Puma engine Problems

[Dieseldog]

Been a loyal landie nut for 22 years, 8 different L/R vehicles. Bought first new landie this year (130 puma ute) did 11,300 km and cut out while driving along the road and refused to start. Cranks over but won't fire. Returned to dealer on back of truck. 3 weeks later and they still have no idea what is wrong.Landrover aus. refuses to lend me another vehicle until they know what the problem is.Dealer managed to get vehicle to start after 5 days, but informed me that the engine was running backwards!! (smoke coming out of air intake) Then they told me no.1 injector was stuck open, filling the cylinder with diesel. This is obviously a problem they have introduced, because if the injector was stuck open before, the engine would have at least coughed or attempted to fire while cranking over.Anyone had similar problems, or any ideas as I don't think the dealer has a clue. I am tearing my hair out, and just want my money back so I can buy another vehicle and get on with my life.Almost a month since it broke down now. Is this what they call the "landrover Experience" ?

[Blknight.aus]

Thats a corker...

water in the fuel can cause the injectors to stick open.

I know that older mechanical injected diesels can be made to run backwards if you pooch a stall start (I occasionally demo it unintentionally with the unimog while doing stall recoveries) but I was as sure as shooting that you couldnt do it to a modern electronic diesel Plus you have to turn the engine over backwards during startup to get it to run backwards, how the hell did they manage to get it to do that without destroying the statermotor and ring gear?

[Carlos]

Of all the things that trouble me about modern electronically controlled engines your problem encapsulates them all, they may be more fuel efficient and have reduced exhaust emissions, but for vehicle that by their very nature are supposed to be on roads less travelled, its not a good omen.

I'll be very interested to know the outcome of your problem.

[stig0000]

sounds like a ecu fault,, or the turbo harniss, all so, if the brake light fuse blows it will make the engine feel like its running on and the go realy ruff untill restarted,

[frantic]

Could they have run the starter motor backwards?

[Bundalene]

Been a loyal landie nut for 22 years, 8 different L/R vehicles. Bought first new landie this year (130 puma ute) did 11,300 km and cut out while driving along the road and refused to start. Cranks over but won't fire. Returned to dealer on back of truck. 3 weeks later and they still have no idea what is wrong.Landrover aus. refuses to lend me another vehicle until they know what the problem is.Dealer managed to get vehicle to start after 5 days, but informed me that the engine was running backwards!! (smoke coming out of air intake) Then they told me no.1 injector was stuck open, filling the cylinder with diesel. This is obviously a problem they have introduced, because if the injector was stuck open before, the engine would have at least coughed or attempted to fire while cranking over.Anyone had similar problems, or any ideas as I don't think the dealer has a clue. I am tearing my hair out, and just want my money back so I can buy another vehicle and get on with my life.Almost a month since it broke down now. Is this what they call the "landrover Experience" ?

I would suggest you go to print - write a letter to Land Rover Australia (send it registered express) Explain your situation, including your vehicle loyalty. Make sure you demand a courtesy or hire car. Send a CC to the dealer.

I would say you are being messed around by a local dealer who are out of their depth.

Follow it up with a phone call after a couple of days.

Erich

[Blknight.aus]

Could they have run the starter motor backwards?

no. that was part of the point I was trying to make.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

if the injector is stuck open,,
wont the cylinder eventually hydraulic?

[Blknight.aus]

on a td5 yes, from memory the rail pump for the puma is crank driven so once the crank stops so does the fuel flow. I doubt that enough would transfer in from the rail into the cylinder to fill it to capacity and the cranking effort would be low enough that it shouldnt bend anything if the engine came to a stop. once it was over TDC once it should expel enough fuel (past the rings or out the exhuast) that the next turn at compression would have enough room for normal compression BUT.

when the engine is turning on the starter there is no oil pressure so all the effort of locking the crank up against the fuel means the big end bearing is copping some pretty harsh treatment.

If I found out that my engine had been cranked over against a potentially hydraulic-ed cylinder or had actually started and run backwards (though I still dont think thats actually the case) Then Id be demanding a reco of the bottom end or a new engine.

[Barra1]

Gotta problem here - but I've got to make it very clear I'm not having a go at the Puma:(

Why are these unidentifiable problems appearing? Problems the dealers don't know how to rectify. The engine, if I am correct has been used in 56 million transit vans and covered 56 billion kilometres.

The problem? Why dont the dealers ring their friendly Ford Dealer and get the answer?

Am I being sarcastic? No - I just can't understand why there are any unexplainable engine problems - it is not as if it was the TD5 - a completely new engine.

[LowRanger]

Been a loyal landie nut for 22 years, 8 different L/R vehicles. Bought first new landie this year (130 puma ute) did 11,300 km and cut out while driving along the road and refused to start. Cranks over but won't fire. Returned to dealer on back of truck. 3 weeks later and they still have no idea what is wrong.Landrover aus. refuses to lend me another vehicle until they know what the problem is.Dealer managed to get vehicle to start after 5 days, but informed me that the engine was running backwards!! (smoke coming out of air intake) Then they told me no.1 injector was stuck open, filling the cylinder with diesel. This is obviously a problem they have introduced, because if the injector was stuck open before, the engine would have at least coughed or attempted to fire while cranking over.Anyone had similar problems, or any ideas as I don't think the dealer has a clue. I am tearing my hair out, and just want my money back so I can buy another vehicle and get on with my life.Almost a month since it broke down now. Is this what they call the "landrover Experience" ?


Is the reason that they think it is running backwards the fact that it is blowing smoke out the intake? If so,that is a very broad assumption.
It could be something as simple as incorrect valve timing??????
How do they know that no1 injector is stuck open?? Have they physically removed it and checked? Or have they just seen fuel in no1 cylinder?
Maybe the injector is being held open by an ecu or loom fault??

I think I would bring the matter up with your state automobile association and or consumer affairs,due to the time frame involved already.
It isn't rocket science,after all it is only an internal combustion engine,with minimal electronics to supply fuel,and the engine has been around for quite a few years,so there is no new technology.Obviously the people working on it are either incompetent or it is stuck in the corner of a workshop,where someone just looks at it occasionally when all the paying jobs are out of the way.

Wayne

[Nera Donna]

Sorry to hear of your plight.
I don’t have any answers for you, just a similar problem I had with mine.
March this year the Family, the Fender, the dog and I were all packed up and heading down the Freeway for four days of family fun and togetherness etc. About an hour and 15mins out of town the Fender, with only 8,000 odd clicks on it just died? One minute we’re traveling along at 110Kph the next, nothing. No warning lights, nada. Coasted to the side of the Freeway and pulled over. Tried to start the vehicle and it fired up and idled on problem, gave the engine a bit of a rev, once it hit 2000rpm it died again! Fired it up again and limped it (kept the engine under 2000rpm) until I was able to park it safely down a side road. I started thinking about fuel problems, where I filled up before I left home etc. Checked all the fuses and checked for sediment in the fuel filter. Nothing. Rang ‘Land Rover Assist’ and they sent out the RAC!! (What the?) He had no idea. To cut the story short and stop boring people to death. It was a tilt tray job back to the house and the next morning it was another tilt tray to the dealer ship. 10 hour round trip back to the house.
We went on our holiday in the wife’s shopping trolley and I picked the Fender up the following Monday.
Cause: #4 cylinder injector plug had come loose? I found that al little hard to believe? But the fault has not reoccurred? Questions where asked like ‘Were you driving on corrugated roads”? “Had you been 4wding”? No and no, but as mentioned before “these are off road vehicles and should not suffer from minor problems that stop you from doing what I perceive they were designed for.
I do hope they sort your problem out and get you back ‘off road’ again soon. Good luck.

[Blknight.aus]

Am I being sarcastic? No - I just can't understand why there are any unexplainable engine problems - it is not as if it was the TD5 - a completely new engine.

you might be forgetting Murphys law. Ive got plenty of experience with series rovers and every now and then something thats been around for 30+ years still manages to throw a curve ball.

the transit engine is a relatively new bit of kit and its a ford engine which isnt something that Rover have much to do with.

Its kinda like having a BBQ and demanding to know why the aussie at the grill cant do you a sausage meat doner kebab because after all its still food and its got the same basic ingredients.

[Dieseldog]

thanks to all for your suggestions & similar stories. I have involved Landrover Aus. since day one, and have worn out the re-dial button on the phone to them. The dealership has refused to do anymore work to the vehicle until we conceed that we may have to pay for the repair as they have found contamination in the fuel tank. Big deal I told them,I could drain the diesel tank on any vehicle and find contamination in it. What I want to know is how enough crap got through a 5 micron filter to damage the injectors after only 11 000 km. I put it to them that the filtration system on the vehicle is not up to the job. I feel this "contamination " b/s is a ploy for them to avoid honouring the warranty. I have heard from a few other people who were told the same thing, and were good enough to stump up the money (we are talking $8,500 - $10,000 !) I personally feel these common rail engines are not up to the job, they may be fine on the bitumen in Europe, but here we have long distances, high temps, rough roads, dust etc. These being the reason most of us choose a 4WD in the 1st place. Be warned fellow Puma owners, the fight continues!

[Dieseldog]

if the injector is stuck open,,
wont the cylinder eventually hydraulic?
Yes, that was my reply to the dealer.He claimed it had "hydrauliced" causing the piston to bounce back down, starting the engine in reverse. I said b/s, as the piston travels down & overcentre then up again,the diesel will still be above the piston and it will hydraulic again as it approaches top dead centre, sending the piston spinning forwards ?

[justinc]

What a load of cobblers. IF the cylinder had hydraulic lock enough to force the engine in reverse, it would've bent the connecting rod.

As to the fuel contamination subject, I would be asking for a copy of the fuel report. Perfectly useable and saleabl;e Diesel can 'fail' an industry standard due to very small particulates and moisture, which wouldn't effect the running of the engine. Once diesel fuel is exposed to the atmosphere, with its hydroscopic properties it will soon 'fail' stringent moisture test results, even though the fuel is quite OK for normal use.

JC

[Dieseldog]

Is the reason that they think it is running backwards the fact that it is blowing smoke out the intake? If so,that is a very broad assumption.
It could be something as simple as incorrect valve timing??????
How do they know that no1 injector is stuck open?? Have they physically removed it and checked? Or have they just seen fuel in no1 cylinder?
Maybe the injector is being held open by an ecu or loom fault??

I think I would bring the matter up with your state automobile association and or consumer affairs,due to the time frame involved already.
It isn't rocket science,after all it is only an internal combustion engine,with minimal electronics to supply fuel,and the engine has been around for quite a few years,so there is no new technology.Obviously the people working on it are either incompetent or it is stuck in the corner of a workshop,where someone just looks at it occasionally when all the paying jobs are out of the way.

Wayne
thanks, I have made around 15 calls to L/R each time asking for the next highest monkey up the tree. Was finally told I had reached the "end of the road" and could take my complaint no higher, but she "understood my frustration". I feel it is my Landrover that has reached "the end of the road" and she'll "understand my frustration" when I drive through the front door with a tank! Happy Landrovering.

[Blknight.aus]

Yes, that was my reply to the dealer.He claimed it had "hydrauliced" causing the piston to bounce back down, starting the engine in reverse. I said b/s, as the piston travels down & overcentre then up again,the diesel will still be above the piston and it will hydraulic again as it approaches top dead centre, sending the piston spinning forwards ?

not quite.... but then

for the same reason that you are incorrect the dealer is also incorrect. (thats to do with the phasing of the strokes)

if it was a 6 pot the logic for the "bounce" start off of a hydraulic'ed piston would be "technically" feasible but then you come up against the problem of... if the piston was hydraulic'ed to a stop and liquid doesnt compress and therefore cant be made to expand how does it push the piston back past it initial point given the entropy of the engery used to compress the air in the cylinder means that the piston wont move back past its starting point on compressed air alone....

so lets asssume that the non atomised fuel that was flooding the cylinder actually managed to compress and ignite and try to fling the crank backwards whats happened to the sprag on the statermotor that pulls the drive pinion out of mesh with the flywheel when the engine is started. For that matter what has happend to the teeth on the starter pinion and the ring gear.

While we're at that... get the dealer to put in writing that the engine was observed to be running backwards as evident by white smoke exiting the air intake.

once youve gotten that I'll provide you with the irrefutable documentation that should get you a new engine.

[LowRanger]

thanks, I have made around 15 calls to L/R each time asking for the next highest monkey up the tree. Was finally told I had reached the "end of the road" and could take my complaint no higher, but she "understood my frustration". I feel it is my Landrover that has reached "the end of the road" and she'll "understand my frustration" when I drive through the front door with a tank! Happy Landrovering.


As I mentioned,it is time to get some external entities involved,ring RACQ and Consumer affairs,they have special departments to deal with Automotive disputes,once you have spoken with them,then let the dealer and LRA know that you are taking it to the next level.Most dealerships don't like it when Consumer affairs become involved.

Wayne

[alittlebitconcerned]

Not another one. I really feel for you and wish you the very best of luck. I have NEVER heard so many stories of such frustration and anger when it comes to a car brand and their dealerships. Absolutely blatant disregard for the consumer who support the product. Disgusting.

[matthew2]

PAL I feel for you ! I bought a Def big mistake ! Trading it in for a V8 Crusier some dealers don't even want to trade them in because of there crappy reputation .

[sashadidi]

PAL I feel for you ! I bought a Def big mistake ! Trading it in for a V8 Crusier some dealers don't even want to trade them in because of there crappy reputation .


good luck with V8 engine

V8 has a bad rep here in NZ
anything like like the coal mines here who had 5 new engines out of 20 within a year, foresty gangs with engines only lasting 60000km and stuffed, farmers with water in fuel in the V8 common rail $30000 bills and toyota refuses to say there is a problem with fuel filtering system which s..t. Know a guy that is selling extra fuel filter systems to put in the V8 to stop crap getting in the engine and stuffing the rail

check here
Toyota 200 Series VX LandCruiser - Disaster @ ExplorOz Blogs (http://www.exploroz.com/Members/191481.125/6/2010/Toyota_200_Series_VX_LandCruiser_-_Disaster.aspx?ky=&p=%2fBlogs%2fDefault.aspx%3fpn%3d2)


quote from another post
Mate of mine had one of the first 100 series. Major work done two head jobs. Engine rebuild and at the end a full wraped in plastic engine replacement.

The cruser had 6 months warranty to go when the "new" motor went in and Toyota refused to give him any further warranty on the motor.

Another mate had a brand new 80 series. Took it to stockton on a LR club day and the radiator boiled much to our delight.

It took three trips to toyota to fix the radiator. Eventually they found it was 60% blocked with metal filings from the factory.
Reply With Quote

[eksjay]

When Ford originally sold its Transit vans in Aus, there were a lot of unhappy commercial operators around that complained of unreliability.

I don't mean to go OT, but couldn't LR fit some other engine into the engine bay? I understand that emissions controls prolly put an end to the Td5.

A car that has been around throughout the ages shouldn't be let down this way, and neither should people who buy into it. LR has to understand that when someone spends $50K plus onroads that they are obliged to follow through with fixes.

Ultimately, I think what some thread posters have said about modern diesel engines is correct. The latest engines are no where near as reliable as those dirty bullet proof polluting jobs that used to be made in bygone eras.

Perhaps LR should then be thinking about to some kind petrol based solution for next gen Deefer? Australia is a BIG country, and you cannot afford any element of surprise out in the back of beyond, that is, if the Deefer been able to get to the end of the city freeway to begin with...

[miky]

Now that Ford don't own LR they most probably will, what Indian motor would you like to see :D

As for this engine... Contaminated fuel is always going to be a problem for any common rail engine if it gets to the motor.
How did the contamination get to the engine? What was the contamination?

Earlier Puma's had water contamination - plenty of threads here as to why that happened. Now fixed.

Fuel filters an any car need to be checked, replaced etc. on a regular basis just like oil filter.

All of that said, until LRA provide a copy of the fuel report everyone is just guessing.

[dullbird]

When Ford originally sold its Transit vans in Aus, there were a lot of unhappy commercial operators around that complained of unreliability.

I don't mean to go OT, but couldn't LR fit some other engine into the engine bay? I understand that emissions controls prolly put an end to the Td5.

A car that has been around throughout the ages shouldn't be let down this way, and neither should people who buy into it. LR has to understand that when someone spends $50K plus onroads that they are obliged to follow through with fixes.

Ultimately, I think what some thread posters have said about modern diesel engines is correct. The latest engines are no where near as reliable as those dirty bullet proof polluting jobs that used to be made in bygone eras.

Perhaps LR should then be thinking about to some kind petrol based solution for next gen Deefer? Australia is a BIG country, and you cannot afford any element of surprise out in the back of beyond, that is, if the Deefer been able to get to the end of the city freeway to begin with...

To be honest I have come across more people that have had dramas with most other bits not the engines...in fact the engine has been the most reliable bit.

As for Australia being a big country..only in terms of space you still only have about 22Mil people in it not enough to give you a specific want on a car I would of thought..and people in europe just dont want petrols they are expensive.

[Hoges]

on the topic of CR diesel failure, the Golf TDI, MercML320, Jeep CRD, Peugeots, citroens...are they all having issues as well? ... so is it the CR diesel or perhaps something to do with quality control...after all, the servo selling to LR owners also sells to others...

it's well known from the top of Toyota -through their humble apologies and acknowledgment to the US congressional hearing - that they chased market share to the detriment of quality,,, further they (and Ford and GMH) have been demanding a 5% at least, reduction in cost in real terms, from their component suppliers year on year ...so what happens... Mercedes acknowledged couple of years ago similar issues with $200K+ chariots... heads rolled...

LR "coroprate" here do not necessarily share the love of the "LR DNA" evident in the forumites here... many are probably looking for the next career move elsewhere in the motor industry...it's just a business to them... sell cars one week, washing powder next week, etc

Toyota/Nissan/GMH/Ford dealers are no different...it's a business... don't get wrapped up in the spin doctors web...they borrow freely from true believers and do the minimum possible to maintain the good will...

So after that (I feel better:twisted:) within certain parameters Ford could have chosen from multiple diesels for the Deefer as long as it was supplied at the right price... think local jobs, parts suppliers etc etc, low volume seller (by comparison)...:eek: we'll use a Transit van donk...next question please...

It's all to do with cutting cost, cost cost...and it's ruthless...and applies to them acting like insurance assessors when it comes to warranty work... to curb excesses is why the Govt has the Trade Practices Act and provisions to do with warranties, reasonable expectations as regards product performance... it's worth a read;)...may give you some ideas for Round 2!

[one_iota]

As for this engine... Contaminated fuel is always going to be a problem for any common rail engine if it gets to the motor.
How did the contamination get to the engine? What was the contamination?




I agree with Miky and Lou on this and furthermore I sympathise with Dieseldog

On this thread (and some others) there is far too much condemnation of the entire vehicle range as a result of one unfortunate and extremely unusual occurrance (not withstanding some resistance from the dealer who is at the beck and call of LRA) the cause of which is still unknown. Dieseldog's request was simply if any other owners had experienced a similar issue.

No one has come forth with anything similar.

Yes we could demand the V6 petrol Discovery engine be put in instead. One Ford engine replaces another Ford engine. What about the ill fitting body panels, the rattling clutch, the vacuum pump, the rear diff, the rear pinion seal and I could go on.

But you know what I really don't appreciate are people who, Toyota-owner-like, propogate and spread tales of gloom about Land Rovers that might unjustly result in the depreciation of value of my reasonably good Defender. I will dismount the soap box now. :)

[PAT303]

A friend of my FIL just bought a Terrican or whatever it's called and after 4 days of ownership it stopped and has $15,000 worth of fuel system damage caused by dirty fuel. Pat

[rick130]

Just a FWIW (and I'm one to bag Land Rover when i deem it necessary, some around here think I bag 'em too much....) but other engines are having 'issues' too.

A friend is a rep for a vet pharmaceuticals company and drives one of those diesel powered Holden soft roaders.

A few months back it started to play up and rattle so she dropped it into the dealer.
They rang back and said we need it for a few days, gave here a loaner and replaced the engine.

A week later one of the other reps from Victoria rang, said here car had to go in and guess what, same problem.

The best she could describe it for me was a rod/crank problem.
I think one of the other reps did another one too.

[superquag]

Ouch ! - And I was seriously considering one of these in an old(er) Range Rover Vogue LSE, to replace the 8 cylinder Rover/Buick abomination ...
- Or would the current FORD 5 litre v-8 be a more 'Reliable' option?, - at least I've never heard of it running in reverse...

Seriously, this is one for a Current Affair-type TV program to take up. I'm certain that you *would* get a response!

Cheers from the West

'94 Vogue SE, - did'nt buy the LSE.....

[eksjay]

I agree with Hoges - most CRD engine makers have the same kind of problems with their client base. Contaminated fuel = critical engine damage/replacement. I thought that one of the pluses that LR was touting on the new Puma/Transit engine is that it can better deal with fuel quality issues in 3rd world countries. Is Australia part of the third world? I find it hard to lay the blame at the feet of the fuel makers or their outlets.

Perhaps when Incredible India decides on the next engine for the next incarnation of the Deefer, they will get it right.

[DeanoH]

What about the .............................. vacuum pump,................... . :)

A very interesting thread.

I was/am considering buying a 130 for outback travelling but this thread has seriously put the willies up me.
A friend has a late model transit and is now on his 3rd vacuum pump (all under warranty). The engine now needs replacing, something to do with the vacuum pump failure, lack of oil or contamination of some sort he has been told and is unsure if this will be covered by warranty.
My question is...............is this engine a piece of crap to be avoided at all costs?, should I look at a second hand TD5 version, wait and see if the Indians come up with something better or leave well alone?
I've had several Landys over the years, both petrol and diesel but know nothing of the current Defenders.
Any and all advice gratefully accepted.

ATTN MODS, MIGHT CONSIDER MOVING THIS TO .....THINKING OF GETTING A CURRENT DEFENDER, SORRY, DONT KNOW HOW TO QUOTE BETWEEN THREADS, DeanoH

Deano:)

[pc3]

Had my puma at auto elecs today getting a hid upgrade kit put into my drivers..... Near new hilux twin cab there alternator shorted or something and fried every fuse on the rug.......Thai Crap ????? Maybe we are just as well off with our Pommy Chariots??

All the makes seem to be having a few issues, maybe the tritons are the only ones that aren't, I never seem to see issues with them, but there butt ugly!!

[TimNZ]

All the makes seem to be having a few issues, maybe the tritons are the only ones that aren't, I never seem to see issues with them, but there butt ugly!!

Might have spoken too soon there pc3.....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/115057-mitsubishi-broken-chassis.html

(Although it looks like the accessories fitted didn't help)

[BilboBoggles]

Having been through exactly the same issue on my new PUMA, here's some things you might want to consider,.

1 - Where is the fuel tank breather on your puma? Is it located in a place that can pick up road spray?
2- There are two possible ways of water getting into your tank. From the fuel source, and from water leaking in. Mine was caused by a poorly located fuel breather sucking in water into the tank.
3- Check with the service stations you bought fuel from, have they had similar reports. Contaminated fuel from service stations is not common, and they would know if they have an issue, and if they have then may volunteer to fix it. Official Shell service stations are apparently quite good at owning up to issues and covering them.
4- DON'T panic. If it's a bad dump of fuel from the service station, then you're insurance company will cover the cost. They will claim from the service station for you. BUT don't lodge the claim until you have ruled out a faulty fuel breather or filler cap, otherwise your insurance rates will mysteriously raise the next year even if you cancel the claim.....

Land rover only need to find 40cc of water in the fuel filter to claim it's water contamination. Ask for a sample of this water. 40cc is really not a lot of water, and anything more than that and apparently it will overwhelm the factory filter. MY main argument is that Land rover have removed the ability to self service the fule filter on the PUMA, as you need a special tool to reprime the fuel system. They have also removed the water contamination warning light that would indicated a flooded filter. Therefore they must believe the filter is capable of surviving average Australian fuel conditions over the period between services. IF you look at the water standards for the fuel supply in Australia, I think you will find you can actually have more than 40cc of water in good diesel over 10,000k's. So therefore the vehicle is not fit for the purpose it was sold, ie the driving in Australia.....

[Nera Donna]

All this is very interesting. It’s a pity that the likes of ‘Dieseldog’ and I do believe ‘Dullbird’ (and probably others) had to find this out the hard and very expensive way that there seems to be an inherent floor in the Puma fuel system as far as water contamination is concerned.
My thoughts are, and something I will pursue before my beloved Puma falls victim to the same fate. Is the addition of an extra fuel filter with a heave sediment/water catchment bowl on the bottom, with possibly a fuel priming pump incorporated in the filter head. Right now I have no idea if any of this is possible let alone practical. But from my experience with engines I cant see why not. Any thoughts and or experiences with trying something similar?

Cheers
Craig

[spudfan]

http://www.mylocalvanhire.co.uk/vanblog/ar...omment-993
The above link is from the Defender2 site in the U.K. Seeks a lot of people are having bother with the new fuel Shell have developed.

[miky]

...
My thoughts are, and something I will pursue before my beloved Puma falls victim to the same fate. Is the addition of an extra fuel filter with a heave sediment/water catchment bowl on the bottom, with possibly a fuel priming pump incorporated in the filter head. Right now I have no idea if any of this is possible let alone practical. But from my experience with engines I cant see why not. Any thoughts and or experiences with trying something similar?
Cheers
Craig

Sounds like a great idea... BUT you would have no warranty on the fuel system etc.
No way would LRA cover you if something went wrong due to fuel.

OK if LRA installed it for you. I have already expressed my concern and asked about additional filtering system - I was told it is not needed and no way would they do it. This was verbal from a dealer by the way.


.

[sashadidi]

All this is very interesting. It’s a pity that the likes of ‘Dieseldog’ and I do believe ‘Dullbird’ (and probably others) had to find this out the hard and very expensive way that there seems to be an inherent floor in the Puma fuel system as far as water contamination is concerned.
My thoughts are, and something I will pursue before my beloved Puma falls victim to the same fate. Is the addition of an extra fuel filter with a heave sediment/water catchment bowl on the bottom, with possibly a fuel priming pump incorporated in the filter head. Right now I have no idea if any of this is possible let alone practical. But from my experience with engines I cant see why not. Any thoughts and or experiences with trying something similar?

Cheers
Craig

Yes has anyone managed to put in /adapt a extra say Racor fuel filter into the Puma fuel line as a extra insurance policy against the dirty fuel?

[Nera Donna]

Sounds like a great idea... BUT you would have no warranty on the fuel system etc.
No way would LRA cover you if something went wrong due to fuel.

OK if LRA installed it for you. I have already expressed my concern and asked about additional filtering system - I was told it is not needed and no way would they do it. This was verbal from a dealer by the way.


.

Excellent point about voiding your vehicle warranty. Maybe approaching Land Rover Australia direct and getting something in writing might have to be the first step?

[LR D4]

What I am doing until the Puma is out of warranty is just draining the fuel filter every month, I always get a small amount of water with every drain, also just change the fuel filter every year or 20000kms which ever is first, cheap insurance..... Also my Puma has been faultless, awsome car....

[dullbird]

All this is very interesting. It’s a pity that the likes of ‘Dieseldog’ and I do believe ‘Dullbird’ (and probably others) had to find this out the hard and very expensive way that there seems to be an inherent floor in the Puma fuel system as far as water contamination is concerned.
My thoughts are, and something I will pursue before my beloved Puma falls victim to the same fate.
Is the addition of an extra fuel filter with a heave sediment/water catchment bowl on the bottom, with possibly a fuel priming pump incorporated in the filter head. Right now I have no idea if any of this is possible let alone practical. But from my experience with engines I cant see why not. Any thoughts and or experiences with trying something similar?

Cheers
Craig

I was advised against this by an independent Land Rover mechanic...he said by putting an extra filter in the line you may possibly introduce resistance (probably not the right word) into the system. can prevent the fuel getting where it needs to go quickly enough.

[woko]

All the makes seem to be having a few issues, maybe the tritons are the only ones that aren't, I never seem to see issues with them, but there butt ugly!!

Talking with one of the Cummins servicemen at work there triton has had 2 engines in under 5000km

[Blknight.aus]

I was advised against this by an independent Land Rover mechanic...he said by putting an extra filter in the line you may possibly introduce resistance to flow/restriction(probably not the right word) into the system. can prevent the fuel getting where it needs to go quickly enough.

near enough. technical correct speak in pretty blue.


the transit lift pump does not do well against excessive restriction to flow. I have heard of but not from a reliable source that you can fit a facet pump post filter pre lift pump to assist the lift pump if you add aditional filters or want an easy prime method. I suspect that that trick may only work properly with the oldschool transit engine but might be worth bringing up with your local service dept.

[Dieseldog]

The saga continues , it seems i have stirred up a hornets nest with my problems my ever "helpful" dealership has now cited five different possible reasons for this failure it seems we are going for the lets see what the customer will belive and pay for strategy of customer service. Landrover unassisit has been just as cooperavtive i have in my few short hours digging around on the internet discovered a problem that no-one associted with Landrover in Aus has ever heard of ( breather pipe problems) . WOW its like wining the lottery:( If anyone has an explanation for the next problem i would really love to know . How can a gerbox fail when the engine doesn't go ? ............ Ask My friendly local landrover delaership ( nothing underhand sir I promise :angel:) . Great 11000km engine knackered new gearbox required FFS what next ???
Anyone want to trade a good 300 TDI :)
Has anyone any idea how to contact anyone within landrover (other than the customer "help" centre) any number we try is pretty useless . We need to talk to some one actually in Landrover . Any help gratefully recieved.
Dieseldog

[edddo]

I would be looking for an independent assessment of the vehicle along with some good legal advice. Get as much in writing from your dealer as to suspected causes and problems as possible. They should not argue with your request for a written chronology of events and assessments from their perspectve. Keep a diary of everything they say. Make it plain you are collecting evidence so that you can pursue your case to have the situation rectified. Start a formal grievance with your dealer and with Landrover. Mention you are seeking legal advice. They need to see that you are not going to wait around believing that they are looking after your interests - stir it up. In consultation with your solicitor decide if your insurance policy may be a viable way to deal with the situation?

[eksjay]

Think outside the square...

Why don't you visit the workshop of your nearest Ford Dealership, particularly if they have a commercial fleet service dept....?

Ask people in the workshop about the Transit engine. After all, there would be far more Transit vans than Pumas on the road.

If you come up with nothing ... then it must be something between the engine and some other part that LR has bolted together when it was owned by Ford.

Find some Transit forum somewhere... bound to exist...

Good Luck, hope you find the answers that you seek.

[Blknight.aus]

found it....

using the same filter that is the primary filter in a series diesel and a facet pump. If you want to be nice to the facet pump you install 2 filters one before the pump and one after. If you're not worried about the pump you only need one.

theres a couple of ways of hooking it up and here is how I would do it.

on the top of the filter housing there is 4 ports 2 ins and 2 outs.

take the normal fuel line that supplies the current filter and cut it in half one side goes into an in port on the fuel filter and the other the out. Cut the line between the new filter and the tank and install the pump.

From the other outlet port of the filter fit a restriction piece and then connect a return line from there back to the tank-filler breather with a 2 piece (the t piece is usually sufficient to act as a restriction piece.)

jobs done apart from wiring up the the electrics for the facet pump.

[LRO53]

I agree with Hoges - most CRD engine makers have the same kind of problems with their client base. Contaminated fuel = critical engine damage/replacement. I thought that one of the pluses that LR was touting on the new Puma/Transit engine is that it can better deal with fuel quality issues in 3rd world countries. Is Australia part of the third world? I find it hard to lay the blame at the feet of the fuel makers or their outlets.

Perhaps when Incredible India decides on the next engine for the next incarnation of the Deefer, they will get it right.

That marketing thing saying the Puma is for 3rd World is rubblish... The Td5 Fuel system had 3 micron filter and it was self priming! So you could run out in the middle of the desert.. I think we are just going backwards with this engine.

Fuel Filter Td5:http://www.lrdirect.com/esr4686g-element-fuel-filter-td5-britpart.html?click=srclick
(This was the only place i could find images. LR Direct are not cheap)
Fuel Filter Tdci: http://www.lrdirect.com/product.php?productid=66242&cat=418620&page=1&click=srclick

[Pedro_The_Swift]

. I think we are just going backwards with this engine.


now there's a surprise!
From a ground up clean sheet of paper, Land Rover Off Road engine--
To a cheap, readily available, alternative.

I'm dying to see what Tata put under the bonnet:eek::eek:

[justinc]

now there's a surprise!
From a ground up clean sheet of paper, Land Rover Off Road engine--
To a cheap, readily available, alternative.

I'm dying to see what Tata put under the bonnet:eek::eek:

...Maybe they should buy a few pallet loads of those Chinese NEW 4BD1T's...:wasntme:


JC

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Isuzu 4bd1-Isuzu 4bd1 Manufacturers, Suppliers and Exporters on alibaba.com (http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/isuzu-4bd1.html)

[rick130]

...Maybe they should buy a few pallet loads of those Chinese NEW 4BD1T's...:wasntme:


JC


I was waiting for someone to say it, but didn't think it would be you :lol2:

[eksjay]

dupe post oops.

[eksjay]

Tata Engine? I think we have reached the point of no return with dirty diesel engines, but not quite there yet with the CRD. So the answer is that we get another cafe late situation, or something that has guts.

I know a lot of purists here will disagree, that the most suitable engine for Ozzy outback, is the trusty inline 4.0L 6cyl petrol engine.

These taxi cab powerplants are everywhere and they can be found in the bush a plenty.

While Ford dropped a Transit donk for European acceptance and domestic considerations, I think an alternative for the export southern hemisphere market, even the US of A, could have been a reliable 4.0L straight six.

Of course, they would need to expand the fuel tank capacity. I have seen beaten up Falcons plough the Oodnadatta Track and the Mereenie Loop Road several times during my travels - no shortage of spare parts and service - never a problem with fuel mixtures - and these things can do several hundred thousand KMs before needing an overhaul.

Of course such a 4.0L powertrain would need to be carefully mated with the right gear box, and I appreciate that this is where the existing Puma powerplant and tranny are well suited to slow and delicate applications.

[Scallops]

[QUOTE=eksjay;1354075

I know a lot of purists here will disagree, that the most suitable engine for Ozzy outback, is the trusty inline 4.0L 6cyl petrol engine.

[/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true Jeep Freak! :D :p

[miky]

What am I missing here about the unreliability of the Puma engine?

From what I read on this forum it is pretty rare that an engine has major problems unlike some other makes.
The only real problems I can think of is if you let water get in the fuel and now that the tank breather has been relocated... ?




.

[Naks]

What am I missing here about the unreliability of the Puma engine? From what I read on this forum it is pretty rare that an engine has major problems unlike some other makes.The only real problems I can think of is if you let water get in the fuel and now that the tank breather has been relocated... ?

Friend of mine in Namibia at the moment, his Puma dropped a valve - engine kaput!

LRSA does not have spare engines and apparently neither does LRUK, so he has to wait for LRUK to build an engine and then ship it to Namibia. :o

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Tata Engine? I think we have reached the point of no return with dirty diesel engines, but not quite there yet with the CRD. So the answer is that we get another cafe late situation, or something that has guts.

I know a lot of purists here will disagree, that the most suitable engine for Ozzy outback, is the trusty inline 4.0L 6cyl petrol engine.

These taxi cab powerplants are everywhere and they can be found in the bush a plenty.

While Ford dropped a Transit donk for European acceptance and domestic considerations, I think an alternative for the export southern hemisphere market, even the US of A, could have been a reliable 4.0L straight six.

Of course, they would need to expand the fuel tank capacity. I have seen beaten up Falcons plough the Oodnadatta Track and the Mereenie Loop Road several times during my travels - no shortage of spare parts and service - never a problem with fuel mixtures - and these things can do several hundred thousand KMs before needing an overhaul.

Of course such a 4.0L powertrain would need to be carefully mated with the right gear box, and I appreciate that this is where the existing Puma powerplant and tranny are well suited to slow and delicate applications.

er, cough cough, its a V6 petrol,,,;)

[justinc]

I was waiting for someone to say it, but didn't think it would be you :lol2:

:D:p:p:p


It's no secret that I am a simple sort of person, I like Simple sorts of Engines. The 4BD1 is about the best and simplest Landy fitted engine there is, at least the most torquey in Turbo guise aswell:cool:.

I fully expect mine to last a further 20 years in the County, That'll mean it Came from a 1988 110 (425K), it went into a 1992 RRC, ( Further 120K) and now it is going BACK into a 1985 110. (possibly see it out to a Mill??:eek:)

How many OTHER donks can you say that about???
:D:D:D


JC

[Blknight.aus]

the 2.25NA series Diesel. mines been in 4 so far... and in the last one it doesnt even run diesel, well mostly.

[justinc]

the 2.25NA series Diesel. mines been in 4 so far... and in the last one it doesnt even run diesel, well mostly.

Agreed, but I was talking about a torquey and economical touring engine...:eek:

The 2.25 NA is a fantastic work engine, unable to be killed with a big stick, it just isn't very user friendly for touring, (although you DID manage the cape in one...:D)

JC

[frantic]

Actually pedro both the previous jeep wrangler/cherokee 4L(new model's have a 3.8L V6) and the current evernew(same bore alignment since the 60's was written somewhere) ford 4L 6cyl's are straight sixes.
The problem with the fords 6 was that they had an issue with losing bolts in the late 90's/ early 00's inside the head valve cover area and these did not do many favours for the valves etc. They also ran hotter in the early days than the 186 holden(best motor for the series II/III but shh dont mention the 202) as a replacement for the 2.1/4 landy engine in the series. some of the early alloy head foilcan sixes also had warping problems BUT the latest falcon 6's from around the intro of the XR6 turbo are proving to be far more durable if only they got their LPG system right:confused: And did not go the cheapest option:confused:

[eksjay]

I don't wanna hijack the thread in any way, but when I raised the idea of a 4.0L I6 powertrain, I was not specifically talking of a Jeep XJ Cherokee. Although I have been extremely happy with it, and anyone venturing Jeep forums will be hard pressed to find threads about engine problems - there are plenty of threads however about CRDs, their probs, and maintenance issues.

I have run a 6cyl Falcon long distances from EL to the current models and they are built to last over long distances. Why else would cab companies run more Fords than Holdens in their fleets?

Granted, Chrysler abandoned the 4.0L Powertech I6 Engine in the recent incarnations of the Chekka and Wrangler, but the life cycle of these newer cars are unlikely to match the 4.0L I6 fitted XJ or TJ.

The Puma engine? It is clean, torquey, excellent for slow work etc, but it is not a long distance engine, and CRD support [and software support] in the middle of bugger all is basically a tow [after a longgggggggggggggg wait] to the nearest roadhouse, and then .... a table top truck ride back to the eastern seaboard. In fact, hang around long enough at a LR dealership and watch these table top trucks keep rolling in!

Not saying anything about the Landy itself, but the engine choice for transcontinental work in Southern Hemisphere or even the North American market. It applies to LR, Jeep, Toyota, ... the lot of them...

[dullbird]

So how many go into the dealers with engine problems is what I actually want to know.

You are right you can watch the trucks roll in I have witnessed it myself BUT how do you know they have come in with engine problems is what puzzles me when you make that comment

[one_iota]

That's a fair question Lou.

I haven't suffered the ignominy of a table top retrieval (except for the Disco once) I imagine that roadside assist isn't really equipped to do much other than diagnose and replace a flat battery. Therefore any other issue will result in a "transport of no delight".

[dullbird]

Thats right Mahn and my car has been on the table top twice but it was for the immobiliser...that I dont consider to be an engine fault.

I know of someone that had a major diff failure again not an engine problem. even starter motors again not an engine problem.

other then the EGR for some people and the vaccum pump for others, oh and the very fist batch of puma engines (07's) with the stuck oil jet I dont know anyone that has actually had engine failure..and for those that have had major engine problems that I know of has been caused by fuel contamination due to bad breather location..

does that make it an unreliable engine? I'm not sure I dont think it does.

[one_iota]

I add that my Disco's trip on a table top was as a result of an engine failure: the dreaded 300Tdi head gasket issue

[stig0000]

-dullbird-

there has been a colpe throw rods/ cracked heads, and one that wanted to be a td5 so bad it droped all oil presser, ;);) injector pumps are now starting to leak we have found, and there is a new overlay harness for the turbo,

[McBrain]

LR "coroprate" here do not necessarily share the love of the "LR DNA" evident in the forumites here... many are probably looking for the next career move elsewhere in the motor industry...it's just a business to them... sell cars one week, washing powder next week, etc


Spot on! Don't make the mistake of thinking that the dealers have any interest in the marque whatsoever.

[Scouse]

You'll like to hear that LR HQ & a lot of dealers have some very enthusiastic Land Rover owners amongst their ranks.

They all try their best to make life easier for fellow LR owners but often there's only so much they can do.

[pc3]

-dullbird-

there has been a colpe throw rods/ cracked heads, and one that wanted to be a td5 so bad it droped all oil presser, ;);) injector pumps are now starting to leak we have found, and there is a new overlay harness for the turbo,

So after your warranty expires whats the best replacement motor to drop in.......putting a new "reliable" motor in is cheaper than buying a new car !! Would the 1 Hz 6cyl naturally aspirated diesel fit in ?

Sometimes you can buy them new for 7k aprox.....no electrics.....

Just thinking, if they "PUMAS" are not going to be 10 yr cars then you either drive the crapper out of it for 2.5yrs and sell with 6mnth warranty left, or you prepare for the in evitable buy a new engine that will be a 15-20yr motor at the 4 or 5 yr mark if they really are that bad.

I suppose as a PUMA owner you need a plan, we all spend a lot of $$ setting these trucks up, I honestly would like 10 to 15 yrs out of it.

[LowRanger]

[QUOTE=eksjay;1354733]I don't wanna hijack the thread in any way, but when I raised the idea of a 4.0L I6 powertrain, I was not specifically talking of a Jeep XJ Cherokee. Although I have been extremely happy with it, and anyone venturing Jeep forums will be hard pressed to find threads about engine problems - there are plenty of threads however about CRDs, their probs, and maintenance issues.

I guess that J##p forum members must be told not to mention the fact that they are prone to overheating.Everytime the temps get up,you see them in workshops,and especially on the beaches,with their bonnets up,overheating!!!!

[QUOTE=eksjay;1354733]I have run a 6cyl Falcon long distances from EL to the current models and they are built to last over long distances. Why else would cab companies run more Fords than Holdens in their fleets?

All the alloy crossflow 6 cylinder Ford engines are prone to leaking headgaskets,usually caused by broken head bolts.Not to mention the problems they have keeping the oil inside the engine:eek:
But they are relatively simple engines and as such are used in Taxis,and are quick and not expensive to repair/replace,is why they are used.