I’m after some help on the new Defender

[IanA]

Hi all, I need help.:D

I’ve been taking a look at the new LR Defender, at face value they seem to be great.


My only concerns are its towing abilities with the Ford 2.4 ltr diesel.



They show a remarkable 7000kg GCM and 3.5 tonne, braked towing capacity.


I’m probably going to be towing around 2.5 tonne with a caravan, and I imagine that there would be some here that have experience towing a van with the new model, and will share their thoughts?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Ian.

[stig0000]

it is a tiny engine and dose need to work hard, so dont expect to get anywere too fast;) saying that its ok, like its only trying to move twice its own weight now

[BilboBoggles]

Actually the biggest problem that I would have is that it's not an automatic gearbox. Apart from that, the PUMA has amazing torque, and will out tow some older V8 sedan's. I think it will come down to what you expect it to do. You'll never get stuck towing on hill with it. (MY old kingswood did with a double horse float and two big horses..)

[JohnR]

We've towed a heavy camper trailer everywhere, Cape York to the High Country plus race cars on car trailers up Cunninghams Gap. No issues at all. Much better than the standard TD5 (never chipped mine so I can 't comment) the 6 speed box is great for this 5th gear drop's it back enough to get up most medium hills no worries.

They make a great tow vehicle, most of the time you hardly notice the load.

Cheers,

[dmdigital]

As I've said in numerous posts... 26,000km towing a 1.5t Kamper around Australia. No problems.

[spudboy]

If you're coming from a LC or Patrol, 2.4 does not sound like enough, but it is a cracking engine. 0-100 may not be the quickest, but it pulls amazingly.

[IanA]

If you're coming from a LC or Patrol, 2.4 does not sound like enough, but it is a cracking engine. 0-100 may not be the quickest, but it pulls amazingly.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I'm actually coming from a Nissan Navara, 3.2 with aftermarket turbo. So I'm used to working a little on the hills. :D

My only concerns are keeping a respectable pace in hilly country and not being a pest to all and sundry. lol.

I used to haul a float with two large stock horses around in my old series three diesel and was happy with that, but traffic moves a little quicker these days.

[Scallops]

I'd be more concerned with other aspects of owning a Puma - the towing ability is not one of their problems.

Have a read through this forum and get a feel for how people who own these vehicles are going with them. They are almost a mystical beast - 'cos no matter what, we Defender owners just love 'em.

[IanA]

I'd be more concerned with other aspects of owning a Puma - the towing ability is not one of their problems.

Have a read through this forum and get a feel for how people who own these vehicles are going with them. They are almost a mystical beast - 'cos no matter what, we Defender owners just love 'em.

Thanks for that.

The thread about the engine failure is a bit of a worry.

I had a fella here the other day with a Ford transit, same engine. He was totally wrapped in his, though, it was only 5 months old. It was being used as a courier van so it did have a few k's on it already.
Cheers, Ian.

[Naks]

My only concerns are its towing abilities with the Ford 2.4 ltr diesel.

Do not be concerned ;)

Land Rover Defender Towing a 12 Tonne Truck: YouTube - Land Rover Defender Towing a 12 Tonne Truck.

[one_iota]

Do not be concerned ;)

Land Rover Defender Towing a 12 Tonne Truck: YouTube - Land Rover Defender Towing a 12 Tonne Truck. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jhuKLrjJLg)

WARNING This will void your warranty

[Naks]

WARNING This will void your warranty

:wasntme:

[one_iota]

:lol2:
:wasntme:

[trailcutter]

:)less is more .............find the sweet spot on the 2.4,,,,,,,,and the thing just ticks along with the turbo singing quietly...for a 2.4 it appears to produce great tourque with very little effort...short shift like a hd is the key.

[pc3]

:)less is more .............find the sweet spot on the 2.4,,,,,,,,and the thing just ticks along with the turbo singing quietly...for a 2.4 it appears to produce great tourque with very little effort...short shift like a hd is the key.

Int the 2.402 PUMA motor actually a light truck motor and has Heavy Duty characteristics (cast iron ribbed block etc.) that make it more durable than say a regular Jap motor such as the D4D ?

The new Ford Ranger will have a 5cyl 3.2 l turbo diesel engine that will put out 460nm torque.......that would have been nice in the PUMA ?

[Naks]

:)less is more .............find the sweet spot on the 2.4,,,,,,,,and the thing just ticks along with the turbo singing quietly...for a 2.4 it appears to produce great tourque with very little effort...short shift like a hd is the key.

All good and well, BUT:

A smaller engine must be more highly stressed to deliver the same output as a bigger engine. Inevitably, this means the 2.4 engine will not last very long - and by very long I mean compared to the Tdi engines out there that are still missioning up and down Africa in the 400-500,000km mark.

I doubt the Puma engine will last that long... :angel:

[newhue]

All good and well, BUT:

A smaller engine must be more highly stressed to deliver the same output as a bigger engine. Inevitably, this means the 2.4 engine will not last very long - and by very long I mean compared to the Tdi engines out there that are still missioning up and down Africa in the 400-500,000km mark.

I doubt the Puma engine will last that long... :angel:

Oh I don't know, the PUMA has been de tuned to have only 90kw of power, and relatively low pressure on the common rail bar, 6000psi I have been told. It's married to good gear box so if looked after it will probably get there. On another hand if it were similar to Mitsubishi's current 2.5lt which has 131kw and runs 30 000psi at the rail I'd agree with you.
I think the long term issues for a puma common rail is fuel quality/purity.
But this is just mho.

[miky]

...
I think the long term issues for a puma common rail is fuel quality/purity.
But this is just mho.

I tend to agree. A few posts on here about fuel issues.
Would like to fit more/better(?) filtering but am very wary about warranty issues. But once the 3 years are up...



.

[Naks]

I think the long term issues for a puma common rail is fuel quality/purity. But this is just mho.

Indeed, that's why since Day 1 I have been adding 2-stroke oil to every tank. :)

[pc3]

Indeed, that's why since Day 1 I have been adding 2-stroke oil to every tank. :)

What brand 2 stroke do you add and how much ?

How will this help again ?

[Naks]

What brand 2 stroke do you add and how much ? How will this help again ?

Any brand, as long as it's JASO-FC rated.

I recently started using 2-stroke in my Audi A3 2.0 TDi - it now goes as well as it did when it was brand new!

This is a post from someone on another forum, he runs a whole fleet of classic cars, a Disco1 and has many years of experience in 4x4 maintenance in the Swiss Army. Obviously the setting is South Africa, but you can generalise:



This has in the last two years gained a lot of momentum in Germany, after they started mixing 5% bio diesel with the normal diesel fuel. Now bio diesel in Germany is a mixture of raps seed oil and ethanol. This makes the concoction hygroscopic, i.e. it will absorb moisture (water!!!). You now get an idea why there is such a high failure rate on VHP pumps and injectors on CRD engines in Europe.

This whole concept of mixing 2-stroke oil with diesel is nothing new. It started in Scandinavia and Northern USA among the fishermen' fleets in Winter.

But in our south african context, we first have to get a proper understanding about the quality of diesel:

1. Normal diesel is 500ppm sulphur content - Cetane - lower
2. Premium diesel is 50ppm sulphur content - Cetane - higher
3. "African countries diesel (Sadec countries and further north) can be anything up to 8000ppm sulphur content

If we now go back to the olden days of 10-15 years ago, it was not uncommon for diesel in SA to have a 3000ppm sulphur content. In those days one had to change the oil every 5000km as otherwise one ended up with a jelly like substance in the engine, also called the black death or sludge.

I am now going back to the topic at hand. The highest cetane rating in SA diesel is found in the Sasol 50ppm diesel. This 50ppm diesel (irrespective of brand) also has a reduced lubrication property which leads to defective injectors, see for example Toyota 3 litre bakkie engines.

In two-stroke oil we get 4 different quality ratings, which are based on the JASO (Japanese Automotive Standards Org.) scale:

JASO-FA very basic single grade SAE30 or SAE40 based 2-stroke oil (premix only)

JASO-FB Used for most premix industrial 2-stroke engines and scooters

JASO-FC "Low ash burn" used for separate oil injection and most outboard motors. this oil can be mineral or part synthetic

JASO-FD This is fully synthetic 2-stroke oil for racing engines. It is not suitable for mixing with diesel, because a) too expensive and b) not compatible with cats and particle filters.

For All Series LR and Disco1 and 2 a Jaso-FB rated oil is fine. For Disco 3 and 4 a JASO-FC rated oil has to be used, such as the Fuchs oil.

Now in order to provide better lubrication but at the same time also better power delivery from the engines, the ideal solution seems to be to add 2-stroke oil (see above) in a mixing ratio of 1:200 i.e. 500ml per 100lt diesel. This will increase the cetane rating by 3-5 points and will provide the following benefits:

1. Much better and more complete combustion (lower EGT)

2. Self cleaning of engine internals, as JASO-FC compliant 2-stroke oil burns cleaner and better than diesel. Due to this there is also about a 3-5% gain in fuel economy.

3. Sufficient lubrication of high pressure components in the diesel injection system.

4. Much quieter starting in the morning and smoother running

5. Reduced smoking

6. In engines with particle filter "burn free" action is reduced from every 600-700km to between every 1200-2000km

7. Much lower "clowd content" of diesel exhaust fumes typically from 0.95 down to 0.47. This is measured in Germany at the TüV.

8. Large government fleets in Germany report fleet reliability (MB Cdi, BMW CRD, Audi Tdi etc. etc. to exceed 400'000km WITHOUT VHP pump or injector failures https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/469.jpg

So the above deliberations give some well documented indication, why adding 2-stroke oil to diesel is such a clever move.

[dgroom]

Interesting!... this may explain why I was told by the LR dealer never to put bio-diesel in my new 130.

[rick130]

[snip]

I am now going back to the topic at hand. The highest cetane rating in SA diesel is found in the Sasol 50ppm diesel. This 50ppm diesel (irrespective of brand) also has a reduced lubrication property which leads to defective injectors, see for example Toyota 3 litre bakkie engines.

In two-stroke oil we get 4 different quality ratings, which are based on the JASO (Japanese Automotive Standards Org.) scale:

JASO-FA very basic single grade SAE30 or SAE40 based 2-stroke oil (premix only)

JASO-FB Used for most premix industrial 2-stroke engines and scooters

JASO-FC "Low ash burn" used for separate oil injection and most outboard motors. this oil can be mineral or part synthetic

JASO-FD This is fully synthetic 2-stroke oil for racing engines. It is not suitable for mixing with diesel, because a) too expensive and b) not compatible with cats and particle filters.

[snip]
Totally wrong, JASO FD is a road bike/OPE formulation, it has nothing to do with 'racing' oil specs.
They are generally fairly thin (around 7-8cSt @ 100*C) to meet the injector specs for scooters.

Pure race two stroke oils aren't rated and are typically 13-17cSt @ 100*C in viscosity.

JASO FD oils provide enhanced detergency and cleanliness over JASO FC oils, and hence pretty much only synthetic oils can meet this spec.

Where on earth the part about not compatible with CATS and Particulate filters comes from has me beat. To meet the cleanliness and detergency part of the FD spec they need to burn incredibly cleanly.
Some US sold chainsaws have Cat converters and the factory oils recommended are fully synthetic JASO FD specification although JASO FC oils are acceptable.

Redline, one of the worlds premier boutique oil blenders use their ashless ester synthetic two stroke lubricant in their diesel fuel additives.

Current Australian specification diesel (<10PPM sulphur) follows European diesel specs and has lubricity enhancers (lubricant) added to meet the lubricity of the old dirty diesel and always has since 500PPM, then 50PPM diesel was introduced.

I've added two stroke to my diesel and never noticed anything ?

I didn't expect to, I was only doing it for a bit of extra lube for the pump on the 300Tdi.

[PAT303]

There is more to towing than the motor,LR's do have smaller engines than the Japanese but the overall package eg motor/gearbox/suspension etc is alot better.I'm going to run two stroke oil in my puma because of the water issue but I did take the lid off my Tdi pump and it has bugger all wear except for the throttle shaft.Not bad for 400,000+ k's. Pat