D4 with LLAMS height adjustor and MTR (19's)

[CSBrisie]

latest mods - note switch location for LLAMS (height adjustor); neat fit I think and saves losing a 12V in the console (other obvious spot).


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1621.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1345.jpg


New MTR's on RRS alloys - looking forward to using them in action - Victorian High Country over Xmas / New Year!


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1344.jpg

[Tombie]

Nice install

You have a tidy looking rig there..

[connock]

Very nice indeed !!!

connock

[Graeme]

I hadn't thought about mounting the switch there as that's where my driving light switch is located.

[101RRS]

Some Llams questions.

I have looked at the Llams website but still not sure of some aspects of its use. Understand that it allows you to drive around at offroad height without the 50kph speed restriction (dropping you back to highway height).

What I am not clear on, is the Llams use in extended offroad height and super extended offroad height. The website implies you can manually select extended offroad height but a speed restriction applies - is this the case? and is the speed still 50kph?

Secondly does Llams allow you to select super extended off road height? Like you can with the standard system (after the computer has taken you into extended height after being hung up and tc activating) by playing around with brakes etc.

Thanks

Garry

[Graeme]

Hi Garry,

The Llams unit is used to modify normal height and thus has no speed limitations imposed by the suspension system. As normal height is the baseline for all other heights, all other heights will be affected if the Llams unit is providing an adjusted normal height. If for example the LLams unit is set at +50mm, off-road height is also increased although not quite by the full 50mm, with off-road height about 90mm above normal height. The extra height provided by off-road mode will be cancelled above 50kph leaving only the Llams +50mm height. Another example is access height being approx 50mm lower than normal height but if Llams is set to -20mm at the same time then the vehicle will sit at about 70mm lower than normal, 20mm lower than the usual access height. Once moving, the vehicle will cancel access mode but cannot cancel the Llams adjusted normal height, so the vehicle will sit at 20mm below the usual height.

Graeme

Edit: Whilst extended mode can still be triggered, I would be wary about forcing super-extended mode in addition with even Llams +30mm as the vehicle will already be at least that high so use of that mode runs the risk of causing a suspension fault due to the shocks being fully-extended yet supposedly not. I understand that such a fault has occurred with shortened rods combined with extended or super-extended modes - it is just a fuction of reaching the limits of suspension travel regardless of how it is achieved.

[101RRS]

Thanks Graeme,

I am not sure I follow it all - but thanks

One thing from what you have said indicates that the normal 50mm lift (you actually said it is a little less) by the Llams will actually provide less lift than the Offroad lift setting of the standard system which is 54mm.

Thanks

Garry

[Graeme]

Hi Garry,
"50mm" is the same height that off-road height provides but as off-road height often doesn't reach the general specification of 55mm, I prefer to nominate a conservative measurement.

When Llams +50 and off-road mode are selected together, the total height increase is not quite double off-road height. I can only assume its caused by the different starting angle of the sensor arms that produces a non-linear height sensor signal. Llams +50 when in extended mode probably produces an even smaller height increase.

[sniegy]

StornowaySA,
Excellent Position for the Llams Unit Switch.
Thank-you heaps.;)

[CSBrisie]

all, my LLAMS was fitted on Friday to my D4, in Adelaide, by Sovereign Autos on Angas St. Geoff there owns a D3 and I highly recommend them, for all servicing. My brother is having his D3 fitted with LLAMS by Sovereign this week. They should know LLAMS back to front by weeks end!!

My only issue is I'm not getting heights as expected - only plus around 15-18mm at first setting and plus approx 33-35mm (rather than plus 30 and plus 50).

Graeme, any hints or is it just every vehicle is different??

But otherwise all is very good!!

[Graeme]

Hi StornawaySA,

There is nothing vehicle-specific other than a good calibration. It sounds as though the vehicle hadn't fully raised to off-road height during the calibration procedure, but perhaps normal height was in the upper tolerance range. Either way, smaller increments have been calculated. I suggest the procedure be re-done at a time when the compressor is cold. I wait until the compressor has stopped even though the off-road LED has gone out as mine often makes a small adjustment at that time. I've also found that if the compressor had to cool whilst raising, the final off-road height is well short of 50mm so restart the calibration later. Level ground helps too so that the ecu doesn't make unnecessary compromises. You could measure the off-road height increase during the procedure and if not getting around 50mm lift then perhaps start again, trying for a lower normal height. Try starting to get to off-road height before returning to normal height, or raising from access height to see which results in the lowest normal height.

A test for a good calibration is to switch Llams from OFF to +50 whilst at off-road mode height then cancel off-road mode. The vehicle should not change height although it may start to lower (for about half a second) then raise again to where it was. This test is of no use if done at calibration time as it will most likely give the appearance of a good result. The setup (calibration) instructions are inside the lid of the module.

You could do with a switch that operates CCW so that the vehicle goes lower when the pointer is down and higher when up. Let me know if you'd like one. I think in most positions it doesn't matter in which direction the switch operates but where you have your switch, it seems more appropriate. Rather than have DPL stock 2 different switches, I'll just provide a CCW switch where it makes for a significant improvement and hope I don't have to make too many.

[Graeme]

all, my LLAMS was fitted on Friday to my D4, in Adelaide, by Sovereign Autos on Angas St. Geoff there owns a D3 and I highly recommend them, for all servicing. My brother is having his D3 fitted with LLAMS by Sovereign this week. They should know LLAMS back to front by weeks end!!
Workshops can purchase from DPL at a discount and therefore could be pressured to charge less for fitting, having already made some profit on the kit.

[Celtoid]

Sounds great and the truck looks great with those shoes on it.....but how does the suspension modification rest with LR and your warranty?

[Redback]

Is there a link to LLAMS, I can't find it using Google:( keeps coming up with LAMAS:o

[eddomak]

Is there a link to LLAMS, I can't find it using Google:( keeps coming up with LAMAS:o

Llams PTY LTD (http://www.llams.com.au/) <-- Click here


On your Google Search Results Page there is a sentence at the top of the page that says:

"Showing results for llama. Search instead for llams"


Click on the 2nd link and it will force the search for llams

[Redback]

Llams PTY LTD (http://www.llams.com.au/) <-- Click here


On your Google Search Results Page there is a sentence at the top of the page that says:

"Showing results for llama. Search instead for llams"


Click on the 2nd link and it will force the search for llams

Thanks for that, I thought I did that, maybe I didn't, anyway it's in favourites for when it's time to buy, gotta get the vehicle first:D

Baz.

[CSBrisie]

Sounds great and the truck looks great with those shoes on it.....but how does the suspension modification rest with LR and your warranty?


I think we all know that any modification , no matter how small, puts a warranty at risk. Thats a Buyer Beware issue - I'm comfortable with it. ;)
cheers!

[Graeme]

Is there a link to LLAMS, I can't find it using Google:( keeps coming up with LAMAS:o
Here's a link to my thread:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/114282-llams-electronic-height-controller-d3-d4-rrs.html

[Celtoid]

I think we all know that any modification , no matter how small, puts a warranty at risk. Thats a Buyer Beware issue - I'm comfortable with it. ;)
cheers!

Good on you, hopefully it won't be an issue anyway.

I think it's a great idea as I find the speed control bloody annoying when you get on a track that you can go pretty quickly on but have the risk of hitting rough spots. I'd prefer to concentrate on getting rid of some of the speed safely without having to screw around jacking the suspension back up at the same time. With your system, it's no issue. As you know the D4 eats up a lot of rough stuff, allowing you to travel quite quickly.

I look forward to reading how you go with the tyres. I think there is a lot of negative talk about the 19"ers and very little real evidence with regards to wear, soft surface pressure down performance and side-wall strength, etc.

The more people that run a bit of variety will let us all be better informed. I know I'm still unsure of what to buy once the originals are worn out.

Cheers,

Kev.

[CSBrisie]

The more people that run a bit of variety will let us all be better informed.


Totally agree. I'll give everyone a full update on how the 19inch rims and MTR's go post Vic High Country trip, which should give them a full workout. I've always held the view what is good enough for the G4 Challenge guys cant be too bad!

[Graeme]

I'd prefer to concentrate on getting rid of some of the speed safely without having to screw around jacking the suspension back up at the same time.
Whilst off-road mode cancels at 50kph, it cannot be selected if travelling faster than 35kph and even then the height change will not occur during significant deceleration. Often by the time you have slowed the vehicle to less than 35kph, found the raise switch without looking at it, are no longer braking and have waited for the vehicle to raise to off-road height, you are in the middle of that rough patch or hidden rough little creek crossing - too late! The extra suspension travel afforded by even +30mm greatly reduces the incidence of bashing the bump-stops, which apart from the improvement in occupant comfort, is going to improve the longevity of the vehicle. Repeated attempts to raise to off-road height soon results in the compressor having to cool. Its much better to travel those roads and tracks with a semi-permanent 30-50mm lift, which was the reason for developing the Llams unit.

[Basil135]

So, is this the same D4 that I saw yesterday, whilst we were both stuck in traffic on the hill by Adelaide Oval? :cool:

If so, then very nice car. Externally, the mods are subtle, and dont distract from the overall appearance at all.

[CSBrisie]

Ha! Yes, that was me! Small world - I did note the kitted out D2! Both cars look Significantly better than the Australian cricket team.......
cheers

[CSBrisie]

we are back from two weeks in the Vic High Country - LLAMS was brilliant!
Other 4wd's were agog at the "lift kit' we had!!!
Really REALLY impressive - if you are a serious off roader (read: like challenging 4wding in your D3 or 4 or RRS) and you dont buy this you are mad - it transforms the car and what it can do!!
Thanks Graeme - you have improved an already brilliant car !https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/691.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/1024.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/1040.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/1041.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/1042.jpg

[101RRS]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/691.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/1024.jpg




Whats that hanging off the front? A winch??

If so - details please or a link if it is already up.

Cheers

Garry

[mickyd24969]

And some report comments on the 19" MTRs - please!

[CSBrisie]

Yes, thats a Warn 9500XP winch with genuine LR winch kit (ex a dealer in the UK, shipped to my door). Fitted in Adelaide by Sovereign Autos. Not needed this trip :D

The tyres were fantastic. In Bright we learnt another Stornoway Grey D4 has been through (service station) week before with MTR's and had done all the tough tracks at 22psi so we copied him and had no issues whatsoever on all the rocky / muddy tracks and river crossings etc. No chips, issues at all. Perfect. I'm really pleased I went with this combination now - having a second set of rims is a bit of a luxury (2nd hand RRS rim sfrom Barbagallo Tyres in Perth, WA) but nice to have!

[Celtoid]

Apologies if this has been already covered in other posts (but the threads grow so quickly):

Do the MTRs fit in the space for the spare?

Cheers,

Kev.

[Dingmark Jim]

Yes, MTRs fit just fine in the spare compartment. I've had one there in both a D3 and D4 for years (not the same tyre).

[RichardK]

A couple of pics of my Llams installation

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/721.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/722.jpg

[AGRO]

Hi Richard,

Neat set up there on the D3.

I have the same phone - may I ask where you obtained the phone holder?

[RichardK]

Hi Agro,

The phone holder is a standard Nokia holder mounted on a poly block fixed to the handbrake lever cover

[foss]

Do you not need extended shocks after installing Llams? and doesnt it over pressurise the air suspension?

[Graeme]

In normal use Llams only gives manual control of some automatic height functions. A person in Italy did try the -20mm height at 190 kph to see what happens when the suspension lowers another 20mm at 160 kph - no need for shortened shocks!

[craigl]

with this unit fitted the way I understand this would make the vehicle unroadworthy and quite possibly not insured in the event of an accident.
As per information from the VicRoads web site. The below relates directly to performing roadworthy inspections.

To make sure a converted vehicle is safe to drive, complying systems
have a default setting with an interlock that maintains the
vehicle at a normal ride height when in motion.It is this interlock that needs to be checked when carrying out a roadworthy test as it is sometimes bypassed or missing on some systems and there is an override on others. The interlock should work automatically when the vehicle is mobile and not allow over-riding or manual control. The only exception to this may be a vehicle that has a high setting for covering extremely rough or rutted surfaces but this should only work at low speeds.
Note that the above requirements do not apply to OE systems which will be ADR approved and some do have manual over-rides for off road use.

[Graeme]

For off-road use only...
Unplug the switch from the module or replace the module with the supplied loop-back plug to de-activate it when on road.

[Tote]

with this unit fitted the way I understand this would make the vehicle unroadworthy and quite possibly not insured in the event of an accident.
As per information from the VicRoads web site. The below relates directly to performing roadworthy inspections.

To make sure a converted vehicle is safe to drive, complying systems
have a default setting with an interlock that maintains the
vehicle at a normal ride height when in motion.It is this interlock that needs to be checked when carrying out a roadworthy test as it is sometimes bypassed or missing on some systems and there is an override on others. The interlock should work automatically when the vehicle is mobile and not allow over-riding or manual control. The only exception to this may be a vehicle that has a high setting for covering extremely rough or rutted surfaces but this should only work at low speeds.
Note that the above requirements do not apply to OE systems which will be ADR approved and some do have manual over-rides for off road use.

Craigl, some more information such as a link would be useful. I've googled a couple of those sentences and they don't come up on the web. VSI8 which pertains to vehicle modifications makes no such mention of those paragraphs. It looks to me like the above is providing engineering advice on aftermarket airbag suspensions which is not what LLAMS is.
Brave first post........:eek:
Regards,
Tote

[Graeme]

It reminds me of rules regarding air replacement systems that allow lowering of the rear or of 1 side of a vehicle to facilitate loading, either of goods or for wheel-chair access. The vehicle must be returned to a level state and must be locked there before it can move.

I considered a request to make the Llams system able to lean a vehicle left or right at the driver's discretion. Apart from having to intercept another loom for one of the cross-link valves, I had no way of ensuring that the vehicle could be limited to extremely slow travel, as activation at speed could easily end in disaster. Hence I discarded that development.

[craigl]

Licensed vehicle testers - testing times : VicRoads (http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/LicensedVehicleTesters/LicensedVehicleTestersTestingTimes.htm)

please go to the current publication which is issue number 27, these publications come out almost monthly updating roadworthy testers of changes and clarifications on rwc testing.

[Tote]

"Aftermarket airbag suspension conversions where the original springs are replaced by air bags are becoming more common. The conversion can be safe and effective if done properly. Unfortunately the flexibility of the system can cause problems. The extremes of raising and lowering may be fine for posing but can make the vehicle unsafe when mobile."

Dosen't sound much like a Land Rover with LLAMS to me.

This does though.
"Note that the above requirements do not apply to OE systems which will be ADR approved and some do have manual over-rides for off road use."

Regards,
Tote

[craigl]

the manual over ride relates to factory fitted not an aftermarket, I would recommend if you think I am wrong then go for a 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinion, after all it is the roadworthness and insurance of your car, phone Vicroads, Land rover Australia to see if the have voided whatever remaining new car warranty there may be on the vehicles suspension and if they would recommend fitting this and last but not least an Automotive Engineer to see if this contravenes the ADR's for the vehicle, I am happy to be proved wrong if I am reading into this incorrectly.

[101RRS]

Craigl,

You are probably correct - certainly for Vic - and highlight some important issues for consideration. As far as insurance is concerned it would only be an issue if LLams or its operation was directly involved in incident.

The reality is that many of the things we do to our vehicles may not be strictly legal but we do them any - the obvious one is larger tyres on our vehicles. If I take a larger D3 tyre that just scraps in as far as being legal goes - it would be illegal on my RRS as the sport as standard uses a slightly lower profile tyre - yet the cars are basically the same.

I have just disabled the seatbelt gong on my car - that is also probably illegal as well.

Everyone will make their own decisions. For me a Llams is on the shopping list.

Garry

[Tote]

Craigl

I take your point that the LLAMs system MAY be considered by SOME authorities to contravene their registration codes. For anyone who modifies their vehicle from standard this has to always be considered. The link that you posted at the very least is intended to adress aftermarket airbag systems and the inclusion of the part about "showoff value" would seem to be aimed at street machines more so than 4wds. As far as warranty is concerned I would expect that this device would void warranty on the affected part only if it had damaged a component that it affects.
I have to question your motivation in posting on the forum though, 3 posts and only on this subject. Do you have a D3 that you are considering fitting / not fitting this device to?

Tote

[CaverD3]

LR Aust tried to force me to stop selling or even developing the air actuated system. :angel:
Land Rover have no legal position concerning aftermarket modifications as it is no longer their vehicle but can refuse a warranty claim if any modification causes a failure.
They quoted VSI 50 which was about to be enforced. It was meant to target doof doof boys with lowered suspension but caught up 4x4 modifiers as well. Pulled by the roads minister at the last minute.
Legality is up to the relevent authorities.
In NSW current code of practice is still <50mm/one third of suspesion travel for raised suspension. ADRs to look for would be headlight height and wheel alignment.
Both should be within spec. Those who have run D3s with permanently shortened rods have found no uneven wear of tyres when raised and Matzcar system raises by 30mm and is TUV approved.
Graham did you ask your engineer who is doing the brakes what you need to check?

[Graeme]

Graham did you ask your engineer who is doing the lights what you need to check?
Lights? Do you mean brakes?

As for Llams, I would very much prefer that LR not be asked for an official opinion because they will have no option but to respond in only one way...

[CaverD3]

Sorry Graham,
Just you were talking to an engineer about the brake mod. Which is what I should have said. :angel:
I'll edit it.

Not suggesting you ask LR. :eek: Nothing to do with them. :angel:

The headlights must be below a certain height when raised. Just one of the things checked when bigger springs are put on vehicles.

[Graeme]

I have and will only discuss the brake modification with the engineer. I have no desire to risk complicating matters.

[101RRS]

Ok - LLAMS ordered - should arrive tomorrow.

Have the installation instructions, identified a nice flat bitumen area to do the calibration, also identified where to put the controller - where Stornaway put his on the steering column. On a RRS the only other place is up on the overhead console near the interior light but that will mean making up/modifying the LLAMs harness and pulling the roof lining down a bit etc.

So - do I need anything else to do the installation?

Cheers

Garry

[101RRS]

Kit arrived a day early - very prompt delivery from Bruce Davis - very professional looking gear. However this is work on 101 week so fitment will have to wait until next week.

Garry

[Graeme]

So - do I need anything else to do the installation?

A Phillips head screwdriver, a small flat screwdriver and 10mm and 3mm drill bits to make the switch holes. Oh, and a bit of patience when removing the side kick panel and connectors from the ecu.

[rmp]

Ashes and I fitted one to my D3 last weekend. Pretty straightforwards. The panel under the steering wheel pulls out from the top, may need some force. The connectors are very tricky, take your time. Other than that all quite easy, no errors, calibration worked first time. And it's VERY cool!

[Ashes]

I recon you will be very happy with it. A well thought out piece of kit.

[wyperfield]

I just fitted the Llams height adjuster to my D3 today.
I was glad that I was able to downlaod the instructions with photos from this forum, as the instructions that came with the kit were pretty poor, just text with no pictures.

Here are the height settings after calbration. I thought there must have been some sort of error, so I did it a couple of times with similar results.
I did all the tests with no-one sitting in the vehicle on level ground.

1. With Llams set at -20mm and Access height selected
Front -19mm, Rear -22mm
This is about what I expected.

2. With Llams set at +50mm and Normal Road height selected
Front +36mm, Rear +38mm

3. With Llams set at +50mm and Off-Road Height Selected
Front +10mm, Rear +31mm

It seems that it does not get to 50mm height extension I expected in either normal or off-road settings. Anyone got any ideas on this? I've emailed Llams for an opinion but whould like to hear what others have found.

[Graeme]

I was glad that I was able to downlaod the instructions with photos from this forum, as the instructions that came with the kit were pretty poor, just text with no pictures.
The expectation was that the installation would only be done by persons familiar with removing the necessary covers, so listing the steps was all that was considered necessary. Indeed, I was urged to have the kits only fitted by workshops but thought that unnecessary. Even though less experienced people have been fitting the kits, very good detailed instructions have been produced by another member of this site so the original instructions have not been updated when perhaps they should have been.

Others will probably suggest the same resolution to the less than satisfactory height increase as I have already supplied by email. I hope you get better results soon.

[rmp]

It reminds me of rules regarding air replacement systems that allow lowering of the rear or of 1 side of a vehicle to facilitate loading, either of goods or for wheel-chair access. The vehicle must be returned to a level state and must be locked there before it can move.

I considered a request to make the Llams system able to lean a vehicle left or right at the driver's discretion. Apart from having to intercept another loom for one of the cross-link valves, I had no way of ensuring that the vehicle could be limited to extremely slow travel, as activation at speed could easily end in disaster. Hence I discarded that development.

There are systems that permit that for Jeeps. But I think that's overkill for a Disco.

[Dirty3]

I'm keen to install a Llams controller so I approached a respected Melbourne LR workshop (Not LR Aust.). Anyway, they will not install these as they claim that it is violation of Victorian modification laws. Maybe they just want to cover their backsides, but they also mentioned some new legislation coming out. Plus insurance worries etc. blah blah blah.

I understand their concerns but plenty of leaf spring/coil Nissans & Tojo's AND D2 Landrovers that have 2+ inch raised permanent suspension lifts. Are these also in violation? If that's the case then any of the off road suspension fitters/sellers are also in breach.

Anyone care to comment of=r in Melbourne and have the Llams fitted?

Cheers,
Neil.

[rmp]

I'm keen to install a Llams controller so I approached a respected Melbourne LR workshop (Not LR Aust.). Anyway, they will not install these as they claim that it is violation of Victorian modification laws. Maybe they just want to cover their backsides, but they also mentioned some new legislation coming out. Plus insurance worries etc. blah blah blah.

I understand their concerns but plenty of leaf spring/coil Nissans & Tojo's AND D2 Landrovers that have 2+ inch raised permanent suspension lifts. Are these also in violation? If that's the case then any of the off road suspension fitters/sellers are also in breach.

Anyone care to comment of=r in Melbourne and have the Llams fitted?

Cheers,
Neil.

If the shop in question cannot explain why they consider the LLAMS to be in breach, and provide justification to prove their case such as citing specific regulations then I'm not interested. If they can, then I'd love to know.

New legislation - always on the way. Worry about it when and if it arrives. Don't suppose they were in any way specific about that either.

Oddly enough many mechanics take too lax a view of mods - tyre diameters, rim offsets and more - so to have one go the other way is unusual.

In Victoria the rule is 1/3 suspension travel so in general a 2" lift for a 4WD is well within limits, and insurable which is a seperate, but related point.

[sniegy]

Dealer = "Section 17.1 Motor Traders Act"

[rmp]

Dealer = "Section 17.1 Motor Traders Act"

You've lost me on this one?

[sniegy]

A dealer is in breach of law if they modify the vehicle in "any way" from the manufacturers specification. And there are hefty fines to be dealt to the dealer. :(

[rmp]

A dealer is in breach of law if they modify the vehicle in "any way" from the manufacturers specification. And there are hefty fines to be dealt to the dealer. :(

OK got you now, thanks. I believe that's to do with trying to pass off a modified car as stock or something along those lines, more of a fraud thing than road safety regulations? Also the manufacturer would have a thing or two to say about any modifications, never mind the law. I know dealers sometimes struggle with selling modified 4WDs for certain industries because they have to use manufacturer-approved parts, not the aftermarket options.

A modification can still be carried out though as long as it complies with the regulations.

Then there's the warranty concern which is an ever-present issue with mods and seems to be very much dependent on the dealer and the person handling the claim.

[Owl]

I'm keen to install a Llams controller so I approached a respected Melbourne LR workshop (Not LR Aust.). Anyway, they will not install these as they claim that it is violation of Victorian modification laws.

Cheers,
Neil.

Mmmmm ......
I 'm guessing you may be using the same eastern suburbs workshop as I am! I got the same story.

I'm thinking I may have to fit the system myself.

[gghaggis]

There is the issue of allowing a change of height at speed, which is a somewhat grey area under the current rulings. The Maztker system gets around this by having a speed lockout, whereby a user-requested height change cannot be effected above a certain speed.

Cheers,

Gordon

Edit: I think however, that any company refusing to fit a LLAMS system or similar based on this interpretation of the ruling could be accused of severe hypocrisy, considering what passes for "legitimate" 4WD mods these days - how many 38" tyre'd 4'bys do you see on the road - how many of them have _really_ got engineers' certs?

[Graeme]

At least with Llams the driver knows that the vehicle is about to raise, compared with the standard D3/D4/RRS function of automatically raising from a LR promoted improved handling height to a lesser handling height at speeds just under 130 kph and not informing the driver that its about to happen! You know the rest of the story but LR have set the precedent.

[NomadicD3]

Hey guys, I gotta ask, why approach someone to fit the llams for you? With the detailed information you can get off this forum ,inclusive of photos, you can easily do it yourself. I now speak from experience as i have just completed the fit up today and it only takes 2 hours provided you read all the instructions carefully and prepare properly.
N.B. i'm not overly mechanically minded and hate electrical work due to the restricted work space:mad: { if you can't fix it with a hammer and welder it can't be fixed:p!!!!

[rmp]

There is the issue of allowing a change of height at speed, which is a somewhat grey area under the current rulings. The Maztker system gets around this by having a speed lockout, whereby a user-requested height change cannot be effected above a certain speed.

Cheers,

Gordon

Edit: I think however, that any company refusing to fit a LLAMS system or similar based on this interpretation of the ruling could be accused of severe hypocrisy, considering what passes for "legitimate" 4WD mods these days - how many 38" tyre'd 4'bys do you see on the road - how many of them have _really_ got engineers' certs?

Well exactly re your Edit. I can tell you very few although the tyre sizes are more like 33 to 35 and even 33 is out of limits in many cases.

The point re speed is interesting, but what do the regs actually say (agreed it's very grey), and already the factory system permits speed up to 50km/h at height. It also changes at 160 and 140. And Jeep/VW permit up top 70 in their offroad modes.

I still do not see any reason why LLAMS is not legal. Or rods for that matter.

[rmp]

In case anyone is interested in reading the actual Victorian law, here it is:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/CC48FC10-4D57-4F04-82E1-3BD72EF88340/0/VSI8.pdf

sections 5 and 6. Note the reference to 1/3 travel, NOT 50mm.

These VSIs are well behind the times with respect to height-adjustable suspension.

If you're worried about "any modification to the suspension" read it and see that it is concerned with physical mods. Then read Section 3.3. In the case of LLAMS it has no effect when you're not using it.

Yes, you could raise it to +50mm and drive fast, but then that's a permitted lift anyway, and what about manual difflocks which have no speed override? You can flick one of those in at any speed and good luck then.

If anyone has other regulations stating LLAMS or rods are illegal, post them up for Vic or other states.

[gghaggis]

I still do not see any reason why LLAMS is not legal. Or rods for that matter.

Neither do I - the only reason I can see for someone to refuse to fit them due to "legal" reasons is a poor interpretation of rules that no longer easily apply to the newer technologies out there, or a fear of playing with "new technology" they don't understand.

All these mods are relatively simple to fit, so as Nomadic3D says, do it yourself. There's no benefit in getting a shop to do it for you.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Dirty3]

Neither do I - the only reason I can see for someone to refuse to fit them due to "legal" reasons is a poor interpretation of rules that no longer easily apply to the newer technologies out there, or a fear of playing with "new technology" they don't understand.

I think it's an old latin term used in the legal fraternity .....and many others these days......it's called "Anus Protectus"!!!!

Me thinks I might fit it myself:cool:

[rmp]

We can do a mass fitting next time I get the D3 owners together. Ashes and I are old hands now :-)

I do think the D3/D4 needs more clearance than the factory offroad setting and rods/Llams are just the thing.

[Ashes]

I'm tempted to go for the GOE rods if they are as easy to adjust as the claims state. I'm not keen on a permanent lift and I don't go off road often enough to really warrant a llams install. I do like the look of the llams though:)

[sniegy]

Ashes,
Tha LLAMS kit is not a "Permanent" lift & can be dialled to 3 different offroad settings if/when required or just turned off & left at normal ride height.

If you chose the rods, then you will have remove/refit all the time when you again want normal ride height.

Go The LLAMS.;)

[rmp]

Yep Llams all the way. Second choice would be rods, specifically GoE as they are two way (I say this without having ever used them) and then single-position rods such as Johnson which I have and confirm are well made little units.

[AGRO]

Does LR void any claims for suspension components, CVs, EAS or anything vaguely related when these after market items are installed and used.

I presume physical evidence would exist when rods are fitted and removed (if only finger prints or tell tale very clean bits) and software mods must be evident if LR had to have a close look to ascertain acceptance of any warranty claim.

Has anybody had experience with LR with this or am I being a little parnoid? Or is that D3 owners out of warranty making good use of these seemingly great devices?

[rmp]

Warranty and mods. Much depends on the manufacturer, the dealer, and whoever is handling the claim so generalisations cannot be made. Any modification at all runs some risk of warranty knockback.

The result can vary from "well you modified the car therefore all bets are off for anything even remotely related" to "we'll honour the warranty but not that particular part". For example, if you had a conventional car and lifted it by 2" then the manufacturer wouldn't warrant the springs and dampers, and could (I've seen it) not warrant the CV joints on the basis they were now acting at angles they weren't designed for. Land Rover could make the same claim, but it would be more difficult in their case as a 2" lift puts the vehicle into Offroad Height and it is clearly designed to operate at that height offroad which will place significant stresses on the driveline.

Ultimately my view is that I need the mods for what I do, and I run the warranty risk.

If you think the situation is being handled unreasonably you can take the matter to court for a nominal fee. A friend has done that with Toyota and won quite convincingly over a warranty claim on a front diff, but he did have a good case.

[Ashes]

Ashes,
Tha LLAMS kit is not a "Permanent" lift & can be dialled to 3 different offroad settings if/when required or just turned off & left at normal ride height.

If you chose the rods, then you will have remove/refit all the time when you again want normal ride height.

Go The LLAMS.;)

Pete, I'm familiar with the LLAMS having been there for the install on rmp's car. A very good piece of kit. The GOE rods look pretty handy in that they appear easy to swap heights without having to remove the rods. Just not sure yet how easy they are to convert from normal to offroad height. The GOE rods are also much easier to sneak onto the car without SWMBO knowing;)

[RickO]

Hi All,

Now pardon my ignorance if this has already been covered elsewhere (I did check honest!), but I was wondering if anyone could advise if the Faultmate could also be used to adjust the 'normal' off road height to give additional height to the LLAMS or rods when just about to head off the beaten track?
i.e. to adjust the suspension settings to give more offroad height, and then used again once back on the tarmac to reinstate the factory settings for the drive home.

Obviously there's a few $$ difference between the Faultmate and the other options discussed, but the ability to do this (if it exists) in addition to the myriad of other benefits of the Faultmate would probably be sufficient to push me over the edge and take the plunge to order a Faultmate.

Any guidance welcomed!!

Thanks RickO

[RichardK]

I have both but haven't tried it, there is no need, the Llams gives the height with a twist of a knob, the rods need to be fitted in the case of GOE rods quite quikc and the Faultmate which I used prior to the Llams took a little longer than the rods.
If you are thinking of using the Llams as well as the Faultmate then why? all you do is raise the suspension to an extent where it would be impractical and risking damage on the blacktop and not necessary offroad as you have the LR system in conjunction with the Llams.

In my case I am totally happy with the Llams even though I also have a Faultmate.

[RickO]

Thanks RichardK,

I was only throwing the Faultmate into the mix as I do not presently have LLAMS, rods or a Faultmate and was trying to get the most bang for my buck.

Sure having to fire up the Faultmate and change the settings would be a bit of a pain in the ar$e, but as I said the ability to get the additional lift when required (I was thinking of getting either the rods or LLAMS) would probably be enough to make me purchase a Faultmate.

Thanks a mil,
RickO:D

[Graeme]

Does LR void any claims for suspension components, CVs, EAS or anything vaguely related when these after market items are installed and used.
I know of a D2 that had a warranty claim rejected because of a 2" lift. The DC joint in the front tailshaft let go (at 17K kms IIRC) and did extensive damage to the gearbox and exhaust system. This joint was a known design weak point (mine let go at 40K kms) but LR would not budge. Hence I would not tempt fate and leave non-standard rods or a Llams module or loom fitted when submitting a suspension system warranty claim.

Llams does not modify ecu values so there's nothing non-standard in the suspension ecu. However due to the modified sensor signals being PWM rather than pure analogue, with the vehicle not moving and even with Llams OFF, the signals waver just a little but enough to show-up on ecu diagnostic equipment as movement whereas unmodified signals are steady. The slightly unsteady height values could be incorrectly assumed to be faulty sensors by someone who does not know that Llams is fitted. I suggest that the loop-back plug be fitted in place of the module whenever the suspension ecu is going to be interrogated for faults. Tight tolerance mode operates properly and no suspension faults are recorded so the slight signal unsteadiness is obviously within acceptable limits.

[Graeme]

Sure having to fire up the Faultmate and change the settings would be a bit of a pain in the ar$e, but as I said the ability to get the additional lift when required (I was thinking of getting either the rods or LLAMS) would probably be enough to make me purchase a Faultmate.
Faultmate can only change settings by a maximum of 25 mm. Llams can be calibrated using access height instead of normal height as the "normal" height to theoretically obtain almost double the height change on any setting. However from the feedback I've received, Llams +50 (or rods) used with off-road height provides all the clearance required to clamber over huge boulders and any more lift would restrict suspension movement undesireably so calibrating for double height would be pointless.

Edit: food for thought...what to do about height when an ABS wheel sensor fails and the vehicle drops to and is limited to about access height (a special air suspension feature n/a on coilers!) - extra Llams height (but can't recalibrate), doubly-shorter rods, Llams and short rods together?

[roamer]

Hi Ashes
The GOE rods are easy to change\adjust, you just change holes,it takes longer to air down and pump up, you still have 3 height adjustments via the normal switch, they are all just 50mm higher than standard.
I carry the originals in case it needs to be serviced, don't know what you would say the switch and leds were for on LLAMS, if LR asked.
Cheers Ken

[RichardK]

Graeme is right, I forgot to mention that the most you can raise with the Faultmate is 25mm.

[gghaggis]

This has gone rather off-topic, so I'll start a new one with respect to emergency air kits. Apologies to the OP and the moderators.

Cheers,

Gordon

[CaverD3]

Agree and hopfully move the relevent posts on the subject. There has been a lot of good input.

[rmp]

Is done. Threads are free to roam off topic and there is no real issue with that.

All we ask is that each thread discusses a different topic, the FAQ be read, the forum searched and everyone is polite to everyone else!

[Nomad9]

Hi Graeme,
Where do people usually put the switch when installing in a RRS, mine is a 2007 TDV6 if that makes any difference. Thanks for any assistance rendered.

[Graeme]

I'm not familiar with the various RRS layouts other than to know they don't have the options that D3/4s do. I've seen a 2006 with the switch mounted to the left of the instrument cluster but don't think I'd put one there myself. Inside the ash-tray in the centre console of a MY10 RR Vogue seemed a good spot (for non-smokers only!) with the option of later removal without leaving an obvious hole but don't know if the RRS has something similar. Behind the lower steering wheel cover is always an option although no so accessible especially whilst driving.

[101RRS]

I have mine on the left lower steering column - adjust by feel but is still OK.

Garry

[drowell]

My LLAMS is on the left of the steering column and is fine by feel. I had some suspension fault alarms and Alto fixed it under wty withthe LLAMS jus left in 0mm mode. I've told them since that it's fitted and they don't seem to mind.

[The Fizz]

Searched EVERYWHERE and can't seem to find anyone discussing how long it takes to fit the LLAMS to a D4" with the switch on the steering column. Anyone done this themselves and can attest to the approx time. I'm mechanically minded and after reading the instructions online I am assuming 1-2 hours.

[Graeme]

2 hours should be more than ample. IIRC there are 3 screws holding the lower cover to the steering column, 1 in the centre towards the back for which a torch is useful.

I'll PM my phone number if you get stuck.

[rocket rod]

Fizz. I took a couple of hours to fit my LLAMS but a bit of that was trying to find the little clips that fling off when you remove a panel. Here's a pic of where I installed the switch on the steering column as others have mentioned here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/d3-d4-rrs/101819d1447228437-d4-coin-tray-removal-20151111_154854.jpg

I put the little red mode button on the headlight switch panel and not on the steering column because I put the steering column back together and then thought "what's this red button for".

[discojools]

Yes Graeme I would like to be reminded what the red button is for. My Llams switch and led are on the right hand side of the steering column cover. The red switch is somewhere under the dash. Removing steering column shroud is not difficult. Put the switch for my driving lights on the left hand side myself.

[Graeme]

Red button - primarily for extra low when Llams already on low setting or extra high (recovery mode) when Llams already on high setting, cancelled by momentarily switching to medium or high if was on low or to low if was on high.

[LRD414]

This summary came with mine.
103460

[Graeme]

Installation and usage information is included with each kit. If the kit has been installed by someone else then they should be handing over the instructions.

[DrOsteo]

Appologies if this has been covered but does installation af a llam affect your factory warranty in any way?

[Graeme]

LR could not be expected to provide warranty on an extra that they have not supplied. Therefore if a suspension fault exists then the Llams kit should be removed for 2 reasons - (1) to isolate the fault to either the vehicle or to the Llams kit and (2) to ensure that the correct fault diagnosis is achieved rather than simply blaming the Llams kit and not looking further.

The same logic could be applied to a dual battery system if a charging fault is occurring. Firstly disconnect the DBS so that service people are only dealing with genuine LR components.

[LandyAndy]

Greame.
Ever thought of discussing with manufacturers to get an "approved" accsesory status.
Im guessing they would want a fortune and a yet unborn child to let you in.
Andrew

[Grentarc]

Greame.
Ever thought of discussing with manufacturers to get an "approved" accsesory status.
Im guessing they would want a fortune and a yet unborn child to let you in.
Andrew

Well, I doubt the Jeep one could ever be approved as it would have to be designated as an "offroad only" accessory (due to suspension height ability at speed, therefore requiring safety tests at said heights etc) and apparently (according to current owners) Jeep warranty is void if the vehicle is used off road. :rolleyes: