Just "Defender" or bad quality?

[nugge t]

Since purchasing my Defender, I have had what to me are pretty serious driveline clunking noises when changing gears. Have tried all sorts of soft and hard clutch operation but nothing seems to work. Most commonly the clunk comes from the rear but 10% of the time it is the front.

Dropped it back to the dealer, waited the compulsory 2 hours, watched the truck going in and out of the service shed 5 times and then was told..."all normal. That is how defenders come."

I half expected this but am worried that if I am getting this at 2,000kms, what is going to happen at 40,000kms when I am in a remote area.

They did fix the day light I could see from the drivers position, on the passenger door seal though. How the small section of foam with double sided tape holds up is yet to be tested but think I will wear thongs on my first water crossing.

I had also noticed weaping on the fuel tank. When I filled up this morning, there was fuel dripping onto the servo driveway as I walked back to my vehicle. I drove a km, stopped and there was a wet spot again so drove another km and another wet spot. I would generally take any wet spot not on sheets as a bad sign.:eek:

Emailed the dealer and to their credit have gotten promtly back asking to get the vehicle back in. Having had a previous bad Land Rover experience 10 years ago, this is starting to sound a little too familiar but hope I am wrong.

I also asked them to advise that if the the clunking is "accpetable Defender tolerance", what exactly is the tolerance. Their reply is that it has been noted and they will monitor. Can anyone tell me where the line is drawn between "acceptable" and poor quality?

[Scallops]

Since purchasing my Defender, I have had what to me are pretty serious driveline clunking noises when changing gears. Have tried all sorts of soft and hard clutch operation but nothing seems to work. Most commonly the clunk comes from the rear but 10% of the time it is the front.

Dropped it back to the dealer, waited the compulsory 2 hours, watched the truck going in and out of the service shed 5 times and then was told..."all normal. That is how defenders come."

I half expected this but am worried that if I am getting this at 2,000kms, what is going to happen at 40,000kms when I am in a remote area.

They did fix the day light I could see from the drivers position, on the passenger door seal though. How the small section of foam with double sided tape holds up is yet to be tested but think I will wear thongs on my first water crossing.

I had also noticed weaping on the fuel tank. When I filled up this morning, there was fuel dripping onto the servo driveway as I walked back to my vehicle. I drove a km, stopped and there was a wet spot again so drove another km and another wet spot. I would generally take any wet spot not on sheets as a bad sign.:eek:

Emailed the dealer and to their credit have gotten promtly back asking to get the vehicle back in. Having had a previous bad Land Rover experience 10 years ago, this is starting to sound a little too familiar but hope I am wrong.

I also asked them to advise that if the the clunking is "accpetable Defender tolerance", what exactly is the tolerance. Their reply is that it has been noted and they will monitor. Can anyone tell me where the line is drawn between "acceptable" and poor quality?

Defender transmission does involve a learning circle to perhaps master smooth changes, but I'd be concerned the noise might be something else.

I suggest you take it into MR automotive in Redcliffe (LR specialist) and have them check your vehicle. They will provide a written report that your dealer will act on. I've had many "that is normal, sir" change to - "we'll order the new part and have it fitted sir", after this exercise.

As for thongs driving river crossings - mate - they all leak - they are designed to so they don't float. If it's deep water - your feet will get wet.

Fuel tank - get this fixed ASAP!

Good luck. :)

[Tikirocker]

I think there is a drive train learning curve ... I was so used to driving our city car that when I first drove my new County - after a few years of not driving a Landy - I got a clunk because I was used to letting the clutch go so early. I noticed that with some mechanical sympathy, if I let the clutch out more slowly there was no more clunking. The truck went through a pre purchase inspection in Qld where it was driven hard for about 20 mins and went through Blue Slip in NSW early this week and nobody ( Mechanics ) made any comments about the drive line.

Bottom line is that I think this is the way they are ... as was my Series IIa.

Simon.

[isuzutoo-eh]

With the clunking, its much the same at 2,000km as 200,000km. Having the transfer case, centre diff, 4 unis, 2 slip joints, 2 more diffs and 8 axle splines, plus the suspension bushes and CVs, all with British tolerances, adds up to a reasonable amount of play. I understand though stand to be corrected that there is actually extra play built into the front transfer case output so the power is directed to the rear diff before the front diff gets power.
Locking the CDL and removing one propshaft will often reduce the clunk.

[Grumbles]

Their reply is that it has been noted and they will monitor.

I too have had this "monitor" thing thrown at me by various dealers. I have learnt though that it is realy a euphamism for "we're not going to do anything" and then when the warranty runs out it becomes 'the vehicle is now out of warranty' and this will cost $$$$$$$'s to fix.

Good luck!!

[KarlB]

I think you need to be very careful nugge_t. While I have not been following the forum well enough to know the details of your vehicle mods, you have certainly made changes that Land Rover Australia (LRA) would not approve of (eg changed the tyre size). Now, while these mods may not be the cause of your transmission problem (assuming you have a transmission problem) and the mods may seem to you (and others on this forum) to be not unreasonable, that may not be the view of LRA nor your dealer (they will say what the boss tells them to say most of the time).

Several people on the forum have had warranty issue after they have modified new vehicle with LRA denying responsibility. I think Gav has given up, Povman largely returned his vehicle to 'original', and someone who's name I can't recall has just had to provide an engineers report to win his battle. If there really is a transmission problem with your vehicle and LRA wipes their hands of you, those bigger tyres (or what ever) have become very expensive indeed.

I know I am probably over cautious, but I wouldn't want to go into battle against LRA.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[nugge t]

I understand where you are coming from and it is why I advised of the problem in writing before the new tyres were fitted.

Whilst it would not surprise me if they tried, I reckon they would be hard pressed to blame leaking fuel on larger tyres!

[RVR110]

When I picked up my new Puma a few months ago I was absolutely delighted at how smooth the drive train was. There were no clunking noises whatsoever so personally I would not regard it as a "Defender Thing", at least not on a relatively new vehicle like yours. At 8,000 Km the drive line is still smooth. I hope that this gives you an additional data point.

Both of my previous 110s had plenty of backlash and would clunk significantly if you weren't careful with the clutch, but having said that they each had around 300,000Km on the clock. A bit of care would still see the drive line operate failrly smoothly. When I had a LR specialist mechanic inspect the cars they took the view that each element in the drive trail had backlash that was within spec but it just seemed a lot when all those tolerances were added up along the entire drive. I am expecting that the same thing will gradually happen to the puma as it would with any manual vehicle.

[Naks]

Since purchasing my Defender, I have had what to me are pretty serious driveline clunking noises when changing gears. Have tried all sorts of soft and hard clutch operation but nothing seems to work. Most commonly the clunk comes from the rear but 10% of the time it is the front.

Standard Defender issue - but I concur, it is far worse on my brand new Puma (13Kkm) than on my previous Td5 (66Kkm).

My indie mechanic informs me that the rear drive member is already worn and won't last much longer *sigh*

So when it goes in for the first service in Feb, I will tell them to change it.

Also be aware that the propshafts on the Puma do not have grease nipples, so make sure you grease them regularly.

In the meantime, make sure your handbrake adjuster nuts are tightened correctly, and also that the propshaft is not loose on the handbrake drum - you will need a 14 spanner for that one.

If you need the workshop manual, let me know. ;)

[4wheeler]

When I first purchased my 07 Defender I tended to get the "clunk" during gear changes. I am used to Toyota Hilux smooth gear changes.

I did adjust the speed at which I let in the clutch and now rarely get any drive line backlash clunk. I don't have to drag the clutch on engagement, just bring the pedal up progressively.

A friend drove the car part way back from a trip to Licola/Dargo here in Victoria and guess what - "clunk", "clunk" each gear change. I stepped back in to the office seat and no "clunk". I am sure sometimes driving technique is important. Obviously though, some gear boxes/drive lines have given trouble. Mine is stock in tesms of tyres and suspension.

I get lost in the gears in low range at times but this is me, not the vehicle.

I hate the anti-stall in first low. I think it is potentially dangerous on steep slopes with rock ledges when you want to be able to control the descent, not have the vehicle drive harder if you wish to "step" down the rock ledge.

[BilboBoggles]

For the fuel leaking issue - I had that one. The Puma fuel tank is the same as the TD5 but without the lift pump built in, there is a large sealing ring that apparently is quite difficult to fit correctly. Or alternatively it could be a damaged breather hose.

Either way - DON'T drive it on the road. It's potentially lethal to motorbike riders, if they hit the spilt diesel you could be responsible for someone crashing.

Call Land Rover assist and get them to two it back to the dealer to be fixed. I did, and they agreed once I mentioned they could be up for negligent manslaughter if they did not.

My PUMA also clunks worse that the TD5 I also own, at 180,000 the old TD5 is much nicer to drive than the PUMA. I've put this down to a very touchy accelerator response, that makes the vehicle lurch or stutter during acceleration. I reckon it's due to a faulty EGR valve - but as no fault is registered they won't touch it.

[nugge t]

The fuel problem stopped after 2 kms ( I stopped several times on the side of the road to check) and it is booked in on Monday. My guess is a breath pipe problem as it stopped quite quickly.

I have changed driving technique and if I allow revs to drop with slow, slow gear changes and release clutch pedal slowly the clung doesn't happen. The only problem is that forward moment is so restricted I almost end up back where I started .. in fact I am starting to wonder why they put in a 6 speed gear box as I lose so much speed going into 4th that I have to go back to 2nd and then work back upto 4th!!!!!....not quite but you get the idea!

I'll keep working on my technique but didn't realise driving like a geriatric in a coma was part of the deal....I can say that becasue I am an old fart!:D:D

Just to clarify the mods issue, the only change thus far are Mungo seat rails extension on the drivers side and 1" larger tyres.....hardly radical. Suspension and everything else is still as it was straight from the factory....for now.

Having said that, at thsi stage I am planning to keep things pretty stock mechanically if possible. If it doesn't break I'll leave it. My main plan for mods is for bar work, touring and camping aids/setup and significant navigation assitance.

[KarlB]

Doesn't sound right to me. I get an occasional clunck, but I am an old fart. Maybe you need to get one of the 'old' forum hands to have a drive to see what they think.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Didge]

I reckon the fuel leak is likely to be the fuel return line connecting in the middle on top of tank so its the highest point on the tank that can leak. So when you fill the tank to the brim, it's the first place to leak. It's also the only one that's hard to see (if it's pretty much the same as the 300tdi tank)
cheers gerald

[newhue]

I have found mine to be clunky. The dealer suggested it's due to the heavy (as in strong) syncros in the gearbox. However in my short ownership I have been able to adjust the driving style so that the clunks are minimal or pretty quiet.
Certainly pushing the clutch in quickly stirs the drive line up, I think it's all about being smooth. I have been changing in the 2600 to 2900 rev range.

[vnx205]

... .... ... ... ..

I have changed driving technique and if I allow revs to drop with slow, slow gear changes and release clutch pedal slowly the clung doesn't happen. The only problem is that forward moment is so restricted I almost end up back where I started .
... .... ... ...


I tried that technique on mine, but found that I had more success with a different approach.

I still use a slowish gear change and clutch engagement, but I found that it made a bigger difference when changing up if I either gave the throttle a little blip or didn't fully release the accelerator pedal during the gear change.

It seemed that the revs dying right down during the change was adding to the problem. If I kept the revs up very slightly, the clunk was easier to avoid.

I find the problem of getting the revs right as the next gear is engaged is due partly to the fact that my petrol car engine revs up quite a bit with a tiny bit of throttle while the diesel accelerator works more like a governor, so a little bit of throttle only gives a little rise in revs. So the feel is quite different between the two vehicles.

My theory is that a slow change with the revs dropping right back allows all the slack in the transmission and suspension to accumulate in one direction and then when the clutch is re-engaged, everything goes back the other way. Keeping the revs up very slightly either with a tiny bit of accelerator or a blip seems to keep all the slack in the right direction.

I find it much easier to get a clunk free change if I use that technique. Others who are better at getting the revs right might not need to resort to that.

[Bundalene]

Standard Defender issue - but I concur, it is far worse on my brand new Puma (13Kkm) than on my previous Td5 (66Kkm).


Also be aware that the propshafts on the Puma do not have grease nipples, so make sure you grease them regularly.

In the meantime, make sure your handbrake adjuster nuts are tightened correctly, and also that the propshaft is not loose on the handbrake drum - you will need a 14 spanner for that one.

If you need the workshop manual, let me know. ;)


I don't want to Hijack this thread, but ......


The unis on both prop shafts on our Puma are all greasable. This may well have changed.



http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4672/dscn0453m.jpg (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/dscn0453m.jpg/)

Admittably the grease nipples are not in the conventional spot, but right in the center of the cross piece of the uni.

Erich

[trailcutter]

This may shed some light ,,,,,,,,,,,,no issues with my 2010 puma drive train ...........allthough it has "plenty' tolerance,,,,,,,,cheers

Originally Posted by 4runnernomore https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/111736-puma-drivetrain-replacements.html#post1316954)
Hi all,

Seriously been considering a PUMA 110 as my next replacement vehicle however I am very concerned about longevity of the drive train components.

Lots of threads of people having diffs, transfers etc replaced under warranty and not operating correctly (i.e. noisy) right from the moment they pick them up.

The transfer case issue seems to be solved by the fact the front prop shaft needs a double cardon joint on it even from factory as it binds especially after lifting it.

What is the issue with the noisy diffs?

Is it bearings, incorrect backlash, ring and pinions not meshing? It never seems to elaborate what the noisy diff is apart that it was replaced under warranty.

There are a few saying that the PUMA is the best vehicle ever and others having gone through the warranty windmill to come out the other side with now it is as it should have been from the factory. Are these people concerned that it will start all over again or are they still happy now their PUMA I what it should have been out of the factory.

Can anyone shed some light?

Cheers, Chris
CHRIS.......
this is a commercial box IMO.....i .drove roadtrains/ trailers may years ago for tnt so i know a g-box ,,,it cannot be rushed nor can the clutch ,i suspect some of the tranny /d/train probs are due to operator error,,,,it takes a focused foot to get a silky smooth engadgement -dis engadgement of the clutch,,,,,failure to do this will shockload the drivetrain ......due to low 1st gear its a busy box with plenty of shuffling ,therfore plenty of ops for abuse ......the g-box i find is not unlike a 18 speed roadranger and on some occasions i find my self double shuffling,old habits die hard

i,ve only done 4000k in my new puma wagon ,,,,,,but have many many hrs up in rugged and very rugged terrain ,,,,,,,, spent in the low box,,,,, at the extreme end of suspension / drivetrain / articulation and have had no issues with the vehicle whatsoeva,,,,,,,,,but it has also become plainly apparent to me that the truck like nature of drivetrain /gbox will only accept very positve input from the driver and any lazyness with selection or clutch use will be rewarded with crunching and shockloads ....be aware some of the shockloads are very suttle and imo opinion will not be noticed by many or even thought of as normal,,,,,where a trained ear will pick it up,,,,to get a silky smooth clutch operation requires definite focus ,but the rewards are long drivetrain-clutch life.......

the puma is an awsome machine and its a testimony to it that those that have had major issues with theres have soldiered on and sorted them.

i believe there is nothing else out there in the market that offers such a capable machine,,,for the asking price.

[cucinadio]

Mate we had a GU pootrol for a few years 2.8D man.. to tell you the truth if we didn't know we were talking about a defender.. id swear you were talking about the GU ....same issues when i first drove it and took it back several times and same response "whats the problem?"... after a while i got used to the fact that it was a truck and coming from a Honda Integra to the GU was an experience in its self ....and to top it we lived in the thick of it on chevron Island on the gold coast and it was our only means of transport!!..lol.. needless to say it lasted three years before the wife finally gave up and said it had to go .!!!, mine you i didn't really mind , because it was a complete pos and was happy to move on to the disco!!....guess its not quite the same but the point I'm trying to make is that in the end its a truck and will take some getting used to , as i said in all the above if i didn't know better would be describing the GU ....and trust me my little bro's Gq would be in the same catagory but i know what id rather be driving ...:D

[spudboy]

Some of it is down to the driver. I am used to it and can go clunk-free for ages, whereas Mrs Spud can mash the gears and get clunks out of it I never knew existed.

Re being delicate with changes and having it slow down too much between 4th and 5th etc, you will get on better if you drive it like you stole it. Be positive and direct.

Another thing might be to drive someone else's Puma and see if it feels the same to you, or do as Scallops suggests and get an independent LR place to look it over.

[Scallops]

...... I am used to it and can go clunk-free for ages, whereas Mrs Spud can mash the gears and get clunks out of it I never knew existed......

:D Same same - Kat Woman always assures me that there were no clunky shifts, no grated gears - when she drives Grove by herself. Funny thing is, I must put her off her game, cos if I'm in the vehicle and she drives, it's carnage. :D :eek:

A Defender demands to be driven with Zen. ;)

[david_07puma]

I've had several mechanical faults with my 07 defender that have all contributed to difficult/sloppy gear changes. I owned a TD5 for comparison which made it easier to separate the chassis/driveline play from the actual mechanical failures. I wasn't left wondering if it was just me because I could compare!
I know it can be hard to differentiate the normal lash from one of these failures online, especially as everyone says landrover clutches are heavy etc, but generally the clutch should have good 'feel' - you should be able to tell through your foot what is going on - its actually a 'quality' of defenders that you pretty much can feel what the wheels and drivetrain are doing.

So, if you've lost clutch feel in an 07 Defender, and it feel like its slipping or there a lot of sloppiness in the drive train unless you finess it, and that wasn't there before, checkout 1) or 3) below. 2) seems to be related, in that if you've had 1 and 3 you'll probably get 2, from what I can tell, but they aren't causing each other - it seems to be a batch issue so I'm mentioning it:

1) the springs in the clutch pressure pack fail, maybe a few times if yours was really early and teh replacement pre-dated the new part.

There is a newer design/specification, so when yours fails after about 20,000 ask them for the new one. There is a service bulletin.

When they are on their way out, put the car in neutral, foot off clutch and start the engine/stop the engine and listen for a clunking. Its not an engine mount, its your clutch!

It may also feel like your clutch is slipping a little when you release it when driving normally).

2) if your transfer case is leaking, it may not be just the seals on an 07 Defender. It seems that front shaft bearings fail, or become prematurely worn/eccentric on some (mine did at least, 2x , but reading around it seems to be common) and the answer if yours is doing it seems to be a new front drive shaft and bearings.

Don't let them just keep replacing the seals over and over again - they are failing every 2000kms for a reason!

3) the clutch box is a frequent failure item on 07 Defenders. You'll lose clutch feel and the clutch pressure will actually drop (usually, but it may increase) and although it is usually driveable, you will notice the difference. It will just seem hard to judge the take up - it will be softer and very sensitive. It seems to be an issue of loose tolerance. Once upon a time this was a common defender problem, but it seems the TD5s lost it, or at least I don't hear about it much. 07s on the other hand!!

I hope this helps a little?

I think we can live with some leaks (diffs? sump gaskets?) but everything above really makes it a hard car to live with and I think you should persevere with the dealer. Its not meant to behave that way. If you've had 1 and 2, you probabaly aren't enjoying driving very much, especially since not many people will believe you.

You are not alone

[sooly]

Hey nugge_t,
I've got the diesel leak aswell but only intermittent. dealer says one way valve in breather has failed? not sure, any way as always with my Puma the part is in the UK. I also have the noisy drive train and found the clunk disappears somewhat if gears are changed at around 3000 rpm. As for the rear diff whine, I was told its the crown and pinion angle was incorrect. mine used to whine over 70ks an hour when you eased off the accelerator.The other problems Ive had in 6 months are as follows:

accelerator flat spot
engine manifold leak
handrake oil seal leak
rear diff replaced
high pressure fuel pump and injectors replaced
rust in rear panel - being monitored
faulty instrument panel glass
handbrake drum machined
cracked roof join
faulty headlight ring
leaking front hub seals

There's more I just can't remember but I think I'm atleast getting my moneys worth out of the warranty. I love defenders, this is my first one which I waited half my life to get. But to have this many issues with a new vehicle at 55k I'd have to say bad quality. I have 2.5 years of warranty left I only hope that what ever else is going to fail will do it within that time. I thought I would have this car for the next 20 years??? I hope it proves me wrong
Cheers Sooly

[nugge t]

Hey nugge_t,
I've got the diesel leak aswell but only intermittent. dealer says one way valve in breather has failed? not sure, any way as always with my Puma the part is in the UK. I also have the noisy drive train and found the clunk disappears somewhat if gears are changed at around 3000 rpm. As for the rear diff whine, I was told its the crown and pinion angle was incorrect. mine used to whine over 70ks an hour when you eased off the accelerator.The other problems Ive had in 6 months are as follows:

accelerator flat spot
engine manifold leak
handrake oil seal leak
rear diff replaced
high pressure fuel pump and injectors replaced
rust in rear panel - being monitored
faulty instrument panel glass
handbrake drum machined
cracked roof join
faulty headlight ring
leaking front hub seals

There's more I just can't remember but I think I'm atleast getting my moneys worth out of the warranty. I love defenders, this is my first one which I waited half my life to get. But to have this many issues with a new vehicle at 55k I'd have to say bad quality. I have 2.5 years of warranty left I only hope that what ever else is going to fail will do it within that time. I thought I would have this car for the next 20 years??? I hope it proves me wrong
Cheers Sooly

Mate you are soundling like my worst nightmare....me 10 years ago with my previous Land Rover experience!

I have found that I am not generally getting a clunk if I change at around 2,000 rpm with a slow smooth clutch release. Find it hard to believe that you should have to baby something that is supposed to rugged and reliable, that much though and I really worry about long term reliability as a result.

I am staying very positive. I love the truck.

[nugge t]

I've had several mechanical faults with my 07 defender that have all contributed to difficult/sloppy gear changes. I owned a TD5 for comparison which made it easier to separate the chassis/driveline play from the actual mechanical failures. I wasn't left wondering if it was just me because I could compare!
I know it can be hard to differentiate the normal lash from one of these failures online, especially as everyone says landrover clutches are heavy etc, but generally the clutch should have good 'feel' - you should be able to tell through your foot what is going on - its actually a 'quality' of defenders that you pretty much can feel what the wheels and drivetrain are doing.

So, if you've lost clutch feel in an 07 Defender, and it feel like its slipping or there a lot of sloppiness in the drive train unless you finess it, and that wasn't there before, checkout 1) or 3) below. 2) seems to be related, in that if you've had 1 and 3 you'll probably get 2, from what I can tell, but they aren't causing each other - it seems to be a batch issue so I'm mentioning it:

1) the springs in the clutch pressure pack fail, maybe a few times if yours was really early and teh replacement pre-dated the new part.

There is a newer design/specification, so when yours fails after about 20,000 ask them for the new one. There is a service bulletin.

When they are on their way out, put the car in neutral, foot off clutch and start the engine/stop the engine and listen for a clunking. Its not an engine mount, its your clutch!

It may also feel like your clutch is slipping a little when you release it when driving normally).

2) if your transfer case is leaking, it may not be just the seals on an 07 Defender. It seems that front shaft bearings fail, or become prematurely worn/eccentric on some (mine did at least, 2x , but reading around it seems to be common) and the answer if yours is doing it seems to be a new front drive shaft and bearings.

Don't let them just keep replacing the seals over and over again - they are failing every 2000kms for a reason!

3) the clutch box is a frequent failure item on 07 Defenders. You'll lose clutch feel and the clutch pressure will actually drop (usually, but it may increase) and although it is usually driveable, you will notice the difference. It will just seem hard to judge the take up - it will be softer and very sensitive. It seems to be an issue of loose tolerance. Once upon a time this was a common defender problem, but it seems the TD5s lost it, or at least I don't hear about it much. 07s on the other hand!!

I hope this helps a little?

I think we can live with some leaks (diffs? sump gaskets?) but everything above really makes it a hard car to live with and I think you should persevere with the dealer. Its not meant to behave that way. If you've had 1 and 2, you probabaly aren't enjoying driving very much, especially since not many people will believe you.

You are not alone

I tried 1 and did not get a clunk. Haven't found a leak as per 2 but will keep and eye on it and the clutch operating feels OK.

To me it sounds like it is right at the rear axle.

[Scallops]

1st to 2nd - if box oil not hot, double declutch - no grating and easy change.

An old LR guru once told me that in a Defender / Series gearbox, either double declutch, or at least drop the transmission into neutral on the way to the next gear selection.

I just drive the Defender double declutch all the time.

[one_iota]

My Disco was a real drivetrain clunker...much worse than the Defender.

Whilst on the subject of quality. My Defender in the 27 months of ownership has spent a total of 6 days in "dry dock" undergoing warranty work. This mostly at the time of the prescribed services....not too bad really given the experiences of some people. Not once have I been stranded.

My Disco however, at the same age and mileage as the Defender, blew a head gasket leaving me with out a vehicle for a month and fixed at my expense....the 300Tdi timing belt issue was also fixed at my expense not Land Rover's.

I think that maybe some LR owners forget that the Defender and most of its bits were designed at a time when warranty periods were 12 months not the current 3 years. To this can be added the archaic assembly method....the thing that makes the Defender the charming and frustrating anachronism that it is.

[weeds]

1st to 2nd - if box oil not hot, double declutch - no grating and easy change.

An old LR guru once told me that in a Defender / Series gearbox, either double declutch, or at least drop the transmission into neutral on the way to the next gear selection.

I just drive the Defender double declutch all the time.

dan...i hope you are practicing changing gears without a using the clutch.......double declutching every gear change your master cylinder will wear out even quicker than they do with normal driving

[Scallops]

dan...i hope you are practicing changing gears without a using the clutch.......double declutching every gear change your master cylinder will wear out even quicker than they do with normal driving

Interesting - I had asked various persons (mechanics) if DD clutching is kosher, and all have said yes, keep doing so, that it would cause no damage or excess wear and tear - in fact, they seem to suggest quite the contrary - that it's better for the transmission. However, lately I have only been doing so shifting from 1st to 2nd and especially when the gearbox is not up to normal operating temperature.

Maybe I'll stick to this practice - it only really needs this procedure for the first change up. :)

[isuzurover]

Interesting - I had asked various persons (mechanics) if DD clutching is kosher, and all have said yes, keep doing so, that it would cause no damage or excess wear and tear - in fact, they seem to suggest quite the contrary - that it's better for the transmission. However, lately I have only been doing so shifting from 1st to 2nd and especially when the gearbox is not up to normal operating temperature.

Maybe I'll stick to this practice - it only really needs this procedure for the first change up. :)

Weeds is being alarmist. A new clutch master cylinder is ~$50 and you can replace it with a stainless sleeved unit (which will last longer) for not much more.

It is pretty bad that you need to double-clutch the new super dooper 6-speed, however doing so will make the synchros (at minimum) last longer.

Although I have had plenty of practice changing gears without a clutch, the odd crunch is inevitable and would probably do more harm than excess clutch use.

[Scallops]

....It is pretty bad that you need to double-clutch the new super dooper 6-speed, however doing so will make the synchros (at minimum) last longer......



It just helps when the gearbox oil is cold. It's either double declutch, or change really, really slowly, or change normally and get a crunch. Once the box is at OT, it's all good. :)

[Loubrey]

I learned to drive in the military (23 years ago) and DD clutching all Land Rovers were the way were taught and I've done so ever since. Not a proper DD clutch, but a throttle blip with a fraction of clutch pedal movement on your way through. My first 90, a '96 bought in '97 did 320000km without master cylinder failure. I must have done at least that again in another 3 no 300Tdi's, again without ever having master cylinder or transmission failure.

I'm firmly clutching (no pun intended!) the wooden table leg as I say this. My Puma 90 is only 6 month old, but not a drop of oil leaked, key fob remote works at 30 paces, no dust ingress on any of the national park routes I've done to date and while the transmission is a little clunky if you drive it like a small hatchback (missus did initially), with a little bit of TLC while driving, it's the smoothest ride I've ever had in a Landie (Not counting D2, D3, D4 or any RR!).

Old saying, your tools will treat you the same way you treat them... Not always true, but I choose to live by it.

Cheers,

[mark2]

Mate we had a GU pootrol for a few years 2.8D man.. to tell you the truth if we didn't know we were talking about a defender.. id swear you were talking about the GU ....same issues when i first drove it and took it back several times and same response "whats the problem?"... after a while i got used to the fact that it was a truck and coming from a Honda Integra to the GU was an experience in its self ....and to top it we lived in the thick of it on chevron Island on the gold coast and it was our only means of transport!!..lol.. needless to say it lasted three years before the wife finally gave up and said it had to go .!!!, mine you i didn't really mind , because it was a complete pos and was happy to move on to the disco!!....guess its not quite the same but the point I'm trying to make is that in the end its a truck and will take some getting used to , as i said in all the above if i didn't know better would be describing the GU ....and trust me my little bro's Gq would be in the same catagory but i know what id rather be driving ...:D

I have had the opposite experience with my GQ 4.2D. Its done 450,000 km, been fitted with an aftermarket turbo from new and mainly been used to tow horse floats and a big caravan. There is still no backlash or slop whatsoever in the drivetrain, and the syncros (including reverse syncro) are fine. I couldnt make it clunk if I tried. There is no gear noise anywhere, except for the low speed rattle in the gearbox which they all seem to have had from new. Even the rear LSD is still tight enough to chirp on tight corners.
When I drive my 110, it always takes a conscious effort to avoid clunks and as for gear noise.....
I would have the GQ gearbox/transfer and diffs in my 110 in a heartbeat; part time 4WD doesnt bother me at all but the landrover low range gearing is a lot better.

[nugge t]

I have had the opposite experience with my GQ 4.2D. Its done 450,000 km, been fitted with an aftermarket turbo from new and mainly been used to tow horse floats and a big caravan. There is still no backlash or slop whatsoever in the drivetrain, and the syncros (including reverse syncro) are fine. I couldnt make it clunk if I tried. There is no gear noise anywhere, except for the low speed rattle in the gearbox which they all seem to have had from new. Even the rear LSD is still tight enough to chirp on tight corners.
When I drive my 110, it always takes a conscious effort to avoid clunks and as for gear noise.....
I would have the GQ gearbox/transfer and diffs in my 110 in a heartbeat; part time 4WD doesnt bother me at all but the landrover low range gearing is a lot better.

I have had 3 Patrols over the years and I never had a gear box or drive train issue, nor did I have to change my driving style I must admit.

[ciapek]

I have had 3 Patrols over the years and I never had a gear box or drive train issue, nor did I have to change my driving style I must admit.

Yep, same here, sorry you just can't pay out on a Patrol driveline........;)

[nugge t]

Just back the beast back after it had a 3 day holiday at the dealers.

Went in for

strange noise when turning on and again when turning off
fix diesel leak which happens when tank filled
Fix surface bodywork rust in the tray
Fix A/C which runs out of cold air after 30mins

They fixed

tank leak but not yet tested
A/C but again not yet tested on longer drive

however in the process the A/C controller knob only works in face setting and has to be replaced. Also it looks liek they took the dash out using screwdrivers and have left numerous dig and scratch marks on the dash.

The noise made when turning on and turning off is deemed to be normal. Also evident in wagons they compared it to on the lot but the crew cab is louder. Apparently if they disconnected the geabox mounts and wedged the gearbox with crow bars it went away!!

This..."compared to other Defenders"...line, which they also used when the driveline slop/noises were evaluated, has now worn very thin with me.

What is the quality control standard. I can not believe that after 60 odds years, land Rover do not have a standard for something as basic as driveline slop.....how about zero?!? Comparing it to other Defenders is a total cop out as they are probably equally as bad. I have now had the truck back to the dealers 3 times in 3 months and facing a 4th in 4 months. Equally as bad is that it is leaving the dealer with as long a "to do" list as it went in.

[inside]

What is the quality control standard. I can not believe that after 60 odds years, land Rover do not have a standard for something as basic as driveline slop.....how about zero?!?
I drove a 130 Tdi once and I could not believe how I could feel, what felt like it, every part of the driveline taking up slack clunk by clunk. My 20 year old 110 makes no such clunks unless I am harsh on the clutch, the driveline is very tight. But then LR had the 110 right 25 years ago.

Good luck with the LR dealer, my experience is that it soon leads to frustration.

[Blknight.aus]

I still refuse to believe that its a requirement to double declutch a brand new gear box, sure as they wear out maybe. But Cmon seriously a new gearbox in a new light vehicle thats fully synchronized you have to have to double declutch?

you dont even have to do that in new trucks and Im not just talking about some small "you can drive it on your car license" truck I'm talking "Yep, she could pull uluru, Wave rock, the devils marbles and probably still have room for a hitcher or 2" Class trucks

Now I know that someone somewhere Is going to call me on the "But you double declutch" But thats mainly from force of habit I drive an old series with a non syncro box and most of the trucks I drive at work are non syncro.

Can you imagine the outcry if having to double declutch was a standard thing on all vehicles?

[nugge t]

I agree 100%..this is a new vhicle. They ahve been making them for 60 years, the Puma has been out for 3 years and the dealer has been a Landrover dealer for at least 10years that I know of and I suspect much longer, and they have to "compare" against other Defenders on the lot everytime you have a problem.

I've heard some BS in my time but that is right out of LR fog off a warranty class 101.

If they had said, Nugget you have 24mm play in your rear, the LR tolerance is 32mm and if it goes outside that tolerance we will replace it, no problem...we all know where the goal posts are.

But to effectively say...well we have compared it to the other Defenders on the lot and even though we don't know if they are good or bad, yours is in the range!

Seriously, if LR and their dealers can not identify something as basic as a driveline tolerance with all of that experience, they should change industries....Yep, I woke up cranky!

On a positive note,I filled up this morning without having to explain to the EPA why diesel was pooling under my car so at least one thing is fixed.

Now for the A/C control switch, marked dash ( looks like they removed it with their Grans false teeth), Strange noise when starting and stopping engine and the rust in the tray.

[chops110]

I'm having the same kind of issues with my 2009 Puma 110. Lots of driveline slop which gets better if you pack the unis with grease. A strange tack-tack noise that seems to be coming from the front drivers side of the gearbox (as best as I can figure after lots of time listening with a big screwdriver) and quite a lot of metal on the transfer case magnet plug. Oh, and I also need to double declutch to avoid crunching second and third in low range.

After all that I still love her!

[Naks]

Also having gearbox issues (big crunch between 2nd & 3rd) which the stealer reckons is normal backlash.

IMHO, what we are seing are the results of the cost-cutting measures when the Puma was designed & built. :mad:

[Fish78]

I have had the opposite experience with my GQ 4.2D. Its done 450,000 km, been fitted with an aftermarket turbo from new and mainly been used to tow horse floats and a big caravan. There is still no backlash or slop whatsoever in the drivetrain, and the syncros (including reverse syncro) are fine. I couldnt make it clunk if I tried. There is no gear noise anywhere, except for the low speed rattle in the gearbox which they all seem to have had from new. Even the rear LSD is still tight enough to chirp on tight corners.
When I drive my 110, it always takes a conscious effort to avoid clunks and as for gear noise.....
I would have the GQ gearbox/transfer and diffs in my 110 in a heartbeat; part time 4WD doesnt bother me at all but the landrover low range gearing is a lot better.


Im not sure it's fair to compare the Nissan GQ with a LR, (former GQ 4.2D owner as well)

Its my understanding that the 4.2D was either designed or built by Nissan UD trucks, with an operating distance of 1 million kms before rebuild.

In the GQ , everything is big and tough, 2 big oil filters, 2 big air filters (if u have the older factory snorkel) 10.5l of engine oil, Huge diffs, the gearbox is/was the toughest Nissan made.

Now im not trying to flame anyone, but its a basic fact that LR isnt know for its quality, traditional British build quality is like Jeremy Clarkson says, lots of 'That'll do' moments from the engineering dept and 'She'll be right' work from the factory.

Truth be told though, if LR's were reliable they probably wouldn't be as popular, its the emotional attachment that makes them so special.

[nugge t]

Not sure I can concur..and whilst I respect your view..LR have had 60 years to get it right and whilst the argument might have been valid in 1950, I reckon that it is not unreasonable in 2010 to expect decent build quality and reliability for your hard earned.

This is my 2nd LR experience and I was hoping it would be a lot better than the first..the jury is still out.

In my honest opinion, for the long term good of the brand, Land rover need their customers to make them accountable, not make excuses for them. Not trying to have a go at you guys but it is just the way I see it.

I love the Defender but do not see why I should have to excuse it for being a Land rover. I didn’t get a discount for poor quality. I am not asking it to do something beyond what it was built and marketed for. On paper it will do what I want to be doing, really well. Now I just need it to do it on the dirt, reliably and then I will be a really happy Land rover camper singing their praise from the most remote location I can find.

[mark2]

Im not sure it's fair to compare the Nissan GQ with a LR, (former GQ 4.2D owner as well)



Truth be told though, if LR's were reliable they probably wouldn't be as popular, its the emotional attachment that makes them so special.

I actually think better reliability would have made Land Rover much more popular and not the quirky niche product it's is. But I do agree with the second part of the above sentence regarding emotional attachment. Surely reliability and character don't have to be mutually exclusive?

[OLR-067]

"This attitude that Land Rover faults are part of the vehilce's character is the very thing that encourages Land Rover to fob it's customers off with substandard build quality.For to long now we, land rover buyers, have had to put up with poor build quality, regular breakdowns on new vehicles and land Rovers premise that the customer is never right.If you bought a new pair of boots that leaked from day one, would you regard that as being part of the character of the boots?"

LRO Magazine, September 1998, p19.

Seems the world never turns for Land Rover.
What a shame......send it to India and let Tata have a crack at it.


Paul

[robbotd5]

G'day Nugget.
I bought my '04 TD5 Disco 5 speed manual new. On the way home from the dealer, it crunched gear changes between 1st and second and from 3rd to second. I took it back to them and they told me that the g/box is new and it will require some running in. Being a fitter/turner by trade and fairly mechanically minded I thought "fair enough" and I gave it a chance, 66480Km later generally, it is a very pleasant box to use. It is still a little notchy when cold but not to the extent where it is a pain. I am still running caltex MTF94 which was the OME recommended oil because I bought 20l of it. When this runs out I will change over to SynTrans. My Disco has a driveline clunk when I back out of my garage, more of a click really, and it only seems to happen here. Maybe it is the change of direction of drive? My experience with LR dealers are that they are ham fisted twits. They stripped the threaded holes on my centrifuge filter housing. Rather than take it back to them, I drilled and tapped them out to 8mm. The bolts on the fuel pressure regulator have their heads rounded....
Like you have said nugget, quality control must be an issue here. I'd take her to a reputable LR specialist, someone who knows and loves Landy's like we do. Get a second opinion on your issues and then take it back to LR. I had the fuel lines chafe through while on hols in the Snowys. There it stayed for 2 months because there were no spares in the country. Turned out to be the "green" banded line had chaffed through spraying a fine mist of fuel. I got the spare (cost $35 for F sake!) and fixed it myself. All fuel lines have now enough insulation on them they will never chafe through again touch wood. Over all like you, I love my Landy and I look foward to every time I drive it because I have fitted so many cool things to it myself such as UHF, JVC head unit & reverse camera, low coolant alarm, TM2 engine watchdog, ect. Hopefully I am well on the way of worming out the known issues as I intend to keep it long term, thats why I bought it new in the first place. So hang in there mate, fix as much as you can yourself, I know that is what a warranty is for but......
PS: And I'm sure we all know how good Patrols are...'nuf said.
Regards
Robbo

[newhue]

Nugget I sympathise with you. I have had my share of issues. And yes these vehicles are not cheap for what you get. Compared to other makes perhaps they should have 6 year warranties to justify the price.
But in saying that don't forget it's not just LR that fail.

The apprentice at work, and the guy who did my canvas both have Mazda BT50's. Both have had new gear boxes, and radiators. One has had fuel lines replaces, the other had had a rear diff.
Another mate has a new Mitsi Challenger and has had a turbo, and manifold replaced. One of my staff, his new Triton has had perishing interior, and I have seen 5 Tritons on tilt tray recently.

I think as frustrating as it is, it's a reflection of cost cutting, and vehicles made to last a period of time, not indefinitely as once were. However they offer warranty do I will be getting LR to look at every thing that fails on my Defer. I take pictures, I keep a log of events, I send emails so I have a record; and will be asking LRA every time to come good on the 60K I gave them for a reliable 4x4 I expected in return.

I think I would prefer a reliable vehicle, and for go the Land Rover quirky reputation.

[nugge t]

Hi Newhue,

I agree 100%. All makes and models have their issues and I understand that but in 30 years of owning 4WD's only twice have I been expected to accept faulty workmanship for the good of the marquee....both Land rovers.

It is how the brand and their dealers handle things when it isn't right that sets them apart. My H3 lost a couple of teeth on the front crown a couple of days before I was due to drive from Brisbane to Melbourne, returning following the Darling River for a 4WD Action article I was to do. There was no argument from Hummer but no part in Aussie so the dealer took a complete diff out of a new car on the lot and swapped it over in a morning to get me going.

Had an oil pump go in an early LS1 V8 ute which required the engine being removed to fix. Happened just as I arrived in Sydney having driven down from Brissie and luckily as I was going past a dealer. Drove in, they immediately said "known problem", we have arranged a hire car at the Avis down the road to which we will give you a lift, see you in 3 days, no charge, sorry for the inconvenience, thank you Sir!

Then I go into LR and they stick a wet finger in the air, throw a few tarot cards on the table, rip a used tea bag open and spread the contents on the desk, have to a listen to a few others on the lot and there by decide that it is the same as them and therefore "normal"! Stone the crows.

To then have the dealer be so ham-fisted is just totally unacceptable. I am not just a whinger looking for faults. My plan is to do all the Len Beadell highways in this truck so I need it to be right. I will be the strongest and loudest supporter, but equally I will be a savage critic if they gin me around.

I accept the design quirks because I could see them, try them and decide whether or not I could live with them, which I obviously have, but you buy a truck expecting, not unreasonably I would argue, for it to be mechanically sound. Time bombs like sloppy driveline etc should not have to be accepted as part of the “Land rover experience”. Sorry guys.

[scarry]

Hi Newhue,

I agree 100%. All makes and models have their issues and I understand that but in 30 years of owning 4WD's only twice have I been expected to accept faulty workmanship for the good of the marquee....both Land rovers.

It is how the brand and their dealers handle things when it isn't right that sets them apart. My H3 lost a couple of teeth on the front crown a couple of days before I was due to drive from Brisbane to Melbourne, returning following the Darling River for a 4WD Action article I was to do. There was no argument from Hummer but no part in Aussie so the dealer took a complete diff out of a new car on the lot and swapped it over in a morning to get me going.

Had an oil pump go in an early LS1 V8 ute which required the engine being removed to fix. Happened just as I arrived in Sydney having driven down from Brissie and luckily as I was going past a dealer. Drove in, they immediately said "known problem", we have arranged a hire car at the Avis down the road to which we will give you a lift, see you in 3 days, no charge, sorry for the inconvenience, thank you Sir!

Then I go into LR and they stick a wet finger in the air, throw a few tarot cards on the table, rip a used tea bag open and spread the contents on the desk, have to a listen to a few others on the lot and there by decide that it is the same as them and therefore "normal"! Stone the crows.

To then have the dealer be so ham-fisted is just totally unacceptable. I am not just a whinger looking for faults. My plan is to do all the Len Beadell highways in this truck so I need it to be right. I will be the strongest and loudest supporter, but equally I will be a savage critic if they gin me around.

I accept the design quirks because I could see them, try them and decide whether or not I could live with them, which I obviously have, but you buy a truck expecting, not unreasonably I would argue, for it to be mechanically sound. Time bombs like sloppy driveline etc should not have to be accepted as part of the “Land rover experience”. Sorry guys.

EXACTLY.....well said

The Puma is definitely pulling the reputation of LR down,you only have to look at the threads on this site,& some are from guys that work at LR.

My son has one,& we are still debating on whether to keep it or move it on,particularly with the issues of the extended warranty possibly not being available.(why would that be?)

I have never had a jap 4x4,but there is a good chance of one arriving in the carport when the D2 needs replacing,which isn't far away.

I have had,over the last 20yrs,a fleet of jap vans.We have never ever replaced a driveline component,apart from a couple of clutches.Never had an engine,g/box,diff,tailshaft repair.These vans were driven by staff,and most carried around 900kg of weight in them all the time,a lot of work was around town.The hiaces we have now weigh in at 2.75T on the scales.

Being work vehicles,these vehicles have to be on the road all day,everyday.
And they are,thats why we use them.

LR's reliability reputation isn't the greatest as we all know,these Puma issues are not helping.
They have ,it seems improved reliability in their other models,which is good to see.:)

[newhue]

nugge t, if you are talking about a Brisbane dealer which I expect you are, than I agree you can do better. Mine showed up on a tilt tray with 1200klm on the clock, not a mention of a replacement vehicle, and I was too dumb to ask. Two weeks later after I was over supporting LR's warranty with my fathers vehicle, mine miraculously was fixed.

It went back to where I bought it from on the Gold Coast, also on a tilt tray with 1500klm on it, but there was a loaner waiting ready to go, and a very different attitude.

I found Brisbane to be exactly as you have experienced, vague and uninterested. They didn't even call me back when I was wanting (not looking) to buy. I had just spent an hour and a half with the salesman, had gone home for an hour and rang back with a general question about tray and style side options and the call was never returned, go figure. I have a good friend who purchased a VWGT from the same dealer's collection of brands and had similar experiences.

On the other hand, I have found GC to be very willing to get to the bottom of issues, apologetic, and knowledge of the Defender excellent. Poor buggers must be embarrassing dealing with Land Rovers some days. They also had to deal with LRA please explain from my comments about the Brisbane dealer. It appears LRA can't get that bit right either.

I do wonder is I have made the wright choice, I really like driving this car, and I think the LR family is great. But on the build quality side of things it does have me concerned about our hopeful lap around this nation. Time will prove if I have made the write choice.

Remember the fist to loose his cool looses, so cool, calm, and uncomfortably honest when dealing with LRA. Hopefully we will all end up with better Defenders in the future.

[nugge t]

Mate it sounds like we are on the same page. I thought long and hard about buying the Defender after having Patrols for years, a Rodeo and the H3, all with plenty of mods but no trouble with any of them that wasn't immediately fixed. In my previous 2 year LR experience I had 3 times more warranty visits than the rest combined so you can imagine I was more than a little cautious.

I also had doubters coming at me from every angle but as my last experience was 10 years ago, I thought I would give them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly haven’t given up on the deal but am far from being filled with warm fuzzies.

Sadly, the jury is still out and I haven't done a decent trip in it yet and it only has 3,000kms on the clock. That first trip is going to be a nervous one I think!

[davidgate]

nugge t, if you are talking about a Brisbane dealer which I expect you are, than I agree you can do better. Mine showed up on a tilt tray with 1200klm on the clock, not a mention of a replacement vehicle, and I was too dumb to ask. Two weeks later after I was over supporting LR's warranty with my fathers vehicle, mine miraculously was fixed.

It went back to where I bought it from on the Gold Coast, also on a tilt tray with 1500klm on it, but there was a loaner waiting ready to go, and a very different attitude.

I found Brisbane to be exactly as you have experienced, vague and uninterested. They didn't even call me back when I was wanting (not looking) to buy. I had just spent an hour and a half with the salesman, had gone home for an hour and rang back with a general question about tray and style side options and the call was never returned, go figure. I have a good friend who purchased a VWGT from the same dealer's collection of brands and had similar experiences.

On the other hand, I have found GC to be very willing to get to the bottom of issues, apologetic, and knowledge of the Defender excellent. Poor buggers must be embarrassing dealing with Land Rovers some days. They also had to deal with LRA please explain from my comments about the Brisbane dealer. It appears LRA can't get that bit right either.

I do wonder is I have made the wright choice, I really like driving this car, and I think the LR family is great. But on the build quality side of things it does have me concerned about our hopeful lap around this nation. Time will prove if I have made the write choice.

Remember the fist to loose his cool looses, so cool, calm, and uncomfortably honest when dealing with LRA. Hopefully we will all end up with better Defenders in the future.

I had a similar experience with the same Brisbane dealer - seemed totally uninterested in selling me a vehicle. I will try Gold Coast or Sunshine Coast.

Dave G :confused:

[wagoo]

I had a similar experience with the same Brisbane dealer - seemed totally uninterested in selling me a vehicle. I will try Gold Coast or Sunshine Coast.

Dave G :confused:

So none of the numerous threads about Defender unreliability have discouraged you then?
Wagoo.

[PAT303]

Lots of people haven't had problems either. Pat

[wagoo]

Lots of people haven't had problems either. Pat

Yeah and lots of people buy a 4wd for duties that a Mini could perform too.
Wagoo.

[davidgate]

So none of the numerous threads about Defender unreliability have discouraged you then?
Wagoo.

I am concerned but nevertheless still have a strong interest. I am buying it for touring not shopping.

In any case, what is the current assessment amongst forum members of the reliability of the current model Defender? I know there is a long history of issues but is the current model any improvement?

Regards

Dave G :)

[PBob]

I probably shouldn't be speaking here, as at this stage (22,000km) about all I have wrong is a loose door handle on the passengers side. Ok, a small water leak above a door and a clunk when changing gears, but thats it. These will be addressed (hopefully) by the Sydney dealer when it goes down soon.
I think that you have to take into consideration the issues that aren't discussed on this site regarding the "alternative" vehicles. Nissan have had horrendous engine issues, Toyota, ever so reliable in the past have Landcruiser problems - and from what we hear, are dreadful to deal with on warranty problems. I had an HSE D3 TDV6 and at 100,000 kms, the dealer reckoned my gearbox was faulty and LRA changed it without hesitation. I must say that frustration and anger come to the surface (and rightly so) after spending hard earned money on a new vehicle. My theory is, it is only as good as the service provided by the dealer; many are three quarters motherless and couldn't care and also do not have the knowledge to perform or even understand what is going on.:mad: The saddest thing about Landrover is that there are not enough centres about to be able to take your pick. No competition means no service and also means travelling to get what you want. If I get the same service that I had before from the Sydney dealer, then I am happy. My experience with a country dealer was not good to say the least - and I bought my D3 from him - possibly the dearest car he sold that year. Told fibs and just didn't do what he said he would and he was the boss of the place!

[nugge t]

Whilst fitting my Ex-Box..see members rides thread...I found a couple of things which just show LR's lack of attention to detail and quality control.

The central locking wire come through the back of the box under the drivers seat in to the cavity which holds relays, fuse box and the ABS box. The grommet around the wires thus sealing the hole from water, was on the outside of the box....not part way out but all the way out...would have maybe worked as a float, but sure as hell not as a seal.

The I found this...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/230.jpg

Any wire passing over a metal edge is going to cause grief at some point so I'll do what LR should have done and cover it in corrugated tube. The wire was actually quite tight across 2 metal edges..LR probably thought it was a good way to save a zip tie!!!!

I haven't had a major problem..I have some concerns especially about driveline but there jsut seem to be a miriad of loose ends. Some one once told me that the best way to get a good Land rover was to buy a new one, strip it down and then re-build it to the correct tolerances...he is starting to sound like a genius:cool: Off to Autobarn to get some corrugated tube!

[PAT303]

A tip,don't ever use corrugated tube ever.Use soft hose only and cable tie it everywhere,mores better and seal it with heat shrink at each end. Pat

[nugge t]

A tip,don't ever use corrugated tube ever.Use soft hose only and cable tie it everywhere,mores better and seal it with heat shrink at each end. Pat


Appreciate the tip but sometimes you don't have a free end to work with, without taking the truck half apart. In this case I am not so concerned about water or dust, but the wire rubbing against the chassis and wearing thru.

If you are wanting to sealit, I would agree 100% and I use heat shrink all of the time. Buy the gear from am electrical wholesaler as opposed to auto shops as the quality difference is amazing. The electrical w/saler gear is much thicker and shrinks down further giving better flexibilty if you have to go over a fitting.

[PAT303]

It's not sealing it's the corrugated tube thats the problem.Because it's split lengthways it fills with dirt and combined with the uneven tube surface it causes the wires to rub through. Pat

[PAT303]

Yeah and lots of people buy a 4wd for duties that a Mini could perform too.
Wagoo.

We can't all be hero's mate;). Pat

[nugge t]

It's not sealing it's the corrugated tube thats the problem.Because it's split lengthways it fills with dirt and combined with the uneven tube surface it causes the wires to rub through. Pat

Have not had that happen to me in the past but I'll see what I can do..anything is going to be better than what LR have dished up. Cheers

[newhue]

I am concerned but nevertheless still have a strong interest. I am buying it for touring not shopping.

In any case, what is the current assessment amongst forum members of the reliability of the current model Defender? I know there is a long history of issues but is the current model any improvement?

Regards

Dave G :)

Well Dave that is hard to answer. I am happy with mine at the moment but it is also running well. It has had one significant and several minor problems all fixed by warranty, but also all a inconvenience for work vehicle, or any vehicle for that matter.

I ran a similar question to yours past a salesman regarding Defender reliability and comments on forums. He passed it off as you only get the people having problems on the forums. All the happy users don't bother with forums because they are off enjoying their cars. Some truth to it I guess, but I think buying a car is really luck of the draw. As you are aware many people have issues no matter what brand or model they choose.
Cars are disposable assets these days. Dealers (some) have no interest in service or making you feel special about your disposable asset. It's just a transaction in a modern world, which market size keeps producing new cliental. Warranty is 3 years because most people on average turn over the vehicle then. Give it another 3 to 6 years and the cars ready for scrap.

I hope to drive this car for 20+ years, somehow I don't think government legislation will let me.

I think if you like the vehicle and it meets your needs, buy it, and just hope you have a reasonable car with minimal issues.

[wagoo]

We can't all be hero's mate;). Pat
What with pi$$weak diffs, halfshafts and cvs made from chocolate, sus engine/trans etc, plus a body constructed from cooking foil, one wouldn't need to be much of a hero to kill a current Defender in the environment they were supposedly designed for.
Yes, some of the other iconic brands are having problem too, but i'm willing to bet that the fleet purchasing departments of the large mining and construction companies and other organisations that depend on vehicle reliability to get the job done would be extremely reluctant to consider Defenders,even on a free trial basis.
Take your Rover blinkers off Pat, you know better.
wagoo.

[nugge t]

Before you blokes take the gloves off......:D

Pat you might want to send LR a copy of your suggestion re corrugated tube....They obviously should be giving themselves an uppercut...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/90.jpg

The lines have connectors in them so tomorrow I am taking the corrugated tube off and replacing it with heater hose with heat shrink ends as well as covering the section which started it!

[scarry]

Before you blokes take the gloves off......:D

Pat you might want to send LR a copy of your suggestion re corrugated tube....They obviously should be giving themselves an uppercut...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/90.jpg

The lines have connectors in them so tomorrow I am taking the corrugated tube off and replacing it with heater hose with heat shrink ends as well as covering the section which started it!

Have you had a look at the way the wiring is draped across the brake booster thingy,under the bonnet and the way it is also draped over the rear axel to the rear wheels,maybe ABS wiring?
Tried to get the air filter out yet?,& it goes on & on.
Disgraceful,to say the least:(

[nugge t]

Tidied up the ABS wiring today. Decided to do a 50-50. I left the original cover so that LRA couldn't claim what I had done caused a problem, but enclosed the offending section in some heater hose and sealed it with heat shrink. Waiting for some push in zip tie holders and then I will use hte original fixing points. The joiner is under the red heat shrink.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/12.jpg

[PAT303]

What with pi$$weak diffs, halfshafts and cvs made from chocolate, sus engine/trans etc, plus a body constructed from cooking foil, one wouldn't need to be much of a hero to kill a current Defender in the environment they were supposedly designed for.
Yes, some of the other iconic brands are having problem too, but i'm willing to bet that the fleet purchasing departments of the large mining and construction companies and other organisations that depend on vehicle reliability to get the job done would be extremely reluctant to consider Defenders,even on a free trial basis.
Take your Rover blinkers off Pat, you know better.
wagoo.

Wagoo,if you don't like Tdi's,Td5's or Puma's there's no need to constantly remind us of it.Yes they aren't as good,we all know that and we all want Sals rear ends and the TDV6 engine but they don't have them so thats it.I also like wearing my Rover blinkers because in the last 13 years I've had four Rovers and five Tojo's and the Rovers are winning four-one. Pat

[PAT303]

Nugget,take my advice or not it's not my vehicle.I'm telling you after many years of experience the corrugated stuff causes trouble,worst of all the short can happen anywhere on it's length making troubleshooting a major PITA. Pat

[trailcutter]

Tidied up the ABS wiring today. Decided to do a 50-50. I left the original cover so that LRA couldn't claim what I had done caused a problem, but enclosed the offending section in some heater hose and sealed it with heat shrink. Waiting for some push in zip tie holders and then I will use hte original fixing points. The joiner is under the red heat shrink.


good stuff ,, like ya style ,,,,
it..dont take much ,,time,,re routing / buffers etc etc = peace of mind and familiararity, lie under wagon get comfy and scrutinise all and sundry ,especially lines ,,,,,,,eng bay etc etc.

i get under wagon at least once a year / with spanners / sokets etc etc / check tourqes ,,,,,,,,,usually in the company of a long brown bottle , with red label that says ,,sparkling ale......cheers



666

[Fish78]

I made a comment a few pages back, saying it wasn't fair to compare LR with Nissan, to clarify, i wasn't supporting LR's lack of service/reliability, the point i was getting to was, its not fair to compare them because LR has a certain record of problems, knowing this you should be aware that buying any LR comes with baggage, is that ok, no its bloody terrible, but it is what it is.

As for the 3-6 yr life time, that's rubbish, my father has a 1998 hyundia Exel, it has done 500 000 plus KM, 85% of that is on dirt roads as it is used on a country mail run, it gets maintained by a mechainc, BUT it is on the original engine and original gearbox which still feel quite good. The Exel gets serviced every 10k and the normal things have been replaced, discs, fuel inj has had an overhaul, but the engine is still from the factory, never opened, never had any problems with it, it has always started first time and never broken down.

If the Koreans can make a car that cost $12,999 new in 1998, then LR surely can build one that costs in excess of $50 000 with the same quality.

Knowing all that doesnt change how i feel, i still like LRs and love RRs, i just know what to expect and i find it enjoyable to get the best out of them.

[spudboy]

666

???

[chops110]

Yep, gotta say I'm happy with my Puma, warts n all. Mine's for playing mind, so I'm not too fussed if it's out of action and I have to walk a bit further to get to that fishing spot. To comment on some thing I've read in this thread...I've worked for mining companies for 25 years, and yes they use toyotas or occasionally nissans in the main. We have used defenders at a couple of sites I've worked at and they were fine too. The big Jap makers are better at up-front fleet pricing and spare part supply. Oh, and those Rover glasses - they come free with every Land Rover!

Happy new year!
Chops110

[mudder110]

hi.all.im.new.here.hope.ya.dont.mind.me.commenting .i.work.and.play.in.the
gulf.of.carpentaria.just.did.12.weeks.at.doomadge.
i.would.not.touch.anything.with.direct.injecton.as .they.are.much.more.likely.to.cause
problems.when.touring.my.98.110.tdi.has.never.miss ed.a.beat.270000ks
but.there.have.been.probs.with.direct.i.have.seen. one.with.a.puma
and.is.looking.to.be.expensive.but.the.most.seem.t o.be.with.the.new.cruisers
and.nissans.ya.can.google.it.and.read.it.for.yours elves.defender.owners.are
i.think.enthuists.unfourtantly.alluminum.and.steel .dont.mix
but.in.saying.that.i.dont.wait.5000ks.to.check.thi ngs.out.i.enjoy.the.hands.on
deal.with.my.110.as.for.electrics.maybe.landrover. need.to.pick.there.act.up
if.i.was.gunna.spend.60grand.on.a.new.truck.woulda nt.be.a.puma.
but.they.are.still.on.par.with.anything.jap.in.doo madge.the.cops.and.the
ambos.take.turns.pulling.each.other.out.of.the.gre gory.river.crossing
as.the.cruisers.alternators.are.to.low.and.dont.ev en.wanna.start.me.on.the.
starter.motors.cheers.all.and.happy.new.year.sorry .about.all.the.stops.space.bar.broken

[nugge t]

As part of an article I am doing for 4WD Action I decided to redo the diff breather lines and terminate them in a manifold..see members ride thread when I udate it a bit later....

Bottom line was that the front diff breather was not in the fitting properly meaning it was not sealed. The "hook" was too short so it did not reach the fixture section of the fitting and could be pulled out without depressing the release ring. Guess it is part of the close enough is good enough QA.

Something like this is really annoying as it looked fine but would have led to problems and it wears away at the confidence if some thing so simple can not be done right......

I bought this as the dealers demo and the salesman's famous words when I queried quality concerns....mate this one has been gone over with a fine toothed comb as it is our demo.........................

Still love the truck but obviously my comb has finer teeth and aren't I glad I didn't get one of the ones which hadn't had the benefit of a complete check over by the dealers finely tuned, eagle eyed, 365 days of experience, first year apprentice.:cool:

[pathfinder]

being a long time Landy driver/owner (40 years plus) I can tell you "all this....is 'normal'...for Landrovers"

You have to go back to 1948 and the 'original design intent'

POINT 1 :these critters were originally designed as a 'substitute tractor' for English farmers, which is why they were built with a PTO to the rear, so the cocky could hitch up his haybaler/chaffcutter.whatever.......

POINT 2: The gearboxes in these vehicles always have been (and I hope they never change....) TRUCK BOXES. read...."Industrial Grade" If I remember aright my old 54 Ser. I shorty had no synchro in 1st?! (and quite possibly none in any of the other gears also :D

POINT 3: these veehickles are 'Mil. Spec.light trucks' and are currently used as such by multitudinous Military bodies worldwide. Inc the Australian & Brit armies, AND, you HAVE to adopt the Military mindset when using these and SERVICE THEM REGULARLY !!

POINT 4: these vehicles are NOT designed for anything but the aforementioned uses. That we use them as an 'everyday commute' is beside the point !! I repeat , Landies are NOT a Toyota Prius.....or a Ser 7 BMW......you are DRIVING A TRUCK !! Got it !!?? You will NEVER get 'passenger car' performance from these things. so don't expect it. You've bought the finest 'off the shelf' 4 WD vehicle available.......the only mods you need to make are possibly 'serious rubber'....i.e. AT or MT tyres.

If you ain't happy, buy a new Ford or Holden sedan, but don't try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear !!

just remember.........ITS A TRUCK DAMMIT !! :cool:

[nugge t]

being a long time Landy driver/owner (40 years plus) I can tell you "all this....is 'normal'...for Landrovers"

You have to go back to 1948 and the 'original design intent'

POINT 1 :these critters were originally designed as a 'substitute tractor' for English farmers, which is why they were built with a PTO to the rear, so the cocky could hitch up his haybaler/chaffcutter.whatever.......

POINT 2: The gearboxes in these vehicles always have been (and I hope they never change....) TRUCK BOXES. read...."Industrial Grade" If I remember aright my old 54 Ser. I shorty had no synchro in 1st?! (and quite possibly none in any of the other gears also :D

POINT 3: these veehickles are 'Mil. Spec.light trucks' and are currently used as such by multitudinous Military bodies worldwide. Inc the Australian & Brit armies, AND, you HAVE to adopt the Military mindset when using these and SERVICE THEM REGULARLY !!

POINT 4: these vehicles are NOT designed for anything but the aforementioned uses. That we use them as an 'everyday commute' is beside the point !! I repeat , Landies are NOT a Toyota Prius.....or a Ser 7 BMW......you are DRIVING A TRUCK !! Got it !!?? You will NEVER get 'passenger car' performance from these things. so don't expect it. You've bought the finest 'off the shelf' 4 WD vehicle available.......the only mods you need to make are possibly 'serious rubber'....i.e. AT or MT tyres.

If you ain't happy, buy a new Ford or Holden sedan, but don't try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear !!

just remember.........ITS A TRUCK DAMMIT !! :cool:

If that rant is aimed at me I think you might want to chill out sunshine.

I don't disagree or are complaining about any of the things you list, in fact they are exactly the reasons I bought a Defender because I wanted a rugged, strong, no frills, reliable 4WD that would take me to remote areas and more importantly, get me back.

Just a couple of points

1. The English farmer didn't expect his sustitue tractor to break down when he was hauling the chaffcutter.

2. Give me an truck box .. give me a bloody tank box....just don't give me sloppy driveline where the slap has to cause wear and tell me it is good.

3. Like all things Military, they have there own specifications and I bet it doesn't include sloppy drivelines, diff breathers not connected propery and ABS wiring ready to rub through on chassis brackets. Personally I would be prefer no ABS, before you climb all over that.

More than happy to service it twice as much as recommended by the LR, the Military or bloody NASA for that matter but build it so I don't have to return it for warranty four times as often as I have to return it for service.

4. I didn't ask for passenger car performance or comfort. I actually like the driving position and love driving the truck and have fitted good rubber.

No where have I complained about the general design, performance, ride or comfort so I do not understand your outburst. Silly me I thought other Puma owners might appreciate the diff breather problem being pointed out so they could check theirs and posssibly save them some hurt down the track. Now that you have so kindly pointed out that all of this is normal, I'll save my time in future as, being "normal' they would have already found it for themselves.

What I believe I have done is drawn attention to bad build issues as I work on mine and if that offends your Land rover loyalty, tough.....go read another thread.:o

[pathfinder]

now THAT got yer dander up didn't it ??!! :D

I apologise if you thought I was having a go at you personally.I wasn't.

I was however,commenting generally on 'Landrover reality'.....and 'issues/problems' that have been ongoing with these vehicle since 1948.

When I bought my first Landy in the early 70's ( 54 Ser.1 SWB ragtop) the feller I bought it from told me, "it snaps rear axles, get yourself a couple of spares" I did, and sure enough it snapped axles! The later 'Salisbury diffs' were less prone to this phenomena, but even on my 96 110,last year I had to replace the back axles.

Basically we're talking 'build issues' when it comes to all things 'Landrover'...(and I'm also talking about 'mileage' issues.......)

A mate down the road with a 10 year old Rangie (verrry nice car) back traded it last week, for this very reason. It had cost almost double what he paid for it a year back, just to keep the damn thing on the road........electrics, electronics,driveline and finally a 'floating' cylinder sleeve in the block..... he was quoted $7500 for a reco motor. Pat, quite rightly threw in the towell and got rid of the burden for a big AWD Holden.

One of the major 'issues' we have in Australia that no other country in the world has (with the exception of Siberia perhaps?) is that we rack up the ks. Pats Rangie had done 240,000....my Deefer has done over 400,000..........The Poms never designed them to do this sort of mileage. A Pommie owned Landy might only do 100,000 miles ever! Unless it happens to be an 'expedition vehicle' or doing the 'Paris-Dakar' on a regular basis.

The reason Military Landies last so long is that they are regularly serviced. The Veh. Mtd boys in the SAS are checking theirs over daily. They have been 'trained' to do this..... and everything is 'logged'. You can be charged for not servicing your vehicle.
In civvie life this almost never happens. Most of us are not 'trained mechanics', nor do we take the time to check the mundane.............and we probably don't need to?

So whats the 'use by' date on Landies?? I doubt JRL would have a figure. However its 'generally accepted' that you 'ought to get' 4-500,000 ks out of the vehicle assuming its been regularly serviced and not flogged.

"driveline slop" ? ask me about it...............no...don't bother. The front propshaft 'blew' shortly after I bought the truck 3 years back........mostly due to lack of grease I suspect. The back always 'clunked' and only stopped 'clunking' after the LHS axle spit the dummy last year.

'Build quality'..............it has been said " the British car worker only warms to his task by mid-week........and by Thursday he's starting to lose interest again'....so working on that basis if your car was built on 'Wednesday' you're sweet!! Any other day of the week?? Tough !! :D

[isuzutoo-eh]

Aren't industrial/truck/tractor/Land Rover gearboxes designed to have backlash, and whilst that leads to more slop, it is also one of their strengths? Something to do with the finer the tolerances, the more susceptible to wear causing problems?

[nugge t]

now THAT got yer dander up didn't it ??!! :D

I apologise if you thought I was having a go at you personally.I wasn't.



No worries. I have said it previously but I love the Defender. Despite what I believe to be excessive driveline movement, and the unresolved clunking when I turn the engine on and off, I have not been stranded or had any thing actually break down. I seriously enjoy driving it and can not wait to get away on a decent trip.

Having established that, I am disappointed with the lack of attention to build detail on minor things which just should not be an issue.

Cheers:D

[OLR-067]

I can understand where you are coming from Nuggett. I would hate to pay good dollars for a brand new unit only to find common sense things getting on my nerves. All that could be said about it is that Land Rover don't seem to care about the defender, pure and simply.

Sure it is buit to a price, all manufacturing these days is exceptionally lean, but what are the QC on rear diffs, is anyone auditing for supplier compliance.Being hand built simply magnifies the problem and the margins compared to D3 or RR must just compound it. QC along the whole process must be near non existant. I would be asking the dealer what there pre-delivery department does. Failure to capture problems out of the factory is bad enough, but also at the dealer. Just says they have contempt for the Defender buyer.


Paul

[pathfinder]

Aren't industrial/truck/tractor/Land Rover gearboxes designed to have backlash, and whilst that leads to more slop, it is also one of their strengths? Something to do with the finer the tolerances, the more susceptible to wear causing problems?

yes they are...........

Landys, are the vehicle equivalent of an AK47 assault rifle.....which is perhaps the most 'utilitarian' weapon ever made.......reeeeal loooose tolerances, to allow for copious amounts of mud, dust and ice... not great in the 'accuracy' dept, but if you want something that can survive dropping in a mud puddle or a swamp or large amounts of desert sand..then the AK is the 'go-to' gun.

Its the old KISS rule........'over-complexity' and 'fine-engineering' will kill any device designed for hard use.

your average passenger car gearbox is designed with helical cut gears to ensure nice smoooooth gearchanges........problem with this design is it ain't too strong. 'Straight-cut' gears are inherently much stronger, look at the gear setup on heavy duty winches or turret gears on a tank, or tboxes on older trucks............all square cut.
Yes they clunk and graunch, but with the minimum of care they'll last forever.

[dullbird]

hi.all.im.new.here.hope.ya.dont.mind.me.commenting .i.work.and.play.in.the
gulf.of.carpentaria.just.did.12.weeks.at.doomadge.
i.would.not.touch.anything.with.direct.injecton.as .they.are.much.more.likely.to.cause
problems.when.touring.my.98.110.tdi.has.never.miss ed.a.beat.270000ks
but.there.have.been.probs.with.direct.i.have.seen. one.with.a.puma
and.is.looking.to.be.expensive.but.the.most.seem.t o.be.with.the.new.cruisers
and.nissans.ya.can.google.it.and.read.it.for.yours elves.defender.owners.are
i.think.enthuists.unfourtantly.alluminum.and.steel .dont.mix
but.in.saying.that.i.dont.wait.5000ks.to.check.thi ngs.out.i.enjoy.the.hands.on
deal.with.my.110.as.for.electrics.maybe.landrover. need.to.pick.there.act.up
if.i.was.gunna.spend.60grand.on.a.new.truck.woulda nt.be.a.puma.
but.they.are.still.on.par.with.anything.jap.in.doo madge.the.cops.and.the
ambos.take.turns.pulling.each.other.out.of.the.gre gory.river.crossing
as.the.cruisers.alternators.are.to.low.and.dont.ev en.wanna.start.me.on.the.
starter.motors.cheers.all.and.happy.new.year.sorry .about.all.the.stops.space.bar.broken

Morse code?:eek:

[spudboy]

Morse code?:eek:

Ha ha - I thought he was .NET programmer (that's how properties/methods are specified), but no, a simple explanation:

....sorry.about.all.the.stops.space.bar.broken

[chops110]

On the subject of dealers and LRA, these guys have a huge influence on how we see the Puma. I bought mine in Townsville too and the dealer, David, is a Defender man and makes sure that when you buy one you know what you are buying and that it is fundamentally different to a car-based 4wd. I'm now in Tassie and I have found a south African chap who knows his Defenders at the local dealer and I talk with him about squeaks, rattles, drive line slop because he has not handed me the "harden up it's a defender" line. He says that an amount of play in the drivine is typical to allow for field servicing in less than ideal conditions, however this should not be excessive. So a clunk when changing from first to reverse or vice versa is ok but a clunk on every gear change is not. I'm actually happy with a dealer who is honest about these things.....
Chops110

[alittlebitconcerned]

On the subject of dealers and LRA, these guys have a huge influence on how we see the Puma. I bought mine in Townsville too and the dealer, David, is a Defender man and makes sure that when you buy one you know what you are buying and that it is fundamentally different to a car-based 4wd. I'm now in Tassie and I have found a south African chap who knows his Defenders at the local dealer and I talk with him about squeaks, rattles, drive line slop because he has not handed me the "harden up it's a defender" line. He says that an amount of play in the drivine is typical to allow for field servicing in less than ideal conditions, however this should not be excessive. So a clunk when changing from first to reverse or vice versa is ok but a clunk on every gear change is not. I'm actually happy with a dealer who is honest about these things.....
Chops110

A good point! I too will happily live with clunks and backlash if I knew there was a reason for it and they weren't fault based. Finding a dealer who knows anything about the car that they are selling seems to be the challenge though and when questioned many just seem to make up answers on the spot. Good on you for finding your bloke, an honest dealer is worth their weight in diesel.

[nugge t]

On the subject of dealers and LRA, these guys have a huge influence on how we see the Puma. I bought mine in Townsville too and the dealer, David, is a Defender man and makes sure that when you buy one you know what you are buying and that it is fundamentally different to a car-based 4wd. I'm now in Tassie and I have found a south African chap who knows his Defenders at the local dealer and I talk with him about squeaks, rattles, drive line slop because he has not handed me the "harden up it's a defender" line. He says that an amount of play in the drivine is typical to allow for field servicing in less than ideal conditions, however this should not be excessive. So a clunk when changing from first to reverse or vice versa is ok but a clunk on every gear change is not. I'm actually happy with a dealer who is honest about these things.....
Chops110

I would love to have him in Brisbane! What you say is exactly right..we just want an honest answer so we know where the goal posts are. LRA want to keep it extremely vague so there can be no finite answer. As I have said before, I have 24mm movement at the hand brake drum when in neutral. If LRA said 32mm is acceptable, we will monitor it at each service and fix it if reaches 32mm, fine. This..."its a Defender" ain't cutting the mustard anymore.

Imagine if the same thing was happening to the brakes and they didn't work for the first 24 m and then cut in..do you reckon we would be accepting....."That's OK, it's normal Defender"

Based on the definition you have been given, mine is unacceptable.

[nugge t]

Just wondering if anyone has check the diff breathers on their Puma and found the same problem as me.

Interested if it is a common thing or if mine is just oddball.

[Symo]

Just wondering if anyone has check the diff breathers on their Puma and found the same problem as me.Interested if it is a common thing or if mine is just oddball.

Mine are fine nugge t, made sure all that suff was spot on when we fitted the lockers. Both come up under the bonnet and seal well arround the diffs.

Thinking about it - The scary one is the gearbox breether, built into the bell housing with the crappiest piece of crap plastic hose with barb- you know just gunna fall out - so i used a big dop of salastic and glued it in.

[NOZ]

I all, I have just read the 9 pages here (well most of it) as I am considering buying a Puma soon.

I agree the dealer should be able to cover any issue with any newish Land Rover.

Now I have had a TD5 110 (just sold it) and another forum member "RAT" has a (TD5 110, 2006 I think), both of us have used MR Automotive to maintain our Defenders in fact we would take it to them if we thought the cars had any issue, they would tell us what the problem was and we would take it to L/R and get them to fix it.

Not the right way for things to happen I agree, but M.R are fantastic they know Land Rovers and in particular Defender's inside and out. I know "Rat" took he 2006 Defender to M.R just before the warranty ran out and they gave the car a once over and then gave him a list to have L/R cover before the warranty ran out.

This was common for both our Defenders, if we thought something was wrong we would go to L/R get fobbed off then go to M.R find out the real issue then go back to L/R and have it fixed under warranty.

Defender's ya gotta love them.

Give M.R a try

[rovercare]

your average passenger car gearbox is designed with helical cut gears to ensure nice smoooooth gearchanges........problem with this design is it ain't too strong. 'Straight-cut' gears are inherently much stronger, look at the gear setup on heavy duty winches or turret gears on a tank, or tboxes on older trucks............all square cut.
Yes they clunk and graunch, but with the minimum of care they'll last forever.


He says that an amount of play in the drivine is typical to allow for field servicing in less than ideal conditions, however this should not be excessive.

Nice little world:eek:

A small amount of slop can be attributed to being constant 4WD, the rest is a combination of bad metallurgy or engineering, i.e. worn drive flanges

Good luck finding any straight cut gears in a LR drivetrain and it has nothing to do with being designed for any "service"

They haven't been "truck" gearboxes since the 4 speed, everything later has been sourced from road cars and haven't been "truck" diff's since they removed the salisbury

No offence gentlemen, but I wouldn't keep telling yourselves the above, or else you might actually believe it:(

[Scouse]

They haven't been "truck" gearboxes since the 4 speed, everything later has been sourced from road carsI came across this today for the first time in relation to the current Defender gearbox:

Transmission:6 SPD MAN TRANS VOLVO M66 AWD

That's from the TOPIx site.

[rovercare]

I came across this today for the first time in relation to the current Defender gearbox:

Transmission:6 SPD MAN TRANS VOLVO M66 AWD

That's from the TOPIx site.

The M66 is fitted to a transaxle AWD ovlov, so maybe same box but in different case? either way, its far from a truck or a tractor crash box with straight cut gears:angel:

[Naks]

The Puma gearbox is the Getrag MT82, which is also fitted to the Mustang and other Ford vehicles.

[Naks]

I came across this today for the first time in relation to the current Defender gearbox: Transmission:6 SPD MAN TRANS VOLVO M66 AWD That's from the TOPIx site.


Not sure how you get that from the Topix site. When I plug in my VIN, I get the following:


Series:3 DOOR STATION WAGON
Engine:2.4L DOHC HPCR DSL 140PS PUMA
Drive:4 WHL R/H FULL TIME DRIVE
Transmission:6 SPD MAN TRANS-MT82
CAB style:STATION WAGON 3 DR
Colour:ALASKA WHITE

[Scouse]

I hadn't come across it before which is why I thought it was odd.

I was using Dullbird's VIN to double check some details before a warranty claim went in.

[Didge]

hi.all.im.new.here.hope.ya.dont.mind.me.commenting .i.work.and.play.in.the
gulf.of.carpentaria.just.did.12.weeks.at.doomadge.
i.would.not.touch.anything.with.direct.injecton.as .they.are.much.more.likely.to.cause
problems.when.touring.my.98.110.tdi.has.never.miss ed.a.beat.270000ks
but.there.have.been.probs.with.direct.i.have.seen. one.with.a.puma
and.is.looking.to.be.expensive.but.the.most.seem.t o.be.with.the.new.cruisers
and.nissans.ya.can.google.it.and.read.it.for.yours elves.defender.owners.are
i.think.enthuists.unfourtantly.alluminum.and.steel .dont.mix
but.in.saying.that.i.dont.wait.5000ks.to.check.thi ngs.out.i.enjoy.the.hands.on
deal.with.my.110.as.for.electrics.maybe.landrover. need.to.pick.there.act.up
if.i.was.gunna.spend.60grand.on.a.new.truck.woulda nt.be.a.puma.
but.they.are.still.on.par.with.anything.jap.in.doo madge.the.cops.and.the
ambos.take.turns.pulling.each.other.out.of.the.gre gory.river.crossing
as.the.cruisers.alternators.are.to.low.and.dont.ev en.wanna.start.me.on.the.
starter.motors.cheers.all.and.happy.new.year.sorry .about.all.the.stops.space.bar.broken


That was funniy Mudder, a funny explanation at the end

[Didge]

The Puma gearbox is the Getrag MT82, which is also fitted to the Mustang and other Ford vehicles.

Getrag to mop up the oil??

[chops110]

So the latest on mine...took her to LR with a list of things to repair (after having had the once over from my local mechanic) and they did a good job on the transfer box, gave me a fob off on gearbox noise, but took the rear driveline slop seriously and have decided to replace the entire rear diff innards. 2-1 to me this round, need to do more research on gearbox noises so might go looking for a technical forum on the gertrag box.
Good conversation on this thread too, it's a good read!

[nugge t]

Dealer has confirmed receipt of my emails and the truck is booked in for the 20th...first available loan car!

They want it for a week so they can "go right over it". I hope the apprentice is on holidays and they have the gun on it.

[n plus one]

I would love to have him in Brisbane! What you say is exactly right..we just want an honest answer so we know where the goal posts are. LRA want to keep it extremely vague so there can be no finite answer. As I have said before, I have 24mm movement at the hand brake drum when in neutral. If LRA said 32mm is acceptable, we will monitor it at each service and fix it if reaches 32mm, fine. This..."its a Defender" ain't cutting the mustard anymore.

Imagine if the same thing was happening to the brakes and they didn't work for the first 24 m and then cut in..do you reckon we would be accepting....."That's OK, it's normal Defender"

Based on the definition you have been given, mine is unacceptable.

Hey Nugge t, your rear movement getting worse? Thought yours was better than mine (24mm) previously?

[nugge t]

Doesn't appear to have gotten any worse but hasn't been driven much of late..the 32mm was a fictional LR Quality Control number....very fictional as they don't appear to have one!

On a positive note, despite all of the rain, I don't have any leaks as many others seem to. If it doesn't leak with ths weather we are having I should be OK unles they develope over time, but for now...touch wood.

[nugge t]

The 110 is back at the dealer. They are going to check the driveline slop again with a specific instruction to check it against LR specifications, not "other Defenders on the lot".

Hopefully getting it back Thursday and even more hopefully everything is done.

Whilst it has been in, they supplied me a Freelander..... I will appologise to any Freelander drivers first up.....

Anyway, my wife asked me to go to the shops which I duly did like any good husband and on the list was a 6 pack of West Coast...I ahve never been more embarrased in my life walking back to the Freelander with a 6 pack of West Coast under my arm :(

[weeds]

Anyway, my wife asked me to go to the shops which I duly did like any good husband and on the list was a 6 pack of West Coast...I ahve never been more embarrased in my life walking back to the Freelander with a 6 pack of West Coast under my arm :(

didn't know you could still buy west coast coolers.......

[newhue]

Anyway, my wife asked me to go to the shops which I duly did like any good husband and on the list was a 6 pack of West Coast...I ahve never been more embarrased in my life walking back to the Freelander with a 6 pack of West Coast under my arm :(

ha ha suck it up Nugget, I had to walk into a construction site after all the lads had seen my 130. Does you Freelander have the dealers colours plastered all over it?

[nugge t]

No it doesn't...if it did peopel would know it was either a loan or I was employed by the company and had to drive it..roll on Thursday when the 110 "should be ready". Guess it will be Friday!

[nugge t]

Got the 110 back yesterday. Heater controls and dash that they buggered are fixed.

Tub corrosion has been cleaned up and "photos taken for future reference". That hardly fills me with warm and fuzzy feelings that they are confident they have fixed it.

The noise when starting and turning off can be heard, felt as a vibration through the chassis and anything else they hang onto but sorry, we have no idea what it causing it. We should get a clearer indication when it breaks or fails seems to be the best they can come up with.

The big one and surprise, surprise.... Driveline backlash all in LR specs. Well actually they report that there is no spec for combined driveline slop. There is a turning torque for the front and rear diffs and mine is correct. Backlash measured at the crown wheel is the only spec provided by LR and again, mine is fine. So individually, all components are within the spec provided, but combined they suck.

Looks like I can head off in to the wild blue yonder with total confidence in the driveline and hopefully, even more confidence in LR Assist!

Resolved to LR's satisfaction would be the most accurate description of the state of play.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Having been subjected to the LR/dealer bs machine, I feel for you. Do you get the feeling they aren't your mates? Good luck with your defer.

[Naks]

Having been retrenched recently and finding myself bored, I went and spent the day at my local indie's workshop.

I am trully appalled at the quality of the workmanship in the Puma - fuel lines not tied down, ABS cables dangling all over the place, no protective cover over cables, etc

So I spent the day tying up loose pipes & cables under my landy, and just making sure things will not be ripped out accidentally.

The fuel cooler is a major weakness though, all it will take is a branch and your Puma will be kaput in the bush. I am fitting a fuel cooler guard asap!

[KarlB]

The fuel cooler is a major weakness though, all it will take is a branch and your Puma will be kaput in the bush. I am fitting a fuel cooler guard asap!
I have been thinking about getting a fuel cooler guard for ages. The only one I am aware of is from Devon 4x4 (see Defender Tdci fuel cooler guard (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1226&category_id=261&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=14)). Are you aware of others Naks? Is anyone in Australia aware of where I can source one here?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Naks]

I have been thinking about getting a fuel cooler guard for ages. The only one I am aware of is from Devon 4x4 (see Defender Tdci fuel cooler guard (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1226&category_id=261&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=14)). Are you aware of others Naks? Is anyone in Australia aware of where I can source one here?


Karl, I'm getting the Terrafirma one, see here (http://www.land-rover-parts-shop.com/za/ui/products.php'model=Defender&engine=Td4%202.4&cattext=Expedition%20and%20Protection&subcattext=Underbody%20Guards&group=Terrafirma%20Fuel%20Cooler%20Guard&year=2009).

I'm pretty sure there must be a reseller in AU? Or contact Mulgo, they may be able to help!

[nugge t]

Driving to work this morning and turned on the lights...pffttt...green indicator light on dash blew. Wondered if it was part of a larger problem I checked lights which were working except for front left park which must have a blow globe. Do they deliberately sourse their components from Dodgy Brothers Imports just to keep us all on our toes?

Trust this is not the start of minor random electrical issues which I understand has been an issue. At least this can wait till its first service.

[nugge t]

Just a bit of positive feedback as well as I would hate people to think that I think the Defender is a lemon...far from it. I love it absolutely and on the weekend I fell in love with the anti stall system...how good is that on a really steep downhill in 1st Low, engine breaking working and you can literally stand on the brake and it won't stall. Roger Vickery the Qld ARB state Manager had told be how good it was after he spent 2 weeks in a 110 on a variety bash, and he was right. Am sure some will not like it, but damn it worked for me.

Not so in love with the Traction Control and finding the fuse has moved up the priority list. Some times you just need momentum and when stuck in heavy mud I needed to get a run up to get over a slippery crest. A locker and no TC would have been the go but the TC kept putting the brakes on every time a wheel looked like slipping a bit and I just couldn't get the speed up.

[nugge t]

Thought only the "lights", light had blown when I turn them on this morning. Just went for night drive.....indicators, high beam, engine lights on start up all Ok but no dash lights for the instruments working at all.

Either I don't drive at night or I book it in for the 5th time..only got it back on Friday..this is wearing thin.

Because the dealer had the dash out last week, I don't want to touch it and give them a warranty Get out of jail free card.

[NOZ]

I get my 110 mid feb I hope I have more luck than you have had so far.

[sashadidi]

I have been thinking about getting a fuel cooler guard for ages. The only one I am aware of is from Devon 4x4 (see Defender Tdci fuel cooler guard (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1226&category_id=261&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=14)). Are you aware of others Naks? Is anyone in Australia aware of where I can source one here?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

Hi Karl, we just imported it from the Uk and fitted it, was not so expensive
Cheers

[nugge t]

Hi Karl, we just imported it from the Uk and fitted it, was not so expensive
Cheers

Was that to fit on a Puma??

[Loubrey]

Nugget,

Land Rover Tuning NSW at $228 (Puma Fuel Cooler Guard) and I'm also looking at the (Puma Transmission Guard at $285

Landrover Tuning :: Protection Defender - Defender (http://www.landrovertuning.com.au/shop/defender/protection)

Mulgo sells the same Transmission Guard for the same price

Cheers!

[KarlB]

The Devon 4X4 cooler guard is AU$50 (UK£32) plus shipping. Has to work out considerably cheaper than LandRover Tuning.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[wagoo]

Not so in love with the Traction Control and finding the fuse has moved up the priority list. Some times you just need momentum and when stuck in heavy mud I needed to get a run up to get over a slippery crest. A locker and no TC would have been the go but the TC kept putting the brakes on every time a wheel looked like slipping a bit and I just couldn't get the speed up.

I really suck at the internet, otherwise I would like to crosslink the above paragraph over to the "Independant Suspension Vs Live Axle" thread in the General Chat forum.where the subject of ETC Vs Difflocks has entered the debate.
wagoo.

[Loubrey]

KarlB,

Thanks for that. I didn't even bother to look.

Devon 4X4 Fuel Cooler Guard - 31.76 GBP ($50.59)
Devon 4x4 Transmission Guard - 54.60 GBP ($86.97)
DHL Delivery to Perth (3-4 Days) - 53.50 GBP ($85.22)

Total $222.78 with British VAT!($199.86 without, but I'll end up paying the tax this side). Buying "local" would cost me $513.00 plus delivery from over East. The cooler guard is a different brand, but the same design.

It would be nice to support local business, but something's just not right!

[newhue]

KarlB,

Thanks for that. I didn't even bother to look.

Devon 4X4 Fuel Cooler Guard - 31.76 GBP ($50.59)
Devon 4x4 Transmission Guard - 54.60 GBP ($86.97)
DHL Delivery to Perth (3-4 Days) - 53.50 GBP ($85.22)

Total $222.78 with British VAT!($199.86 without, but I'll end up paying the tax this side). Buying "local" would cost me $513.00 plus delivery from over East. The cooler guard is a different brand, but the same design.

It would be nice to support local business, but something's just not right!

Hey I looking at that very same order.

Anyone interested in a group buy to Brisvegas ???

Yes it is for a Puma

[Loubrey]

Newhue,

They only offer airfreight by weight on the D44 web shop. More you buy the heavier it gets and the DHL price goes up. Very nice shop though, a few lighter items might ease the sting of the delivery.

Cheers!

[rovercare]

I really suck at the internet, otherwise I would like to crosslink the above paragraph over to the "Independant Suspension Vs Live Axle" thread in the General Chat forum.where the subject of ETC Vs Difflocks has entered the debate.
wagoo.

Just hit quote, then copy and paste ALL the text that's in the box in a reply in the other thread, easy:D

Or right click on the post number, copy shortcut and paste that

[newhue]

Newhue,

They only offer airfreight by weight on the D44 web shop. More you buy the heavier it gets and the DHL price goes up. Very nice shop though, a few lighter items might ease the sting of the delivery.

Cheers!

I wonder if like the USA they ship free within the country. Then perhaps we could get it reassigned with a different carrier. Would need a helpfull Englishman to help with the process however.
I guess couriers tend to use size or weight to balance the price so it's hard to have a win regardless.
Alternatively shop in the USA if they can supply. Those guys know how to offer up service.

Do you know how much your order weighed?

[sashadidi]

Was that to fit on a Puma??

yes for the Puma and got the transmission guard as well

[Loubrey]

Newhue,

Yes they ship free in the UK.

The order said 3.5 kg, which seemed light considering the braces and brackets on the transmission guard, but hey - I'm not complaining! I got the order confirmation through by e-mail and from experience with Devon 4x4, it will be packed and shipped before COB UK time.

Sorry Nugget - hijacked your thread a bit there!:eek:

[wagoo]

Just hit quote, then copy and paste ALL the text that's in the box in a reply in the other thread, easy:D

Or right click on the post number, copy shortcut and paste that

Paste?I tried that and now the PC screen is all covered in my daughters sticky craft glue:(.I told you I sucked at the net.:)
I'll wait til she comes home to show me how to do what you suggest.
Wagoo.

[nugge t]

Hey I looking at that very same order.

Anyone interested in a group buy to Brisvegas ???

Yes it is for a Puma

I am in. If anyone else is, PM me.

[Hamjam]

Hi all,
I bought a brand new 1998 defender TDi 300 (in 1998) and it has never missed a Beat. It has clocked up 350,000 and I went and replaced it with a Disco, I ended up with a LEMON, fuel pump went, replaced twice, 2 chips were replaced, and the last thing that went was the torque converter, I was so pi$$$$ off with this Disco as it only had 30,000 on the clock. So I then replaced it with a 1998 defender TDi 300 wagon. I got it from western Aus with just 66,000 on the clock just last year. And I have not had any problems with it, just clicked over to 200.000 last week.

Yes I also can get the gears to clunk when I am in a hurry changing gears.

(And would you believe it my old Tdi 300 that I sold is still driving around town.)
(I am so sad I should have not sold it but I did)

[grover7488]

Alternatively shop in the USA if they can supply. Those guys know how to offer up service.

try Lucky8

they have the Devon products

Fuel guard US$76
Transmission guard US$131

[nugge t]

Have to eat humble pie on the dash lights....

Number plate light housing got knocked when we went to Glasshouse and had an internal short. I was aware of it but because all of the other external lights were working, and the history of the dealer working on the dash, I thought it was the dash....and incidentally, so did they.

Dealer did an excellent job even picking the truck up from my place and dropping it back, and fixed it all under warrantry as a measure of goodwill.

They also tightened the mechanism which holds the front doors in the open position. I had come to almost enjoy the game of trying to get in before the door closed on the back of your foot....is much nicer to have reach out and actually close the door once you are in!

[NOZ]

Congrates to the dealer its not often they go above the call of duty.

[nugge t]

The fixed already once under warranty Air Con has just died again......

[pathfinder]

They also tightened the mechanism which holds the front doors in the open position. I had come to almost enjoy the game of trying to get in before the door closed on the back of your foot....is much nicer to have reach out and actually close the door once you are in!

WOT ?? I thort THAT was an 'extra cost/special feature' on Defenders???[bigrolf] mine do that all the time ................:bangin: I figgered it was a 'get-fit-in-yer-right-leg' extra..............rear door will slam shut at ANY angle..................'self-closin' doors' I tell me mates............[bigwhistle]

[newhue]

They also tightened the mechanism which holds the front doors in the open position. I had come to almost enjoy the game of trying to get in before the door closed on the back of your foot....is much nicer to have reach out and actually close the door once you are in!

WOT ?? I thort THAT was an 'extra cost/special feature' on Defenders???[bigrolf] mine do that all the time ................:bangin: I figgered it was a 'get-fit-in-yer-right-leg' extra..............rear door will slam shut at ANY angle..................'self-closin' doors' I tell me mates............[bigwhistle]

Apparently for the fronts anyway, its as simple as locktighting the bolt that holds the tensioner. Mine was done last service and is still like new months after. Where as the time before when I asked it be rectified, it lasted about a week.

[pathfinder]

ummmmmmmmmmmm, there's a 'tensioner' ????:eek:

I allus figgerd the lousy quality control was just a Pommie/Commie working- class-payback plot against us Colonial Chappies.................. for supporting their capitalist 'Masters' & buying the vee-hickles in the first palce.:bat:???

[nugge t]

I am so p!ssed off I was going to start a new thread. Dead set, Land rover couldn't organise a chook raffle.

My A/C, already fixed once under warranty, died again. The dealer was good, so much so that one of their people who lives down the road picked the truck up from my home and took it in for me..that's the good part.

Got a call from Service and was advised that LR have decided that they will not replace any of the faulty units as the replacements...which are supposed to be an improved version, are also all faulty. Mine worked for about 6 months before dying again, but this time LR have said that they will not supply another part and I have to wait for the another "New improved" part.

The only problem is that LR do not have a replacement date for the faulty parts, can give no indication as to when it might even remotely be available and have basically said...shut up and wear it.

Funny but when I handed over my hard earned folding stuff, it was not on the basis that most features would work most of the time. Seriously, in this day and age, this sort of service is totally unacceptable.

This is my second LR. The first experience was a disaster and I waited 10 years before I gave them the benefit of the doubt again. Sadly they are showing me they haven't changed at all.

Please save me the..its a Defender, it shouldn't have A/C etc etc.

I seriously love driving this truck but LR are wearing thin...again!

[alittlebitconcerned]

sorry to hear that nugget. I know how you feel.

[nugge t]

Back to the dealer tomorrow as the A/C fix is finally in. While it is in they will check out the recall on the oil leak to the park brake and fix the leaking passenger swivel ball.

Current Kms is a mere 8,000 as I have been too busy doing the roof rack and bullbar to get away, but am about to start hitting the dirt again.