130 suspension too hard?

[madandmuddy]

My 130 double cab with standard HCPU rear is just horrible to drive at the moment. Was recently converted back from a tray and is worse now than it was but wasn't great before. Have had defenders for years so I am not talking about usual harsh defender ride quality :-) Have just replaced the shocks as they needed doing and just wondering if it's just over sprung in the rear with the inner coils? I don't carry a great deal of weight in the back.

Can anyone comment on the ride difference without the helper springs or make any other suggestions? Everything else seem to check out.

Just a bit over the excess bounce!!

Cheers

[rainman]

My 130 DC (before I pulled it apart) had an aluminium tray with 21mm diameter wire coils along with the inner (helper) springs. The ride was really good, but am comparing it to a 110 single cab. The height of the spring and number of coils in the spring also affect the rate, but I'm afraid I don't have those details with me (right now).

When the vehicle goes back together it will have a steel checkerplate tray so I anticipate having to go up to the 22mm diameter spares I have.

If you want a harsh ride, try 22mm diameter coils on the back of a 110 single cab with no load on the tray ;).

[rick130]

My 130 double cab with standard HCPU rear is just horrible to drive at the moment. Was recently converted back from a tray and is worse now than it was but wasn't great before. Have had defenders for years so I am not talking about usual harsh defender ride quality :-) Have just replaced the shocks as they needed doing and just wondering if it's just over sprung in the rear with the inner coils? I don't carry a great deal of weight in the back.

Can anyone comment on the ride difference without the helper springs or make any other suggestions? Everything else seem to check out.

Just a bit over the excess bounce!!

Cheers

What year model ?

Prior to about '05 or so the rear springs are 330lb/in mains and 140lb/in inners.

Pop the inners out if you drive it mostly unladen, then you'll have it the same as a 110 HD rear end.

What can happen with the stock dual springs is that when unladen the OE dampers are nearly topped out. Depending on what you have replaced them with you may well be running zero droop and this can create a harsh ride as the dampers are either topped out or are topping out on rebound. (most shockies don't have near enough rebound for a 130 rear, being valved for a RRC or Disco)
The OE 130 rear dampers also have a fair bit of low speed bump valving, which can make the ride harsh too.

[roverrescue]

But Rick if you put longer shocks on you lose the built in 130 "antiroll effect" of having to pick the inside corner up with spirited driving!!!!

But seriously, may be worth swapping the inner coil for coilrite/polyairs... when unladen low pressures will give nice ride and when loaded you can increase the air helper pressure.

Or just go full rear airspring!

Steve

[rick130]

But Rick if you put longer shocks on you lose the built in 130 "antiroll effect" of having to pick the inside corner up with spirited driving!!!!

[snip]

Steve

:D Nearly mentioned the anti-roll benefits of nil-droop, (and the reduced pitch under brakes) but thought it was getting a bit too race car engineeringish :lol2:

[madandmuddy]

Haha, yes it does corner well at the moment :-) It's a 2001 TD5, of course I am assuming the spring set up is OE but not being the original owner there is no guarentee. Certainly looks it though.

Time to pop the inner springs out then and see where that gets me. Maybe I need to find some heavier things to carry in the back as well :-)

[rick130]

If OE the springs will have paint splashes on them to designate the rates.

Colour codes are here land rover spring specifications (http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html)

and yes, some weight certainly helps, I have around 500kg in the rear at any one time, and the rear dampers I'm using a quite a bit softer in bump than the OE ones too.

[madandmuddy]

Ok, so removed the helper springs at the weekend and didn't really make much difference. A bit better at lower speeds around town but still as bad as it ever was a speed on the highway.

Following on from previous comments though I am wondering if the shocks aren't long enough even though same lenght as OE. It is RAW nitro on at the moment and they did seem pretty much at the end of the travel when I had the wheels off but axle sitting at normal height. Helper spring removal didn't drop the rear any under the weight I carry so didn't help from that respect. Looks like I might have to revisit the shocks again :(

Anything else I may be missing??

[87County]

Ok, so removed the helper springs at the weekend and didn't really make much difference. A bit better at lower speeds around town but still as bad as it ever was a speed on the highway.

Following on from previous comments though I am wondering if the shocks aren't long enough even though same lenght as OE. It is RAW nitro on at the moment and they did seem pretty much at the end of the travel when I had the wheels off but axle sitting at normal height. Helper spring removal didn't drop the rear any under the weight I carry so didn't help from that respect. Looks like I might have to revisit the shocks again :(

Anything else I may be missing??

How much air have you got in the tyres???

(IMHE the manufacturer's nominated pressures are generally far far too high)

[madandmuddy]

How much air have you got in the tyres???

(IMHE the manufacturer's nominated pressures are generally far far too high)

Down to about 38 in the rears at the moment. Had new Maxxis Bighorns fitted a couple of months back and the garage put them at 55psi on the rear!! Solid as a rock and not touching the ground at the edges. I aired them down until they looked right and put a chalk line across the tread to check even ground pressure. Seems about right.

[ugu80]

Ok, so removed the helper springs at the weekend and didn't really make much difference. A bit better at lower speeds around town but still as bad as it ever was a speed on the highway.

Following on from previous comments though I am wondering if the shocks aren't long enough even though same lenght as OE. It is RAW nitro on at the moment and they did seem pretty much at the end of the travel when I had the wheels off but axle sitting at normal height. Helper spring removal didn't drop the rear any under the weight I carry so didn't help from that respect. Looks like I might have to revisit the shocks again :(

Anything else I may be missing??

I also do not carry heavy loads in my 130, just camping gear. Removing the inner spring made a big difference in ride comfort, it would soak up bumps quite nicely. That would suggest your problem may be the shock travel. I recently made a trip to Dobinsons and had 45mm longer rear springs fitted. The (Pedders) rear shock for the standard height spring was almost fully extended with the 45mm lift.

The high recommended rear tyre pressure is for loads. Around the 40 psi, + or - a few, is fine for light loads (I also have Maxxis).

[pc3]

I also do not carry heavy loads in my 130, just camping gear. Removing the inner spring made a big difference in ride comfort, it would soak up bumps quite nicely. That would suggest your problem may be the shock travel. I recently made a trip to Dobinsons and had 45mm longer rear springs fitted. The (Pedders) rear shock for the standard height spring was almost fully extended with the 45mm lift.

The high recommended rear tyre pressure is for loads. Around the 40 psi, + or - a few, is fine for light loads (I also have Maxxis).

What is classed as a "light load" for a defender 130 ?

I have been told that higher tyre pressures increase tyre life, improve economy and are also safer......so I run mine at 55 psi. It does however even with the tyres at this pressure ride SOOOO much better than my landcruider 1999 tray diesel ute did !! Its like a couch its so comfy :D

[ugu80]

I am classifiying a light load as up to 300kgs absolute max (in the tray/tub). Running 55psi will give you a pubic hair better fuel consumption at the expense of a much harsher ride. If you run 55psi without frequently carrying a load, you will find you will have slightly increased wear in the centre of the tyre. I discussed my tyre pressure requirements with respected land rover experts (Coopers in Sydney) i.e. empty in City and with just camping gear (around 250kgs fully loaded and fuelled) and they recommended around 40psi (all around) in town and 45psi (for bitumen) when loaded with camping gear. My tyres are wearing evenly and comfort is good (have 235/85/16 Maxxis).

[madandmuddy]

Yup, completely agree in regards to the pressures. On my tyres at 55psi there was no ground contact at the out edges at all. This was a similar load of around 250kg in the back max. Down to 38-40 they are sitting pretty flat on the road.

[rick130]

Tyre pressure is strongly related to tyre construction too.
eg. I always ran my BFG MT's at around 33psi with 4-500kg in the tub, but I use 41psi ATM with Bighorns. The Maxxis tyres are much more flexy in the sidewall so need more air.

The rating plate suggesting 75PSI at all times with the old Michelin XZL's is a bad joke.

Just for the sake of the exercise I popped the inners out on the weekend too and the arse dropped by over 25mm between the bump stops, but the ride and handling is so much better it isn't funny.
The better handling comes down to the rebound characteristics of the shocks better suiting the lighter spring rate now, but it still isn't anywhere near ideal.
New dampers are going to have to happen over the next few months.

[madandmuddy]

Just for the sake of the exercise I popped the inners out on the weekend too and the arse dropped by over 25mm between the bump stops, but the ride and handling is so much better it isn't funny.
The better handling comes down to the rebound characteristics of the shocks better suiting the lighter spring rate now, but it still isn't anywhere near ideal.
New dampers are going to have to happen over the next few months.

Interestingly mine didn't drop the slightest bit with the helpers removed so it's possible the main springs are still too over sprung for the weight I am carrying! So not sure if I have the wrong shocks or need to change the new springs for something different or adjustable... :confused:

[rick130]

Interestingly mine didn't drop the slightest bit with the helpers removed so it's possible the main springs are still too over sprung for the weight I am carrying! So not sure if I have the wrong shocks or need to change the new springs for something different or adjustable... :confused:

Pulling the helper springs out just makes it the same as what 110 Defenders were sold here in Oz for quite a few years.
If you think it's still too stiff i'd be looking at something like the OME 752 or 755 spring or LRA 110 rears as listed in the link I posted above land rover spring specifications (http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html)

FWIW the original 110 rear end with load leveller only used 180lb/in springs, so it rode like Rangie.

[spudboy]

Interestingly mine didn't drop the slightest bit with the helpers removed so it's possible the main springs are still too over sprung for the weight I am carrying! So not sure if I have the wrong shocks or need to change the new springs for something different or adjustable... :confused:

What colour paint is on your main (outer) springs?

If Brown & Purple (that's what is on my 130), then you have progressives that start at 270Lb and go to 420Lb. The inner springs are 130Lb from memory. Together they both rely on having a bit of weight in the back to be comfortable.

LRA will sell you a new set of lighter duty springs for around $250: Coil Springs (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d665.html)

HTH
David

[rick130]

What colour paint is on your main (outer) springs?

If Brown & Purple (that's what is on my 130), then you have progressives that start at 270Lb and go to 420Lb. The inner springs are 130Lb from memory. Together they both rely on having a bit of weight in the back to be comfortable.

LRA will sell you a new set of lighter duty springs for around $250: Coil Springs (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d665.html)

HTH
David

I'm guessing an '01 would still be red/green and red/red ? (330lb/in)
The inners are 140lb going off my measurements.

[madandmuddy]

Ok, so helper springs out and the ride was not improved in the slightest and I am sure it's getting worse. So it went up of the 4 post lift this afternoon in the village garage for a good look over. We found a couple of things, bushes on steering damper worn so possible steering damper useless too, worn bush on one side of rear anti-roll bar and a partially siezed bush on one side of the rear axle A frame.

One question though, with the vehicle on the hoist and then the back lifted until the wheels were in the air there was only 6cm drop in the axle. Surely there should be more drop that that?? This was from measuring centre of wheel hub to top of wheel arch. If there should be more movement than that maybe the shocks are holding it and not long enough, we will probably drop them off in the morning and see. Any thoughts or comments?

The other slightly odd thing was with the springs on the front axle. Again with the wheel in the air the drivers side was about 1cm lower than the passenger side. However the drivers side spring was still tight yet the passenger side you could almost wiggle a finger underneath. Maybe it's time for new springs.

Hohum, going to get expensive!

[Scott]

I run about 35psi in the rear of my 130 SCab. Put it up to 45 with a tonne or more on the back. I think it rides well and our roads are crap around here. Mickey thompson ATZ 235s.
Cheers Scott

[rick130]

[snip]

One question though, with the vehicle on the hoist and then the back lifted until the wheels were in the air there was only 6cm drop in the axle. Surely there should be more drop that that??
[snip]



But Rick if you put longer shocks on you lose the built in 130 "antiroll effect" of having to pick the inside corner up with spirited driving!!!!

But seriously, may be worth swapping the inner coil for coilrite/polyairs... when unladen low pressures will give nice ride and when loaded you can increase the air helper pressure.

Or just go full rear airspring!

Steve


:D Nearly mentioned the anti-roll benefits of nil-droop, (and the reduced pitch under brakes) but thought it was getting a bit too race car engineeringish :lol2:

In a 130, as mentioned there is bugger all droop (axle drop) with the inners fitted, it's much less than 60mm too.
It's all to do with the length of the dampers/shockies and the high rate of the springs.

This is the reason why a lot of people go wrong when lifting a 90/110/130, they end up with bugger all droop travel and worse articulation off road than a stock suspension setup.

I have much more droop than 60mm, but I'm not running stock dampers front or rear either and damper mounts have been altered to accommodate.

[madandmuddy]

I'm guessing an '01 would still be red/green and red/red ? (330lb/in)
The inners are 140lb going off my measurements.

Finally found time to look a bit deeper. Front srpings are HD, marked up as blue/red and yellow/white. The rears have no markings which would suggest someone might of stuck heavier duty one in at some point. It started life as a trayback on an orchard. The rears are made from a 19mm bar compared with the 16mm on the front. Maybe they have OME super heavy duty which are 420lb, could explain a lot! Might be time to try a pair of 752's.

[rick130]

Finally found time to look a bit deeper. Front srpings are HD, marked up as blue/red and yellow/white. The rears have no markings which would suggest someone might of stuck heavier duty one in at some point. It started life as a trayback on an orchard. The rears are made from a 19mm bar compared with the 16mm on the front. Maybe they have OME super heavy duty which are 420lb, could explain a lot! Might be time to try a pair of 752's.

What colour are the springs ? (and i don't mean the missing/non existent paint codes :D)

Count the # of turns pretty much exactly, and if that 19mm wire diameter is pretty accurate I should be able to calculate out the rate pretty closely.

My step-father had a 130 and it looked like it had a set of Lovells springs in the rear and they were beefy.
The rate worked out at 540 lb/in, and it had the helpers in too :eek: (but with the camper body on the back it tared at 3000kg over the weighbridge empty)

[madandmuddy]

What colour are the springs ? (and i don't mean the missing/non existent paint codes :D)

Count the # of turns pretty much exactly, and if that 19mm wire diameter is pretty accurate I should be able to calculate out the rate pretty closely.

My step-father had a 130 and it looked like it had a set of Lovells springs in the rear and they were beefy.
The rate worked out at 540 lb/in, and it had the helpers in too :eek: (but with the camper body on the back it tared at 3000kg over the weighbridge empty)

They are black which is why I hadn't given them much thought before as the originals would of been black. Don't think they would of been that thick though! I will count the number of turns tomorrow, will be interesting to see what you come up with!

[madandmuddy]

Right, just had a look and looks to be 9 complete turns. Not really any space between the top 3 or so coils. 19mm looks to be accurate, can't find the calipers but a 19mm spanner just pushes on.

[madandmuddy]

What is the difference in springs between pre and post 98? A parts place here in NZ does have some pre 98 station wagon springs but doesn't have any idea what the difference is after that. Seeing as there is probably less weight over my rear axle than a station wagon it might be the way to go?

[spudboy]

Right, just had a look and looks to be 9 complete turns. Not really any space between the top 3 or so coils. 19mm looks to be accurate, can't find the calipers but a 19mm spanner just pushes on.

Assuming 6.25" diameter of spring (that's what's on my defender), and ignoring the top and bottom turns, the formula (in inches) is like this:

Wire Diameter: 0.75
Coil Diameter (center to center): 6.25
Number of Free Coils 7:
Pounds per inch: 272

So 272 pounds!

Sounds way to light for 130 springs..... Maybe I better look for another spring rate calculator.


Edit: This is the calculator I used: http://guzzitech.com/springrate.html (http://guzzitech.com/springrate.html)

[madandmuddy]

Assuming 6.25" diameter of spring (that's what's on my defender), and ignoring the top and bottom turns, the formula (in inches) is like this:

Wire Diameter: 0.75
Coil Diameter (center to center): 6.25
Number of Free Coils 7:
Pounds per inch: 272

So 272 pounds!

Sounds way to light for 130 springs..... Maybe I better look for another spring rate calculator.


Edit: This is the calculator I used: http://guzzitech.com/springrate.html (http://guzzitech.com/springrate.html)


How do you define the free coil part? A coil with space above and below? If so then there are only 4 maybe 5 free coils. The top 3 are tightly closed. The disco 1 sitting here that I just aquired has 6 free coils looking at it the same way.

Coil diameter looks right.

[spudboy]

I am not sure how you define a free coil!

If you change it to 5 free coils instead of 7 then the figure goes up to 381 pounds.

[rick130]

Right, just had a look and looks to be 9 complete turns. Not really any space between the top 3 or so coils. 19mm looks to be accurate, can't find the calipers but a 19mm spanner just pushes on.

Sounds like a variable rate spring, which gets a bit harder to work out, and the wire diameter and number of coils would tally with this one.
RKB101111 (http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/RKB101111.html)
http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/RKB101111.jpg

Which is a 110/130 OE rear spring from VIN 159807 with a rate of 270/420lb/in according to JB.

The formula I've always used (and tallies with Land Rover spring rates) is

K=Gd(to the powerof4)/64R(to the power of 3)N

Where K=spring rate (pounds)
G= modulus of rigidity which for most spring steels is 1500000
d= wire diameter in inches
R= mean radius of spring
N= number of active coils

To work out the number of active coils is the total number of coils less...

Squared and ground ends = -1.75 (Land Rover and FWIW coil over race car springs)
plain ends = -0.5
plain ends ground = -1.0

[madandmuddy]

Hmmm, certainly looks like it could be the same spring! Also if the paint marking are only on the top 3 coils like that one, rather than all the way down like the fronts, I could well of missed them. If at the back with the top 3 compressed you would never see the markings!

Thanks for the help with that, very much appreciated.

Now just remans to decide what to put in instead :eek:

[PAT303]

I'm moving up to Newman next week and I'll be loading my old girl up so I re-fitted my HD springs and the handling and ride have gone to crap.Like Rick said my shocks are topping out and the inner wheel is bouncing around corners so I know where your coming from.I'll have a new 130 next March if all goes to plain and will remove the hard springs and go softer mains with airbag inners. Pat