Selectro front hubs

[Scallops]

Folks - Matilda has Selectro hubs fitted - I have been following advice to leave them engaged permanently to circulate oil fully through the diff and axle. That seems like good advice.

I have also read other thoughts suggesting just engage these hubs periodically as when disengaged, fuel economy and wear and tear on componentry is reduced.

I only use Matilda on the road really.

Does anyone have any advice on these ideas?

1) Should I just leave them engaged all the time?
2) Should I drive mostly disengaged and just engage them periodically?
3) It doesn't mater either way?

If No 2 - say driving the vehicle 300 miles (on road) - might I perhaps engage them for 50 of these miles?

[Tote]

Do a little test and see if it is quiter, better on fuel or nicer to drive with the hubs unlocked, if it is unlock them and occasionally take it for a drive with them locked. If not just leave them locked. I've always thought that freewheeling hubs were a bit of a con anyway and on the Pajero and the Maverick I drove could never tell the difference between locked and unlocked.

Regards,
Tote

[Timj]

I leave mine locked. I tried unlocked on one of the Games and I believe it makes it handle worse. This could of course be a pointer to something else needing fixing but I didn't notice any reduction in fuel use so I just don't bother unlocking them now. Unless a small percentage of fuel saving is very important to you I would leave them locked. Standard hubs stay locked anyway and the free wheeling ones were an option.

TimJ.

[Xtreme]

Folks - Matilda has Selectro hubs fitted

1) Should I just leave them engaged all the time?
2) Should I drive mostly disengaged and just engage them periodically?
3) It doesn't mater either way?


If you choose option 1, you may as well refit standard hubs/drive members - and this would be my choice.
Should you decide to keep the free wheeling hubs I would only disengage them for 90% of your longer drives.

For the low mileage that you are likely to do in Matilda, the wear factor dosen't really come into play and in my experience the (suggested) reduction in fuel consumption would be negligable.

I might add that, possibly through poor servicing or not fully engaging when required, I have known of numerous failures of free wheeling hubs - another reason to revert to the original hubs/drive members.

[101RRS]

If you leave them engaged all the time - what is the point in having them?

I have had two series vehicles that were also my everyday drivers - the first was a series 1 which I owned for 8 years - I was doing upwards of 1000km a week at one stage and never has an issue having the hubs unlocked. I did go 4wding in it from time to time so things got lubricated but I am sure is a bit of an old wives tail - stuff not turning so lube not needed.

The second was a series 3 with hubs and again my everyday vehicle and I never used it off road - again I had not issues and owned this vehicle for 5 years.

I found that driving with hubs engaged there was more vibration and noise from the front end - with them disengaged the vehicle was smoother and quieter.

Now these vehicles already has fw hubs and I don't believe the hype about better fuel consumption etc but if fitted why not use them and if the front has a bit of wear they make the car a bit nicer to drive when disengaged.

Garry

[isuzurover]

I measured fuel consumption in my IIA with hubs free and hubs locked. I found no difference. I then removed them and fitted drive flanges.

I did notice a difference in resistance driving off when I first locked the hube each time - likely due to everything being relubed for the first time in a while.

[B.S.F.]

If you drive with the hubs disengaged and you break a rear half shaft the hand break doesn't work.If this happens on a slope in the middle of town you're lucky,because you can shout at passers by to place something behind a wheel.Of course they can't find anything.In the end you have to take one of your steel capped boots off and throw it out the window while keeping the other firmly on the break pedal.
If this happens in the bush and you're on your own......good luck.Have a guess how I know this.
W.

[JayBoRover]

I had to say "thanks" W ... you gave me a chuckle on busy Friday afternoon in the office:D
Just to add something "on topic" though. With hubs locked I get added vibration. The fuel economy difference is probably theoretically there but also probably equal to whether there's a passenger in the car or not. So the solution is: throw your passenger out if engaging the hubs (I find the passenger often wants "out" when I engage 4x4:eek:).
Cheers
JayBo

[back_in]

Hi All
only use when needed, on a 86
on the black stuff you will get wind up
if the tyres do not slip like they do on dirt ie off road
you will possibly brake something
with wind up you will not be able to unlock the front hubs
to do so you will need to drive in reverse to free them up
if you want to engage them every now and then
do it on a straight road, do not turn corners, only for a distance
when you turn corners, one wheel covers more than the other
this causes wind up
cheers
ian

[numpty]

Hi All
only use when needed, on a 86
on the black stuff you will get wind up
if the tyres do not slip like they do on dirt ie off road
you will possibly brake something
with wind up you will not be able to unlock the front hubs
to do so you will need to drive in reverse to free them up
if you want to engage them every now and then
do it on a straight road, do not turn corners, only for a distance
when you turn corners, one wheel covers more than the other
this causes wind up
cheers
ian

:eek::eek:

Dont know where you're coming from, but mine are locked all of the time and I have no issues.

[chazza]

Your post is only relevant Ian, if 4WD is engaged at the time.

With the hubs engaged and 2WD selected, no wind-up will occur,

Cheers Charlie

[numpty]

Your post is only relevant Ian, if 4WD is engaged at the time.

With the hubs engaged and 4WD selected, no wind-up will occur,

Cheers Charlie

I presume Charlie, that you meant 4wd NOT selected;)

[chazza]

Thanks Numpty, I have amended my post to what I meant to say :p

Cheers Charlie

[Scallops]

Been away for several days, chaps - really appreciate the collective thought here. Just returned from a trip to Canungra with the front disengaged and I couldn't really pick it in terms of fuel consumption or any thing else.

Thanks again to each of you for adding to the discussion.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If you drive with the hubs disengaged and you break a rear half shaft the hand break doesn't work.If this happens on a slope in the middle of town you're lucky,because you can shout at passers by to place something behind a wheel.<snip>I had this happen on Parramatta Road in "lane 2" on Taverners Hill in Leichhardt Sydney during morning peak hour. I had no drive and of course no hand brake so I just had hold on my foot brake to stop traffic until someone road raged up to my window. I then asked him to turn the hubs on each side so I could continue up the hill and into the first side street.

With that issue, the problems of uneven prop shaft wear and imperceptible fuel economy differences I wouldn't ever fit free-wheel hubs again and in fact have removed them from my Gog.

[123rover50]

I think free-wheel hubs are a major cause of broken axles.
I broke one back in 1968 at the Leyland Bros centre tree blaze near The Alice. In high range reversing out. Heavy sand. Dropped into low forgetting hubs were out. Snap. Front wheel drive to Port Augusta.

[back_in]

Hi All
omitted to mention
at the start of my coment, you should make sure the transfer case is in 2 wheel drive.
If in 4 wheel drive, all I said would be correct.
cheers
Ian

[solmanic]

Personally I think the question of whether or not to dis-engage free-wheeling hubs only matters if you are talking about regular driving miles (ie. 30,000+km per year). I never engaged the hubs on my Series III except when needed off-road. The logic of unnecessary friction and wear on road won out for me.

For the kind of miles you are likely to do in Matilda, the benefits either way are negligible. I would go with the - leave them dis-engaged but if you're needing to have a fiddle with something then lock them in for a bit.

[isuzutoo-eh]

As Matilda is a beast of pleasure rather than burden, you could choose by aesthetics.
I prefer the look of the standard hubs with those little metal hub caps whereas others I am sure prefer the chunky look of the selectable hubs.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
I never engaged the hubs on my Series III except when needed off-road. The logic of unnecessary friction and wear on road won out for me.
<snip>.Which unecessary friction and wear are you talking about?

When the hubs are disengaged the diff and prop shaft find a natural position, this is almost always the same position when the universal yoke on the diff end is in the horizontal position, with the grease nipples down. This position allows the front suspension to work in its normal vertical plane. Every time the axle assembly goes up and down on each and every bump, the prop shaft spline slides in and out. This causes unnecessary friction and wear in one plane of the spline and eventually an out of balance prop shaft. The same can be said of wear within the freewheeling hubs themselves.

An unloaded well lubricated drive line causes minimal wear on the individual components, the railco bushes in the swivels get lubricated reducing unnecessary wear of the fibrous material, the crownwheel in the diff and the diff berings continue to get lubricated and the surfaces remain rust free.

[isuzurover]

I never engaged the hubs on my Series III except when needed off-road. The logic of unnecessary friction and wear on road won out for me.

As Diana points out your logic is flawed.

I have lost count of the number of toyota front ends which I have seen which have needed to be rebuilt because the diff bearings have been brinneled/rattled to death (i.e. are now indented/pitted beyond use) or the top half of the crownwheel has gone rusty. So your front end parts are likely to need replacing more often if you don't lock your hubs in enough.

[Scallops]

Reading these replies and driving the vehicle with my hubs engaged / disengaged - I'm leaving them engaged now. Thanks for everyone's input. :)

[solmanic]

Which unecessary friction and wear are you talking about?

When the hubs are disengaged the diff and prop shaft find a natural position, this is almost always the same position when the universal yoke on the diff end is in the horizontal position, with the grease nipples down. This position allows the front suspension to work in its normal vertical plane. Every time the axle assembly goes up and down on each and every bump, the prop shaft spline slides in and out. This causes unnecessary friction and wear in one plane of the spline and eventually an out of balance prop shaft. The same can be said of wear within the freewheeling hubs themselves.

An unloaded well lubricated drive line causes minimal wear on the individual components, the railco bushes in the swivels get lubricated reducing unnecessary wear of the fibrous material, the crownwheel in the diff and the diff berings continue to get lubricated and the surfaces remain rust free.

I understand what you're saying but in all the years I owned and drove the Series III I never came across anyone espousing the virtues of leaving the hubs locked permanently in. I am not at all suggesting they remain permanently unlocked as your post above pretty much explains just how bad that can be. But in relation to your query about friction and wear the logic I am referring to is:
1. A moving part will wear faster than a non-moving part. We seem to disagree about whether moving via jiggling in a fixed orientation is ultimately worse than high speed constant rotation (plus jiggling).
2. It is easier to spin a wheel with the hub unlocked than one with it locked no matter how well the front axle & diff assembly is lubricated.

Surely to question the use of free-wheeling hubs at all is to question their fitment as standard equipment on nearly every part-time 4WD vehicle over the last 30 years.

I repeat my original assessment - Scallops - I don't think it really matters either way for the miles Matilda is likely to be travelling.

[solmanic]

As Diana points out your logic is flawed.

I have lost count of the number of toyota front ends which I have seen which have needed to be rebuilt because the diff bearings have been brinneled/rattled to death (i.e. are now indented/pitted beyond use) or the top half of the crownwheel has gone rusty. So your front end parts are likely to need replacing more often if you don't lock your hubs in enough.

I guess there are always going to be idiots who buy Toyotas and then never take them off-road. :p (or never learn how to use them correctly).

[isuzurover]

1. A moving part will wear faster than a non-moving part. We seem to disagree about whether moving via jiggling in a fixed orientation is ultimately worse than high speed constant rotation (plus jiggling).


Surely to question the use of free-wheeling hubs at all is to question their fitment as standard equipment on nearly every part-time 4WD vehicle over the last 30 years.



If a moving part is (a) under no load and (b) well lubricated, it will not necessarily wear.
I never noticed a difference in spinning wheels with hubs locked or unlocked.

Most/all other 4x4s beside land rovers have heavy grease lubrucating their swivel balls. Which results in lots more resistance to rotation.
However in the same vein, leaf springs are still standard fitment many nissotas, but coils are much cheaper to make, lighter, and give a smoother ride???

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Solmanic

I'm not having a go at you, but I feel that a lot of the theories you espouse are the result of advertising myths and not engineering data. More than that I once thought about freewheeling hubs as you seem to now but after having had them on my vehicles from the mid 1970's onwards, I now believe that the disadvantages of freewheeling hubs far outweigh any benefits.


I understand what you're saying but in all the <snip>
I am not at all suggesting they remain permanently unlocked <snip>
<snip> I never engaged the hubs on my Series III except when needed off-road. <snip>Well actually, with the exception of off road, you did suggest exactly that!

<snip> But in relation to your query about friction and wear the logic I am referring to is:
1. A moving part will wear faster than a non-moving part. <snip> As Ben confirmed the bearings in the uni-joints, diff pinion and carrier bearings become brinnelled (pitted in channels where the roller sits) causing premature failure, which doesn't happen with a rotating drive train that isn't under load. While minimal wear does occur it is spread evenly around the bearing not in trenches caused by the vibration in the one spot for the static drive train.

<snip> We seem to disagree about whether moving via jiggling in a fixed orientation is ultimately worse than high speed constant rotation (plus jiggling). <snip> I believe that jiggling in the one plane is far worse than sliding during rotation. The reason for this is that in the static shaft the wear is in one plane, the splines can become quite sloppy in that plane but remain tight in the plane at 90 degrees to it. The wear in a spinning shaft is evenly distributed 360 deg around the spline.
<snip>2. It is easier to spin a wheel with the hub unlocked than one with it locked no matter how well the front axle & diff assembly is lubricated. <snip> You are talking about resistance to rotational forces, yes that is true during the initial acceleration. However once the drivetrain is in motion (a rotating mass) it will tend to stay in motion unless some other force acts upon it. This is born out by the lack of evidence of significantly improved fuel economy with freewheeling hubs disengaged.

<snip> Surely to question the use of free-wheeling hubs at all is to question their fitment as standard equipment on nearly every part-time 4WD vehicle over the last 30 years.<snip>Land Rover never fitted freewheel hubs to it's vehicles and for the last 25 years Land Rovers and many other makes have been constant 4WD. But it is true as a result of market pressure many car dealers (including Land Rover dealer networks in Australia-for about 10 years) offered aftermarket freewheel hubs as optional extras and the Japanese manufacturers even went so far as to make them standard equipment for private buyers in many markets.

[Col.Coleman]

I think we are all missing the point here. We are not talking about pristine bearing and gear surfaces that need to be protected to get us through the next 50 years.

Dan's vehicle has not had the driveline touched in the resto, so who knows what uneven or even wear has occured. Given the fact the vehicle is occasionally driven, I would leave them locked to lubricate the upper bushes, joints, bearings and such. If on the occasion you are going to partake in a drive of some distance(say to Blinman) unlock them. You will probably notice less vibrations more than anything else.

CC

[solmanic]

Well actually, with the exception of off road, you did suggest exactly that!

Actually no... what I didn't include in that comment was that I was off-roading about once a month. Ergo I was locking in the hubs each month.


The wear in a spinning shaft is evenly distributed 360 deg around the spline. As Ben confirmed the bearings in the uni-joints, diff pinion and carrier bearings become brinnelled (pitted in channels where the roller sits) causing premature failure, which doesn't happen with a rotating drive train that isn't under load. While minimal wear does occur it is spread evenly around the bearing not in trenches caused by the vibration in the one spot for the static drive train.
I believe that jiggling in the one plane is far worse than sliding during rotation. The reason for this is that in the static shaft the wear is in one plane, the splines can become quite sloppy in that plane but remain tight in the plane at 90 degrees to it.

I'm not disputing this will happen if some peanut never engages their hubs, only questioning the idea the hubs should never be disengaged or that there is no benefit in disengaging hubs.


You are talking about resistance to rotational forces, yes that is true during the initial acceleration. However once the drivetrain is in motion (a rotating mass) it will tend to stay in motion unless some other force acts upon it. This is born out by the lack of evidence of significantly improved fuel economy with freewheeling hubs disengaged.

This is physics 101. More moving parts no matter how well lubed will have a higher rolling resistance than less moving parts. And I thought there was a wealth of evidence that they improved economy. I just Googled this out of curiosity and got no hits suggesting otherwise.


Land Rover never fitted freewheel hubs to it's vehicles and for the last 25 years Land Rovers and many other makes have been constant 4WD. But it is true as a result of market pressure many car dealers (including Land Rover dealer networks in Australia) offered aftermarket freewheel hubs as optional extras and the Japanese manufacturers even went so far as to make them standard equipment for private buyers in many markets.

I said part-time 4WDs. As far as I am aware the standard fitment of free-wheeling hubs to Japanese 4WDs accounts for the majority. Incidentally, what part-time 4WDs have been marketed without free-wheeling hubs since, say 1980? This is a genuine question as I can't think of any.

[chazza]

There seems to be two furphys about free wheeling hubs:
1. That they reduce wear on the front axle. Quite clearly they do not, as Diana has pointed out and as Ben says, brinelling of bearings will occur. When new assembled cars were shipped to Australia from Britain, they were often found to have damaged wheel bearings from the vibration of the sea voyage! The advice given in a previous post to disengage them for long drives, seems to me to be the time which will promote maximum damage to the prop shaft; bearings and railko bushes.
2. That they promote fuel economy. In my experience of driving a Land Loser with hubs engaged, or disengaged over hundreds of kilometres along the same routes, there is no difference discernible at all in the fuel consumed.

In addition to the above; having the useless things disengaged when you desperately need 4WD in a hurry, such as when approaching boggy ground, or deep sand on a track, either leads to a tedious halt or an unexpected bogging. Many fire services for this reason weld or fasten the free wheel hubs in the locked position, after losing lives whilst a bogged vehicle is burnt-over.

[Col.Coleman]

MMmmm. People get fixated on a point of view and that's all they see.

Lets look at it this way. I have a series 3 that is used in much the same way as Scallop's Matilda. It is a car that is not a daily driver. It sits around all week, and if there is something on, and I have an oportunity, I take it out for a drive. Sometimes longer. The hubs get locked in for putting around town to lubricate everything after it has been sitting.

Now this is a 32yo car. It has been around a while, so while in excellent mechanical condition, and this is the important bit, "for it's age", it still has some foibles. So while hooning down the M1 at 110kph, the hubs are most definately unlocked, because it is much smoother with a whole lot less vibration through the steering and vehicle than when locked in. Now I hear you say, there must be something wrong with the driveline. Yep there is. It's been going around for 32 years. I could spend the money replacing every part and balancing the front shaft, but I would rather spend that money getting one of my other 14 vehicles finished. There is nothing actually wrong with the front driveline, it just has vibrations.

I also use this vehicle to tow my field kitchen of 1.6ton. I manouvere the trailer in low range, because it is easier. Without disconnecting hubs fitted, my manouvering on bitumen and concrete would cause all manor of wind up.

Now being a sensible person, if I go anywhere near away from the bitumen, which face it is all 90% of restored series 1's see nowadays anyway, I engage the hubs, or have on the way there to warm the oil and lubricate in preperation for applying driving force, and initiate 4wd.

Take the defender day out. I drove the 100 odd Freeway/highwayK's from my house to Boonah because it was more comfortable, engaged hubs at Boonah to prepare for off roading some 20k down the road. Went hard off road dragging the KFM in 1st low (just) up some Very steep hills, then disengaged for the 120 odd highway/freeway trip home.

You know what. The world didn't end.

If I drive it to Corowa, on the Highway, they will be disengaged, because it is more comfortable.Especially on the Billiard Table smooth modern freeways we have now. On dirt, there is that much else going on, locking them in you don't notice.

The wear compared to the previous 32 years of it's life in my opinion will be insignificant. I'm not for or against. I haven't fitted them, nor do I remove them. I just use a bit of practicality.

CC

[Scallops]

Well, I just can't pick any difference in vibrations or anything else engaged or disengaged - I'll leave them in. It was advice Glen gave me, I wasn't so much questioning it as looking for a discussion for pros and cons.

Lucky I didn't mention the dirty fork! :p :D

Thanks everyone - a vigorous and educational debate, for me anyway. :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<sipp> ...I'm not disputing this will happen if some peanut never engages their hubs, only questioning the idea the hubs should never be disengaged or that there is no benefit in disengaging hubs. <I'm suggesting people remove their freewheel hubs and fit the original flanges - as from personal experience from the early 1970's using both freewheel hubs and not using the hubs - I believe the disadvantages far outweigh any benefits of almost indistinguishable fuel savings>
This is physics 101. More moving parts no matter how well lubed will have a higher rolling resistance than less moving parts. And I thought there was a wealth of evidence that they improved economy. I just Googled this out of curiosity and got no hits suggesting otherwise. <Even Wikipedia with millions of potential contributors has found no evidence and in the same paragraph mentions the disadvantages - Locking hubs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_hubs) >
I said part-time 4WDs. As far as I am aware the standard fitment of free-wheeling hubs to Japanese 4WDs accounts for the majority. Incidentally, what part-time 4WDs have been marketed without free-wheeling hubs since, say 1980? This is a genuine question as I can't think of any.Seeing that this is a Land Rover forum - Land Rover, the SIII part time 4WD continued to be marketed alongside the Stage 1 until the 110 and 90 models were released. Santana (Metalurgica de Santa Ana) were making part time 4WD based on the LT230 without FW hubs, (and apparently still are) in fact the Santana gearset will fit inside a Land Rover LT230 giving you a part time 4WD)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1764.jpg

Then there were Subaru part time 4WD Leonie and Brumby with no freewheel hubs. Probably the Indian Tata and Mahindra

[dreamin']

Lucky I didn't mention the dirty fork! :p :D

:)


or the war

[dreamin']

I tried to remove the AVM fwhs from Arfa tonight - got all the hub bolts out but it wouldn't release. What's the trick for getting them off?

[chazza]

Is there a roll-pin or screws holding the outside of the thing in place?

One of mine fell off because it was knackered but the other one had fasteners that I couldn't budge, so I ended up chain-drilling the aluminium casting and breaking it off with a hammer,

Cheers Charlie

[drifter]

Looks like it has 6 bolts:

Products AVM (http://www.avm.com.br/products4.htm)

scroll down to where it says Land Rover

[Aaron IIA]

You need a TORX driver to remove the six small screws to remove the engaging cover. Once off, remove the split pin or "R" clip. Remove the 1" axle retaining nut. Then remove the six BSF bolts holding the remainder of the free-wheeling hub to the wheel hub.

Aaron.