Discovery TD5 catalyst ...

[White Pointer]

G'day,

My first post.

Just some advice please.

I have a 2002 S2 Td5 auto. It is fitted with a catalyst.

About a year after I bought it it developed an exhaust rattle. I complained under warranty and they said it was misaligned and the noise went away - for a few weeks.

Then it came back - worse than before. At the next service the fuel block had to be fixed (under warranty) which means an engine lift unless you can get dwarfs to do the job. I got it back with no exhaust rattle but a few weeks later the rattle was back.

Next service I am phoned to say the LHS engine mount is stuffed (under warranty) but I can't have my car back for 24-hours. I get it back - no exhaust rattle ... for a few weeks.

I finally worked out that the catalyst was disintegrating. The 2002 models came with emissions gear ready for 50ppm sulphur but the FEDS gave the oil companies a honeymoon to do it until 2006. So I expect that dirty fuel has wrecked my catalyst. I think it is so wrecked that it is causing increased back pressure and that can't be good.

What do I do?

I started doing some research and found that the Td5 was rated much higher than mine pre-catalyst. If ADR79 for diesels was deferred from 2003 to 2006 do I need a catalyst? Can I just ditch it and put a straight pipe in? Will this recover lost performance or does it need a new chip. I don't want a hot up and diesel in the sump just an efficient engine.

Can I sue the Feds? What a stupid question. Ignore that.

Why didn't my Land Rover dealer tell me what was really wrong? Another stupid question.

Any other suggestions that don't involve selling it?

Regards,

White Pointer

[Basil135]

IIRC - if the vehicle is fitted with a cat converter, then it needs to be retained.

That said, a number of people, have "altered" thier exhaust with a straight thru pipe. The difference is noticable straight away, with more power on tap. :D

If you click on the search button on the top right, and look for TD5 Exhaust, or Centre Muffler, you will find a number of posts on the subject.

Oh, and BTW - welcome to the fold.

[Blknight.aus]

Legally speaking your vehicle was fitted with a cat and therefore it must be fitted.

in reality the td5, unless youve gone stupid with it meets the required emission control standards without it (up to 2005 at least which was the last td5 I had emission checks done on post mods)

now heres the kicker...

The last one I checked was a defender and as its classed as a commercial vehicle (so sayeth LRA which is why you cant get the extended warranty for it) and they have a slightly different set of rulings than private vehicles.

do with this information as you will.

[Graeme]

Hi White Pointer,

What type of flex joint does your down-pipe have, wire or a bellows? The bellows type on later D2s stretch and rattle against their internal stop. To test, the pipe below the joint can be lifted by hand to stop a light rattle at idle if the bellows has stretched. Just a possible alternative to the cat rattle.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

You can go to the extent of opening the cat, removing the catalyst then sealing back up, but its easier to just replace the pipe with a decat version. Doesnt take long to change out, however its a lot easier if you have a hoist or work pit. I did mine in the truck workshop and it took me 30 minutes. For that "original" look, get an exhaust shop to cut the cat out and add an identical looking resonator in the same place as the original cat.

Flange bolts on the turbo can be a bit tight so CRC the hell out of them first and leave for 10 or 15 minutes. One is a bit hard to get to but with about 2ft of extensions you can get 2 of them from underneath quite easily.

The rattle may also be the heatshield above the main muffler. Its a foil covered pressed fibre unit that will deteriorate where the bolts hold it. Fixed mine by adding big galv washers each side and then the original bolts and washers to spread the load on the shield when re tightened.

Cheers

Andrew

[strangy]

Take it out
I know that technically speaking it was fitted and should be retained, however, according to advice given from an LR dealer, it is not an Aust.requirement and wont cause an issue for rego. You will find after removal it will be a bit better on fuel and performance as the the failing units cause some significant restrictions.

cheers

[White Pointer]

IIRC - if the vehicle is fitted with a cat converter, then it needs to be retained.

That said, a number of people, have "altered" thier exhaust with a straight thru pipe. The difference is noticable straight away, with more power on tap. :D

If you click on the search button on the top right, and look for TD5 Exhaust, or Centre Muffler, you will find a number of posts on the subject.

Oh, and BTW - welcome to the fold.

G'day,

That's what I thought. I don't mind making my contribution to making everyone's air better to breath. I've contacted a mob called Microfresh Filters to see if they can make a replacement. They reckon their's don't have a huge back-pressure affect. Anyone used them?

Thanks for the welcome.

Regards,

White Pointer

[White Pointer]

Legally speaking your vehicle was fitted with a cat and therefore it must be fitted.

in reality the td5, unless youve gone stupid with it meets the required emission control standards without it (up to 2005 at least which was the last td5 I had emission checks done on post mods)

now heres the kicker...

The last one I checked was a defender and as its classed as a commercial vehicle (so sayeth LRA which is why you cant get the extended warranty for it) and they have a slightly different set of rulings than private vehicles.

do with this information as you will.

G'day,

Thanks for that. It was a toss up whether to buy a Defender 110 Xtreme or the Discovery back in 2002. I still wonder if I made the right decision.

Regards,

White Pointer

[White Pointer]

Hi White Pointer,

What type of flex joint does your down-pipe have, wire or a bellows? The bellows type on later D2s stretch and rattle against their internal stop. To test, the pipe below the joint can be lifted by hand to stop a light rattle at idle if the bellows has stretched. Just a possible alternative to the cat rattle.

G'day,

The down-pipe is the bellows type.

I spent some time under the car and in the engine bay trying to find a cause and was convinced it was the catalyst because of the loss of power at 2,200rpm through to around 2,700rpm and the horrendous noise that sounds like a concrete mixer with nothing but 3/4 gravel in it in this range. Below 2,200rpm its smooth and quiet. Above 2,700rpm it quietens down and gets a huge power boost - therefore I'm convinced it's obstructing gas flow in the most usable rev range.

MR Automotive in Redcliffe confirmed my suspicions that the cat was stuffed a few weeks ago.

Regards,

White Pointer

[White Pointer]

Take it out
I know that technically speaking it was fitted and should be retained, however, according to advice given from an LR dealer, it is not an Aust.requirement and wont cause an issue for rego. You will find after removal it will be a bit better on fuel and performance as the the failing units cause some significant restrictions.

cheers

G'day,

That is my read on the compliance issue as well. ADR79/01 for diesels was deferred from 1-Jan-2003 to sometime in 2006 and therefore a car with a 2002 compliance plate only has to meet a much earlier standard - which the TD5 will do easily.

I'm looking for a more efficient catalyst (see earlier post) but if this draws a blank I might approach Queensland Transport for a ruling.

Regards,

White Pointer

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

G'day,

The down-pipe is the bellows type.

I spent some time under the car and in the engine bay trying to find a cause and was convinced it was the catalyst because of the loss of power at 2,200rpm through to around 2,700rpm and the horrendous noise that sounds like a concrete mixer with nothing but 3/4 gravel in it in this range. Below 2,200rpm its smooth and quiet. Above 2,700rpm it quietens down and gets a huge power boost - therefore I'm convinced it's obstructing gas flow in the most usable rev range.

MR Automotive in Redcliffe confirmed my suspicions that the cat was stuffed a few weeks ago.

Regards,

White Pointer

The flat spot up to 2700 rpm will still be there without the cat. Its in the fuelling map with the stock ECU.
i thought the decat pipe would also cure mine of the same thing, but it didnt however it wasnt quite so bad, but still there.
This tends to be the most common rev range the engine for everyday driving and in the interest of economy fuelling seems to be dropped back.
Funny thing is i find exactly the same thing in exactly the same rev range in my 3.9 RRC also.
This is the area a good chip like Tombies will address but with increased fuel comes higher EGT's. My stock map will run to 400-480 degrees in this range depending on how quick i stick it to 2700-3000rpm. Cruising it will range from 250-350 degrees.
The rattle may also be muffler and i am going to do a straight pipe conversion to see if that helps cure it. Mind you i may not be able to hear it with no muffler!! :)

Cheers

Andrew

[Graeme]

The down-pipe is the bellows type.
If you saw the restriction in this you would replace it with a wire mesh one anyway.

[Hamish71]

Any good exhaust shop will have a hi flow CAT, and some flex pipe. Expect it to cost around $800, and should do the job in a couple of hours.

[scott oz]

While you're at it take the middle muffler out as well make job of it.

[Benny_IIA]

Any good exhaust shop will have a hi flow CAT, and some flex pipe. Expect it to cost around $800, and should do the job in a couple of hours.


$800:eek: i got my 3" mandrel system for less then that (defender)

[White Pointer]

G'day,

Thanks for all the responses. This has been very helpful. For future fun I will indulge you to help me deal with LHF window regulators and bloody XYZ switches.

I've written a very nice letter to Queensland Transport asking for a modification to remove the catalyst. I'll let you know how I get on.

I haven't heard back from Microfresh filters so I guess they are not interested or just rude.

Any other recommendations on brands of bits to buy?

Regards,

White Pointer

[White Pointer]

G'day,

Thanks for all the responses. This has been very helpful. For future fun I will indulge you to help me deal with LHF window regulators and bloody XYZ switches.

I've written a very nice letter to Queensland Transport asking for a modification to remove the catalyst. I'll let you know how I get on.

I haven't heard back from Microfresh filters so I guess they are not interested or just rude.

Any other recommendations on brands of bits to buy?

Regards,

White Pointer

G'day,

Just a sec. Microfresh have been in touch. There's hope yet.

Regards,

White Pointer

[White Pointer]

G'day,

Thanks for all the responses. This has been very helpful. For future fun I will indulge you to help me deal with LHF window regulators and bloody XYZ switches.

I've written a very nice letter to Queensland Transport asking for a modification to remove the catalyst. I'll let you know how I get on.

I haven't heard back from Microfresh filters so I guess they are not interested or just rude.

Any other recommendations on brands of bits to buy?

Regards,

White Pointer

G'day,

This gets more and more frustrating.

Firstly, Microfresh Filters came back to me and offered me a catalyst that would improve my emissions to EURO4 standard with lower back-pressure. The price was around $2,000. Now that's cheaper than replacing with OE but there was a hitch. They told me that a catalyst has to be mounted directly below the manifold on a diesel to get hot enough to work. I described the layout of the exhaust and the limited clearance between the engine and the chassis and they told me it wouldn't work and therefore they wouldn't sell it to me.

I have to respect somebody to ditches a $2,000 sale for honesty - but they said my current catalyst probably doesn't work either and that combined with 4 years of sulphur clogging courstesy of the FEDS letting the oil companies go on producing dirty fuel is why the catalyst failed in the first place.

Armed with this I looked for a high flow catalyst that will fit in the limited space available. Delphi make one but (based on what Microfresh told me) it will have to be directly below the manifold on a custom made angled pipe with the flexible joint mounted beyond it. This can be done locally for about $450.

So I talk to Queensland Transport and tell them all that I have found and they tell me to replace OE with OE or be prepared to prove that my car still complies with manufacturer's emission levels - never mind what the ADR standard was. How do I do that? They tell me to go to NSW where they have an environmental testing lab and get a compliance certificate.

This is insane. The Queensland Government are advocating a policy that supports manufacturer's over priced spare parts business even though their parts are probably deficient in meeting ADR requirements. I have found two solutions that will probably improve the emissions performance of the car but (1) one won't fit and (2) the government puts a huge obstacle in the way of the only practical and affordable solution. And to add insult the governments caused the damage in the first place.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm P^$#^ off.

Regards,

White Pointer