TD4 Hot start

[psproule]

So our newly acquired 2001 TD4 is afflicted with the intermittent hot start problem. Most of the time it is fine - goes like a little rocket (relative for a diesel) with no misfires or silliness, but occasionally it will refuse to restart after a run. It will crank, and maybe fire one cylinder but then not start. Leave it for a few hours and it will start. Of course it does it at the most inopportune times:)

Reading around the forums it seems that quite a few things can contribute to this: Cam angle sensor, crank angle sensor, lift pump, secondary pump, leaky injectors and possibly an AFM or dry solder joint in the ECU. Any suggestions from those more seasoned on which one to start with? I guess when I next get it to fault I can have a look if fuel is being delivered and for injector leaks. It does seem to correlate with being parked on a slight front to rear incline so perhaps it is a pump. You can hear the front one running. Who's idea was it for these to have 3 pumps anyway?

I should have an OBD computer interface here soon that might shed some clues from the ECU.

Regards - Pat

[woko]

Sounds like Cam or crank angle sensor. more likely Cam sensor. It will log a fault, so get the codes checked. Don't open any injector lines when running or cranking they are under extremely high pressure and is dangerous

[psproule]

Thanks Woko. I have a friend who runs a Bosch diesel service centre (Denco Diesel) so if it gets to playing with Injectors I'll go see him. And thanks for the info re it logging a code - I wasn't sure if it would so that will be a good place to start.

Are parts from Land Rover reasonable? Unfortunately there is no local dealer. I have noticed a lot of spares available from Land Rover specialists and the like, particularly through EBay UK.

Pat

[Jojo]

Check camshaft sensor (easy to replace), but my bet is on the fuel pump in the right hand side rear wheel arch. Replacement is a bit fiddly, and you have to dissemble half the car, but usually this will cure the problem. Been there, done that (unfortunately first after replacing all the sensors, one after one, because I was too lazy and frugal to fork out the money for the pump and get the job done. It didn't let me off though...:cool:).
Cheers

[psproule]

Still waiting on a cam sensor and OBDII interface to be delivered, and it has played up a bit. So following a suggestion about the pump above we pulled the rear (in tank) fuel pump out and found it almost completely blocked with crud. See Pics attached.


We cleaned it out and it appears to be running fine. We ran it with the fuel line off and it appears to flow well. Later that day it got into the fault mode again so we popped the line off the pump to see if it had stopped, but it was still flowing very well. I'm still a little suspicious though as the ECU does take a reading of fuel pressure before the common rail pump and will refuse to start if there is not enough fuel supply. I'm guessing looking into computer codes is likely to give me the answer.

Interestingly the Melbourne based LR specialist I spoke to on the day argued with me that the TD4 did not have an in-tank pump. What year did they drop the second pump?

Pat

[BigJon]

When I used to work at a Dealer we had one of these displaying the same symptoms.

It got all the parts you have mentioned replaced in an effort to resolve the issue.

The final fix was to replace the entire vehicle wiring loom :eek:. As far as I am aware it did fix the problem.

[101RRS]

Interestingly the Melbourne based LR specialist I spoke to on the day argued with me that the TD4 did not have an in-tank pump. What year did they drop the second pump?

Pat

Interestingly I have Land Rover people often telling me my L series (not a TD4) has an intank lift pump but it is just not so.

My L series has a suction bulb in the fuel line - like on outboard fuel tanks - that sucks fuel up from the tank to the injection pump. On the TD4 there is a lift pump in the tank (as you have found) that provides fuel to the pump that pressurises the common rail.

So the change is when the Rover L series Diesel was replaced with the BMW TD4 Diesel - basically on the first face lift of the FL1 in 2000.

Garry

[woko]

TD4's have 3 pumps, 1 mechanical (high pressure) and 2 electric (low pressure).

[101RRS]

TD4's have 3 pumps, 1 mechanical (high pressure) and 2 electric (low pressure).

I assume the mechanical is the main injection pump and one of the electric is the tank lift pump - what is the other and what does it do?

[Jojo]

Well, here seems to be some confusion here. The early Td4 models apparently had a in-tank mounted lift pump, whereas the later models had one fitted in the reight hand side rear wheel arch. All of them have a high pressure pump as well.

Cheers

[woko]

I assume the mechanical is the main injection pump and one of the electric is the tank lift pump - what is the other and what does it do?
LR call it a secondary Low pressure pump. on the 01 the second pump is mounted on the LH chassis rail in the engine bay. 02 onwards have the 2nd pump mounted in the RHR wheel arch. All have a tank pump which is the primary LP pump.
Yes the mechanical pump is the main injector pump, Its a different to a L series as it doesn't control injector timing or revs it just pumps HP diesel. Timing and revs are computer controlled through the injectors.

[psproule]

Well, mine is the 01 with 3 pumps - one in-tank lift pump, one in the engine bay on the LH guard right next to the filter, and then the engine driven common rail pump. My DID Pajero has one pump - period. The mechanical injection pump and nothing else.

I'm very surprised they have no water trap. The literature states that the pump next to the filter emulsifies any water, which I guess means it is mixed with the fuel and simply ingested by the motor.

Back to the original problem - the cam sensor and an OBD reader are yet to turn up, but more reading turns up a few more possibilities. One is that the wiring loom from the common rail pressure sensor to the ECU is prone to failure, and running new wires can overcome the problem. Just as well I like tinkering with electronics & mechanicals.

More things to chase. Pat

p.s. - Attached are some pics of the car in question.

[dswatts]

sounds like a cam sensor problem for sure, especially if it only does it when hot.

[adm333]

Our 2004 Freelander TD4 has started performing this same trick.

It only happens when it is considerably hot and the engine will crank over but will not start.

Leaving it alone for anywhere between 30 and 90 minutes will guarantee it will start again. It never happens when the engine is cold.

I have read about the issue on this and some other Freelander forums and the consensus seems to be that it is the Cam Sensor.

I have ordered a new one from British Parts and will attempt to swap it out myself. Doesn't sound too difficult, but I cannot find the exact procedure in the RAVE manual.

If anybody does have RAVE instructions or indeed any instructions for this, it would be greatly appreciated.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers
Dave

[PaulP38a]

I have ordered a new one from British Parts and will attempt to swap it out myself. Doesn't sound too difficult, but I cannot find the exact procedure in the RAVE manual.

If anybody does have RAVE instructions or indeed any instructions for this, it would be greatly appreciated.


Dave - Maybe the attached will help. It is for a 2001 TD4, is it same on the 2004?

Pat - I want your nudge bar for my wife's 2001 TD4. Want to sell it? :angel: If not, could I possibly get some close-up pics of how it mounts to the body please? I can't find one to suit the TD4... apparently is different to the 4cyl and V6 models... :o

Cheers, Paul.

[adm333]

Hi Paul

Once again, thanks for the useful info.

Now that I know what to look for, I can actually find it in my Rave manual.

Looks like a 5 minute job.

(So I should be able to do it in about 2 hours !!!! )

Dave

[psproule]

Well,in my case the cam sensor did fix it. I carried around a can of electronics freezer spray for a while until the new sensor arrived (rather until the correct one arrived). Every time it refused to start we would simply pop the bonnet, give the sensor a good squirt and it would fire right up. This might be a good way to confirm if yours has the same fault? The ECU had logged no codes by the way.

Still haven't nailed the 3 amigo's fault yet though.

Pat

[adm333]

Pat

When you say "the correct one", I am wondering if the same thing has just happened to me.

The new one arrived today and it is slightly different to the original one. The older one has a step in in with a narrower barrel, and the new one has no step and is a wider barrel.

The new one doesn't work - the car wont start at all.

Same thing ?

Dave

[adm333]

This is a pictures of the 2 different sensors.

The car won't start with the new one.

[psproule]

Paul, you can have the nudge bar if you like. I pulled it off and threw it away behind the shed. It was full of rust under the powdercoat - obviously poorly prepared. It attached with two small straps on the bottom to the same bolts used for the sump guard. Then two bolts through the bumper into factor mounts. All very non-study.

Dave, I'm fairly sure my sensor looked like the one on the left. I ordered one off of LRAutomotive via their website and it was completely different - different connector, profile, size etc. After supplying my VIN they found the right one and sent it (BMW original). About $175 or so. Your new one looks like it might be aftermarket?

Pat

[PaulP38a]

Thanks Pat, will PM you when I get back to Canberra tomorrow.
Cheers, Paul.

[psproule]

Thanks Pat, will PM you when I get back to Canberra tomorrow.
Cheers, Paul.

Um - it was tongue in cheek - it is totally stuffed - you can push your finger through the rust. The previous owner also "used" it and nudged something thus bending it and it's mounts.

Pat

[PaulP38a]

Um - it was tongue in cheek - it is totally stuffed - you can push your finger through the rust. The previous owner also "used" it and nudged something thus bending it and it's mounts.

Pat
hmm bugger, thanks anyway Pat. Will keep looking for a nudge bar and side steps... unless I can convince her that she should drive my other P38 which already has those things ;)
Then I could start working on a lift kit for the Freebie and some body armour :D

Am going to check out that sensor too, so if/when it goes on ours I'll know which one to get.

Cheers, Paul.

[adm333]

Bit of an update.....

Since finding out from you and from Scouse that the new sensor should be the right one, I changed it again yesterday.

After persevering for ages it eventually started but not before lots of failed attempts and long cranking.

It is only through a random occurance that it bursts into life.

FAIL.

This morning I put the old one back in and it starts first time.

So my problem remains of the random non starting with the old one when the car is hot.

I think I will get a can of the electroinc freeze stuff, that Pat mentioned and maybe if that works I can assume that it is the sensor and that I got a dud one from the UK.

I don't like my chances of getting any money back on it though.

Bugger.

Dave

[psproule]

Dave, it could also be the injectors leaking back out their return lines or a fuel pump / delivery problem. If you leave the key on and the pumps priming for a while and then try to start is it better? There was also an issue with some of the injector looms.

Pat

[adm333]

Problem has been solved now. Needed a new low pressure fuel pump.

Not exactly a cheap exercise, but we will punish ourselves by owning Land Rovers.

Dave

[adm333]

BTW I now have a spare Cam Sensor which is most likely NOT faulty.

If anyone has the same problem and wants to try a new cam sensor, then please feel free to give me a shout.

Dave

[Demi]

Dave - Maybe the attached will help. It is for a 2001 TD4...

Cheers, Paul.

Hi, Where do you get these RAVE manuals from? A simple google search returns a lot of references to it but not the source.

Kindly, Demi

[Scouse]

Hi, Where do you get these RAVE manuals from? A simple google search returns a lot of references to it but not the source.

Kindly, DemiThe best place is here:

Dave's Interesting Things (http://www.davesitshop.com/davesitshop/)

:):)

[ianmac]

what pump is the "low pressure fuel pump" is that the one in the tank?

[101RRS]

what pump is the "low pressure fuel pump" is that the one in the tank?

The TD4 has two fuel pumps.

The first is the low pressure (high volume) lift pump that lives in the fuel tank - its sole purpose is to supply fuel to the second high pressure pump.

The second pump is up on the engine and is the injector pump. Its role is to charge the common fuel rail to the very high pressure that the injectors operate at.

Garry

[psproule]

what pump is the "low pressure fuel pump" is that the one in the tank?

Yep. There are actually three pumps if you count the common rail pump. A low pressure in the tank (a lift pump), a medium pressure electric under the bonnet, and the engine driven common rail injection pump. Having said that, there were some variants that didn't have the tank pump. I think it changed in a certain date range.

EDIT - Garry - sorry, I didnt see your post. My FL1 TD4 definitely has two electric pumps and the common rail pump. Perhaps it's because mine also has the fuel burning heater fitted?

[rodlar]

Deleted. Wrong thread sorry.