How to integrate rear indicator lights with pork pies without changing originality?

[Hebe]

How to integrate rear indicator lights with pork pies without changing originality?

Hi everyone,

Hebe is almost ready, yes I said that a year ago as well.... but this time really. Sunday working on the last things, and then the engine back in... So, about two more weeks and presto.

I brought everything (as far as possible) back to originality.

I was the idiot who ebayed and spend a fortune on two new old stock pork pies last year. And they look good. I removed the modern trailer lights and it looks great. I did replace the bulbs inside with halogen bulbs that can handle rear lights and stop lights.

For the front I think I will use the side lights as indicators. It has the white frosted glass but I can put amber/yellow colour bulbs behind them. That would fix the front (low beam, high beam, indicators).

Now I am of course missing rear indicators. I am wondering what others did as a solution to this.... keeping it original but still getting rear indicators.

Did you put an extra bulb in the pork pies? If so, how, where, and is it effective enough to say these are safe indicators? Do you have any pictures? The pork pies have both bottom clear glass which I could of course turn sideways for the purpose.

However, I also saw someone who put some motorcycle indicators on the body. I believe that there was no objection when he went to the inspection for registration. I wouldn't want to attach those to the body. But it made me think.... maybe I can make a bracket to the back of the bumper where I can slot in (and out) a piece of metal with the trailer lights on it. Then have some connectors to the lights. Thus I can remove them easily to bring back to full originality, and on long trips I can put them on for a safe journey.

But maybe someone had a different solution? I would of course prefer not to weld brackets and have trailer lights on the rear. So did someone effectively add rear indicators to the pork pies? Or maybe you have another idea?

Pictures, drawings, or references to other posts are of course most welcome.

Thanks

[Tote]

I wouldnt put orange globes in the front, I'd leave them white would be OK for a vehicle that age. What are you doing about parking lights at the front?
If you could get a dual filament lamp on the front it would be OK to have the existing park lamps as blinkers as well.

Regards,
Tote

[isuzutoo-eh]

I wouldnt put orange globes in the front, I'd leave them white would be OK for a vehicle that age. What are you doing about parking lights at the front?
If you could get a dual filament lamp on the front it would be OK to have the existing park lamps as blinkers as well.

Regards,
Tote

What Tote describes is what my 2a has at the front. The parkers dull when the indicators are used, but that may be unintentional due to current draw. Mine wasn't built with indicators, they were added after release from the NSW police fleet. The rear has common trailer indicator housings/lenses, which would be period correct for its release into civillian hands.

[101RRS]

Two posts on the Series 1 Club Website. The station wagon use twin filament in the front parkers and the brake light in the rear Pork Pie but special SW wiring is required.

Login (http://www.lrsoc.com/forum/index.php'topic=6837.0)

Login (http://www.lrsoc.com/forum/index.php'topic=6884.msg45934#msg45934)

[Scallops]

Do you need blinkers? In Qld at least, if they were never fitted, they are not necessary. :angel:

[zulu Delta 534]

Way back in the dark ages when I was a pup and flashing indicators (replacing "B" pillar mounted trafficators - or A pillar in the case of the S1) were only just coming into vogue, it was common practice to use the existing park/tail lights as indicators.
When the lights were in use (in the dark) then the rear tail and park light current source was interrupted by the flasher unit and the tail/park lights blinked (in the case of European and British cars which ran their park lights in conjunction with their headlights - unlike American vehicles which did not.)
This was perfectly legal back in those days so it may be an interesting exercise to ascertain whether the actual law has been altered, or whether simply the relevant transport department's guidelines.
I believe that hand signals are still legal and acceptable, but these are sometimes easily confused with someone throwing a smoke out the window or perhaps drying their finger nail polish!
Regards
Glen

[Hebe]

Thats right.... I still will dry my nail polish that way.... :D

As far as I understand I don't have to do anything by law, as long as the car is original and was as such legal at the time of introduction to Australia/Victoria. However, someone else may know more about these legalities. The legality is not that important to me as it already registered on the road and no one created fuss so far.

Anyway, I would of course like to have a set of indicators. I do believe it is safer driving these days. I don't want some idiot crashing into me, thinking I am always going straight... seeing me drying my nailpolish. I do have the wiring for indicators ready to go (well doing the loom this Sunday).

As to the front and the question of parking lights... Being Dutch I had no idea what the term "parking lights" actually referred to so I Googled this...
"Parking lights, also called running lights, are automotive lamps designed to increase the visibility of a car in a variety of situations. Although most nations no longer require the use of parking lights, they can be extremely useful. Almost all cars are fitted with parking lights, although they are often linked with the headlights. Formerly, parking lights were run on a different electrical system, and were intended for use when cars were parked along narrow, poorly lit roads, to alert oncoming drivers to the presence of the parked car. In some regions of the world, parking lights still serve this function."

I guess with front parking lights you refer to the side lamps, on the wings. Well, I intend to use these as indicators. Thus indicators on the wings and low and highbeam headlights. I thought for the front that would be enough,... or???

My question is more about the rear lighting and indicators. Just to be clear... my Land Rover has:
-Front headlights with of course low and high beam.
-Front sidelights (parking lights to be used as indicators).
-Rear pork pies with twin filament bulb (light, brakes).

I am considering adding another bulb inside the pork pie housing. Seems possible? Anyone tried or did this?

The pork pie has of course a red glass with on the side a clear glass opening in order to light any license plate underneath. I thought maybe directing this clear part to the side with an extra amber bulb. But... would like to hear some feedback on the idea.

Yes I can adjust the wiring etc so that the brake light has the double function of indicator. But again, with todays drivers I would prefer to have the rear light, brake and indicator working seperate (light and brake through twin filament bulb).

In addition I have wiring and an extra period switch ready for the use of Hazard Lights. I think these things are just important. One of the previous links to the Series Once Club forum has a nice story about it:
"Its a long story but I had to have them .

(When at dusk a southbound car crossed the central reservation ( no barriers then) of the M90 south of Perth in 1982. It missed us in the northbound lane by inches and ended up careering along on its roof in the fast lane behind us.By the time it stopped All its lights were out. ... We stopped on the hard shoulder but had no way of indicating our presence on the almost empty motorway to approaching vehicles or of hinting that there was an obstruction on the carriageway in the dark. Two northbound vehicles crashed into the wreckage at more than 50 mph. Others swerved around the mess, missing us by inches. It was very nasty. Only by turning the Land Rover on the carriageway verge to allow its lights to shine back up the carriageway could oncoming vehicles see the silhouette of the broken and crashed vehicles and further concertina collisions were averted. We received praise from the Police who attended the scene for our lighting efforts. We never want to be unnoticed or invisible in that type of situation again. )

I fitted a simple on/ off push pull 'bridging' switch on the top of the steering column bracket. This connects left side and right side indicators together when the indicator switch is operated. The flash impulse then goes to all four lights.

and no, I have not burnt out a heavy duty flasher relay by misusing the system in this way yet ! "

Anyway, the question is not should I... but how could I...???

Thanks,

Kris

[slug_burner]

The clear on the pork pies as you say only does out to the side to light the number plate, I don't think it will work too well to use an amber led and relly on the clear. You will only get a flashing yellow at night time via the clear.

There is a chap here username "Taz" who placed some nice little amber lights under the front bumper bar and I think the rear crossmember. Probably no more than 3/4" in diametre, unobtrusive yet serve the purpose of a blinker/flasher/indicator. I am sure that if he is about or 260AC both appear to be series one buffs that could give you a few pointers. I'll see if 260AC is happy to come along on the weekend and discuss this while you are doing your loom.

[digger]

re the fronts, send a PM to ian (BACKIN) he has done a beaut 109 recently with indicators in front parker lights... he may be able to assist you there..
photos of the vehicle are in this section.


As for the back.... refer to these...

gees i havent been on the Series 1 Enthusiasts sector for a while since i have been camping in the REMLR shed. So bit of an update! the Landy is going well only addition to the LR is an oil cooler for the eng which is soon to be fitted. im enjoying it now, i take it out for a drive every now and then. so much fun to drive compared to my spongy 83 Rangie aka couch on wheels. LoL

a bit of a story and a close call i had a heart stomping moment during the past easter break. I decided to take the Landy out for a drive on the Sunday i had my brother & my 4yr old nephew with me, we were driving along when a car beside us decided to vere / drift towards us i hit the brakes and this car went into my lane the same car did it a few times and we could see the driver was looking for a street / house, but driving with her head turned and would veer off the road couldnt keep it straight, unbelievable! thankfully an accident was avoided. i only had just got my Landy on the Road!

anyways here's some pics of my Landy throught the year. to start off with a before and after!

also, my Landy is going to be published in the "Land Rover Owner International" Magazine.
in the readers vehicles section. I will inform you all when it is published.

cheers. Chris:cool:

BEFORE 2006
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/548.jpg

AFTER 2010
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/549.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/550.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/551.jpg

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https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/553.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/554.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/555.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/556.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/557.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/558.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/559.jpg

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https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/561.jpg




see the small brackets made and under the rear "handles"? they hold the small (I assume LED) lights installed as blinkers.

would light up well, no panel damage to original, and in fact if you chose well you could find very sympathetic blinkers..some wouldnt know they didnt belong that way!

The whole thread for Chris's car is in this section, well worth a browse but I reckon youve been there, yes?

good luck, keep us posted with photos!
digger

[Timj]

Isn't one of the problems that if the car didn't have them originally then you don't need them but if you do put them on they have to comply with ADRs?

I think that is why the one above has large lights in one picture and small ones in another if I remember the post correctly. That might make it illegal to use the front park lights as indicators since they would not be big enough or the right colour to comply with ADRs.

TimJ.

[digger]

Isn't one of the problems that if the car didn't have them originally then you don't need them but if you do put them on they have to comply with ADRs?

I think that is why the one above has large lights in one picture and small ones in another if I remember the post correctly. That might make it illegal to use the front park lights as indicators since they would not be big enough or the right colour to comply with ADRs.

TimJ.

as said earlier - check out BACKIN's thread, his is fully registered after inspection (on historic plate but full inspectiion) he used leds in front lights I believe yellow leds used.

[back_in]

Hi All
Thanks Digger for the praise
The fronts are a twin mini globe in a twin socket
available through Tony Pearson (Classic Globes)
cars before 1960 something had white front indicator lamps
the other element is the parking light.
the rear ones must be orange, nothing will work through a red lens and show orange.
You can not show a white light at the rear of a vehicle, must be orange.
The rear is a orange classic type also from the above
it mounts flat, only 2 mounting holes and a small hole and grommet for the wire.
He also has period reflectors, look the same as the original as used on L/R
cheers
Ian

[101RRS]

When my series 1 gets back on the road it will have front parkers flashers and at the rear it will have the flashers operating through the brake lights (so flashing red) in the pork pies as it was originally built - the same as the OP was asking about in the first post.

Garry

[back_in]

Hi Garry
good idea
love to see you convince Mr Plod when the red lights flash and the brake lights come on full, flashing light would be hard to see.
Road laws such as they are, rear flashers have be orange.
Well in South Aust, that is the rules. As you know we have Australian wide road rules (joke).
I would check with your Reg dept, to make sure you can, be bummer to have it defected down the road.
cheers
Ian

[Scouse]

love to see you convince Mr Plod when the red lights flash and the brake lights come on full, flashing light would be hard to see.
It's legal in NSW at least for cars of a certain age. I'm not sure of when the cut off is but before that date, cars can have either amber or red indicators (like some older Holdens - FC for example).
Converting to flashing brake lights is a fairly common mod to some trafficator equipped cars.

[101RRS]

Hi Garry
good idea
love to see you convince Mr Plod when the red lights flash and the brake lights come on full, flashing light would be hard to see.
Road laws such as they are, rear flashers have be orange.
Well in South Aust, that is the rules. As you know we have Australian wide road rules (joke).
I would check with your Reg dept, to make sure you can, be bummer to have it defected down the road.
cheers
Ian

The flashing light overrides the brake light on the side being flashed. These are original equipment and standard on my model in 1957 and as ADRs are not retrospective are perfectly legal, as are not having seatbelts, windscreen washers etc.

The ADRs are not retrospective in SA so will be legal there too.

Garry

[digger]

I may be incorrect but I believe brake/tail lights used as indicators have always been outlawed in SA.

I recal mid 80's a friends imported vehicle (yank tank) had flashing rear red lights and had to have exterior amber lights fitted to be registered.

As you say this may be an SA thing only but I cannot recall any SA vehicle with red tail lights etc as indicators.

(SA vehicles also had to have some type of rear reflector if I recall correctly)

as said this is just my belief Im open to correction!

cheers
digger

[back_in]

Hi All
Garry may be right
As the Hist.Reg for my Club, I have to go as i been told
in saying that i have seen flashing rear red lights on L.H. drive Yank Tanks
If changed to Right Hand drive they have to comply etc etc.
I think it is or could be a can of worms.
cheers
Ian

[Hebe]

When I went to the registration process (Vic roads) last year I understood that.... if you make any changes to the originality of the vehicle (such as replaced engine) you will have to comply with all current requirements when (re-)registering. This would include seatbelts, lights, and who knows what else.

I was thus told that I would not need seatbelts for my original Series 1 of 1958, but that this excemption is for adult passengers only. Children below 12 always need seatbelts, even in a classic fully original.

I may be wrong or misinformed.

But again guys, the topic is not the legality. It is the how to...?

[ellard]

Hi there

I might have to ask the question as I am not to sure:


I was thus told that I would not need seatbelts for my original Series 1 of 1958, but that this excemption is for adult passengers only. Children below 12 always need seatbelts

This might be some thing for Digger to put his work hat on - as havent heard this one. I have just been back through the Historical Rego book given to you by Motor Registration in SA (No Comment on the above)

Can any one help, as I love taking the kids for a drive, the wife and the kids use it most nights to exercise the horses.

Wayne

[bobslandies]

When I went to the registration process (Vic roads) last year I understood that.... if you make any changes to the originality of the vehicle (such as replaced engine) you will have to comply with all current requirements when (re-)registering. This would include seatbelts, lights, and who knows what else.

This is more intended for larger than original capacity engine replacement and has applied for years.

I was thus told that I would not need seatbelts for my original Series 1 of 1958, but that this excemption is for adult passengers only. Children below 12 always need seatbelts, even in a classic fully original.
This may be the case in Victoria

I may be wrong or misinformed.
But again guys, the topic is not the legality. It is the how to...?

There are now National Road Rules since June 2010 that make it an offence to CARRY a child under the age of seven years in ANY motor vehicle without complying with those new rules - and there are no exceptions other than buses that carry over twelve passengers.
See here:
Child restraints (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/children/childrestraints/index.html)
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/children/childrestraints/childrestraintlaws_faqs.html)

Effectively this means that it is an offence to carry a child under the age of seven years without them being restrained in an approved restraining and protective device.

Ian is correct in observing American vehicles that are still Left Hand Drive have red flashing indicators. There is a NSW full registration late model Mustang with a band of sequential flashing red lights across the back in our suburb.

But this still does not alter the safety issues of driving on the road. Just because you can get away without fitting obvious flashers (or seat belts) does not mean it is a good idea with those on the road that would not understand hand signals, period trafficators or even red flashers incorporated as original.

Much better to fit some suitable period looking amber flashers on brackets off the outer rear tub attachment bolts and the front bumper. That way if someone else runs into your pride and joy you will not have an argument from them that they did not see your intentions. If it is a serious accident you would not want to jeopardise other older vehicles if some coroner makes a recommendation that all old vehicles be removed from our roads because they are a danger to other road users.

Not to mention that your Series vehicle may be a little slower than other impatient road users who also manage to run into other modern vehicles and trucks with hectares of lights.

Bob

[digger]

What the Law says in SA (FOR THE SHORT VERSION, SKIP TO BOLD OR COLOURED BITS!)
New laws for child restraints
Following a decision by the Australian Transport Council, Transport Ministers from around Australia have agreed to amend the Australian Road Rules to introduce a mandatory size-appropriate restraint system for all children travelling in motor vehicles up to the age of seven years.

The new laws come into effect 1 July 2010 and penalties will apply from 1 October 2010. This delay is intended to provide parents and carers with sufficient time to purchase (or arrange to hire) the restraints they need, or to make necessary modifications to their vehicle to accommodate the restraints.

Passengers over 16 years
Under the Australian Road Rules, passengers over 16 years must occupy a seat fitted with a seat belt if such a seat is available. The seat belt must be worn, and the responsibility for wearing it rests with both the driver and the passenger.
In addition, drivers must wear a seat belt if one is fitted to the driver’s seat. The seat belts must be worn properly adjusted and fastened.

Remember - A properly adjusted seat belt passes over the pelvis and hips, does not touch the wearer’s head or neck and is adjusted so that the buckle is at or below the hip. Make sure it is securely fastened. Seat belts are designed primarily for adults, but they also offer some protection for children.Passengers under 16 years
At present, the law deals separately with children under one year old and those between one and 16 years.

Passengers under one year old must be restrained in a suitable, approved child restraint that is properly adjusted and fastened.
Passengers aged one year and over, but under 16 years, must occupy a seat fitted with a seat belt or suitable child restraint, if such a seat is available. The seat belt or child restraint must be worn properly adjusted and fastened in all motor vehicles.

Under this rule, a seat is classified as 'available' if it is not occupied by another person under the age of 16 years.

The responsibility for children under 16 years using restraints correctly rests with the driver.

Restrictions on where passengers can sit for vehicles without enough seatbelts
Passengers must not sit in the front row of seats in vehicles with more than one row of seats where seatbelts are not fitted, or there are not enough seatbelts. If the other seats are full, passengers aged 16 years or more can sit in the front row. Passengers aged less than 16 years may only sit in the front row if wearing a seatbelt that is properly adjusted.

Exceptions to wearing seatbelts
Seatbelts do not have to be worn by people if their doctor has written a letter stating that the person doesn't have to wear a seatbelt on the ground of physical disability or any medical ground. The person must have the letter with her or him, or a seatbelt must be worn.
Exemptions
Bus drivers
Bus drivers will continue to be exempt from ensuring passengers under 16 years of age are restrained.

Under the Australian Road Rules, a bus is defined as a motor vehicle designed to carry over 12 adults (including the driver). If a vehicle is designed to carry 12 adults or less (including the driver) it is not a bus and the driver is not exempt from ensuring all passengers are appropriately restrained.

Other exemptions
•Motorbikes (HA HA HA :D)

•A person for whom a certificate signed by a medical practitioner is produced by the driver of the vehicle.*

•A person for whom a certificate of exemption issued by the Minister for Transport is produced by the driver of the vehicle.*

•A person travelling in a historic vehicle that is registered and driven in accordance with the conditions of registration.

•A person in a vehicle where there are insufficient seatbelts for all occupants, priority must be given to children under 16 years of age.

* These exemptions do not apply if the certificate is not produced on request by the driver of the vehicle.

Road Safety : Seatbelts & child restraints (http://www.dtei.sa.gov.au/roadsafety/Safer_behaviours/seatbelts)


So hopefully at least that one is clear, the way I understand it, no exemption for 0 - 1year, MUST BE restrained in correct capsule etc etc..

But go ahead Wayne, you and Mel can continue taking the kids and keep feeding the horses!

Digger

(sorry for the thread hijack! :o This info maybe should be promulgated into its own sticky thread, state by state laws etc (only if those laws are confirmed of course))

[ellard]

Hi there all

Thanks Digger - so the Short and curlies are:


exemptions



A person travelling in a historic vehicle that is registered and driven in accordance with the conditions of registration

All is good

Wayne

[digger]

WAYNE,
GOOD FOR US AS ABOVE APPLIES TO S.A. REG VEHICLES ,
BUT OTHERS USE CAUTION - NOT SURE HOW IT APPLIES IN OTHER STATES.

LOOKING AT LINKS FROM BOB APPEARS NSW IS A "NO"

[numpty]

My understanding of the Qld laws these days, is that if you carry any child under the age of 12, the vehicle must be fitted with the correct restraint. Obviously similar to NSW.

My S1 doesn't have seat belts and wont be fitted with them until such time as the prospective Grandad (me) has grandkids to contend with. Which BTW is not any time soon. And we all know, kids love to travel around in an old Land Rover.

[101RRS]

My understanding of the child restraint laws is that they Australia wide with all states having signed up to the proposal.

Anyway - this has little to do with indicators fitted to landies back in the mid 50s.

Garry

[digger]

My understanding of the child restraint laws is that they Australia wide with all states having signed up to the proposal.

Anyway - this has little to do with indicators fitted to landies back in the mid 50s.

Garry

Garry all states may have signed up but then as with all ARRs they seem to add their own 'tweaks' I have quoted from the SA Dept Transport Energy and Infrastructure website is SA so I will stand by that advice.

and yes you are correct we havent got back to the flashing tail lights have we? Back on that....I cannot find anything in black and white but all references to indicators I have located refer to "amber" so I assume is a no go. (in SA)

[101RRS]

Though what you have quoted for SA rukes on child restraint does seem to be the same as the other states.

On the issue of indicators again I don't think SA is any different to the other states back in the 50s. If I recall correctly it was either the Holden Special FC or FE had indicators but these were in the parkers on the front and in the tail lights at the rear.

When the requirements for white/orange indicators came in for the front and orange for the rears I don't believe old Holdens were required to have their indicators changed in any state.

To Hebe's original question - I would obtain the S1 parts that made the globes in the pork pies flash. The links I put up earlier have the original gear and what people have done to make it all work using more modern equipment - the answers are there.

Garry

[bobslandies]

Hebe also brought up the issue of seat belts.

Here is what the apparent status is in New South Wales in relation to children under seven -

Note:

If no seatbelts are fitted to the vehicle it is an offence to carry children under seven years of age in the vehicle.
It is legal to carry a child aged 7-16yrs in a vehicle that does not require seatbelts to be fitted.

Fitting aftermarket seat belts to an historic vehicle not manufactured with seatbelt mounts would allow children under seven to travel in historic vehicles but would make the vehicle ineligible for NSW HCRS and it would have to be engineer certified for full NSW rego.

FOR THE FUTURE:

Since this new regulation has been adopted in principle, and to the letter, from the Australian Road Rules by all states, the NSW RTA cannot/will not give an exemption for historic vehicles. It is a national initiative and must be negotiated at a national level by the AHMF if we are to seek and gain an exemption for historic vehicles without seatbelt mounts as original equipment. Obviously historic vehicles with seatbelt mounts must comply with the regulation.

From: CONDITIONAL REGISTRATION (http://www.goldenoldiestruckclub.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=39&layout=blog&Itemid=57)


And back to what I said earlier about the blinkers -

"But this still does not alter the safety issues of driving on the road. Just because you can get away without fitting obvious flashers (or seat belts) does not mean it is a good idea with those on the road that would not understand hand signals (that are still legal by the way), period trafficators or even red flashers incorporated as original.

Much better to fit some suitable period looking amber flashers on brackets off the outer rear tub attachment bolts and the front bumper. That way if someone else runs into your pride and joy you will not have an argument from them that they did not see your intentions. If it is a serious accident you would not want to jeopardise other older vehicles if some coroner makes a recommendation that all old vehicles be removed from our roads because they are a danger to other road users.

Not to mention that your Series vehicle may be a little slower than other impatient road users who also manage to run into other modern vehicles and trucks with hectares of lights."

Period accessories and replacements are acceptable (at least in NSW) for Conditional Registration. In SA fitting indicators could not be seen as modifying a historic vehicle "from its original design to any significant extent".
In Queensland "If a Special Interest vehicle does not have permanent lighting, the operator must carry a removable lighting system with the vehicle at all times and use that system whenever lighting would normally be required."

If you want to mix it with others on the road you need to be VERY visible. As for LEDs they may not comply with relevant ADRs and many being sold do not even comply for use on trailers.

Bob

[back_in]

Hi All
This has to stop.......

there is only 10 people in the Eastern states that would know what a flashing red light was.
If you want the other 17,000,000 Clowns that drive cars in Australia thinking they know everything, with the object of killing themselves and other Clowns who do not know the road rules, please do not join them by having a car that they do not know what a red flashing light means, because the Clowns do not know what it is, please teach them right from bloody wrong, by not having one, before they kill you, because it may be help to reduce the carnage on our roads.
It has not been mentioned by Digger, even though he has fallen over trying to tell you, in as many words, digger is one of our finest.
Please listen to those who are trying to help you.
Do not cut your nose off to spite your face, I am of a age were I am sick of going to funerals of people that know more than me.
so ended the lesson for this Sunday the 24th of Oct 2010.
cheers
Ian

[101RRS]

Thankyou for your view.

I see that you have not changed the tone of your posts. Clowns - well enough said.

I understand perfectly well what Digger is saying, he makes a very good point and I certainly respect his point of view.

[isuzutoo-eh]

there is only 10 people in the Eastern states that would know what a flashing red light was.
SNIP
cheers
Ian

How very presumptuous of you:mad: You hold us Eastern staters in such high regard. I'm glad not all Southern staters are like you.
Whilst I agree that you should make your vehicle as visible as possible, a flashing light in about the right spot to be an indicator, is semantically an indicator. Its not rocket science. I don't suppose you've ever seen a car with a broken or missing indicator lense and still worked out that that blinking light near the edge of the car is, wait for it, an indicator.

[digger]

30227

OK people, lets all cool off a bit and
get back to the topic of series 1's!
(something we all love!)
As to indicators - is there a usual indicator switch?
ie: magnatex? or switch on steering centre?

I am assuming something like magnatex for older s1's as
they are aftermarket. Are there many others and what
would they have looked like?

[groucho]

Hella made a few. I had one of these on my 80"




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/368.jpg

[groucho]

A few series ones i have wrecked had this type mounted in various locations



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/357.jpg

[digger]

A few series ones i have wrecked had this type mounted in various locations



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/357.jpg

on the top of the horn arm on my series 1 there is a series of holes so I am assuming that someone, at some stage, added a top plate to the horn arm. I though think that a switch such as this off the end of the horn arm would work although proabably in danger of being broken easily, and am unsure how authentic looking it would be.

[groucho]

and am unsure how authentic looking it would be.
Probably wouldn't look authentic at all seeing as early series didn't come fitted with indicators They had semaphore things and were fitted with a toggle switch on the dash or windscreen....

[chazza]

I have been looking through the catalogue from this business

Car Builder Solutions Ltd. Kit car parts. Spares and accessories for the car builder enthusiast. (http://carbuildersolutions.co.uk/cbs_products_index.htm)

They have a "period" type indicator switch, which might be suitable. For me the solution of where to put it on an 80" is the biggest hurdle,

Cheers Charlie

[digger]

and am unsure how authentic looking it would be.
Probably wouldn't look authentic at all seeing as early series didn't come fitted with indicators They had semaphore things and were fitted with a toggle switch on the dash or windscreen....

You are correct but when they were fitted how authentic to that can I get it?...

For my 56 I have a set of brand new never used 12v trafficators (the semaphores that light up) and have I think worked out how to fit them and indicators at the same time (trafficators DO NOT go through flasher unit as require constant power to hold them up! so power to them and then off through flasher unit to indicators)

I like the other indicator arm BUT it would have to be cocked off the wrong side of the steering column for my liking! :)

Thanks

[digger]

I have been looking through the catalogue from this business

Car Builder Solutions Ltd. Kit car parts. Spares and accessories for the car builder enthusiast. (http://carbuildersolutions.co.uk/cbs_products_index.htm)

They have a "period" type indicator switch, which might be suitable. For me the solution of where to put it on an 80" is the biggest hurdle,

Cheers Charlie



Charlie I dont think there is anywhere on an 80 that it will look OK so I have a simple solution for you..

Ill hook a trailer up and start headed your way, You put that pesky 80 (and all the bits) in the front yard and Ill get rid of the pesky thing for you!! :twisted:




(on page 37 of that catalogue is some flexible fuel hose that is probably the best solution I have seen to the left hand fuel tank filer problem we have with the series 2/2a ex mils!... lots of good stuff!)

[groucho]

cocked off the wrong side of the steering column for my liking!


Try driving a series 3 then jump in a Defender or a Discovery
They are on opposite sides you get wipers going when you want to turn
the pasenger thinks you are a noob

[groucho]

Lucas part No for the trafficator switch would be 31379A
Now for authentic type switch one of these would be around the mark



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/365.jpg

[groucho]

Lucas SD 84 -A30 -A35 semaphore switch is the period type for series



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/358.jpg

[101RRS]

A few series ones i have wrecked had this type mounted in various locations



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/357.jpg

That is what I have in my SW to operate the inlight flashers.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/100_08831.jpg

[digger]

Garry
was that a factory plate for the s/wgns? Looks like it was the high low beam switch as some stage?..


Groucho,
I assume that is a dash mount switch?

[101RRS]

Yes that plate is original - the indicator switch is as shown (dunno why they did it that way as steering column aftermarket switches were available then.

I haven't traced the wiring from it as yet but I believe that somewhere that it was changed for some other purpose - the marking pen does indicate Hi/Lo but the foot operated switch is still there.

[groucho]

without changing originality?
As to the start of the thread
While you are panelbeating the arse end of your Land Rover, if you survive,
while having non conforming red flashing rear lights you might re think that like the vast majority of us, it may well have been a smart idea to put amber flashers that are universally recconised around the world for saftey sake
. I see a lot of old restored cars that have been retrofitted with flashers that are not all that obtrusive. I reguard early series (Lucas)lighting systyems to be only marginal at the best. Thats my 2 cents worth including GST....

[bobslandies]

Here is the relevant legislation operable in New South Wales.

Everyone may like to keep a copy of this just in case they need it one day. You certainly can have RED rear indicators or use trafficators but be prepared for arguments. I have reformatted it a bit for easier reading and highlighted some headings.

Schedule 2 Vehicle standards – New South Wales
113 Operation and visibility of direction indicator lights

(1) A direction indicator light fitted to a motor vehicle must:
(a) when operating, display regular flashes of light at a rate of not over 120 flashes a minute, and:
(i) for a motor vehicle with 4 or more wheels—at least 60 flashes a minute, or
(ii) for any other motor vehicle—at least 45 flashes a minute, and
(b) be able to be operated by a person in the normal driving position, and
(c) be wired to an audible or visible device in the vehicle that tells the driver that the direction indicator light is operating, and
(d) flash at the same time and rate as any other direction indicator lights fitted on the same side of the vehicle.

(2) A direction indicator light fitted to a side of a trailer must, when operating, flash at the same time and rate as the direction indicator light or lights fitted to the same side of the motor vehicle towing the trailer.

(3) The flashes of light displayed by a direction indicator light must be:
(a) if the light faces forward—white or yellow, and
(b) if the light faces backwards:
(i) yellow, or
(ii) for a vehicle built before July 1973—yellow or red, and
(c) if the light faces out from the side of the vehicle:
(i) white or yellow towards the front and side, and
(ii) for a vehicle built before July 1973—yellow or red towards the rear and side, and
(iii) for a vehicle built after June 1973—yellow towards the rear and side.

Note. The ADRs only allow yellow direction indicator lights.

(4) If a motor vehicle’s direction indicator lights display only yellow light, the vehicle may be equipped to allow the lights to operate simultaneously on both sides of the vehicle, if a visible or audible signal tells the driver when the lights are operating simultaneously.(covers Hazard Lights)

(5) When on, a direction indicator light must be visible 30 metres from:
(a) if the light faces forwards—the front of the vehicle, or
(b) if the light faces backwards—the rear of the vehicle, or
(c) if the light faces out from the side of the vehicle—that side of the vehicle.

(6) When on, each direction indicator light in at least 1 pair of lights fitted on or towards the front of a prime mover, or a motor vehicle over 7.5 metres long, must be visible at a point:
(a) 1.5 metres at right angles from the side of the vehicle where the light is fitted, and
(b) in line with the rear of the vehicle.

And this covers Trafficators:
130 Turn signals

A turn signal must:
(a) consist of a steady or flashing illuminated yellow sign at least 15 centimetres long and 25 millimetres wide that:
(i) when in operation—is kept horizontal, and
(ii) when not in operation—is kept in a position so it is unlikely that the driver of another vehicle or anyone else would regard it as a signal, and
(b) be fitted to the side of the motor vehicle at least 50 centimetres and not over 2.1 metres above ground level, in a position so the driver of the vehicle, from the normal driving position, can see whether the signal is in operation, and
(c) be able to be operated by the driver from the normal driving position, and
(d) when in operation, be visible from both the front and rear of the vehicle at a distance of 30 metres.

Part 11 Other matters
180 Restored vehicles

For the purposes of this Schedule, a restored vehicle is taken to have been built when it was originally built and not when it was restored.

Source:
Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 2007
Current version for 20 August 2010 to date (accessed 25 October 2010 at 17:32)
Schedule 2

You can read the original here:
NSW Legislation (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/subordleg+522+2007+sch.2+0+N/)


Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Here is the relevant legislation operable in New South Wales.

<snip> ...
And this covers Trafficators:
130 Turn signals

A turn signal must:
(a) consist of a steady or flashing illuminated yellow sign at least 15 centimetres long and 25 millimetres wide that:
(i) when in operation—is kept horizontal, and
(ii) when not in operation—is kept in a position so it is unlikely that the driver of another vehicle or anyone else would regard it as a signal, and
(b) be fitted to the side of the motor vehicle at least 50 centimetres and not over 2.1 metres above ground level, in a position so the driver of the vehicle, from the normal driving position, can see whether the signal is in operation, and
(c) be able to be operated by the driver from the normal driving position, and
(d) when in operation, be visible from both the front and rear of the vehicle at a distance of 30 metres.

...<snip>Bob

Not challenging you, but once again an RTA Road Rule makes little sense.

How is the driver supposed to see the trafficator on the near side of the vehicle without having to manipulate his body out of the normal driving position in say a Rover P3 or a Morris Minor or any number of other vehicles with the trafficator fixed to the middle of the "B" pillar, or a Land Rover 80" with the canvas hood and the trafficator on the "A" pillar above the windscreen top ?

[bobslandies]

Bob
Not challenging you, but once again an RTA Road Rule makes little sense.

How is the driver of say a Rover P3 or a Morris Minor or any number of other vehicles, supposed to see the trafficator fixed to the middle of the "B" pillar , or a Land Rover 80" with the canvas hood and the trafficator on the "A" pillar above the windscreen top, all on the near side of the vehicle, without having to manipulate his body out of the normal driving position?

Yes Diana,

Once again there will always be exceptions because of vehicle design. I imagine that if wing mounted mirrors are fitted it may not be impossible.

In this case there does not seem to be the same legislative requirement for a tell-tale inside light (incorporated in many trafficator switches) as there is with indicators and hazard lights. Possibly later aftermarket trafficator kits were all supplied with a tell-tale light.

Bob

[chazza]

It took me a while to work out that "trafficators" means the semaphore type :p

My brother wired his trafficators on his Mk 5 Jag so that the globe flashed, whilst the semaphore remained steady.

That might suit you Digger - and no you can't have Sixpence!

Cheers Charlie

[digger]

That might suit you Digger - and no you can't have Sixpence!

Cheers Charlie


should I even ask about Penny? :o:twisted::confused:

[Hebe]

Back to original topic....

I guess everyone has its own solution how to place or add indicator lights. I have had extra light bulbs which just fitted in the Pork Pies and that could have worked. However, I considered the following....

I did not want to tamper too much with the Pork Pies, afraid of destroying its originality, or even breaking it.

Testing with a loosely placed extra bulb in it the idea is technically feasible and does work.

Looking at the effects, it visually does not work well. It is difficult to see the indication and probably confusing for the viewer (if noticed).

I also considered wiring the indicators through the break lights as was suggested. However, this seems to me a similar problem when it comes to other road users seeing you.

Since I am planning to use Hebe as my daily drive I really want to make sure I do the utmost not to get her hurt while keeping her original beauty. Thus, I have concluded that the best solution for me is to have additional lights on removable brackets fitted to the bumper. An idea which originates from chris1983rangie his admirable restoration work. Although these are fixed.

Putting them on removable brackets with connectors will ensure I can go back to full originality for those occaisions where Hebe may be used in a period movie or TV series. :)

Off topic,

I think the legality discussion is useful. And the decision to go back to full originality or have added lights/colours fitted is to my idea a personal decision. I can imagine that some may sometimes drive around in a rural environment or for classic / club activities, while others may drive a lot in/on busy cities and roads. Everyone will make his her choice,... but when you do keep your safety and your cars survival in mind. Indeed, there are enough users on the road who run into brightly lit trucks and who knows what else.

Off topic 2,

Great, now I got my Hela indicator switch / stalk identified. I am missing the top light cover of it. (see my other post here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/115917-missing-pieces-missing-action.html))

Off topic 3,

For safety purposes I will also ad a hazard light switch. I have an extra instrument light switch I can use for this so that it still will look period.

Off topic 4,

Another kind of safety. My Hebe having swallowed most of my savings I have also added a car alarm. Spy two way radio signal alarm with added microwave sensor. Now if someone sticks his/her hand through my window my keychain (within 5 km) will start beeping in addition to the car alarm going off. Chinese alarm which I found on eBay. I had it working before.

Off topic 5,

Post your final remarks and lets close this thread. I think for the legality issues it would be great if someone starts a new thread that discusses these things for all states. Please keep in mind that we got LR owners in all states and thus your statement/post should clearly indicate which state this refers to.

Thanks guys.....

[bobslandies]

Kris,

Having a legal resource compilation is a good idea. The general consensus with re registering old vehicles for full road use is that they must conform to any legislation relevant at the time of their manufacture. For Historic or Special Interest registration they should not deviate too much from original manufacturers specifications (there are some exceptions in different States). ADRs refer to post 1973 vehicles primarily (the Second Edition ADRs: Second Edition Australian Design Rules (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/second_edition_adrs.aspx)) yet even these supposedly "National" regulations like the Australian Road Rules have been fiddled with and added to in different States and there are exemptions.

The only problem in a forum is that people start posting in it and it goes off topic and becomes a jumble. If there was resource area that could be easily found and only contained the factual information that would be even better.

Your decisions are also the best outcome. Hebe stays as close to original as you can make it, you and your family are safer by fitting indicators (and a hazard light switch) that are pretty universally recognised - and you can remove them when necessary.

Bob

[digger]

Agreed, the indicators and lighting question keeps popping up so may be worth a sticky? Or a sticky that relates to legalities managed by one of the mods? (submissions to them, then added if worthy?) i MAY STRIP THIS THREAD FOR SOME OF THE SUBMISSIONS ALREADY!..


If nothing else, it shows that we are all passionate (<- SP?) about land rovers!

cheers
Digger

[bobslandies]

A sticky Wiki?

Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Kris

It is a real problem, the most common opt out for veteran, vintage and classic vehicle owners is to fit motorcycle type lamps on stalks so you don't have to modify the vehicle (or drill extra holes).

When I purchased a new wiring loom for my 80" I had them install the flasher wiring. On the rear I planned the motorcycle stalks fitted to an angle bracket which picked up either the bolts on the outside of the rear handles or maybe the pair of bolts on the tab holding the body to the chassis.

On the front, the plan is to make a bracket out of 1" RHS that picks up the bolts holding the bumper to the chassis and extend the motorcycle stalks out in the gap between the front of the mudguard and the rear edge of the bumper bar.

Must get back to finishing that 80", just needs a body paint! :(

[digger]

theres no mention of an 80" in your sig???

Photos???

digger