Objectively - which is best? Stage 1 vs County vs Defender

[VladTepes]

Now I don’t want this to be an emotional argument, but please give a reasoned answer.

Series 3: Stage One
County – Isuzu Diesel
Defender 200 / 300Tdi

We’ll forget about the really expensive newer ones.

Did I forget any?
I'm only thinking of diesels, for ease of comparison.

"Best" can be whatever you think ity means.
Whether or not used as a daily driver, but it must be good offroad (yes I know they all are).

If you were in the market for an old good nick car which would you choose and WHY?

[incisor]

you need to define "best" for what use...

[Tote]

As a toy with which to play on weekends.......
Isuzu County gives the benefits of coils and the power of the Isuzu engine
TDI more economical but does not have the "aura" of the Isuzu and not much difference elsewhere
Stage 3 has leaf springs and is older

Regards,
Tote

[one_iota]

Did I forget any?

The County also came with the 3.5 V8

[VladTepes]

OK see original post for clarification.

[Tikirocker]

The County also came with the 3.5 V8

+1 ...

Simon

[one_iota]

OK see original post for clarification:

I'm only thinking of diesels, for ease of comparison



You'll need to scrub the Series 3 Stage 1 because it had the V8 only.

[justinc]

I voted Isuzu County. Simple, strong (In 4 spd guise, up to 1986) frugal and VERY reliable. What more could anyone honestly need/ want from a work horse and tourer?
The ONLY issue if you are looking to buy one now is they are getting very long in the tooth, and some are quite rusty. I am making one, after finding a rust free 1985 shell.

JC

[justinc]

You'll need to scrub the Series 3 Stage 1 because it had the V8 only.

Isuzu were fitted to these too.

JC

[isuzutoo-eh]

Defenders are 90% County, 10% Discovery.
Stage 1s are 90% Series 3, 10% County.
Counties are 100% Awesome.

For a tourer, a tdi Defender, as the body/chassis/interior will be a few years newer and not rattled to death and be a little less noisy around town as well. You can have A/C and vents from stock too. Also, the option of the 130 is a bonus to the tourer.
For weekend warriors, the County with either factory engine, as it has the reputedly the strongest drivetrain, PAS, coils, thicker body panels, and are often cheaper than Defenders to purchase.
Kept stock, a Stage 1 would be hardest to live with (as a daily driver) I guess, leaf springs, no power assisted steering, NVH levels highest. But bushability factor would be very high.
For towing, the Isuzu County if tweaked/turboed.

[Dave_S]

I've owned all 3 and prefer the Isuzu County. It's even better when turbocharged.

I really like them all and it's hard to pick one on some levels - they all have their strengths. Happy to discuss with you at the next club meeting. :D

[JDNSW]

The problem with any comparison such as this is to decide what criteria you use to define "best".

The way i have looked at it is that the Isuzu engine was fitted to both the County and the Stage 1 Series 3. So there is no engine difference.

From an operational point of view, the coils have it all over the leaf springs, with a better ride and better articulation, and better axle location and torque reaction. The only drawback is that the shockers have to work harder with coils, and the steering geometry is a bit compromised.

As far as driveability goes, all County trim 110s had power steering (not fitted to all 110s) and this was not available on the Stage 1. Turning circle is better on the 110 as well, mainly because of the wider track. Drive train is the same on both.

So I conclude that by any measure, the County beats the Stage 1.

Now consider County vs Defender Tdi. Here the result is less clearcut, partly because they are very similar designs. The main difference is the engine. Here the Tdi engine has the advantages of being both lighter and more powerful. As against this the Isuzu is more durable and has perhaps better low down torque, plus no turbo lag.

I can't come to any definite conclusion based on the engine, so let's look at other differences. models from 1987 on had thicker doors, which probably rattle less, but lose elbow room. Perhaps more important is that later Defenders used weaker CV joints. Looking at gearboxes - early Countys used the almost indestructible LT95, but only four speeds. The other key difference is drum vs disc rear brakes fitted from about 1992. Discs are superior,but the difference is not all that significant.

All in all, I find little to choose between the County and Tdi Defender, but picked the County because that is what I have.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The problem with any comparison such as this is to decide what criteria you use to define "best".<snip>I bet Toyota owners could use this against "Land Rover's" The Best 4X4XFar or Best 4X4X40 years marketing device. :p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The County also came with the 3.5 V8Yes it did but is there any comparison with the Isuzu County or is the V8 County just one of the also rans?

[VladTepes]

A couple of thorough discussisons there thanks.

Basd on the evidence to dat>

1. I won't be selling a Defender to get a County
2 If I had neither and was after something in a 110 wheelbase I'd probably get a County.

Hmm County 130 now there's a thought !

[BigJon]

I wouldn't have any of them as a daily driver, having said that, for my money it would be an Isuzu County with turbo and rear disc brakes.

[one_iota]

Yes it did but is there any comparison with the Isuzu County or is the V8 County just one of the also rans?

:)

My post was merely an early clarification.

So I think I'll leave your question for the V8 County owners to argue the case.

I'm staying well out of the voting on this one..I'm happy with my also ran and have no desire to travel further back in time than I have already. ;)

[isuzurover]

My 2c.

A County is basically a more refined Stage 1 (i.e with PAS, Coils, Wind up windows, better seats and interior, 14 extra BHP, 5 spd option, etc, etc).

So no contest - County beats a defender - the basics are the same, but the county is much more comfortable, more refined, and easier to drive.

A 300tdi defender comes with rear discs (most 200's not), and is newer so generally in a bit better condition, and is slightly more economical. But on the downside: thinner panels (dents more easily), matchsticks for rear trailing arms, less reliable/long lived motor, a rubber band where there should be steel (timing gears). The 200 also has the LT77 box (enough said).

So my order of preference would be:

3.9D county w turbo and disc conversion
200tdi 110 w disc conversion AND R380 conversion
3.9D county (stock)
200tdi 110 (stock)
300tdi 110
.
.
.
.
.
.
3.9D Stage 1

[Bigbjorn]

The County has the better CV joints, and the Salisbury rear diff. Mine was already converted to 4 wheel discs and is a brilliant stopper. I reckon the 5 speed box really makes it as a long legged tourer. The Isuzu returns up to 30 mpg.

Could do with more foot and leg room, better seats, and the damned handbrake moved out of the foot well.

[isuzurover]

The County has ... the Salisbury rear diff.

Put your glasses on Brian ;) . 200/300tdi was specified - which all come with a sals.

[Bigbjorn]

But they don't have both the good CV's and the Salisbury.

[justinc]

But they don't have both the good CV's and the Salisbury.

Sorry Brian, 200Tdi Defenders with drum brake rear, up to early 1993, had the AEU2522 CVs etc like the County, infact were just Counties underneath without the real engine and gearbox:wasntme::p

Any 200Tdi Def with factory disc rear had the Defender Cv's and TR brg upper and lower swivel housings, vented front discs etc. Easy to pick by the thinner drive flanges and smaller rubber axle end caps.

JC

[kaa45]

County with turbo'd isuzu and truck 5sp box.
Doesn't need anything else.
Because it's indestructible....no alloy motors for me.
Never had an overheating problem with the isuzu

[Chucaro]

If there was a County rust free and with original 120000 km like my Defender 1995, then I would vote for the County.
I cannot find one County on that conditions, so my Defe is the best option.:)

[justinc]

If there was a County rust free and with original 120000 km like my Defender 1995, then I would vote for the County.
I cannot find one County on that conditions, so my Defe is the best option.:)

...I have found one Arthur:D, 190K but pretty sound! You'll have to come and take a squiz when you're down here !

JC

[Chucaro]

...I have found one Arthur:D, 190K but pretty sound! You'll have to come and take a squiz when you're down here !

JC

I will be there and as soon as Paul see me he will have a hearth attack :D

[Tikirocker]

If there was a County rust free and with original 120000 km like my Defender 1995, then I would vote for the County.
I cannot find one County on that conditions, so my Defe is the best option.:)


I've got one ... fully gal chassis, no rust in firewall or door pillars. :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1323.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/314.jpg

Simon.

[jerryd]

Looking good for the "County" so far :)

It got my vote

[rijidij]

I own, or have owned, County 4.2V8 Stroker, County 3.9 Turbo Isuzu, Td5 Defender 110 Extreme and 300Tdi VNT 130.

My favorite, by far, is the Turbo Isuzu County.........easily the most pleasant and enjoyable to drive out of that lot. And believe it or not, it's the quietest of all of them too.

Cheers, Murray

[The ho har's]

...I have found one Arthur:D, 190K but pretty sound! You'll have to come and take a squiz when you're down here !

JC

We will beat him too it:p



I will be there and as soon as Paul see me he will have a hearth attack :D

Fender is a ferrari now with the upgrades so we will beat you;):D:p

[Blknight.aus]

county.

simple brick of an engine and box in the suzi varient, and will tolerate the most abuse of the lot. Not that much between a stage 1 3.9d and a county suzi on that front admittedly but then the county is that little bit newer and has the later suffixed box in it in the later years.

That said.

in reality I'll take anything thats listed its only a minor change in driver technique and in stock form theres not that much between them.

[PAT303]

A Tdi in good condition can take anything Oz can throw at it,I know that for a fact because mines done it.The Isuzu is a good engine but it's not better than a Tdi,they are totally different but niether is better than the other.Thats my opinion. Pat

[wagoo]

Standard unmodified ? County 4spd with with the external roof ribs.
Stage 1s are crap offroad, too much front axle tramp, lousy ariculation and turning circle,heavy yet low geared wooly feeling steering,awful brakes, particularly in reverse. County addressed all these issues. Defender 200 TDI would be next choice but would have to give the LT77 the flick. All later models are Pretenders that I don't rate at all.
Wagoo.

[justinc]

Standard unmodified ? County 4spd with with the external roof ribs.
Stage 1s are crap offroad, too much front axle tramp, lousy ariculation and turning circle,heavy yet low geared wooly feeling steering,awful brakes, particularly in reverse. County addressed all these issues. Defender 200 TDI would be next choice but would have to give the LT77 the flick. All later models are Pretenders that I don't rate at all.
Wagoo.

:eek: Thems fightin' words!!:eek:

JC

[blitz]

I would happily swap my disco for a County isuzu in a snap but with discs not drums

[PAT303]

:eek: Thems fightin' words!!:eek:

JC

Can you beat my Tdi Wagoo?,pretender hey,where have you been and what have you done?. Pat

[justinc]

Can you beat my Tdi Wagoo?,pretender hey,where have you been and what have you done?. Pat

....:eek:Like I said, Thems fightin' words:eek::eek:

JC

[Col.Coleman]

Can you beat my Tdi Wagoo?,pretender hey,where have you been and what have you done?. Pat

You might regret you asked that question:angel:

Just remember guys. When deciding what's best, it depends on your parameters you are looking for to suit the application.

I have a stage 1 Isuzu and it is rubbish. But it is great with 10 bodies on board, chillin at the beach.

I have a TD5 130 that is awesome for touring, but not so good as a rock crawler.

That's why I have 11 different landies. Not one is good for everything.

CC

[justinc]

You might regret you asked that question:angel:

Just remember guys. When deciding what's best, it depends on your parameters you are looking for to suit the application.

I have a stage 1 Isuzu and it is rubbish. But it is great with 10 bodies on board, chillin at the beach.

I have a TD5 130 that is awesome for touring, but not so good as a rock crawler.

That's why I have 11 different landies. Not one is good for everything.

CC

I'm pretty sure wagoo will have plenty to say, should make for interesting reading....:D

JC

[Bearman]

Like most who own an Isuzu county, I have voted this way. I will list a few reasons why I like this model.
1. The Isuzu engine..simple, robust, no electronics, longevity and almost zero maintenance required. Don't even need a battery once it's started.!
2. 4 speed LT95 box with TRB, HD centre diff, X brake and 6X6 clutch.
3. Military Disc brake rear Sals with Maxi locker.
4. Soon to be installed military RFSV front axle with Truetrac and Jmac axles.
5. Military galvanised chassis with military bullbar and HD pto winch.
6. Turbo installation - phenomenal improvement over NA engine.
7. Thicker body panels than Defender model.
8. Stronger CV's and drive flanges.
9. Stronger rear axle lower locating arms.
10.Original underbonnet aircon setup - not quite as effective but more leg and cabin room than Defender ones.
11.Mine is an ex bicentennial model dualcab which makes it much more suitable for my needs and the aircon works better by not having to cool the rear tub section.

There is probably more that I could list and some will say that the improvements I have done sway my decision and to a certain extent I guess they do. I have not owned a Stage 1 or Defender 200/300tdi but have driven them and consider the County in Isuzu form to be the pick of them - especially off road.

[PAT303]

I'm pretty sure wagoo will have plenty to say, should make for interesting reading....:D

JC

Lets hear it. Pat

[uninformed]

Can you beat my Tdi Wagoo?,pretender hey,where have you been and what have you done?. Pat

hahaha wrong person to call out Pat. While I do enjoy your contribution and experinces here, I believe Wagoo to be a bit more realistic shall we say with the LR marque....:angel:

And you know that I have/had a tdi...but would still vote for the Isuzu 110 county if all are in stock form. All have their pros and cons but the 110 County would seem the one with the least amount of issues to sort like disc brakes.

But if I could have anything in new stock form it would be a 77 2 door Range Rover...

[blitz]

oo oo oo
I want to get one of the army landies when they sell them off - SWMBO even agrees

do these count? I dont actually know which model they are but I will get one

[uninformed]

Good call Blitz, they are 3.9 Isuzu'd engined lt95 4 speed, sals rear, rover front. AEU2522 cv's, gal chassis.

Im not sure about difflocks, but I think the vehicles that do have them, they are borg warner. The Thomas pto which is/was an upgraded version of what they sold to civi's.

cheers,
Serg

[Disco44]

I owned a S3 stg 1 3.9D and all I could fault was the transfer box.It needed the upgrades that the latter boxes had.I put OME suspension on mine and it made a much better vehicle off road.

[PAT303]

hahaha wrong person to call out Pat. While I do enjoy your contribution and experinces here, I believe Wagoo to be a bit more realistic shall we say with the LR marque....:angel:

And you know that I have/had a tdi...but would still vote for the Isuzu 110 county if all are in stock form. All have their pros and cons but the 110 County would seem the one with the least amount of issues to sort like disc brakes.

But if I could have anything in new stock form it would be a 77 2 door Range Rover...

I know where your coming from serg but to say Tdi's or Td5's can't do what an Isuzu can do is taking it a bit too far.The county is a good machine but the world moves on,going by the rubbish around today it might not go where we want it to but thats the way it is. Pat

[PAT303]

Forgot to add that if I ever get a decent shed I'm going to retore a late 70's RRC,The best stock 4WD ever made. Pat

[uninformed]

oh I agree. My only beef with LR is the removal of things/material in places that have made it worse...they should have left well enough alone. With regards to the engine, the new tech is great....I just wish at a greater displacement.

[one_iota]

If you do the $ conversion a 1985 Isuzu County would cost at least $80,000 in today's terms and for all the very good reasons outlined in this thread.

Today you couldn't justify that price for such a "primitive" vehicle...Toyota are struggling with their version at that price.

The "pretenders" now can only be built to a lower price point.

[uninformed]

If you do the $ conversion a 1985 Isuzu County would cost at least $80,000 in today's terms and for all the very good reasons outlined in this thread.

Today you couldn't justify that price for such a "primitive" vehicle...Toyota are struggling with their version at that price.

The "pretenders" now can only be built to a lower price point.

in 1985, how much was a toyota landcruiser,Nissan patrol?...I dont think Toyota are struggling that much, I see lots of the new ones on the road here, and thats with the not so good reputation of the V8D

[Bearman]

I owned a S3 stg 1 3.9D and all I could fault was the transfer box.It needed the upgrades that the latter boxes had.I put OME suspension on mine and it made a much better vehicle off road.

That's a nice looking stage 1.

[lardy]

Its the dogs bollocks built for purpose and a tiny bit less sparse than the series landies that came prior to its birth.
Has a little more engine than the series n/a diesels but sticking a 200 tdi in a series 3 would probably achieve a similar end.
it is used by many armies of the world because it is tough enough and isn't pedestrian friendly ....important during times of civil unrest.
If I did not own a defender a series 3 would do it for me.
my boss had a county in the uk which he allowed me to drive down the cash and carry It seemed higher than my defender and the interior was definatley heading towards a nice car oreintation opposed to farmer giles's massey ferguson which my 130 is probably modeled upon

[rrturboD]

Tdi300 can run an Auto, and until you have driven an auto off road .. you have not lived!

[Blknight.aus]

Tdi300 can run an Auto, and until you have driven an auto off road .. you have not lived!

but untill you do you can stand proud wearing the pants and say. "I know how and choose to drive properly"

[Reads90]

Tdi300 can run an Auto, and until you have driven an auto off road .. you have not lived!

Not with a 300 tdi auto

They are gutless unless you put a 200 tdi auto box behind them. Other wise it is like driving a rubber band


Sent from my iPhone

[VladTepes]

and the difference between those boxes is what exactly ?

[Reads90]

and the difference between those boxes is what exactly ?

Gearing I thought that would have been obvious

[B92 8NW]

Gearing I thought that would have been obvious

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/57955-300tdi-disco.html#post759778


You never did get back to me:p:p

[Sprayman]

Has to be the Stage 1,the only reliable form of transport in Iraq in the early 1980s.Real desert burner,running on uncertain fuel kept on running where the Toymotos,Nissan and Chevvys all died.
A truly legendary Land Rover:):)

[isuzubob]

I picked the County because not only is it the best of the three, it's also the best stock LR ever made & sold for civilian use.

I would go so far as to say the "Best of the Best" is a 1984/85 model.


Proper door handles that don't jam up with fine dust or mud when it's wet
Exposed gal body cappings - longevity & distinctive
Pull up fuel filler for filling from jerry cans
Mil-grade 4 sp box - designed for 101 & shared with RR


And while the world moves on, these dumb, simple, indestructible LRs are easily modified & eminently upgradeable to current specs eg: rear discs, turbos, intercoolers, 255/85s etc, etc

Cheers,
Rob W

[DeeJay]

Most points have been covered but I've never "progressed" past the "85 Counties - I have 3, so I won't compare them to the Defender.

But comparing the County to the Stage 1, I used to own, I can say I would never "go back" to the Stage 1 because the County--

Is more comfy in the suspension
Stops much much better, especially with a full load.
Easier to steer
Faster
More economical ( both V8 & Diesel)
Much better forward vision & wiper efficiency.
Is better in the road handling Dept - but this could be due to the particular stage 1 I owned, it seemed to need more effort to drive.

[Landy Smurf]

tdi because it has turbo

[nicho]

was a toss up between the county and defender but defender works for me i'd love to have a 90 i just love the shortys. if it wasnt for all the cash ive spent on my disco thus far i would have one already. All good things come to those who wait.. taps fingers is it here yet

[Benny_IIA]

tdi because it has turbo


yep....

it gives lag down low..

and in the case of a tdi no power up top...:wasntme:



Written by an overpowered td5 owner:D