat the dummy totally. It had to keep doing its duties of fetching a few large square hay bales but ascending slight inclines at less than 60 kph was tediously slow. I'm sure much more power could be allowed yet still be well below any condition that might cause engine damage, especially considering that the engine seems to be limited to 3000 rpm. Clearing the faults with the engine stopped only lasted until quite minor throttle use but clearing them again with the engine running then immediately getting the revs up high a few times has so far kept the faults away. The 2nd turbo is getting replaced next week due to the on-going smoke screen after prolonged cruising then opening the throttle significantly, so whatever mechanism (air valve, turbo solenoid, ??) has become sticky needs to get replaced too.

[Graeme]

Just an update on my vehicle's restricted performance.

The fault hasn't re-occurred since the 2nd turbo and its air inlet valve were replaced. I suspect the valve was sticking, either from the oil that had travelled backwards to the airbox or the valve was faulty.

[JPI]

I have an early 2010 D4 3.0 TDV6 SE and on a trip to Byron Bay from Brissie this weekend, towing a 6x4 trailer with the weekend's camping equipment, at 115km/h on cruise, I noticed the engine power drop and the Engine System Failure warning was displayed. I pulled over, turned the engine off and on again, and whilst the red warning triangle remained, the engine performed as normal for the remaining 20 kms to Byron. Everything was fine until the return trip, when in almost the same place (long incline) the engine lost power again. This time restarting the engine made no difference, so we just limped home to Brisbane unable to do more than 100Km/h, which would drop to 80Km/h up hills. We have around 57,000 kms on the clock and have had no engine issues until now. We did a trip to the snow last year towing the same trailer without a hitch so it seems strange that this issue would surface after 2.5 years of ownership. Having lived through 4 years of D3 ownership, I suspect there's a malfunctioning sensor somewhere that is triggering the "limp home" mode. It's going in to Austral tomorrow so will post the results once I get the car back.
BTW, I love the D4, and am convinced its the best all-round proper 4WD on the market. Friends with X5's, Landcruisers and Mercs have all had service issues that they try and keep quiet about. Try and get a petrol Landcruiser driver to admit their real fuel consumption around town, most will deny they even have a trip computer. So this little hiccup won't change my opinion of the Disco, but I wont be able to say it hasn't given me any trouble any more.:(

[Celtoid]

Hi,

I have a D4 SE. Got my first and hopefully last Engine System Failure Warning on Thursday afternoon. Admittedly it was something to do with the fact that I'd just shunted the front end into the sand a few times in a row, after failing to see in the fading daylight, some big, multiple holes on a sand track.

No physical damage to the car but a few Ks later the red triangle appeared and then the yellow ECU light. Restricted performance sux and it is horrible to drive with. I was seriously concerned that I wasn't going to get out of the forest as the sand is very soft and deep.

Turns out, the impact loosened the Throttle Body and the car was sucking unmetered air. Easy fix.

It was the worst drive though....getting to 100kph on the road took about a year...LOL!!! I'd hate to have been towing something.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Graeme]

It was the worst drive though....getting to 100kph on the road took about a year...LOL!!! I'd hate to have been towing something.
Travelling around 60 kph is quite acceptable but as soon as you try to go much faster it becomes very trying. Fuel is limited way too severely when there's a need to travel any distance or in traffic. Not limited to LRs though - I passed an X5 with hazards flashing doing only about 80 kph on the freeway recently.

[JayBee75]

Please don't shoot me down , but DFP?

Picking my 2012 HSE hopefully mid Nov, assuming that mine will not have it..

Thanks

[sniegy]

Jaybee,

I think you meant DPF-Diesel Particulate Filter.
No you won't have one.
Cheers

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[wcody01]

Jpi,
had a similar problem with my tdv6. was towing a 3 tonne full size caravan at the time. the dealer said they didnt know what the problem was but had reset it and it shouldn't happen again. I took it to Australs (from central western NSW) and had the electric brakes, amongst other things rewired. no problem since, touch wood, and we have been on 2 long hilly trips towing since.
do you have any accessories fitted?
Cheers
Will
ps. Australs were great

[nelpd96]

Well just to raise this again, I got the red triangle this weekend on my 2010 3.0 D4. Similar circumstances as outlined, towing on the Hume for around 90min and cruise cut out going up a hill. Limped into Mittagong and did a hard reset and some other stuff but the Engine System Failure warning remains. Disconnected the brake controler just to be sure and made it to Wondilly River Station without incident, coming home no problems till around Picton about 90min of driving again and I am struggling to make 80km/hr up a slight rise with the camper trailer on.

Parked the car up while I unpacked and then took it for a drive after around an hour and it was back to full power or very close to it. Have it booked into Graeme Cooper tomorrow for a once over. I can only hope that the PCM upgrade has not been done and it will be a simple fix. I will update with the findings.

Regards
Paul

[LandyAndy]

Not being critical,you shouldnt use cruise whilst towing a heavy load in hilly country.You are putting alot of extra stress on the vehicle,it cant "see" the hill coming,so when the strain of the terrain comes on the ecu whips the engine harder to maintain the target speed.Sure use the cruise in flat country,when hills are around drive it.
Andrew

[nelpd96]

I would hardly call the Hume highway it out Sydney hilly. Nor would I call my 900kg camper trailer heavy. When you add the fact that I normally only sit on 100 when towing I would say that it was week within the capacity of the vehicle.

[PeterOZ]

Hi Andrew, and your correct, my gear is not approved but is on LRA’s recommended accessories list, as sent to all the dealers.

When LRA tested my gear, they told me it did not cause any problems and when I asked about it being officially approved I was told that this is never done with third party accessories.

Cheers for the heads up anyway Andrew.

BTW, there is a device that replaces a fuse in Toyotas, that causes the alternator voltage to increase by 0.6 to 0.7v and these must be removed before the Toyota goes in for a service or if it’s discovered, the warranty is voided.

So if you have any mates using this device, warn them.


Tis called a very sneaky diode :angel:

[PeterOZ]

A manufacturer cannot void the whole warranty. They have the right to refuse a warranty claim if the failure has been caused or contributed to by non approved accessories or modification. The claim that a diff failure is due to aftermarket shocks would not wash if there was a dispute and the owner pushed the issue, there is also an anti-competition isssue in that case.

Adding anything to your vehicle will run the risk of a warranty repair refusal and could cause you hassle with LR in the event of problems. If they claim it is something else causing it you may need to fight to get the claim approved.



So dofit Pirelli's in lieu of the manglers or they will void your warranty!


Oh to be a lawyer in such cases.
:wasntme:
I'm beinjg facetious by the way.

[Tombie]

So dofit Pirelli's in lieu of the manglers or they will void your warranty!


Oh to be a lawyer in such cases.
:wasntme:
I'm being facetious by the way.

Only if they are outside the dimensions specified :cool:

And yeah - I get the facetiousness :D

problem with hiring the lawyer is the bigger pockets of the other party...

[Graeme]

Not being critical,you shouldnt use cruise whilst towing a heavy load in hilly country.
No different to sticking the boot in to maintain speed or more boot to accelerate except when faulty ecm CC programming causes a should-not-occur logic error.

[Tombie]

Not being critical,you shouldnt use cruise whilst towing a heavy load in hilly country.You are putting alot of extra stress on the vehicle,it cant "see" the hill coming,so when the strain of the terrain comes on the ecu whips the engine harder to maintain the target speed.Sure use the cruise in flat country,when hills are around drive it.
Andrew

Sorry mate, have to completely disagree here...

The engines and driveline are more than capable of dealing with any driveable gradient, with correct shifting etc...

Once I'm out of town, the cruise goes on - and stays on...

[SBD4]

Have to agree with Graeme and Mike, if the conditions are not with in the parameters of cruise control then it should just disengage, not cause limp mode.

[BobD]

Well just to raise this again, I got the red triangle this weekend on my 2010 3.0 D4. Similar circumstances as outlined, towing on the Hume for around 90min and cruise cut out going up a hill. Limped into Mittagong and did a hard reset and some other stuff but the Engine System Failure warning remains. Disconnected the brake controler just to be sure and made it to Wondilly River Station without incident, coming home no problems till around Picton about 90min of driving again and I am struggling to make 80km/hr up a slight rise with the camper trailer on.

Parked the car up while I unpacked and then took it for a drive after around an hour and it was back to full power or very close to it. Have it booked into Graeme Cooper tomorrow for a once over. I can only hope that the PCM upgrade has not been done and it will be a simple fix. I will update with the findings.

Regards
Paul



Paul, if you don't get any joy check the plastic inlet manifolds. My 2010 3.0l did something similar and was OK for a while after clearing the fault but after a few days it would fault again immediately after clearing faults. It turned out to be a cracked inlet manifold (we think due to a broken T piece in the vacuum pipe on top of the engine, which meant there was no waste gate). It took my guys a long time to find the problem and it is not cheap to fix. I replaced both manifolds on mine in case the second one also failed soon.

[nelpd96]

Righto, the diagnosis was invalid data from ABS and internal module injector control performance. Both error codes were cleared and fuel pressure was checked along with a software update, new fuel filter and pump learn procedure. We will see how it all goes, interestingly there was another D4 there with the same symptoms as mine but had logged voltage issues rather than injectors like mine.

Regards
Paul

[jonrichkl]

Hi All,

I'm Conscious that this is an old thread now but I'll give it a go...

I've just experienced the same issue - Engine Systems Failure, red triangle and massive loss of power in my 2011 3.0l D4 with 90k on the clock.

Difference with my situation though is that although I had just switched cruise control on I wasn't towing and was coasting downhill I.e. Almost no load on engine.

The car limped home with no power for 15kms where I turned it off and on again and now all seems fine, power returned and drives normally although the red triangle remains and I suspect the shift patterns seem very slightly different.

I haven't done a hard reset but have done the lock unlock and ignition cycling recommended elsewhere on the forum. None has seemed to make any difference but as I said the car drives fine now.

All the garages, independent and dealer, are closed until the 3rd so will take it in then. Any recommendations for this type of check up in sydney? I use Graham Cooper, usually.

Also, any thoughts on why this would occur without towing like most other posters? Could it be more serious than just software?

Cheers

[SBD4]

You would need to post the fualt codes to have any hope of identifying the likely cause of the issue. Could be any of the reasons outlined in the thread so far.

Post up the codes if you have fault reader and we'll have a go at what it might be.

BTW when a fault like this is registered, the system will keep it in your face until it is properly reset or dealt with.

[Graeme]

It certainly sounds like the old s/w fault even though you weren't towing but CC had just been switched on.

[101RRS]

HThe car limped home with no power for 15kms where I turned it off and on again and now all seems fine, power returned and drives normally although the red triangle remains and I suspect the shift patterns seem very slightly different.

I haven't done a hard reset but have done the lock unlock and ignition cycling recommended elsewhere on the forum. None has seemed to make any difference but as I said the car drives fine now.



If the car is driving Ok then most likely it is OK and the red triangle is still there because the fault code is logged into the system. Now some people will advocate leaving it and getting the code read at the dealer (or read it yourself if you have the gear) so at least you know what the issue was - and thats fine.

For me I like to clear codes and if the fault comes back it is real and not a vagary if the electronics. So if it was my car and as you said is running OK but do not have a code reader/reset tool - I would do a hard reset to clear all the codes in the car.

Hopefully your red triangle goes away and thats it - if the fault comes back the the code is relogged for the maintenance people along with any other codes logged since the reset.

If the fault does come back after the hard reset I would be loathe to drive it.

Also you said that after you code the red triangle you limped 15km home - I would not do that. Red triangle - stop straight away!!!!!! Then switch off restart etc and if OK - go home. If the fault is still there then a hard reset on the side of the road. On restart and all is OK - go home. If the fault is still on - then decision time - drive or tilt tray or call for other LR professional help.

Good luck with it.

Garry

[Graeme]

I would do a hard reset to clear all the codes in the car. An absolute myth!
As the engine is now running OK, don't clear the code so that the cause can be determined and corrected as I'm sure that you don't want the same fault to occur again.

[101RRS]

An absolute myth!


Ok I bow to your superior knowledge but it does seem to work on my car.

Cheers

Garry

[Graeme]

Disconnecting the battery for a moment or 2 will stop an ecu from running thereby causing it to restart when power is reconnected. Whilst fault codes will remain, excepting for those that clear after a preset number of successful restarts or drive cycles without the error condition, if the fault condition is not detected then the fault code can appear to have been cleared. However the earlier mentioned ecm logic error fault code will remain as a current fault even though the triggering conditions don't currently exist, presumably because its a programming bug rather than an operational fault condition for which a corrected version of the s/w is required to prevent the fault re-occurring.

[jonrichkl]

I've not got a FCR (yet) so I guess I'll have to wait until the mechanics open up tomorrow.

I guess, I was just wondering, given its driving normally now, if it was more likely to be a software error/sensor misread rather than something more expensive.

[DazzaTD5]

This is just my IMHO....

I've not read all the replies and I'm sure someone has already mentioned this...

I fail to see how "Engine Systems Failure" is a DANGEROUS Land Rover Discovery 4 thing, bluntly I think the comment is a bit ridiculous. Its a generic system protection fault, while the exact wording is more Ford than other brands, they (as in all manufacturers) ALL have some form of when there is a detected issue that could potentially damage a major component such as a engine or transmission the computer system will put the vehicle in a limp or power restricted mode to protect these components.

The computer system doesnt know the current driving conditions, going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck etc etc etc.

While I'm sure it was a hair raising experience, its not a Discovery 4 fault.

Regards
Daz

[101RRS]

The computer system doesnt know the current driving conditions, going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck etc etc etc.

Not quite true - the ECU does know when the engine is under load eg going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck etc - in its simplest form my FC 101 has a vacuum gauge and when it is in those conditions it is in the red (well when you drive a 101 it is nearly always in the red) and when off the throttle it is in the gray - so a high tech ECU in a D3/4 will sense increasing load via a miriad of inputs - eg sucking air compared to road speed and throttle position, high throttle position compared road speed, high MAP etc.

I can get the red triangle and various forms of restricted performance in my RRS when towing anything over 1 tonne (never happens when not towing) by simply spirited driving - flooring it when doing over 100kph and flooring it when going up hill. If driving relaxed and towing it does not appear.

I no longer stop even if the engine has shut down if on a straight multi lane highway - into neutral, switch off for 2 seconds and restart and all is good. Normally not long enough to loose power assistance on the steering so has to be done only in the right conditions.

Cheers

Garry

[Graeme]

The computer system doesnt know the current driving conditions, going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck etc etc etc.As cruise control is a function of the TDV6 ecm, the ecm obviously knows when CC is active.

[DazzaTD5]

Not quite true - the ECU does know when the engine is under load eg going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck etc

Well no...... as you quite rightly point out, the engine computer does know when the engine, transmission is under load etc etc, BUT no it doesnt know you are going up a hill, towing a caravan, overtaking a truck all at the same time... which no doubt and to be fair to the OP, was an extremely worrying situation to be in.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

As cruise control is a function of the TDV6 ecm, the ecm obviously knows when CC is active.

Again... yes the computer knows engine loads and condition, but not the actual circumstance the OP found themselves in.

Regards
Daz

[Graeme]

...and therefore should not assume that it's safe to limit engine power to about 5%.

[DazzaTD5]

...and therefore should not assume that it's safe to limit engine power to about 5%.

so just like other computer systems used in vehicles (as I'm sure you know) its only a fancy dumb switch... in out, input output, on off when certain parameters are met. I'm sure there might be some vehicles out there that when the engine is under load it doesnt go into limp or power restricted mode, but a relatively massed produced Land Rover isnt one of them.

Regards
Daz

[jonrichkl]

Dropped into graham coopers yesterday (great service given the skeleton holiday staff) and they hooked it up to the computer. There was a range of errors recorded from oxygen sensors to injector errors but, given the car was driving normally, and given a full test drive, they cleared the faults and said to monitor it going forward. They suggested the faults could have been logged due to a new battery replacement 3 months ago without correct programming/logging of the new battery to the car causing over charging.

I'll see how it all goes.

[DazzaTD5]

Often when you do get a whole list of what seems unrelated fault code, its often a battery/charge issue or a poor earth.

One big thing I see a huge amount of, is when "u-buet battery supplier" puts in a new battery, both the positive and negative are very loose partly due to their poor design and lack of care when fitting a new battery.

Regards
Daz

[Salt grinder]

I can't remember quite why I started reading this thread other than for its knowledge base and general info as we collectively work the parameters of these wonderful vehicles. Bought my '12 TD4SE bit over a year ago with just 26K on the clock.

Best vehicle I've ever owned. SWMBO and i do lots bush camping (no towing toys and we are 75yo +), it's well kitted out, fridges, running water etc.

Thanks to Phil, Tim, Graeme and others for the information within, we are all learning, and that learning I'm sure is extended to LRA. In my following comments I'm not excusing, apologising nor defending LRA. LR have done a wonderful job in endeavouring to build the perfect 4x4, they are almost there but not quite, and to me the end is so simple and so close.

My area of thinking is the absolute importance of the customer, to do whatever it takes to keep them (the customer) onside. Ten years hard work can be lost in 10 seconds of arrogance.

I'll back up a little with a simple example of good. My previous 4x4 was a 3lt TD Nissan Patrol, one of the models they nicknamed "the hand grenade" because motors were blowing up (meltdown between pots 3 & 4). Here's the gig, not all of them were melting, most weren't, but it gave them a terrible reputation. (Mine was OK, as I took steps like fitting EGT gauges etc as SWMBO and I did not want to be caught short in the middle of the Gibson Desert, alone. But I digress). I had fitted heavy tyres, including the spare hanging on the back door, which induced a stress fracture in the door frame. Out of warranty, they replaced the door, I had not expected that, WOW factor fanfare!

For all those poor bug...'s who had a Niss engine melt down, even out of warranty, they replaced the engine. No admittance of liability nor explanation, they just did it. WOW WOW. I personally believe that a lot of the problem was with the drivers and how to drive a diesel engine ie. not reeving the guts out like a normally aspirated petrol engine.

But my point is the satisfaction factor. I'm telling a "good storey", not negative about Nissan. BTW it was a good "truck", just getting too many k's.

There are many many more LR TD3/4 etc on the road than Nissans. LR cannot have been expected to design a vehicle that took into account every drivers habits, every contraption being towed, every hole in the road or hill, or suspension load, speed etc in every weather condition imaginable, and any combination of these. But they have done pretty good so far.

But what LR, and lets be specific and say LRA because of the uniqueness of Australian territory, should absolutely do, is to work with LR4x4 owners and absorb the seriousness of unique problems. To learn from them, to address without admitting any fault or liability, and fix their problem. Our problem.

LR owners do not want to be inhibited by the vehicles "possible" shortcomings. For at the moment I am, having read this thread. I was going to tow my 2T boat to beautiful Lake St Clair from Sydney, it's a 400 km round trip and hilly???? This sad negative story unfortunately gets accelerated around the world by those too many negative thinkers who walk amongst us.

In general, mechanically we don't have problems, yes there is the odd bits here and there. But this computer issue is a real thorn in the side. Yet it can be resolved so easily. The developers wrote a program with all (almost) the bells and whistles to drive this superb vehicle . . . . just fix this intimidating dangerous limp towing fault code issue . Simple computer skills. Do a recall / fix it advice or upgrade at service. Simple.

Apple send me upgrades and fix security gremlins seems like every other week . . . . . freeeee. Love it. They fix problems I don't even know I have.

It would be wonderful to know that LRA gets to read these threads. I would if it were my business, listen to your consumers. Just a simple "we read them, thanks" acknowledgement would mean such a lot. Then maybe I'll just copy and paste this to the LRA executives to see the cut of their cloth.

We, the consumer, do have strong legal powers collectively.
The divide and conquer approach of big business is powered by arrogance. Think VW.
This is not a threat but a reminder to act, or will LR wait until a family is killed . . . that will be the day when LRA will face the judgement of their maker and the consumers.

Communication . . . . the most powerful word. Even more powerful than a TD4SE.

John

[Graeme]

. . . just fix this intimidating dangerous limp towing fault code issue . The fault in earlier 3.0s was fixed but the update may not have been applied to Jon's vehicle. Updating the ecm/pcm takes time so dealers can be reluctant to apply updates unless a particular problem being experienced is known to be overcome with an update. The IIDTool, BT version at least, can scan any vehicle to reveal which ecus are running obsoleted s/w.

[Salt grinder]

so dealers can be reluctant to apply updates unless a particular problem being experienced is known

Partially agree Graeme. But do I have to be stuck on a hill somewhere with a 6.0mt boat on the back waiting for a tow, to indicate to LRA that I have an issue. It seems to me that the facts are in and simply, a communication to indicate that the issue is being / has been resolved, is so simple.

Through my local dealership LRA has access to my email.

An afterthought . . . the D4 is due for a service. I'll ask that they give me the all clear to tow the boat to the said destination. What I want to hear is "No problem mate". I'll attempt to get it in writing . . . . hmmmmm!

[Graeme]

Just ask for all software on the vehicle to be updated to the latest level. You may have to make the request when booking-in (ask if there will be a charge too) so that the diagnostic equipment will be available for the necessary time. Hopefully your dealer keeps all their customers' vehicles up to date.