Seat belt rules for old cars?

[Sideroad]

Does anyone know of any changes to seat belt rules for classic vehicles?
My 2A is a 1968 and is going for a road worthy again very soon.
Will I have to have retractable belts fitted to comply with new rules/rumors I have heard about? Or can I keep my old 3 points and lap center belts?

[josh_griz]

i test drove a 1971 SIIa LWB from a dealer today and he reckon that because it wasn't fitted with seat belts when it came out it doesn't require them for road worthy.
i would check with QLD Transport through.

[Blknight.aus]

ADR's are not retrospective, If youre vehicle wasnt fitted with seatbelts or only had one style of seatbelts then you only haveto use them.However IF you update something that is covered by ADR's then you are required to comply with the Relative current ADR.

[JDNSW]

As indicated by the others. Seat belts are not required for any 2a Landrovers, but if fitted should not be removed, must be in good condition, and must be used if fitted. There is no requirement to update them to retractable however. The status of non-approved mounts, which were very common on these vehicles, is probably a bit grey, but since rules are not retrospective, if they are a period fitting, they should be OK.

Despite the above it would be wise to fit seat belts to any 2a (or S1) as these are probably the most effective safety item on any vehicle since the introduction of tread on tyres. Fixed (not retractable) three point belts, if correctly adjusted, are just as safe as retractable, and if you have the bent handbrake they are no problem driving, and have the advantage they keep you in place better on rough roads!

John

[gromit]

As others have said it doesn't need them, but if fitted they must be in good condition and you must wear them. They should also check how they have been installed.

I've attached the seatbelt rules for Victoria because I looked into this when getting a roadworthy on my Series 1 but I guess it will vary State to State.

The latest child restraint laws are retrospective. If you drive a car that doesn't need seatbelts and you have a child that needs to be in a capsule or booster seat then they cannot be legally be carried.



Colin

[Tusker]

I thought that in NSW some time ago seatbelts were backdated to 1965.

Regards
Max P

[zulu Delta 534]

Apparently, in Qld at least, recent amendments to the seat belt saga require that if a vehicle was not originally fitted then they still do not require them, ..... BUT if a child under the age of seven years (I think) is to be carried in the vehicle, then seat belts/ restraints must be fitted, at least to the passenger seats.
This has come up recently at the MJCQ meetings and has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons amongst the Jeep fraternity as suddenly, to carry children (and all little boys want to ride in old cars don't they?) legally the authenticity of a restored vehicle is in jeopardy, as seatbelts are not simply a case of bolt on anywhere, but require an engineer's certification.
Although not in your case, it is feared amongst the dedicated collectors that this enforced break with authenticity could quite possibly be the forerunner to other "enforced modifications" which could impact on "Special Interest" rego legislation as far as restorations are concerned.

Sidetracking slightly from the Land Rover scene: When the goody two shoes push was on 10 or so years ago, to fit seat belts to school buses to protect our little treasures, these seatbelts were obediently fitted, in many cases, simply screwed into a plywood floor, or bolted to seat frames that were screwed into a plywood floor! As newer buses came onto the scene the legislation changed requiring that all new buses were fitted from manufacture with strengthening plates etc., but many operators around Australia haven't bought a new bus yet and possibly when they do in another ten years or so it may well be second hand, so it could well be quite a while before our "treasures" are protected..
This doesn't have much to do with your query, I just thought I'd throw it in for kicks. I could go on for days about seating regulations and the futility of some knee-jerk regulatory legislations.
Just check out the carrying kids situation.... remember your nephew's reaction when I couldn't take him for a run in Onslow.
Regards
Glen

[gromit]

Apparently, in Qld at least, recent amendments to the seat belt saga require that if a vehicle was not originally fitted then they still do not require them, ..... BUT if a child under the age of seven years (I think) is to be carried in the vehicle, then seat belts/ restraints must be fitted, at least to the passenger seats.
This has come up recently at the MJCQ meetings and has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons amongst the Jeep fraternity as suddenly, to carry children (and all little boys want to ride in old cars don't they?) legally the authenticity of a restored vehicle is in jeopardy, as seatbelts are not simply a case of bolt on anywhere, but require an engineer's certification.
Although not in your case, it is feared amongst the dedicated collectors that this enforced break with authenticity could quite possibly be the forerunner to other "enforced modifications" which could impact on "Special Interest" rego legislation as far as restorations are concerned.

Sidetracking slightly from the Land Rover scene: When the goody two shoes push was on 10 or so years ago, to fit seat belts to school buses to protect our little treasures, these seatbelts were obediently fitted, in many cases, simply screwed into a plywood floor, or bolted to seat frames that were screwed into a plywood floor! As newer buses came onto the scene the legislation changed requiring that all new buses were fitted from manufacture with strengthening plates etc., but many operators around Australia haven't bought a new bus yet and possibly when they do in another ten years or so it may well be second hand, so it could well be quite a while before our "treasures" are protected..
This doesn't have much to do with your query, I just thought I'd throw it in for kicks. I could go on for days about seating regulations and the futility of some knee-jerk regulatory legislations.
Just check out the carrying kids situation.... remember your nephew's reaction when I couldn't take him for a run in Onslow.
Regards
Glen


I spoke with both VicRoads & The RACV recently about the child restraint situation with cars that do not require seatbelts in Victoria. Both confirmed that there is no exception to new child restraint laws.
My 8 year old can ride in my Series 1 but my 6 year old cannot.
You can get by with a lap/sash above the age of 4 if they are in a booster seat, below that age you need a point behind the seat to attach the child restraint to.
I am concerned about my kids safety but would like to be able to occasionally take them out in the Series 1.

As an aside, I've recently researched 7-seater cars in Australia because I'm about to replace my Ford Territory.
It turns out that virtually all 7 seaters (not people carriers) do not have child restraint points in the 3rd row ! The seats are too small for adults but you cannot legally carry children under the age of 4. Our 6 year old has a booster seat that needs a restraint point so he cannot go into the 3rd row unless we change to the foam type booster.

3rd row restraints :-
Prado No
Sorrento No
Pathfinder No (not sure about the latest release)
Kluger No
Landcruiser No
Dodge Journey No (plus made in Mexico)
Hyundai Santa Fe No
Challenger No
Captiva didn't check because too small
Territory YES the only one

Some can have a bar fitted across the back for the restraint points but you lose the little luggage space there is. The Challenger was hopeless, centre mid row belt was above the third row, no 3rd row restraints and from memory the mid row 60/40 split was the wrong way round!

Problem is the Terri is too thirsty but hopefully the diesel (TDV6.... fingers crossed) will be out in Jan/Feb.

Colin

[Blknight.aus]

the seatbelt mounts from a series III bolt straight up to a II, the hardest ones to sort are the ones at shoulder height but an appropriate bolt anchored to at least a 50x50x3mm plate with radius ground corners and .5mm 45 degree chamfers on the inner edge is sufficient for ADR requirements. Looks ugly but it works.

[p38arover]

I thought that in NSW some time ago seatbelts were backdated to 1965.

Regards
Max P

I don't believe so but I can't find anything definitive.

Wait....

See http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+522+2007+sch.2+0+N'tocnav=y



29 Seatbelts for cars registered between 1 January 1965 and 1 January 1969

Every car and motor car derivative first registered on or after 1 January 1965 and before 1 January 1969 must be equipped for each front seat position that is adjacent to the side of the vehicle with a seatbelt that:
(a) has been installed in accordance with instructions issued by the manufacturer of the seatbelt, and
(b) at the time of its installation has not previously been installed and used in a motor vehicle, and
(c) is of:
(i) a type referred to in Australian Standard AS E35/BWG–1966 Drawings for bollard type webbing grips for testing car seat belt webbing</I> as a Combination Belt (High) and has been manufactured in accordance with that Standard, or
(ii) some other type approved by the Authority.

[Blknight.aus]

the rough rule of thumb.

from about 1964-66 if seatbelts were an option on the front seats in the vehicle you were purchasing they had to be fitted.
from 66-68 you had to have them in the front seats some states only required the outside seats others required all of the front seats to be belted IF seatbelts were an option for the rear in some states they had to be fitted.
post 68 seat belts were mandatory in all seating positions except some types of sideways facing seats. I think but have never been able to confirm that this exemption ceased in the early 70's and was not the intent of the law but it was circumventable if your vehicle could seat more than 10 and be classed as an bus.

In all cases, where a seatbelt was fitted it was mandatory to wear it and have it properly adjusted. The driver was responsible for minors that were in the vehicle (I believe the cut off age was/is 13-15) and both the driver and the passanger not wearing a seatbelt can be fined if a passanger is not wearing a seatbelt. Pregnant women and some religions are permitted to not wear a seat belt, the pregnant woman no matter how obviously pregnant must provide a DR certificate if requested but all some towelhead has to do is advise that it interferes with whatever do gooder hippy spritual sacrament bunch of snot it is that gets them that exemption.

Personally If I see said towel head I am going to head on his car and as he lays there in agony Im going to ask him where is his god now and if he hadn't had his priority's tailendround he might not be on his way to see said deity right about now, Safety first people

[isuzurover]

This is interesting, however if you click on the link it excludes vehicles not fitted with seat belts. However some cops may not be aware of this...


New seat belt law for Western Australia: Carriage of additional passengers

Carriage of additional passengers, where there are no seat belts or child restraints

New laws will come into effect on 1 October 2010, which will see new rules for the restraint of children and adults. These amendments follow those made at the national level under Australian Road Rules.

From 1 October 2010 onwards, only passengers that are sitting in a seat that is fitted with a seat belt or child restraint fastened properly will be permitted to be carried in the vehicle. No additional unrestrained passengers will be permitted and passengers can not share the same seat.

While there have been rules prohibiting the carriage of unrestrained passengers in the backs of utes, trucks and panel vans since 2006, there have been no restrictions in the case of more passengers in the main body of the vehicle than available seat belted positions.

This situation is of grave concern, given the importance of restraints in protecting occupants from injury in the event of a collision.

For more information see the following document.

New rules for drivers and passengers of motor vehicles - carriage of additional passengers, where there are no seat belts or child restraints (2 page PDF 155 KB)


Seat Belts - Office of Road and Safety (http://www.ors.wa.gov.au/TOPICSROADSAFETY/Pages/SeatBelts.aspx)

[Bigbjorn]

ADR's required two lap/sash belts to the outer front seats in 1969 & 70. I think it was 71 or 72 that belts had to be fitted to all seating positions. Belts were exempt sales tax so our invoicing procedure at GM-H had to be modified to add seat belts to the bottom of the manufacturing section of the invoice after the taxable component and tax.

[raffranky]

Does any one know if my 1968 2a 109 soft top is required to be fitted with safety belts under Western Australian law :confused:

[tomisawesome]

My sister has a HD Holden (1965) that came from factory with the drivers seat belt (3 point, non retracting), optioned from factory. the passenger lower bolt holes were also there, but no high mount point. when they first brought out the new seatbelt laws, i called WA liscencing for info on what i needed to do. from memory they said that anybody sitting in the car needs to be wearing a seatbelt. regardless of if the vehicle was not fitted with seatbelts from factory. if anyone has a copy of the rules that says otherwise, i would love to hear it please, as i do not want to ruin her car.

[Mick_Marsh]

Vehicle standards information : VicRoads (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/VehicleDesignStandardsAndAccessories/VehicleStandardsInformaiton.htm)

VSI21 is the one you want.
In short, vehicles manufactured before 1/1/69 do not need to have seat belts unless they have already been fitted.

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

In reply to the original question by "Sideroad",if you are registering your 1968 2a on full registration you do not need to have seatbelts fitted,as in Qld seatbelts were not compulsory to be fitted to sedans/wagons until 1969 and in Utilities/Commercials until 1/Jan/1972 E.G.(Falcon Ute regoed 31/12/71 NO Seatbelt required,Regoed 1/172 MUST be fitted with seatbelts)

As your Landrover is classed as a Commercial Vehicle (built on a Commercial Chassis) it did/does not require seatbelts :)

THIS AGE REQUIREMENT IS/WAS ONLY IN QUEENSLAND ;)

If you have seatbelts fitted, you have to comply with current laws and wear them,or, remove them before full registration.

NOTE: On Historic/Special Interest Vehicles in QLD ONLY the carrage of children UNDER 16 is PROHIBITED NO Exeptions

This rule is contary to the Aust Road Rules which came into force Nationwide in 2010 but was overruled by the Qld Minister, the Combined Council of Historic Motoring Clubs is trying to get this ruling repealed.



cheers

[Sideroad]

Uncle Ho,

I am confused regarding the rule on carrying children in a historic rego vehicle. Does this include vehicles that do have seat belts? What about my sidecar outfit? I was never told these rules by my car club when I did all the paperwork and read the rules.


G'day Folks :)

In reply to the original question by "Sideroad",if you are registering your 1968 2a on full registration you do not need to have seatbelts fitted,as in Qld seatbelts were not compulsory to be fitted to sedans/wagons until 1969 and in Utilities/Commercials until 1/Jan/1972 E.G.(Falcon Ute regoed 31/12/71 NO Seatbelt required,Regoed 1/172 MUST be fitted with seatbelts)

As your Landrover is classed as a Commercial Vehicle (built on a Commercial Chassis) it did/does not require seatbelts :)

THIS AGE REQUIREMENT IS/WAS ONLY IN QUEENSLAND ;)

If you have seatbelts fitted, you have to comply with current laws and wear them,or, remove them before full registration.

NOTE: On Historic/Special Interest Vehicles in QLD ONLY the carrage of children UNDER 16 is PROHIBITED NO Exeptions

This rule is contary to the Aust Road Rules which came into force Nationwide in 2010 but was overruled by the Qld Minister, the Combined Council of Historic Motoring Clubs is trying to get this ruling repealed.



cheers

[UncleHo]

G'day Sideroad :)

These new draconian Qld rules only came into being late in 2010, and are currently being challenged by the Qld Combined Council of historic motoring clubs, I will be following this closely, as it is at odds with the new 2010 National regulations :(

As I understand it,at the moment as it stands in Qld no child under the age 16 can ride in any Historic registered vehicle.


cheers

[101RRS]

As I understand it,at the moment as it stands in Qld no child under the age 16 can ride in any Historic registered vehicle.
cheers

Unless the appropriate restraints are fitted.

[gromit]

Similar to VIC then ?

The child restraint laws were made compulsory so my 7 year old is just allowed back into my Series 1 (no seatbelts), mind you I had better check how much he weighs.

Child restraints : VicRoads (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/ChildRestraints/)

I did send a couple of emails to VIC Roads and it took a while to get an answer (which was slightly incorrect anyway). Basically up to the age of 7 (and 32kg) you need a capsule/booster seat/harness correctly mounted in the vehicle. No mounting points/seat belts (depending on restraint type) then they cannot legally be carried.

Colin

[101RRS]

I believe the eak Car Club body in NSW is seeking to get an exemption for the under 7s but only for vehicles on Historic Plates - there is a chance it will get up.

ACT has indicated that it will not recognise any exceptions granted in other states and will prosecute anyone breaking the rules in the ACT - irrespective where the vehicle is from.

Garry

[mike_k]

So, in Victoria, is a 2A LWB classed as a passenger car, an off road passenger vehicle or a light goods vehicle? Has anyone got a definitive answer from Vicroads?

Mine is an ex army GS, not a station wagon, and manufactured in 11 / 70.

It has the rear troop seats (only used on Anzac Day or similar), and is fitted with lap sash seat belt mounts, but came from auction with no belts fitted.

All good with no belts unless it is a passenger car.

Having said that, I have fitted seat belts, as it would be mad not to have them!

Cheers,

Mike.

[101RRS]

Having said that, I have fitted seat belts, as it would be mad not to have them!

Cheers,

Mike.

Then most likely you will need an engineers certificate.

[JDNSW]

Then most likely you will need an engineers certificate.

?Maybe not necessary - there is no way of knowing whether it came with seat belts (they were optional on the 2a by then - and my 1958 S2 was equipped with them when I got it in 1963, having had them from new) or was fitted with them before engineers certificates existed - and I have never seen any suggestion that engineers certificates are required for modifications made before such bits of paper existed.

John

[101RRS]

?Maybe not necessary -

John

I agree, but Mike said he had fitted seatbelts and I took that to mean he installed them from scratch - for sure if the mountings etc were there from new and he just added the belts then a report is not required - but installed from scratch (as many are on these older vehicles) then a report will be needed.

Garry

[JDNSW]

.....- but installed from scratch (as many are on these older vehicles) then a report will be needed.

Garry

Even if the belts were installed from scratch before engineers reports existed? How do you tell when they were installed? (other than by the age of the belts). And in this specific case, the mounts are bolt-on brackets, so how would anyone know whether the brackets were there from new or not?

When did engineers reports first exist? Presumably when ADRs first came in in the early seventies.

John

[mike_k]

This is a bit of a minefield.

To clear things up a bit, I purchased the 2A at auction in 1991. So it's a 2 owner 2A!

It was fitted with the appropriate factory seat belt mounts, (lower front of tub, rear outer part of seat box corners and the upper corners of the tub.)

There was no sign of them ever being used - about 3 or 4 coats of olive drab in all the threads. Wanting to live slightly longer, I fitted seat belts to the mounts, as at the time it was my daily driver.

The belts are still in good nick, correctly mounted etc. Never thought of an engineers certificate, and it has been registered in WA, QLD and now Vic.

My real question, after looking at the vicroads info (linked previously), relates to the Viroads classification of the 2A. If they think it is a passenger car - (unlikely but who knows) then it requires seat belts from 1969 on.

If it is an 'off road passenger vehicle' or a 'light goods vehicle', then these only needed belts in 1971.

The 2A is from 1970, right in the middle.

So has anyone been down this road in Vic before?

Thanks for the replies,

Cheers,

Mike.

[drifter]

Even if the belts were installed from scratch before engineers reports existed? How do you tell when they were installed? (other than by the age of the belts). And in this specific case, the mounts are bolt-on brackets, so how would anyone know whether the brackets were there from new or not?

When did engineers reports first exist? Presumably when ADRs first came in in the early seventies.

John

What if they were pre-existing but you replaced the belts because of their age and condition?

[JDNSW]

......

So has anyone been down this road in Vic before?

Thanks for the replies,

Cheers,

Mike.

Not exactly, but mine was purchased (in Victoria) from a dealer, who probably bought it at the same auction you did, and when I took delivery, it was registered in my name, fitted with new seat belts and no engineer's certificate.

It was transferred to NSW in 1992 or 1993 (I'd have to look it up!) and at that time was inspected by the RTA. No engineer's certificate and no problems.

The reality is probably that nobody is ever going to raise the question if it has the factory mounting points (as yours has) anyway. And it is very unlikely that anyone other than a Landrover expert would be able to tell if they were original.

If you check your rego papers they should say what Vicroads think it is, but when mine was registered in Vic it was definitely not as a passenger vehicle. (Mind you, NSW RTA think it is a tabletop, and they actually inspected it!)
John

[mike_k]

Exactly John, it is unlikely to ever become an issue.

I thought that I would check though, as I'm about to transfer it to Historic rego, and wanted to have an answer ready in case I got asked about the belts.

Unfortunately the rego papers classify it as a 'light vehicle' (code VL) which is anything under 4.5 tonnes GVM. - not entirely helpful..............

It is described on the rego as a 1970 Land Rover utility.

This does not match the seat belt bulletin on the Vicroads site.

I've had a look, and the bulletin from 2000 seems to be the latest info regarding seat belts, and refers to the passenger car, off road passenger car etc. categories. I've had a bit of a look and so far, can't find anything that identifies vehicles into these categories.

At the end of the day, I've got seat belts whether I need them or not, and that makes sense to me. What a Vicroads clerk might think however, may be entirely different......................:confused:

[mike_k]

Well, for anyone else needing this in the future, spoke to Vicroads this morning.

The 2A is classified as an off road passenger vehicle for the purposes of the ADRs. (Class MC)

Therefore seat belts only required under ADR 4 from 1/1/71.

There was a bit of checking with other people, and nothing in writing, but that's what they said.

Sounds straightforward...................

Did not ask them about the troop seats in the rear that bring it up to an 11 seater, or about the ADR compliance plate stating compliance with ADR 4 (seat belts), as well as the build date of 11/70.

Back to common sense, I've got them fitted anyway, but there is about 90 minutes of my life that I will never get back from holding on the Vicroads enquiry line!

Cheers,

Mike.