BeCM waking up - dead battery

[glenhendry]

Hi folks

My BeCM continues to wake up all night long, despite my having disconnected the antenna on the in-car fob receiver. I have also disconnected my 433mhz door bell and house energy monitor. My neighbours do not have weather stations.

I watch that damned little light glow dimly on the Park gear indicator and go out after two minutes. Most of the time it comes back on within a few seconds, and sometimes after a minute or two. The upshot is that my battery is dead a lot, and then I have a lot of fun jump starting it and listening to the horn alarm going off and seeing the "Engine disabled" messages.

I want to beat the problem, but I suspect I will be up for the receiver upgrade? Can I line my garage with 329 layers of alfoil? :) Anyone else beaten this problem?

I should add that I am in Carindale in Brisbane, and I have tried leaving the car locked and unlocked, always in Park, but normally with the drivers windows down.

Glen

[adm333]

Is it parked dead level ???

If you are on a slope of any kind, the self levelling wake up will be part of your problem.

[glenhendry]

Is it parked dead level ???
Yep, the garage floor is flat concrete.

[adm333]

OK, fair enough. If I was paying more attention I would have realised you're parking in the garage, and that most likely it's level.

:angel:

[Hoges]

hmmm...actually it should not matter if the vehicle is on a slope as long as all 4 wheels are essentially in the same plane:eek: I park my P38 with 2 wheels (LHS) on the nature strip and 2 wheels in the gutter. Vehicle is about 10 deg slope towards the gutter...stays like that for 48 hrs and drops evenly about 1cm... however, if 3 wheels are on the road and 1 is on the nature strip the car will gradually sink because it's trying to get equal displacement i.e same "elbow angle" of each height sensor... if that makes sense.

Self levelling should not drain your battery ... something else is waking up the BECM and dragging a lot of juice.

do the following test to check battery condition:

RangeRovers.net • View topic - Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39296)

probably the best engineering test plan for P38 battery / charging system ever posted

good luck

[PaulP38a]

RangeRovers.net • View topic - Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39296)

probably the best engineering test plan for P38 battery / charging system ever posted

Indeed, very useful.

My vote goes to lining the garage with 50 rolls of aluminium foil... and an Armadillo helmet for the BeCM :p

just a thought... does the red light still come back on if you leave it neutral?

[adm333]

hmmm...actually it should not matter if the vehicle is on a slope as long as all 4 wheels are essentially in the same plane:eek:

Agreed, it shouldn't matter. Just wanted to deploy the old "process of elimination" P38 diagnostic technique.

:D

[bee utey]

Re staying awake, this was just linked to another P38 thread:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118610-engine-disabled.html

Meanwhile Jeffrey Upton came up with his own solution (he lives near Logan Airport in Boston and suffered this problem frequently). He disconnected the leads between the window RF antenna and the receiver. In this condition the remote still works fine as long as you are within a couple of feet of the vehicle, but the effect of external radio interference is eliminated! Andrew Walne came up with an even better idea -- installing a switch to control the RF receiver.


This is from this page:

Security and Alarm System Operation & Diagnosis on Range Rover 4.0/4.6/P38A (http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/becm/alarm.html)

[glenhendry]

do the following test to check battery condition:

RangeRovers.net • View topic - Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39296)
good luck

OK - did that. Here are my results:

after driving around all day batt = 12.8v
eng off full elec load for 30sec then measure battery = 12.58
no load charge at battery at idle 13.95
no load charge at battery at 2000rpm 14.00

full load at idle 13.65
full load at 2000 13.7

at alt no load idle 13.95
same at 2000

at alt full load idle 13.75
same at 2000 rpm 13.8

alt body to batt ngtv -0.06v at idle
at 2000 rpm same

vlt drop from batt ng to alt earth 0.02


I think the take home point is that my charging voltage is a little low, and secondly it doesnt get much higher at 2000rpm then it does at idle. Any electrical whizs got a take on it?

[RR P38]

Definitely agree with disconnecting the wireless key antenna.
Do your doors open on their own and all the lights come on? the wireless system is pretty dumb it picks up all sorts of interference.
I had a passenger lumbar button triggering without any input.
Check that when you pull the key out the ignition detects that it is out, try pushing the barrel in after you pull the key, the becm doesnt go to sleep if it thinks the key is still in.
Use your multi meter across the fuses under the drivers seat and you will find where the power is going.
Check drain at the battery with multi meter, should be about 0.035a when a sleep, usually takes 2-3 minutes to sleep fully.

[glenhendry]

As per the first post, I disconnected the receiver antenna first. It still happens.

Glossary: Sleep - small gear indicator light on transmission console extinguished.
Awake - that same small light - glowing dimly.

I did more testing tonight. She goes to sleep right on cue at exactly two minutes, the light is completely dark. Then every time, after between 6 seconds and 25 seconds, she wakes up and then interestingly, does NOT go back to sleep after an additional two minute wait.

The same situation occurs with windows up and windows down. In neutral and in park. With the receiver antenna connected or disconnected. As per in the OP, my wireless energy meter and doorbell are switched off.

Another piece of intell is that, I might be seeing things, but sometimes I think the light glows more dimly than other times. There seems to be three levels: full bright, when ignition is on, glowing dimly (but obviously) when doors are locked and its waiting to go to sleep, and then a more dim glow which is hard to see (but there) upon some awakening episodes.

[PaulP38a]

Does it only happen in your garage? If you park it outside does it still wake up after a few minutes? What about at work or some other distant location?

Thinking about what RR P38 has suggested... are all your key barrells well lubed?

Maybe remove the EAS Delay Timer one night as well... you know, the little black matchbox sized relay-looking thing under the passenger seat.

Cheers
Paul.

[Remy]

I never got around to looking at this rather bought a decent 1000 cold cranking amp battery and have never looked back but it might be worth a shot ;)

RangeRovers.net • View topic - EAS Troubleshooting Tips (http://rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7528&p=223091&hilit=eas+bypass+fusebox#p223091)

Cheers,
Remy

[DT-P38]

Funny that. I just got told recently my battery (an RACV replaced item) is 30% undersize at 650 CCA. It has gone OK for last 3 years with no real drama's that I am aware of... was thinking about using it as a dual battery for the other vehicle (lights and light fridge use) and getting an upgraded one for "the pig".

Anyone aware of the correct P38 CCA?

[Rupert Prior]

there was a bulletin from rover back in 97 or 98 recommending 1000 cca for all p38s in Australia. at the time i worked at ULR in Melbourne and we had trouble getting hold of units that would fit.

[Keithy P38]

Mine is well undersize then (only 650 CCA, and a genuine Land Rover item at that...)! It was fitted by the LR dealership that mine was serviced at in Melbourne by the previous owners!

Keithy

[glenhendry]

Mine from previous owner too, and its only 490! He has been using it for ages without problem. My RACQ guy said they were supposed to have 950s in them but good luck getting one.

[glenhendry]

After having alarm immobiliser problems (see this (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118610-engine-disabled.html#post1389429) thread) I took my 2000 HSE into a LR specialist - he didnt say a thing about my 490CCA battery, he just charged it up. I thought he would blame all the woes of the world on it. He didnt seem to care, or, if he did, he didnt care enough to say anything to me.

Worthy of note though: for people with battery/BECM weaking problems - something has caused my drivers door lock mechanism to crap out, and I have ready that low battery can accelerate its failure, but I dont know how.

I certainly makes sense in my case. Battery was flat 15 times over the last 2 months and I had to jump start it on each occasion.

Perhaps someone can articulate why that a 490CCA battery which is half as big as it should be and which is cranking/starting the engine easily is "too small". Surely cranking the donk is the biggest drain the battery can expect?

[Rupert Prior]

small batteries will work but they are working flat out and have no reserve power when they start to fail, a bigger battery has more capacity to soak up the highs and lows but still give a stable voltage.
the battery problem has been arround for ages and just keeps being made worse, with more and more demands for power. rover say that the problem on LM range rovers is so bad they have to be put on charge when they are in for any service. this is because a voltage below 12.6 will start causing systems to shut down (this is a 12V system remember).
other cars need stable voltages of around 12V to function properly which is possible with smaller batteries but everything must be in top condition and the battery fully charged, otherwise the starter will drag the voltage down to 10 and below (which rattles relays and gives Becms a headache).
the charging system is also being pushed over its limit and so does not keep the battery fully charged, the temperature of the battery is too high (you cannot fully charge a hot battery), the charge time from the alternator is often too short and the voltage is too low (especially for calcium type). this is all i can remember of a long lecture i got on a course at rover. there are some more articles about this online if you are interested.

[stig0000]

prity much all the new cars, say d3 on,, 12.4ish is a flat battery,

and wile cranking if the battery fails to keep the volts above 11.2 you got more problems

[daljames]

Replacing my battery leads made a massive difference my 4.6. Starting is super quick again and my cruise control works again and it had an LR expert stumped. Also, i have been reliably informed that BECMs built in 1999 (only) are of variable quality. They get a little forgetful. Your BECM if its original will have a part number beginning with A if it begins with Y check the build date.

[glenhendry]

small batteries will work but they are working flat out and have no reserve power when they start to fail, a bigger battery has more capacity to soak up the highs and lows but still give a stable voltage.
the battery problem have been arround for ages and just keeps being made worse, with more and more demands for power. rover say that the problem on LM range rovers is so bad they have to be put on charge when they are in for any service. this is because a voltage below 12.6 will start causing systems to shut down (this is a 12V system remember).
other cars need stable voltages of around 12V to function properly which is possible with smaller batteries but everything must be in top condition and the battery fully charged, otherwise the starter will drag the voltage down to 10 and below (which rattles relays and gives Becms a headache).
the charging system is also being pushed over its limit and so does not keep the battery fully charged, the temperature of the battery is too high (you cannot fully charge a hot battery), the charge time from the alternator is often too short and the voltage is too low (especially for calcium type). this is all i can remember of a long lecture i got on a course at rover. there are some more articles about this online if you are interested.

Awesome explanation, thanks Rupert. I am hereby convinced to go get myself a stonker.

This (http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/search/index.php/batteries/ID-154-1458) is the one that centruy battery website recommends.
I would have thought that this (http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/search/index.php/batteries/ID-24) one would be fine?

Any recent experience or thoughts?

[glenhendry]

I went and grabbed the recommended 950CCA battery (http://www.centurybatteries.com.au/search/index.php/batteries/ID-154-1458) and installed. I feel better already :)

I report here, that phoning around is worth it. Supercheap didnt have it but could get it in for $439. Autobarn didnt have stock but would get them for me for $319, ended up picking one up off the shelf in Battery World for $279. Not bad I reckon for such a big unit.

Key fob still doesnt work... :( But that is another thread topic (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118610-engine-disabled.html#post1389429).

[PaulP38a]

This thread made me check my battery... was pleased to find the current Hard Rangie (aka "Blue Thunder" - you'll know why if you've heard it running :D) has a 900CCA battery, and the new Hard Rangie (Black Label Edition until I think of something better) has a 950CCA battery.

One less thing to be concerned about :cool:

Cheers, Paul.

[33chinacars]

Decided to check my battery today. Only 730 CCA but so far working great

Gary

[glenhendry]

Does it only happen in your garage? If you park it outside does it still wake up after a few minutes? What about at work or some other distant location?
Paul.

I have now confirmed that it does fall alseep (and not wake) at work, and out the front on the road at my house. It only seems to be an insomniac in my garage.

I have disconnected all wireless things in the house that I can think of. The car is parked close to the house powerbox and two fridges in the garage, I am not sure if they are involved.

[LandyAndy]

Is a P38a Battery "PYHSICALLY" the same size as a D2 battery????(330mm wide x 220mm high x 170mm deep)
If so Caterpillar do a 1000CCA battery for around $190.Part no 175-4390. This battery has 10mm bolt terminals which I converted my D2 too,it is available with conventional lugs.
See Westrac or your state CAT parts seller.
Andrew

[bee utey]

I have now confirmed that it does fall alseep (and not wake) at work, and out the front on the road at my house. It only seems to be an insomniac in my garage.

I have disconnected all wireless things in the house that I can think of. The car is parked close to the house powerbox and two fridges in the garage, I am not sure if they are involved.

Well our fridge thermostat switching on will cause a distinct "pock" noise in our loungeroom FM radio so you could be on to something. Just like a mobile phone will cause noises in a landline phone or car radio.

[PaulP38a]

Unless those 2 fridges are both for beer and mixed spirirts they have no place in the garage ;)

I recommend you empty the contents of one beer fridge, a can/bottle at a time... I'm sure you'll find some willing volunteers here to assist with the scientific experiment. Switch it off for a couple of days and see if the car sleeps.

If that doesn't work, empty the contents of the second beer fridge using scientific method described previously with same or different assistants.

This scientific study should be performed regardless of the potential BeCM replacement discussed in your other thread.

If I could get the time to come up to Bris, I'd be a willing assistant :)

Cheers, Paul.

[glenhendry]

Unless those 2 fridges are both for beer and mixed spirirts they have no place in the garage ;)

I recommend you empty the contents of one beer fridge, a can/bottle at a time... I'm sure you'll find some willing volunteers here to assist with the scientific experiment. Switch it off for a couple of days and see if the car sleeps.If that doesn't work, empty the contents of the second beer fridge using scientific method described previously with same or different assistants.

This scientific study should be performed regardless of the potential BeCM replacement discussed in your other thread. If I could get the time to come up to Bris, I'd be a willing assistant :)

Cheers, Paul.
LOL.

The scientist in my has been awakened! :) In fact - OF COURSE the two fridges in the garage are full of beer. Food is strictly not allowed. The only thing in that garage is a Kluger, Ranger Stacey and beer. I even had to build a big shed upon Rangey's arrival to get the other crap out.

No luck though, I am afraid. Last night I unplugged the fridges and roller door motor/receiver and RR still woke up seconds after sleeping.

Although I dont have the money to burn, I think I should solve this problem by buying the new spec RF receiver. UNLESS - adm333 would be kind enough to pop around this weekend sometime and see if his RR will fall asleep in my garage after sipping the aforementioned beer for 2 mintues while waiting ;)

In fact, adm333 noticed the very high powered transmission lines which are 800m from my house. We wondered if that could be a source of the interference. They are 100kv IIRC.

[glenhendry]

More info on the RR not sleeping in my garage. I persevere because another may find the diagnostics useful in the future, and I would also like to understand this problem rather than just fix it.

I am quite sure that this problem is localised to my garage, and not connected to my recent "Immobiliser/suspect-BeCM (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118610-engine-disabled.html#post1393007)" problem or my recent

If I park the 2000 4.6 in the garage, the gear selector light comes on again about 25 seconds after going out. The same thing happens in my driveway or front yard or street front parking.

If it is parked on the other side of the street, it sleeps soundly. If parked at work or a friends, it sleeps soundly.

So, this morning I parked it in the garage, locked it, and then hit the mains to the house and also isolated the solar panels and inverter - all of which are very close to the car outside the garage. She still woke up. I think this means I can rule out my house as the source of the interference.

[bee utey]

Interesting! Maybe your next-door-neighbour has a sleazy Paj your P38 is having a talk to...

Or next door is a secret bikie fortress with funny electronic equipment. Sneak over and pull his main switch down too...

[Gullible]

There was a scare some 20 years ago in the UK about electromagnetic fields in houses that were generated by near by power lines and power boards, affecting kids development.

You could get a little box called a Field Mouse that you walk around your house and it measures the different levels of flux (someone with more electrical brains than me can fill in the right terminology).

Try to find an equivilant elector magnetic flux reader thingy and measure your garage and house. Both with the power on and off.

If I'm not mistaken your power board will still generate electric flux fields even when the power board is switched off. Something to do with the electricity just being there waiting for you.........

Be warned you may not like what you find.

[PhilipA]

Er, you don't have one of them new fangled weather stations by any chance.
The ones that have the temp sensor outside and relay the data to the home base inside.
They are notorious for causing 38As to wake up.
Regards Philip A

[glenhendry]

Er, you don't have one of them new fangled weather stations by any chance.
The ones that have the temp sensor outside and relay the data to the home base inside.
They are notorious for causing 38As to wake up.
Regards Philip A

No, and I have checked that the neighbours are weather station-less too. I am determined...

My friend has a spectrum analyser, and I was hopefull but it only had wifi frequencies which are WAY higher than 415/433.

[Hoges]

Disclaimer: I have only rudimentary knowledge of what my son cheerfully refers to as "queer trader" stuff... himself being categorised as "black hander" ...I'm sure there are others on this site familiar with this terminology;)

The 433MHz band appears to be a very busy place... and is used for all sorts of applications. However, the manner in which transmitting devices in this frequency range are modulated impacts on the extent to which they might cause interference (= sleepy interest?) to a dozing BECM:eek::p

Burgular alarms, wireless ethernet networks, doorbells, weather stations and baby monitors to name a few all operate in this band...according to their website, 10% of phone calls for assistance to B&D roller doors related to 433MHz interference issues...

Good luck with your investigation Sherlock;) a spectrum analyser and some detective work might just crack it!

[PhilipA]

How about remote control ceiling fans?
Regards Philip A

[Gullible]

It may not be a case of a steady frequency. It could be a blip across frequencies. Can you get a spectrum analyser that records over a couple of hours?

[Keithy P38]

I doubt it would be your solar panels and inverter - i've got a 2kW system on my roof too and both P38's never had an issue. The only time my Green one got the ****s was when parked near overhead power lines!

Cheers
Keithy

[bee utey]

Saw a set of four power meter plugs at Jaycar this morning, guess what, they communicate at 433 MHz :o. Claimed range of 30m. What else is there nattering away next door on this band?

[glenhendry]

Just to wrap up, after 7 days away with a new battery and a disconnected RF receiver, she started up first crank. So I am still not able to use my remote fob, which is annoying, but I can try to fix that in slow-time.

Additionally, after 7 days away, she was still sitting at a good height and had 700 kpa in the air tank after the valve block rebuild! Happy.

[glenhendry]

Nearly three months on and I am still using the physical key to lock and unlock the vehicle using the driver's door. This is annoying, but not as annoying as dead batteries and non-starts.

Disconnecting the RF receiver completely, is a fix for the battery drain issue (mine anyway), but with some loss of functionality that I regard as important.

[adm333]

We never got around to testing my car in your garage.

Let me know if you still want to do this

Dave

[glenhendry]

I sure do. Please see pm.

[glenhendry]

We never got around to testing my car in your garage.
Let me know if you still want to do this
Dave

News! Thanks to Dave for bringing his Rangey for testing purposes. Interestingly, his was not able to sleep in my garage or on my driveway either.

That means that my RF receiver and BeCM are not broken or overly sensitive and that there really is a problem with EM radiation - although I cannot find the source.

So I think my next best chance for success (so I can reconnect my RF receiver and use the remote keyfob again) is to buy one of those upgraded RF receivers. I would like to hear if anyone in Australia has used/bought one. I think US, UK and Australia use slightly different frequencies (433/315mhz?) so I am not sure if I can trust the receiver model numbers that we read about on RR.ne (http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/electrical/batdrain.html)t. I quote: "A partial official fix from Land Rover became available in 2004 from the UK dealer network whereby the stock RF receiver (Part # AFR1953) was superceded by a new one (YWY500010). Gunnar Arthursson reports that this receiver was less subject to interference, but did not completely cure the interference problem. Accordingly, it has since been superceded by an even newer design, part number YWY500170."

More good info (http://www.landywiki.co.uk/index.php'title=P38A_Keys_and_Security#RF_Receiver _Interference) on dealer info being incorrect in the paperwork and differing frequencies?

Advice appreciated!

[Junosi]

You could always turn your garage into a faraday cage by lining it with fine wire mesh - that'd stop them pesky signals from getting in, helpful for aliens too I hear :D

[PaulP38a]

You could always turn your garage into a faraday cage by lining it with fine wire mesh - that'd stop them pesky signals from getting in, helpful for aliens too I hear :D

So, my first reply to this thread still stands true... just needs a giant Armadillo hat... you thought I was joking :wasntme:

[PhilipA]

You could always wrap the car in aluminium wrap for a couple of nights with the receiver enabled to see if the problem is RF EMF.

Should only take one or two rolls, or maybe just cover the windows as the rest of the car would be a Faraday cage.
Pics mandatory.
Regards Philip A

[glenhendry]

I think I will skip the faraday cage, my wife hates it when I change the house for scientific experiments.

Can anyone confirm the part number for Australian RF receivers, and is there anyone who can supply one or know of a place other than a main dealer who could supply one?

[Hoges]

You could always wrap the car in aluminium wrap for a couple of nights with the receiver enabled to see if the problem is RF EMF.

Should only take one or two rolls, or maybe just cover the windows as the rest of the car would be a Faraday cage.
Pics mandatory.
Regards Philip A

or wrap just the RF receiver in foil...:angel::eek:

[996TURBO]

Guys, stop paying outrageous prices for batteries. Have a look at boat batteries. I found a 125ah and 1000CCA that has the same size as the OEM land rover battery for a ridiculous price : 110 euros. 4 years warranty and deep cycle.

[glenhendry]

The situation has finally been resolved. Completely. There are three thread that are related, I will finalise them all; here is the list:
- "fob handset sync (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/131973-fob-handset-sync-methods-no-remote-access-me.html#post1597224)"
- "Becm waking up (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118471-becm-waking-up-dead-battery.html)"
- "engine disabled (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/118610-engine-disabled.html)"

The solution ,as predicted by many who helped, was to buy the upgraded RF receiver (YWY500170). I got one from Island 4x4 for GBP141. It is very easy to install and requires no resync or setup.

Now the car is sleeping peacefully in the garage and on the street, with doors locked or unlocked. I am very relieved.

I think the main lesson here is that if your car is waking due to these errant signals, get it fixed (or remove rf receiver) before it drains your battery, thereby rattling and ruining your door locks, and confusing your becm into forgetting your fob codes. Better still, dont buy a house with 433mhz radiation around the place.

Sorry for the duplicate posts on these threads.

[rockstar]

Bet you slept like a baby that night!!

I am sure you now qualify for some sort of RR degree now!!

Good on you for persevering and hopefully now you can get on with enjoying one of the finest machines man has made (according to me anyway)!!

[glenhendry]

Even with the new RF receiver installed, I have been getting the car waking up all night long. I believe I have traced it to the ODB scanner bluetooth transmitter plugged into the ODBII port at passengers feet.

I used this excellent resource (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/attachments/range-rover-mark-ii-p38/23465d1375338837-updated-rf-receiver-ywy500170-solve-battery-drain-becm-wake-up.jpg) (RangeRovers.net Forum (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/attachments/range-rover-mark-ii-p38/23465d1375338837-updated-rf-receiver-ywy500170-solve-battery-drain-becm-wake-up.jpg)) to determine what items cause the BeCM to wake, and determined that many pins from the ODBII port could do it.

I use this ODB scanner (http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=GSSTBLUETOOTH) (PLX Kiwi Bluetooth | OBD2 OBDII Android (http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=GSSTBLUETOOTH)), which is excellent compared to the cheapies on ebay. I hook it up to my android smartphone over Bluetooth, running the Torque app. However, since I leave the scanner plugged in 24x7, it must be drawing on the ODB port occasionally and waking the BeCM.

I will now have to hook up a switch on the dash that interrupts power to the ODBII port so that I can turn it on (the port) only when using the Torque app. I often monitor the LTFTs and the O2 sensors as I am trying to fix a rich running condition (which I have narrowed down to either an underperforming fuel pump or a leaking inlet manifold gasket).

Edit: This is confirmed, the voltages are better in the mornings now with the diagnostic device disconnected. Better than a switch in the cabin, a relay off the ignition may be better to power the ODBII port, who needs to diagnose the Becm with the ignition off anyway?