New 130 owner - need air con

[towe0609]

I've been loitering for a while, but now I finally feel at home after today purchasing a 1999 TD5 130 - get this - with 24,000km on the clock. Had to pay a premium obviously, but very happy with the low kms as I plan on setting it up with a custom camper canopy and hang on to it for a long time.

Only problem, no air-con (and its bright orange).

I know, I know, wind down the windows, open the vents, take the roof off etc etc. Please no posts along these lines. These arguements simply will not fly with my partner.

I understand the stock air con unit is a 'bolt on' arrangement, so assuming the parts are available, I assume it is possible to fit it. Are the parts available (new)? Any idea of cost?

Can you get any aftermarket solutions? I've seen reference to installing industrial red dot units (Red Dot's Product Line (http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/6830_unit.html)), but I don't know where it would fit, and whether you can rig it up to stock parts under the bonnet. Has anyone cobbled together an air con system for a TD5 defender?

I'm sure I'll have many other questions, and hopefully after a while, knowledge to offer. For now, here is a photo.

[justinc]

Great buy!!

The A/C issue is a very important one to get right, and I'm happy you don't already have that useless factory (Australia) fitted one.

Red dot have various units on offer, external rooftop evaporators down to internal rooftop units that mount like a rooftop console. You can use a new compressor, and have it plumbed in, PROPERLY unlike the factory arrangement. Condenser is an easy fit too, so get to it! Best thing to do is call into an experienced A/C fitter that does campers and minibusses, they'll have all the answers and will be able to fit too.
The bracketry and drive belt/ idler etc is all available from LR.
The underdash Factory ones really impinge on legroom for the passenger, so best to steer well clear of these IMHO.

I'm about to undertake the same thing in a 110, so I'll share some more info when it starts to go further.

JC

[lardy]

If you want the ease of fitment Elite is the company that produced air con for Land rover.
Think it's just under $1800 inc shipping but check.
Elite Automotive : Providing heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) system solutions... (http://www.eliteautomotive.co.uk/html/TD5LH.html)
This service was brought to you free of charge by lardyinfo.com.au:p

Paint is good makes you different ...keep it

[fender22]

Probably just about an authority on this as I just had one installed in my 93 110 :-).

This is a long story so you may want to get comfortable and ask the missus to make you a cup of tea.

Where do I start! Rang umpteen installers in Brisbane and generally I found they weren't interested in a job that was a bit different. I was looking at red dot aftermarket units and the problem I found was getting the brackets / pulley etc to fit the compressor to the engine. One guy reckoned he'd have a crack at it, could do it for around $2,500 installed. Was about 40km from home but as they seemed my only option and knew LR's and were confident they could do it I took the trip. After a day they said it was all too hard and they weren't confident they could manufacture brackets etc for the compressor. So an 80km round trip for nothing. I see someone says Land rover can supply the bracketry etc? Mine is a bit older than yours (200TDI) but I lucked out there. I usually find LR can't supply anything? They didn't have a top radiator hose in Australia for a 200TDI a few weeks ago. Mine also is a low k's, rust free minter which I bought at the right price and didn't mind spending a few dollars on. My plan B was to go to an RV / Truck installer but again no joy. One of them even said but it's not a truck. I assured them a 5 minute drive in the vehicle would convince them it was most definitely a truck but again not interested. I also thought a roof top model would be an easy fit. Maybe I was ringing the wrong people and you may have better luck? I love this forum and am always amazed at the generosity etc of members but I didn't have a lot of luck getting advice. Made one post but like you said tired after reading the third page of open the windows, it's just another thing to break down, tale the doors off etc. I think it's something you either have from new or you don't and it would be good to say sometimes "please don't reply to post if you don't know and spare me the words of caution".

Anyway, out of the blue the guy who was going to fit the new aftermarket one rang me the next week and said a wreckers in SA had an original unit (Australian fitted) for $650 and if I paid for it he could still fit that for $2500 haha. I told him not to do me any favors!

I rang the wreckers myself and they said it was a working unit just pulled out of a vehicle with everything ready to go so I snapped it up. (I found out later they added another $250 on top of that for freight without my knowledge taking the price up to $900 but that's another story!). Anyway, rang around the local installers and no one really interested in doing it. There really is only about 4 main components but they must assume you're going to turn up with a box of rusty old bits and pieces for them to try and make work. Finally got on to one mob who said they'd do it for $600-1000. I was getting desperate so said ok, lets party!

Dropped the vehicle off and right from the get go they whinged and moaned. The guy took one look at it and said the under dash vent unit wont fit. I actually had to hold it in place for him (fitted like a glove) to show him it was fine. Anyway, left them to it and after not hearing anything for a week (no news is good news) decided to give them a call. More whinging and bitching and said the wreckers didn't send all the parts. If they would have told me earlier in the week I could have sorted it 4 days sooner but anyway....Sounded to me like pretty minor stuff that could have been easy fixed or made...an L bracket to mount the condensor and a harness plug. I was pssd off they hadn't called me to sort it out sooner but anyway, got onto the wreckers and after another week the extra bits arrived. Would have been sooner but TNT couldn't find the premises etc so the balls up of the delivery of the missing parts also took on a life of it's own! Left it there another week and no word so rang the installers up and more whining and bitching and he tells me the idler pulley / tensioner was missing. I inquired as to why they hadn't told me sooner and wasted another week and he told me he was under the impression I was going to source one? I said A) I didn't know it was missing and B) I wouldn't know an idler pulley / tensioner if I found one in my fking cornflakes! By this time I was getting agitated. The installer was treating me like I was a total nuisance, and seemed to be making a lot of grief for no reason. It's not like I was ringing them every day hassling them. He kept reminding me there'd be no warranty, etc. Just completely negative. The installer was an Australia wide mob so I decided to ring their head office. Got onto the area manager and the first thing he said was "who are you having trouble with? The fat one or the thinner guy?" I said it sounds like you've had complaints before and he said no comment :-( He told me they were a franchise and operator owned so they couldn't do a lot (there's a lesson in this alone!) I told the area manager I was confident in using their business as I thought there would be some back up etc but seems like all they do as the main office is rake in the franchise fees! Was starting to seem like one of those movies where your car breaks down in a hick town and you leave it with the hillbillys to repair and it just goes on forever and you're being financially raped in the process (squeal piggy).

Anyway, can u believe I asked the area manager not to say anything to them as I was concerned they may actually do something to harm the vehicle!

I ring the wreckers again to tell them they seem to have forgotten the idler pulley thingy and they tell me sorry, but they'd sold the engine that would still have that bit attached! They then told me that they had done me a huge favor selling me the unit for $650 (plus $250 freight) and they normally get around $1400. I told the bloke there I didn't haggle about the price I was quoted, and at no time was I told I was getting a cheapy or incomplete unit, and in fact I made the original guy on the phone assure me it was 100% complete and working. I bet they got the car for free or paid some poor bstrd $150 for the complete vehicle! What really pssed me off was that the main thing I needed, even if the compressor was bung were the brackets, and these were the very things they left out!

So in frustration, I rang the installer, said pack up what you haven't installed. I'll pay you for what you've done and be on my way. Had a gutful of it! He rings me an hour later and says we been to the wreckers and found a bit that will do and all good. Vehicle will be finished in an hour! And so it was.

Now I understand it was never going to be a straight forward operation, and I also understand wreckers aren't generally the service professionals of the auto industry but the wreckers not sending all the bits aside, had the installers rang me straight away when there were a few little hick ups, things would have been a lot smoother. The wreckers assured me all would be complete and I didn't realize they would be sending a 15yo boy to remove the unit from the vehicle with a lump hammer and chisel. It's not like the installers where doing me a favor? $1200 bucks is a lot for a labor only job where the componentry was basically made to bolt straight into the vehicle. The installers just seemed to be hoping for things to go wrong and whined and bitched throughout the whole saga. They never contacted me once on the couple of occasions they had a snag, instead let it sit there for a week until I had to ring them. Then when I did ring (two or three times during the whole operation) they treated me like a pest. I asked them why they agreed to do the job in the first place? Generally all the pipes, compressor, bkts etc where complete and in good condition and it was just a matter of fitting it in. They ended up charging me $1200 so all up around $2000 to get a second hand unit fitted. Am I happy with the end result? HELL YEAH! The air con is freezing, cools the cab down really fast and I get great air flow with the vents. (I like it blowing straight on me). That was going to be one of the downsides of a red dot was that it could only be installed under the dash on the passenger side restricting leg room and the air vents would be on the unit on that side. In a way I was lucky. Cost me $2000 to get what is essentially a 15yo unit installed but could have been worse. Even though the wreckers initially assured me the whole unit was operational, if the compressor or fan unit was faulty I would have been up for more money at best and totally screwed at worst if it couldn't be replaced. Originally it was going to cost around $1200 fitted. I'd heard even when they where new the Australian fitted ones were ordinary at best and with the new gas in it (10% less efficient than the old gas) would be even worse but figured for $1200 I'd chance it. Like I said, not so. I don't know why this one works so well and is so cold but it does! I hope you have better luck than me. The process was totally frustrating but the end result was worth it. I hope the above may steer you in the right direction. I was probably a bit impatient in and in hind sight would have been better of finding someone who was keener on the job and possibly had a little more enginuity or experience with Land Rovers. I would say however if you can get a new one fitted in a suitable part of the vehicle at a decent price I reckon I would go that way. With all the dramas I had with a used one it still could have been a lot worse.

On another note, just fitted Mulro seat extender brackets, to make the seat go back further. Best $90 bucks I ever spent. About 10 minutes to fit and so much more leg (and gut) room behind the wheel.

[towe0609]

and have it plumbed in, PROPERLY unlike the factory arrangement. .......call into an experienced A/C fitter that does campers and minibusses, they'll have all the answers and will be able to fit too......I'm about to undertake the same thing in a 110, so I'll share some more info when it starts to go further. JC

Thanks Justin. Can you say a bit more about "plumbed in properly" - what is wrong with the plumbing in the factor arrangement?

Do you have any tips about places in Melbourne, or even Tasmania (my partners a Tasmanian and we visit regularly) that could do the job. I am attracted to the idea of a red dot unit - but worried about the customisation - especially after reading the horror stories.

I'll very much look forward to hearing how you get on with your 110.

Thanks again

[towe0609]

Thanks Fender22 and sorry to hear about your woes on this front, but I appreciate your words of warning. I'll certainly be making sure I find someone I'm confident in before signing them up for the job based on your experience which would drive me mad.

"That was going to be one of the downsides of a red dot was that it could only be installed under the dash on the passenger side restricting leg room and the air vents would be on the unit on that side"

Is that the only option? I was thinking it might be possible to do something either
1. where the cubby box is, or
2. in an overhead (ceiling mount), or
3. even in the centre on the rear wall of the Cab (I'm going to be putting a canopy on so doesn't matter if I block the window) but I don't really want to get into having to relocate controls etc. unless it is easy to do.

[towe0609]

If you want the ease of fitment Elite is the company that produced air con for Land rover.
Think it's just under $1800 inc shipping but check.
Elite Automotive : Providing heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) system solutions... (http://www.eliteautomotive.co.uk/html/TD5LH.html)
This service was brought to you free of charge by lardyinfo.com.au

Thanks Lardy - I had found that page but didn't understand they were the official supplier, so that is very helpful. I was also a little confused by the picture provided for the td5 unit which didn't seem complete. Do they just supply the bits that go inside the cab, or for all the parts needed for an aftermarket install (eg. compressor, condenser etc).

Tim

[Ranga]

Try my post here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/116210-photos-air-con-install-200-300tdi-2.html#post1362518 to see a possible installation option I spotted in a vehicle for sale.

[decibelcore]

Hi Towe0609
Check out this link where you may be able to buy an original air-con system in australia, if that was the way you decide to go,
8 - Landrover Parts (http://www.landroverclassicparts.com.au/AIR-COND---1999-TO-2001-c19029-g.aspx)

Good luck

[towe0609]

Try my post here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/116210-photos-air-con-install-200-300tdi-2.html#post1362518 to see a possible installation option I spotted in a vehicle for sale.

Cheers Ranga - very helpful photo. I wonder if that Red Dot Unit could be spun around 180 degrees so some of the vents point to the rear seats?

$2,500 without any of the under bonnet work seems a lot given the red dot unit can be had for $555 delivered on the bay of evil.

[lardy]

Thanks Lardy - I had found that page but didn't understand they were the official supplier, so that is very helpful. I was also a little confused by the picture provided for the td5 unit which didn't seem complete. Do they just supply the bits that go inside the cab, or for all the parts needed for an aftermarket install (eg. compressor, condenser etc).

Tim

Tim It's the complete kit they do it as a diy job for the aftermarket with insructions you get the lot, but obviously have to get it gassed up at the end.
Andy

[justinc]

Thanks Justin. Can you say a bit more about "plumbed in properly" - what is wrong with the plumbing in the factor arrangement?

Do you have any tips about places in Melbourne, or even Tasmania (my partners a Tasmanian and we visit regularly) that could do the job. I am attracted to the idea of a red dot unit - but worried about the customisation - especially after reading the horror stories.

I'll very much look forward to hearing how you get on with your 110.

Thanks again

Poor assembly and fitting here caused many to lose gas and become inoperative in no time, 300Tdi era Def were the worst offenders. Td5 models seemed to have better quality control. I have found all sorts of chaffed through pipes, loose connections etc etc that were all the result of poor fitment. Everynow and then I'd find a 'fender that has still got its original gas in its system from new, but it is a rare thing:(
This is what I am considering...

http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/2000_unit.html

JC

[towe0609]

"This is what I am considering...
http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pa...2000_unit.html (http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/2000_unit.html)
JC"

Given cold air falls, makes a lot of sense.

Where would you run the pipe work? Would you custom all the pipe work, or use stock till your through the firewall, and then custom from there?

Do I need to get the ECU to know there is an AC system?

[justinc]

"This is what I am considering...
http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pa...2000_unit.html (http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/2000_unit.html)
JC"

Given cold air falls, makes a lot of sense.

Where would you run the pipe work? Would you custom all the pipe work, or use stock till your through the firewall, and then custom from there?

Do I need to get the ECU to know there is an AC system?

All of my factory A/C is gone. Every hose etc will be remade, properly. I am using a front mounted 1997 D1 A/C condenser which is already fitted with twin fans and the drier, so a nice simple arrangement for fitting and servicing. I'll be running the evaporator pipework out of the side of the roof, and down the LH of the A pillar where the rollcage upright will run. It'll be quite protected there. There is an input for A/C compressor load, not sure what ECU pin it is, but RAVE should show you. All you need to do is link signal in from A/C compressor feed to allow idle up when compressor is engaged, and activate 'A/C fitted' in the ECU settings. Not had to do this, but can't see why it wouldn't work:)
I won't have to, Isuzus' don't have any form of electronics...:angel:
It isn't going to be cheap, BUT seeing as this vehicle is our touring rig for the forseeable future, it must be done right and be reliable. It is way cheaper than buying another, more 'modern' vehicle!

JC

[towe0609]

Got a quote today from Massaro Motors Morwell. $1900 for a second hand complete AC unit, $800 to fit, $100 for gas. Thoughts?

[justinc]

Got a quote today from Massaro Motors Morwell. $1900 for a second hand complete AC unit, $800 to fit, $100 for gas. Thoughts?

Err, I just almost GAVE one away:eek:

I would be hesitant to get a used Defender one unless it was working recently. The evaporator could be leaking, it could be contaminated etc etc.

IMHO you would be better off with new at those $$.

JC

[cols110]

What about the Red Dot R-9777, it is a complete instillation with the evaporator and condensor in the same unit with with a 25000 BTU capacity, I am tempted to get one myself, as with this unit I can also connect it to my existing TD5 110 knee chiller which should turn my 110 into a fridge.

At the moment the standard A/C is not up to the job, out here in Dubai we have 5 months with the daily temp in the high 40s, at best the front of the cab comes down to mid 30 degree temps.

http://209.44.124.200/~transfair/media/R-9777.pdf

[towe0609]

Well I took a step toward solving this today, picking up a compressor from Linn's taking advantage of their 20% off Dec special.

The short list is a Rencool RTK5 (Renegade Auto Cool (http://www.rencool.com.au/12_24_air_conditioners.html)) or a Red Dot 9777-1 (Red Dot's Product Line (http://www.rdac.com/Pages/product_pages/units_pages/9777_unit.html)) as I'm attracted to the 'all in one' design and leaving maximum air flow to the radiator.

Anyone installed either of these to a Defender? I haven't removed the roof lining (at the front) to know what structural work exists that might get in the way of the installation of either of these units. Any issues with the weight (26kg)? Any advice appreciated.

[Blknight.aus]

26KG is under the load limit from the roof and I've seen heavier units hanging from the roof.

while you're mounting it why not do the 2 birds with one stone thing.

makeup 8 round ally discs from 4-5mm ally plate drill out 4 to the appropriate size for the mounting bolts and thread the other 4 to suit the mounting bolts ( I strongly suggest converting to fine pitch threads for this) mount the unit through the roof with the threaded plates on the top of the roof and the bolts protruding through. Wind on some nyloc nuts and then onto the bolt thread that is left protruding mount yourself a single solar panel in preperation for when you add a dual battery system.

From memory the renegade unit is physically smaller than the red dot unit but the red dot unit is easier to maintain. Both work equally well as far as I am aware.

[SuperchargedSport]

[QUOTE=towe0609;1392226]Well I took a step toward solving this today, picking up a compressor from Linn's taking advantage of their 20% off Dec special.


And it should work great. Great transaction, If you are missing anything further please dont hesitate too send us an email.

BTW great looking defender, ive had a couple of ex fesa defers, They just spray over a white car. I just got them resprayed back over white and they look great. I once bought an ex mines defer and full of problems, much better getting ex fesa :) the fully loaded fire setup on the back of some of them comes too the tune of like 40k for some of them...:o

[cols110]

Will be interested to hear how you get on.

A 9777 is on my shopping list next year.

[towe0609]

Well after much stuffing around, I finally dropped Jaffa into the Auto Elec today to have a Red Dot 6100 fitted. He is indicating that sorting out the 'idle up' will not be possible, unless I can provide him with details of how to achieve it.


There is an input for A/C compressor load, not sure what ECU pin it is, but RAVE should show you. All you need to do is link signal in from A/C compressor feed to allow idle up when compressor is engaged, and activate 'A/C fitted' in the ECU settings. JC

Is there any chance someone can help me explain to him how to do this. I've had a look in RAVE (see extract below) but I can't work it out. So based on Justins advice, I need to know

1. What is the ECU input that tells it the compressor is on?

2. How do I tell the ECU that AC is fitted so that when the compressor is on, the ECU manages the engine accordingly (ie. idle up when AC on and whatever else it does).

RAVE "The ECM receives 2 inputs from the air conditioning system. The trinary switch (C0279-3) provides an input to the ECM (C0658-9) on a black/slate then yellow/slate wire. This input is the aircon clutch request. If granted the ECM provides an earth for the compressor clutch relay. Current can now flow from fuse 10 of the passenger compartment fuse box, across the energised compressor clutch relay (C1268-30 & C1268-87) and supply a feed to the compressor clutch (C0182-1) on a black/green wire. The compressor clutch is earthed (C0182-2) on a black wire.

The second input to the ECM (C0658-23) is the fan request from the air conditioning unit (C1273-1) on a white/black then purple/black wire. This causes the ECM (C0658-4) to earth the cooling fan relay (C0019-86) on a black/purple wire. Current can now flow from fuse 10 of the passenger compartment fuse box, across the energised cooling fan relay (C0019-30 & C0019-87) and supply a feed to the condenser fan (C0280-1) on a black/brown wire. The fan is earthed (C0280-2) on a black wire.

With the ignition switch in position -II-, the main relay (C0063-87) in the engine bay fuse box is energised and provides a feed to the compressor clutch relay (C1268-85) on a brown/orange wire. The earth path for the compressor clutch relay (C1268-86) is controlled by the ECM (C0658-29) on a black/slate wire. "

So I'm thinking the Red Dot Unit will have a feed that would normally go to the compressor clutch. This should be redirected to the air-con clutch request in the ECU ie. Pin 9 - hopefully this can be picked up via the black/slate or yellow/slate wire in the connector inside the fuse box. The compressor clutch relay should get its positive from the main relay in the engine bay controlled by the ignition switch, and then the earth of the compressor clutch via pin 29 on the ECU which I should also be able to pick up in the brown connector inside the fuse box.

Have I got this right?

Please please please help.

Tim

Below is a picture of the AC electrics - but I don't really know how to 'read' this. I do note that it shows the ECU and there are some numbers - perhaps representing the ECU pins? This may help someone with the right skills???

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/36270d1306488546-new-130-owner-need-air-con-ac-electrics-2.jpg

[towe0609]

No longer needed, post above edited.

[justinc]

Sorry haven't been around much, so all sorted then?

JC

[towe0609]

Thanks for following up Justin.

This is the advice I've provided to the auto elec (below). I'm still not sure it is right, but was the best I could figure out.

The "AC on" feed from the Red Dot 6100 can go into Cavity 3 of the brown connector in the fuse compartment in front of the gear lever, this will tell the ECM the AC is on. The ECM will then provide an earth for the Compressor Clutch relay (if present). The only thing I'm not sure about is where the feed from the compressor clutch relay emerges in the engine bay, and I haven't been able to find a picture of the connector that the original engine bay AC harness connects in to. Hopefully you'll be able to poke around using the section of the 'harness installation' section (from point 5) of the instructions previously supplied.

The outcome we are seeking it a feed from Cavity 87 of the compressor
clutch relay to the Cavity 1 on the compressor connector. Cavity 2 will
need to be earthed.

Hopefully that will be all the ECM needs to manage the engine
appropriately when the AC is on (ie. idle up)

Confirmation of this as 'good advice' would be appreciated, as well as any advice on locating the feed from the compressor clutch relay in the engine bay.

[towe0609]

See thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/130351-air-con-red-dot-6100-1999-td5-130-dual-cab.html) for final details of installation