Premium unleaded?

[Scallops]

Folks - is it OK to use premium unleaded in my engine (2.0 litre spread bore)?

[isuzurover]

Folks - is it OK to use premium unleaded in my engine (2.0 litre spread bore)?

You can use premium unleaded in any engine that can run on ULP. However unless you have hardened valve seats you will need to add upper cylinder lubricant with either PULP or ULP.

Don't expect to see improved power or fuel economy - as the 2.0 is quite low compression.

[Scallops]

Thanks, Ben. Does using premium necessitate the use of the additive, or would you suggest that too if I were to use regular unleaded?

[isuzurover]

Thanks, Ben. Does using premium necessitate the use of the additive, or would you suggest that too if I were to use regular unleaded?

AFAIK the 2.0 does not have hardened valve seats. So you should always use an additive such as valvemaster.

However - if not rebuilt, the engine should have a "lead memory" for ~25000 km or so after it was last run on leaded petrol.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Premium unleaded is the only petrol guaranteed not to be mixed with ethanol, so if you are using NOS SU fuel pump diaphragms or Solex accelerator pump diaphragms or even a length of old fuel hose which contain latex, then premium unleaded is the ONLY fuel you should be using.

A friend in Canberra have to rebuild his 1948 Land Rover fuel system 3 times in 6 months because of failure of latex containing components, until he became aware the ULP is allowed to have up to 10% ethanol without informing the customer.

[isuzurover]

Premium unleaded is the only petrol guaranteed not to be mixed with ethanol, so if you are using NOS SU fuel pump diaphragms or Solex accelerator pump diaphragms or even a length of old fuel hose which contain latex, then premium unleaded is the ONLY fuel you should be using.

A friend in Canberra have to rebuild his 1948 Land Rover fuel system 3 times in 6 months because of failure of latex containing components, until he became aware the ULP is allowed to have up to 10% ethanol without informing the customer.

Diesel can also have 10% bio.

I am sure the refineries will tell you whether they blend ethanol in or not. All fuel sold in Brisbane would come from either the BP or Caltex refineries.

[Scallops]

Premium unleaded is the only petrol guaranteed not to be mixed with ethanol, so if you are using NOS SU fuel pump diaphragms or Solex accelerator pump diaphragms or even a length of old fuel hose which contain latex, then premium unleaded is the ONLY fuel you should be using.

A friend in Canberra have to rebuild his 1948 Land Rover fuel system 3 times in 6 months because of failure of latex containing components, until he became aware the ULP is allowed to have up to 10% ethanol without informing the customer.

She's all original - including the Solex Carb. Thank you both - glad I filled it with Premium then! :D Do you recommend additives too - it's just I have read they are not perhaps necessary? :angel:

[Blknight.aus]

IT'll run on anything you put in it that remotely resembles petrol.

its an old school engine mate not like the ford hell you could pull the head, shave it and fit high top pistons to get the compression up so that you can take advantage of the better quality fuels. that would require re-spacing the thermostat cover to the water pump which would probably mean the water pump needs to come o........

no, on second thoughts lets keep it simple.

yep premium unleaded will be fine remembering that all petrols go off so try to keep the tank near empty adding a liter or 2 of fresh fuel every time you want to take it for its weekly 15Km maintenance drive. you don't have to use the additives with every tank but I'd suggest that every 3rd tankfull OR every time you were going to take it on a long drive particularly during summer that you do add an additive. Remember like 2 strokes dont over do the additive if the bottle says it treats up to 100l dont use the whole bottle in 40l worth of fuel.

[Scallops]

Thanks Dave - great info.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

For a cheap upper cylinder lubricant use diesel! About 1/2 cup or less in a tank of petrol.

[chazza]

AFAIK the 2.0 does not have hardened valve seats. So you should always use an additive such as valvemaster.



I would be very surprised if the 2L does not have hardened seats as the 1.6L does.

Check your workshop manual Scallops, it should tell you in there under the engine section/ replacing valve seats,

Cheers Charlie

[Scallops]

I would be very surprised if the 2L does not have hardened seats as the 1.6L does.

Check your workshop manual Scallops, it should tell you in there under the engine section/ replacing valve seats,

Cheers Charlie

Thanks Charles! :D I will. But adding diesel sounds like the go - pillaging from darned Puma - gotta be GOLD. :D

PS - can't find anything in the manual, can you? But if adding diesel to premium unleaded can't hurt - I'll do that.

PS - What do the (other) gurus think - are my valve seats likely to be hardened?

[Aaron IIA]

Adding diesel will bring the octane rating down, and can actually improve power output and fuel efficiency in a low compression engine.

Aaron.

[Scallops]

Adding diesel will bring the octane rating down, and can actually improve power output and fuel efficiency in a low compression engine.

Aaron.

Alright - half a cup of Grove fuel to be transferred into Matilda. Thanks for the help - everyone.

[Aaron IIA]

No matter what fuel you are using, always tune the engine to run on that specific fuel. Advance the timing until in knocks at full throttle, low revs top gear, and then retard it a degree or two.

Aaron.

[JDNSW]

All IOE Rover engines have hardened steel valve seats as far as I know. They do not however have a need or use for high octane fuel.

The problems with alcohol in the fuel may suggest that you need to use high octane unleaded, but I'm afraid that this will be only a short term solution as sooner or later alcohol will probably be mandated in all petrol.

John

[mildred]

For a cheap upper cylinder lubricant use diesel! About 1/2 cup or less in a tank of petrol.
II have been adding 1 jam jar full of diesel to a tank of fuel on my series one for the last 26 years.

I was advised to by an old mechanic many years ago, he said that it keeps every thing oily up-top. I did it mainly because rover engines were well known for experiencing valve seat recession and I wanted to be sure of overcoming this trite!
to a tankttt :D

[series1buff]

I would be very surprised if the 2L does not have hardened seats as the 1.6L does.


Cheers Charlie

I agree , all of these S1 motors came with hardened exh. seats from the factory - a standard fitting . Remember they were intended for use in a wide range of situations where fuel quality varied wildly e.g., Africa and Asia and god knows where. They will run happily on Power kero I would think.. after a warm up on petrol .

MIKE

[Blknight.aus]

The addative is not so much for the valve seats as it is for the valve stem, the biggest killer is running them too lean, Be careful adding the diesel as this can give you a false setup on the mixture. Get a good setup on clean fuel and then add the diesel but dont mess with the engine settings untill you've got another clean run of fuel in the tank and carby.

Also diesel will fraction out of petrol over time if you don't give it a stir up. As the diesel is heavier than the fuel it will sit in the bottom of the carby and the tank and make for some slightly interesting starting, bare this in mind if you have some intermittent starting troubles while you're running the diesel in the petrol.

[chris1983rangie]

hi all,

A good topic on fuel! Just a thought on all this unleaded and lead replacement stuff. What if i was to grab a couple of Lead Sinkers from my fishing tackle box and drop them in the fuel tank? is it now Leaded Fuel...?
what do you think? would this possibly work?

cheers,

Chris:cool:

[isuzurover]

hi all,

A good topic on fuel! Just a thought on all this unleaded and lead replacement stuff. What if i was to grab a couple of Lead Sinkers from my fishing tackle box and drop them in the fuel tank? is it now Leaded Fuel...?
what do you think? would this possibly work?

cheers,

Chris:cool:

Sorry Chris, no dice. Leaded fuel uses Tetraethyl Lead (TEL) - which is an "organic" lead molecule. Elemental lead (Pb) is another kettle of fish, and will not dissolve in fuel.

Btw - lead is a pollutant - there are other options.

Lead replacement petrol (LRP) when available used a phosphorous compound to do the same job (sold commercially as "valvemaster").

There is also an organic Manganese compound (MMT) which does the same job, and is used in competing lead replacement additives.

[chris1983rangie]

thanks for the info mate!

cheers Chris

[123rover50]

Some servo,s insist their unleaded has no ethanol. Is there a simple test to determine that before it rots our diaphrams?.

[isuzurover]

Some servo,s insist their unleaded has no ethanol. Is there a simple test to determine that before it rots our diaphrams?.

Not really - HOWEVER - 99% of fuel sold in QLD comes from either the Caltex Lytton refinery or the BP Bulwer Island refinery. If you contact the refinery (or BP /Caltex technical), they can tell you if they add ethanol or not.

They can also tell you who sells their fuel - e.g. shell, mobil and woolies have "product sharing" arrangements with caltex and BP.

[rick130]

Premium unleaded is the only petrol guaranteed not to be mixed with ethanol,
[snip]


Unfortunately some of the minor brands 95 octane fuel also contains ethanol (can't recall which ones ATM)

Best to stick to the majors, as Ben said the big four's come out of a couple of refineries in each state.

[solmanic]

I have a Fuelstar fitted to the Alfa. This is a fine, tin particulate cannister that is plumbed in-line and releases tin particles into the fuel as it passes through. This is supposed to do the lubrication job lead used to. The vibration of the engine agitates the canister releasing the tin particles.

I also run only BP Ultimate as it was the only fuel I could verify as having no ethanol content. It is only 98RON but I have been told that it is better to run a lower octane rated, pure mineral fuel than a higher (100RON) ethanol blended fuel in my engine.

BTW, I note that Fuelstar has managed to get a rather dodgy reputation (like Hiclone), but I think this stems from their claims that it is a fuel-saving device. For use in a classic car engine fuel saving is not its primary purpose so I can't comment on that.

[solmanic]

Not really - HOWEVER - 99% of fuel sold in QLD comes from either the Caltex Lytton refinery or the BP Bulwer Island refinery. If you contact the refinery (or BP /Caltex technical), they can tell you if they add ethanol or not.

They can also tell you who sells their fuel - e.g. shell, mobil and woolies have "product sharing" arrangements with caltex and BP.

Correct! I ALWAYS ask the servo where their fuel comes from when filling up the Alfa if I am using one I don't know.

[101RRS]

In NSW/ACT and maybe elsewhere, BP have not sold standard unleaded for about 12 months - it is E10.

Eleswhere in NSW standard unleaded will be dropped in favour of E10 in Jul 2011.

Garry

[mildred]

I have a Fuelstar fitted to the Alfa. This is a fine, tin particulate cannister that is plumbed in-line and releases tin particles into the fuel as it passes through. This is supposed to do the lubrication job lead used to. The vibration of the engine agitates the canister releasing the tin particles.

I also run only BP Ultimate as it was the only fuel I could verify as having no ethanol content. It is only 98RON but I have been told that it is better to run a lower octane rated, pure mineral fuel than a higher (100RON) ethanol blended fuel in my engine.

BTW, I note that Fuelstar has managed to get a rather dodgy reputation (like Hiclone), but I think this stems from their claims that it is a fuel-saving device. For use in a classic car engine fuel saving is not its primary purpose so I can't comment on that.
II had a fuel-star fitted by the dealer when I bought the vehicle ( TD5 ) new.
My dealer advised this course of action, because they said that it made the common fuel rail last longer.
Its 10 yrs old now and I have just had the fuel rail replaced, weather the fuel-star made it last longer is hard to tell.
I also have one fitted to my series one 1952 vehicle as a lead replacement device to stop valve seat recession.
One of the addition benefits of the fuel-star is that it leaves the combustion area very clean and no build up of carbon, so no de-coking needed yet. It has been fitted for 18 yrs.

[101RRS]

Isn't Fuelstar one of the products banned about 6 months ago from sale due to unsubstantiated or false claims of performance.

[solmanic]

Isn't Fuelstar one of the products banned about 6 months ago from sale due to unsubstantiated or false claims of performance.

Could be. Like I said, they seem to have copped a bagging because of their claims of improved economy but that has nothing to do with their original intended use which is as a lead replacement fuel additive alternative. Maybe their marketing boffins decided to chase the volume consumer market by making these claims and now they have been crucified for it.

If they no longer exist then surely someone is making an alternative. The logic behind using tin as a lubrication additive in unleaded fuel makes sense. I was told that when "super" fuel was introduced they originally tried to use tin but couldn't find any way of suspending the particles in the fuel so opted for lead. The tin cannister gets around this problem by releasing the particles into the fuel as it passes through. It's pretty low-tech but surely at least that aspect of the Fuelstar's performance was easy to verify.

[mildred]

Isn't Fuelstar one of the products banned about 6 months ago from sale due to unsubstantiated or false claims of performance.
II have not heard about that Garry?
My fuelstar's have been fitted for years.
The use of tin used to create a cushion for valves is a well know and proven science, used in the second world war. It was developed to use the very low octane Russian fuel for use in the allied tanks etc.
After the war, improvements in fuel refining led to the use of lead and the tin method was abandoned. then of course with leaded fuel being phased out the fuel-star device came back into its own.
That is all I know about fuel-star, the technology does work, but I never heard of it helping with economy? :eek:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It would be pretty easy to check. Accurately weigh the tin canister, force about 10,000 litres fresh unleaded fuel through the canister and see if the canister still weighs the same. If it does, then the clams are false.

[101RRS]

Fuelstar as a brand has not yet been banned but similar products have been such as Fitch.

However has been proven not to work
Fuelstar device no fuel saver, says Commissioner | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fuelstar-device-no-fuel-saver-says-commissioner/story-e6frg13u-1225833748935)

Another fuel scam hits WA - ABC Perth - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2010/02/23/2828141.htm'site=perth)

[mildred]

I did not buy this device many years ago as a fuel saving or an emissions saving device.

The technology is very simple and does what is claimed, the tin leaches off the pellets and provides a cushioning effect to protect valve seat recession in lieu of lead introduced into the fuel.

That is all is does and with my vehicles that it is fitted to, has been a success.

I dont care what some commission in Perth says ,

I have the ongoing proof in my cars and that to me , is all that matters.
Fuelstar as a brand has not yet been banned but similar products have been such as Fitch.

However has been proven not to work
Fuelstar device no fuel saver, says Commissioner | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/fuelstar-device-no-fuel-saver-says-commissioner/story-e6frg13u-1225833748935)

Another fuel scam hits WA - ABC Perth - Australian Broadcasting Corporation (http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2010/02/23/2828141.htm'site=perth)

[mildred]

Do you have access to unlimited fuel for testing.
If u do then my shed is yours, lets get this test in motion .
Has any testing like the one that you advocate ever been done.
Seems like truthful test and that would be the proof in the pudding ?
tin or not to tin, that is the question to suffer the slings and arrows of misfortune or drive a landie with a fuel-cat is your fate...
It would be pretty easy to check. Accurately weigh the tin canister, force about 10,000 litres fresh unleaded fuel through the canister and see if the canister still weighs the same. If it does, then the clams are false...at

[isuzurover]

Correct! I ALWAYS ask the servo where their fuel comes from when filling up the Alfa if I am using one I don't know.

I would imagine your alfa has an alloy head, and therefore by definition has hardened valve seats. So it doesn't need lead (or snake oil).

What form is the tin? If it is elemental tin then the device likely has no effect on VSR.

[bee utey]

I would imagine your alfa has an alloy head, and therefore by definition has hardened valve seats.

Ergh. Lotsa alloy head engines have soft(ish) seats. Datsun L16-L28 engines, Toyota 2RZ-FE, Nissan KA24E to just name a few...

I know a bloke in Sydney runs his 6 cyl P76 for 10 years on unleaded and fuelstar, hasn't burnt a valve yet, so he believes it works. Not that I believe its a particularly good idea, I'd rather have the head done properly if needed.

[isuzurover]

Ergh. Lotsa alloy head engines have soft(ish) seats. Datsun L16-L28 engines, Toyota 2RZ-FE, Nissan KA24E to just name a few...

I know a bloke in Sydney runs his 6 cyl P76 for 10 years on unleaded and fuelstar, hasn't burnt a valve yet, so he believes it works. Not that I believe its a particularly good idea, I'd rather have the head done properly if needed.

I bet they are still significantly harder than cast iron.

A sample size of 1 doesn't prove much. I was working with refinery R&D engineers/chemists when LRP was being formulated. They showed me a bunch of research which showed that it takes up to 25000 miles (US research) for significant VSR to occur once engines are switched over from leaded to unleaded. They were really surprised at how long the "lead memory" lasts.

How far has the P76 owner driven in 10 years?

[bee utey]

I bet they are still significantly harder than cast iron.

A sample size of 1 doesn't prove much. I was working with refinery R&D engineers/chemists when LRP was being formulated. They showed me a bunch of research which showed that it takes up to 25000 miles (US research) for significant VSR to occur once engines are switched over from leaded to unleaded. They were really surprised at how long the "lead memory" lasts.

How far has the P76 owner driven in 10 years?

Don't know much about the P76 just threw that in as a talking point. As far as the L series engines are concerned they recess valves much faster than Holden red motors on gas. I have seen the L series valve inserts and they are quite soft, like brass. I don't disagree with your posts other than on the degree of hardness which is quite variable. Mitsubishi 6G72 3.0 V6 engines are another, Mitsubishi had to make valve seats harder from about 1993 so the fleet buyers would still buy them for use on gas.

[dennisS1]

Just a comment for any one interested, I have run my S1s on ordinary unleaded (always brand name not safway crap) with 1ml of valvesaver to the litre (about) ever since good petrol was taken from the market, no problems yet.
It is true that they do not get used every day but a 12 hour non stop drive happens every now an than.
Remember the engine was designed to run on very low grade fuel not shell ultra something.
Dennis

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
Remember the engine was designed to run on very low grade fuel not shell ultra something.
DennisUnleaded or even E10 should be fine if you have excluded latex containing items first. Particularly pump diaphragms.

The three places latex (natural rubber)occurs: is the diaphragm in the SU fuel pump; the accelerator pump on the Solex carby; and the fuel hose in between. So the rule is no NOS items from 10 or more years ago, when buying replacements check they are latex free or ethanol safe.

[scarry]

On another note,way off topic Series 1:o

In the early to mid 90's,we used fuelstar canister's on all our Mitsy work vans on LPG.They all had the 4G63 engine.None ever had an engine problem.Whether the vans actually needed them,i don't know.

The other recomendation was to use valvesaver drip feed system,but they were a PITA to continually top up,where the fuelstar has no maintenance once fitted

[Lotz-A-Landies]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][SIZE=3]Do you have access to unlimited fuel for testing.
<snip>I was merely suggesting that is what the people investigating the claims of the product will/would do the check the validity of the claims.

I would neither do the testing nor buy the product. Diesel is cheaper.