better brakes (RR)

[Vern]

Looking into a better/best braking system for my 93/82(:angel:) Rangie.
1st question is can i use my rangie vented caliper adapaters on county calipers?
2nd question is whats the best combo for stopping power (talking classic rangie here(not wabco), i.e. late D1 master and booster, county/fender front calipers blah blah blah..(best can be bits from different models):)

[ADMIRAL]

As a comparison, price up slotted rotors from DBA ( if available ) and a good quality pad such as Bendix4WD. Then ensure everything else is in good nick, including renewing your fluid. Probably as good an option as a mix and match ??

[Vern]

sorry but not a good enough option:), i want the best factory(ish) option i can get or i'm swapping in nissan diffs:(.
Sofar i have planned for county front calipers, slotted discs (vented front), genuine lucas pads, well thats it sofar:)
Basically i want to able to lock up 35's on tarmac

[Rangier Rover]

May not be the best, I'm using the update D1 master cyl. Vented fender calipers and an adjustable load proportional valve. Pulls up with 3 ton unbraked in tow no dramas.

If your going for engineering the rear has to work well as they dump the front and check:(

[Dougal]

It was something like 60 quid for new calipers from paddocks when I did it. Fantastic upgrade, it stops the hardest out of all my vehicles now.

The bigger calipers have 25% more piston area. To bump the back braking power you can remove the pressure reducing valve to the rear calipers.

[Vern]

What about aftermarket calipers? i'e, more or bigger pistons

[Hobbes]

Damian -A few anecdotal thoughts for what its worth in respect to 2)!

I was very into the fast road biased Range Rover thing in the UK , finally lucky enough to run an Overfinch 570Ci in 1994. Despite carrying an extra 300lb (+285bhp) of Chevy upfront, standard RRC vented discs and callipers were considered very good. What was changed was the pads to Ferodo semi race compound for fade resistance and the hoses replaced with Teflon/ braided for feel. If you had serious bags of cash the next step was bigger AP racing discs and callipers - better, but not $10K better unless regularly hauling it down from 120mph on the autobahn.

Now, AFAIK, the 110/County callipers will give you marginally (10%?) bigger swept area (they’re longer and narrower), but that’s not enough to give you better brakes as the increase in area is linear and not at the perimeter of a larger disc. What they do give you is 25% greater piston area which results in less pedal effort for the same clamping force .
Also the non ABS RRC master cylinder setup is split with the primary pressurising the leading pair of pistons in the calliper and the secondary the other pair and the rear callipers – hence the required swap to a D1 master cylinder. I’d hazard a guess that that adds to the perceived better brake action.

I reckon the biggest actual improvement will come from choice of pad and disc. The OE Lockheed pads are good but pretty hard wearing. 20 years ago it was the norm to replace rotors every 4th pad change. Now, particularly on European motors, it’s almost a case of new rotors at each pad change. Our Audi TT runs EBC yellow pads which are good, so I replaced our 90RRC OE pads with EBC 6000 series “Greenstuff” which have a very high friction coefficient but wear quickly (lots of dust). These were good on their own but on the 2nd set I binned the pattern rotors and fitted DBA rotors and the difference was like comparing a BMW M3 to a Holden HQ….

Rambling, but hope it helps! There’s a fair bit of discussion on the UK forums as well about 110 calliper/brake conversion…

Chris

[Hobbes]

On the aftermarket callipers and serious brakes - suggest call Hoppers Stoppers in Melbourne for a chat..
Basically multi pot (4/6/8 etc) callipers do two things - give you increased piston area for a given size of calliper, and reduce the risk of the pad bending.
They'll also better made and torsionally are stiffer in general.
They get criticised for reduced pedal feel however..

[Dougal]

Also the non ABS RRC master cylinder setup is split with the primary pressurising the leading pair of pistons in the calliper and the secondary the other pair and the rear callipers – hence the required swap to a D1 master cylinder. I’d hazard a guess that that adds to the perceived better brake action.

The stock RRC system can be replumbed to single lines easily. The dual line fittings simply unbolt from the MC leaving identical single ports behind.
A normal front/rear split of the circuits is what every normal vehicle uses, this way if you lose one corner then you still have brakes on the other end.

Most people with RRC's are after more stopping force rather than heat dissipation so the increase in piston area is more value than swept area increases. I went to vented rotors at the same time just in case I ever need it.

[blackbuttdisco]

Locking up the brakes are not a good idea. Once the brakes are locked, you are out of control. You want your brakes to be nearly locked, so the wheels still turn.

[Vern]

I realise that, but have you ever driven a classic rangie on 35's, brakes are woeful! What i mean is i want really good brakes, if needed i want them atleast to be able to lock up or pull the vehicle up quickly

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Take a look at the later AP Racing 4 spot fronts and Lockheed rears standard on RRC's with the Wabco powered brake setup. My '93 Rangie pulls up from 100k's about 15 metres shorter than my GenIV SS ute ever did!! The brakes on these are simply fantastic and in 1993, were so far ahead of anything else on the market. You can basically brake with nothing more than flexing your big toe!!
Its the one thing I miss now in the Disco.

If you go to bigger calipers or ones with more pistons, you need to look at the swept volume of the calipers and check if your master cylinder and brake booster ar4e up to the job. Bigger caliper volume will result in longer pedal travel to account for the increased fluid requirement and the increased vaccuum for the booster to push it all down the lines.

Cheers

Andrew

[Hobbes]

In the interests of science rather than subjective I had a look through some old road tests in the Brooklands Gold portfolio (must be bored)
For the sake of comparison Car and Driver mag tested an 89 non-abs and at the point of lock up recorded (quote) "a lengthy 235ft 70mph>0"
In 1993 they tested a LSE with wabco in similar conditions recording 215 ft 70mph>0
Last year they tested a Range Rover Sport. Try 174 ft from 70mph, or just to add insult a Porsche Cayenne does the same in 158ft at .91g deceleration.

The point is, and I humbly revise my position that RRC brakes are ok, is that things have moved on to the extent that a modern Rangie will stop a full semi trailer and a bit short of a factory fresh RRC....Scary.

So, on 31"'s I reckon you're up for those 8 pot AP racing brakes and a easily deployable boat anchor.....

Chris

[Vern]

My diffs (and brakes) are from a 93 rangie that had the wabco master, which has now been removed, so could get it going with them just to see how it goes. Although i am leaning towards nissan diff conversion because i know these stop well and the diffs are much better than the rover ones

[Dougal]

If you go to bigger calipers or ones with more pistons, you need to look at the swept volume of the calipers and check if your master cylinder and brake booster ar4e up to the job. Bigger caliper volume will result in longer pedal travel to account for the increased fluid requirement and the increased vaccuum for the booster to push it all down the lines.

Cheers

Andrew

The stock MC has no problem with the 25% bigger pistons.

[350RRC]

Dougal's input is always good because it is based on experience, good or bad.

cheers, DL

[rovercare]

Landrover Tuning :: Motorsport Brake System Front Axle, 6 Piston Caliper, Disc , Pads, Heavy Duty (http://www.landrovertuning.com.au/shop/defender/hd-brake-system/motorsport-brake-system-front-axle-6-piston-caliper-disc-pads-heavy-duty.html)

Bolt on good brakes:)








Buy me a set with your other kidney?:D

[400HPONGAS]

Nah , they got it all wrong , they are not listening !
If Braking power is connected to mass and acceleration/speed/decelleration then the answer is simple !
Just loooze 1000Kg of mass and your RR brakes will improve out of site !!!!!
What? cant do that ?
Ah well , lovemyrangie and Hobbes are on the right track.
Ever heard of AP and Brembo brakes ?
Yep bigger rotors(ones that fit inside your rim) are much better (Never forget that anything that is grooved and indeed drilled is better than no grooving and no drilling,I think)
Bigger calipers (ones that fit inside your rim) are much better
Bigger pads with the right compound
Bigger foot mass to apply harder (must tighten nut loose behind steering wheel LOL)
Less speed always helps !!!
So , in your spare parts bin, just cobble the biggest rotors in Diameter and the biggest calipers (the more Pots the better),the best pads and a big right foot and you will do it ,whatever it is !!!
Offcourse this may require the same solution as Landrover used for the LR4 little problem of Tyres and brakes .They simply fitted bigger rims , to hell with the fact that there were no suitable Tyres available to suit those rims, at least they had ****hot brakes to suit the mass required .Now thats thinking !!!!

PS yes another glass of Marg river Shiraz will make my logic even clearer ,forgive me !!!

[Vern]

Nah , they got it all wrong , they are not listening !
If Braking power is connected to mass and acceleration/speed/decelleration then the answer is simple !
Just loooze 1000Kg of mass and your RR brakes will improve out of site !!!!!
What? cant do that ?
Ah well , lovemyrangie and Hobbes are on the right track.
Ever heard of AP and Brembo brakes ?
Yep bigger rotors(ones that fit inside your rim) are much better (Never forget that anything that is grooved and indeed drilled is better than no grooving and no drilling,I think)
Bigger calipers (ones that fit inside your rim) are much better
Bigger pads with the right compound
Bigger foot mass to apply harder (must tighten nut loose behind steering wheel LOL)
Less speed always helps !!!
So , in your spare parts bin, just cobble the biggest rotors in Diameter and the biggest calipers (the more Pots the better),the best pads and a big right foot and you will do it ,whatever it is !!!
Offcourse this may require the same solution as Landrover used for the LR4 little problem of Tyres and brakes .They simply fitted bigger rims , to hell with the fact that there were no suitable Tyres available to suit those rims, at least they had ****hot brakes to suit the mass required .Now thats thinking !!!!

PS yes another glass of Marg river Shiraz will make my logic even clearer ,forgive me !!!
Understand all that, BUT, where do you get these items from, and in particular how much, $7000 is a tad bit rediculous:(

[400HPONGAS]

Sorry Vern , ill have another Shiraz !!!
From your original question it appears you wanted to know what you can cobble together from your present stock of parts using landrover products ?
Certainly no expert in what make/model/year/etcetc had what apart from me 88RRC and its brakes arent that good but I suppose they were pretty good 20 years ago.

The aftermarket stuff is very good because it meets or exceeds todays application only , but alas it comes with todays pricing .
The Old rangie falling roughly into the category of "CAR" must have something from the 1000 carmakers that can be grafted on and do the Job .
Ring that mob called Hopper stoppers in Melbourne and explain your issue , they like all others will be more than glad to empty your wallet , nearly as glad as your local landrover parts flogger . you never know .
As for the exotics like Brembo , AP , and all the other professional racing boys , yep mitey pricey but they will have what you need albeit ifyou can make adapters and stay clear of the regulators.Its not that any bad engineering is involved , the people making the rules have a huge vested interest and wouldnt have the slightest clue what is sound and what is not. Yeah , you could overbrake it matey and rip the whole axle out , we cant have that , sorry all mods banned !!! IYKWIM

If it were me or indeed if I were you , then off to the euro and Jap wreckers with calipers ,thats the digital measuring type and a bunch of standard measurements and see what might fit given a modicum of lets say modification,keeping it strictly legal (which means hidden from those dumb inspectors eyes) Its called "Visually stock " but what lies beneath (reminds me cheating in the old Speedway days , wasnt me !!!) is another story !!!!
Yep , just slot the crap out of the rotors that you drilled the crap out of ,fit some slotted and drilled pads , andput some 16 pot calipers on it , every bit helps , plus it will be lighter and that matters !!
I digress , another Shiraz perhaps
So Vern after reading this dribble , I realise I havent helped you and should retire to whence I came , albeit with another nice Shiraz ADEW (dats French for see you latter !!!!! )

[Vern]

Well after a little research, i've found that the fender front calipers are 46mm pistons compared to GQ patrol 2 pots of 45mm (was thinking of gq diff conversion for stronger diffs and bigger brakes), rotor size is around the same,which is a good thing. Does anyone know the rear piston size of RRC and fender?

[rovercare]

Well after a little research, i've found that the fender front calipers are 46mm pistons compared to GQ patrol 2 pots of 45mm (was thinking of gq diff conversion for stronger diffs and bigger brakes), rotor size is around the same,which is a good thing. Does anyone know the rear piston size of RRC and fender?

RRC rears are 41mm:)

[Vern]

same as front, what about fender?

[400HPONGAS]

Now you got it Vern , what about the rotor diameter , which has the biggest ? then is the rotor solid or Ventilated , not that the ventilation makes much difference in your application apart from making it lighter ,
Dont ferget For whatever rotor you choose to be fully Drilled and grooved which improves performance out of sight . Fully sic bro and looks good as well with those big 3 spoke 22inch rims !!!
Actually the grooving and drilling will improve the braking immensely , but sadly it aint the best for excessively muddy conditions , they like solid rotors but your application will never see you in excessive muddy conditions .
Actually there are heaps of Rotors on Fleabay that will do the trick for at least half the price of the Local Rover junk.sames as these
Range Rover II 4.0,4.6,2.5TD 6 94-01 Front Gold Rotors - eBay Other, Brakes, Car, Truck Parts, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 08-Oct-10 20:04:35 AEDST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Range-Rover-II-4-0-4-6-2-5TD-6-94-01-Front-Gold-Rotors-/190441628967?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5734a527)

These might fit and are 1/3 the price of a Landrover equivalent and thats with just a standard rotor .
Match your best calipers with these rotors and the right pads and it will do nose wheelies !!!! you want to see a Nose wheelie ?

[Dougal]

RRC rears are 41mm:)

Aye, there are two landrover piston sizes. 41.3mm (rangie, disco, everything else) and 46mm which is in certain 90's, 110's etc. I have posted the model number breakdown in a thread here, might be in the good oil.

Going from 41.3-46mm calipers on the front gives you 25% more piston area so 25% more clamping force straight up. They bolt on and fit with existing rotors, wheels etc.

[Vern]

know all that, but are all rears 41mm?

[Dougal]

know all that, but are all rears 41mm?

There are some 46mm rears too. I think the spacing is a bit different so spacers are needed for alignment.