Delay in power when accelerating from low speed

[games1]

Hi. Has anyone experienced a real delay in power when accelerating from a very low speed. I've been caught out several times when in the Flinders going around a hairpin while climbing a steep incline. Also has occurred several times when entering a major road. Very concerning. Dealer says no faults showing although thinks LR have had other comments and is investigating. LR4 30l not short of power just a real hesitation and delay in accelerating.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I have this on a daily basis. A complete dead spot lasting for nearly two seconds most often changing from 1st to second but will also happen in 1st. I have had the service department look at it multiple times and never once do they admit there is an issue even when it occurs in front of me while they are driving! Good luck.

[Jamo]

A possible reason is this: The gearbox on the D3/4 is a 'learning' one. If you have been driving sedately, then it assumes any one-off sudden flooring of the accelerator could be a mistake so it tries to ignore it.

I had this issue on my D3 and even, albeit to a smaller extent, after a re-map and the nullifying of the EGR system.

The Porsche on the other hand...:burnrubber::D.

[101RRS]

Having driven my RRS for a total of 1500km I have noticed this as well - just assumed it was the learning thingy in the gearbox as I have been driving sedately. I have found that (after owning it for four days) that flooring it rather than half flooring it makes all the difference.

Garry

[stig0000]

had a sport with this, but it was very very interminted and only the customer could get it to do it,

very long 3days later and talks with syd/UK, we played with shift stratagys with the gearbox and a new map with the ECM, with alot of downloading and testing we seemd to have fixed it,

tryed gbox adaptions and no go, so dont think that will stop it from taking off, the adaptions are so fine you hardly notice it,

[meteor]

You could try turning the DSC off. I've noticed what feels like heaps of lag when i put my foot down, but only when exiting a roundabout, sharp corner etc. It turns out the computer wont give you full throttle with a certain amount of steering lock on. It'll wait until the wheels are straight-ish, then put the throttle on, then the boost builds and then you go, a long time after you asked it to... If turning the DSC off does nothing (it wont get rid of it entirely because DSC is never fully off) or you get that delay with the wheels straight then its definitely worth looking into.

[Celtoid]

I get this in my D4 3.0L every now and then....I too put it down to the adaptive box.

I either flatten it or go Sport or Manual, if I'm in a 'need to take off fast' area.

[fatnold]

Had it with my V8 D3. It was the thing I hated most about it. And now I have it with my V8 D4. :mad:
(though no where near as bad)

[games1]

Thanks for the comments, at least I know I'm not alone. Just disconcerting when pulling out into traffic.

[GregMilner]

That's very interesting. I get this problem in my RRS 3.0L every time I exit one particular corner on the way to the office. Low speed, quite a sharp turn, and I have to boot it hard to get it to change down. I thought it was just some quirk of the otherwise-excellent gearbox in these cars.
Must read the manual some time:)

[MartyJB]

I have experienced this once too, just this last weekend. Likewise I just kept pushing harder on the accelerator and when it did go boy did it go. Got a bit of wheel squeel and all and was thumped by the wife for my erratic driving...

[gghaggis]

I've had this occasionally as well. I find it quicker to lift off the throttle for an instant and then re-apply. Less likely to shoot off into the distance too :eek:

Cheers,

Gordon

[bobzed57]

I have it on my D3. In the Touareg world we called it the lag of death. It seems to be a turbo diesel thing (although I didn't seem to experience it in the V10 :D).

I fixed the problem to a large extent by chipping my Touareg. Just got to convince her-indoors that we need a chip. In the meantime, it's sports mode.

Bob

[GregMilner]

It doesn't seem to make any difference to the lag at low speed takeoff. Mind you, when it does wind up on that second turbo at 2000 revs, it goes like stink. Which can be a bit disconcerting in itself....
Greg

[Graeme]

I find it quicker to lift off the throttle for an instant and then re-apply.
It works like the old carby pumps - needs a couple of jabs!

[101RRS]

It is a lot like when autos first were fitted to small engined cars - like morrises and 1000cc datsuns - you would floor it and nothing would happen until the revs built up a bit.

Keeping just a little power on coming into the roundabout or coming to red lights does help the problem in the RRS.

Garry

[Celtoid]

I hear what you are saying guys but the 3.0L in the D4 is supposed to spool in 500ms.....and we're talking 600nms to play with.....I'm thinking it's the auto "thinking", not the engine......

[GregMilner]

You're probably right about the 'thinking' gearbox. It's certainly not a lack of torque, mine's closer to 700nm since I had the ECU re-mapped in my 3.0L.

[Disco4SE]

You're probably right about the 'thinking' gearbox. It's certainly not a lack of torque, mine's closer to 700nm since I had the ECU re-mapped in my 3.0L.
Hi Greg,
Interested to know if you had the re-map done professionaly or did you somehow do it yourself?
Cheers, Craig

[ozscott]

There really can be no excuse for this. Full Stop. In modern tech to say its one of the computer systems, unless it can readily be fixed, is a cop out for LR. If the gearbox is thinking it aint thinking too well...If I were a smart box and was aware that someone had been driving sedately for 100 miles but then saw the throttle being floored would I think oh, he is a conservative driver, so he really didnt mean to mash the pedal...wait....wait...ohh he did mean it cause it still held down...(given me bloody strength cause by now he could have been cleaned up by that other vehicle bearing down on him...)...NO,,, I would think in a millisecond that FULL THROTTLE means just that. It does not matter whether the engine and gearbox are doing in terms of economy and reducing advance etc when the throttle is pressed to the floor it is very easy to have the engine and box respond with the full kahuna - ie max power and torque available including the quickest and best downshift and, for that matter, air conditioning compressor off. For God's sake this isnt rocket science, its basic programming and the consumer cannot be expected to swallow a 2 second delay in acceleration when its most required.

Now, if it is as I suspect, the downside to a turbo diesel, then thats a different thing, and you have to live with it...if you want full house acceleration when you mash the pedal under all circumstances buy a V8 petrol and pay the fuel bills cause I have driven a few modern TD's and they all suffer bad lag at some stage of the driving experience. Go and visit some of the pajero boards for example and see the complaints of lag...

Cheers

[101RRS]

In my limited experience the issue does not arise when you floor it, there is no delay and you take off - it is when partial throttle is used where max acceleration is not required.

Garry

[GregMilner]

Hi Greg,
Interested to know if you had the re-map done professionaly or did you somehow do it yourself?
Cheers, Craig

Craig I had it remapped by David Dye at 3MW in Perth, using a Superchips machine. He tells me that what they do is suck the software out, email it to a specialist shop in England where it's tweaked, then emailed back and pumped back into the car.
All done in a couple of hours, late in the afternoon to take into account the 8 hour time difference between London and Perth.
Go figure. I don't understand the technology, but I appreciate the difference it makes to the grunt. It's quite remarkable.

Still doesn't resolve the niggling annoyance of the lag at low speed acceleration though....it's only while negotiating a certain corner....
Greg

[Disco4SE]

Thanks Greg.
Do you find that you are using more fuel?
Did they supply you with new output figures?
Not something I am looking at doing straight away, but I always tend to play with my vehicles down the track.
Cheers, Craig

[GregMilner]

Craig I don't have the output figures with me but from memory, 207kw and about 670nm of torque.

If you go to the super chips website www.superchips.com.au I think they supply them there.

I had it done pretty much as soon as I bought the car so I didn't take much notice of fuel consumption. I get about 12 liters per hundred around town and about 8.5 on the highway but I never get bent out of shape about fuel use anyway, except in regard to range. In the overall scheme of things (think depreciation of $10,000 or more a year) it's pretty small potatoes.

Cheers, Greg

[Graeme]

think depreciation of $10,000 or more a year
My insurer dropped my 3.0 D4's value $12.5K.

[101RRS]

If you go to the super chips website www.superchips.com.au (http://www.superchips.com.au) I think they supply them there.

The superchips product seems to produce a bit less power and torque than other products - certainly on the 2.7 TDV6 (about 27kw vs 40kw)

Garry

[Bushwanderer]

My insurer dropped my 3.0 D4's value $12.5K.

Graeme,
I think that they have made an error. My 2005 D3 TDV6 is insured for $36k.

I'd check it out or change insurers,
Peter

[Graeme]

I was surprised they dropped it that much and then when I said it now has an $1800 bull-bar they asked if the amount was enough to cover that as well. Furthermore they didn't want to record that the bbar was fitted, only suggesting that I take a picture of it and keep receipts. A note was eventually added to the policy but no increase in insured value. I might drop into the local office and have a chat. With 36K it probably isn't worth much more but if I had to get a replacement used one it probably wouldn't have that many kms anyway.

[Celtoid]

There really can be no excuse for this. Full Stop. In modern tech to say its one of the computer systems, unless it can readily be fixed, is a cop out for LR. If the gearbox is thinking it aint thinking too well...If I were a smart box and was aware that someone had been driving sedately for 100 miles but then saw the throttle being floored would I think oh, he is a conservative driver, so he really didnt mean to mash the pedal...wait....wait...ohh he did mean it cause it still held down...(given me bloody strength cause by now he could have been cleaned up by that other vehicle bearing down on him...)...NO,,, I would think in a millisecond that FULL THROTTLE means just that. It does not matter whether the engine and gearbox are doing in terms of economy and reducing advance etc when the throttle is pressed to the floor it is very easy to have the engine and box respond with the full kahuna - ie max power and torque available including the quickest and best downshift and, for that matter, air conditioning compressor off. For God's sake this isnt rocket science, its basic programming and the consumer cannot be expected to swallow a 2 second delay in acceleration when its most required.

Now, if it is as I suspect, the downside to a turbo diesel, then thats a different thing, and you have to live with it...if you want full house acceleration when you mash the pedal under all circumstances buy a V8 petrol and pay the fuel bills cause I have driven a few modern TD's and they all suffer bad lag at some stage of the driving experience. Go and visit some of the pajero boards for example and see the complaints of lag...

Cheers

I can understand that in a single turbo 4 cylinder 4WD but not in a sequential twin turbo V6. On any given day, you can sit stationary and just nail it....the car goes like a rocket......but every now and then....it has this stupid delay.

And I think one of the other writers hit the nail on the head.....it's not when you fully hammer it, it tends to be when you want to take off quite quickly....not like the devil is chasing you.

I'd be interested to see if any V8 owners have the same problem....not that that would definately prove anything as their transmission may be 'managed' differently to the oiler.

I dunno....:confused:

[Mike_S]

My petrol V8's the same, well certainly similar.

It's to do with the gearbox more than the engine and to overcome it, I'll drive it in sport and select the gears myself, that way it's always ready to go. The actual feeling is like a large 'dead spot' in the middle of the pedal travel if you're just trundling along on a light throttle, then go to accelerate. Either that or say, coming up to a junction and the box isn't in the right gear if you suddenly apply the throttle, meaning there's a lag whilst it gets the right gear then gives it the beans.

Annoying, but I've got used to it and know when to use the box myself now.

[ozscott]

I can understand that in a single turbo 4 cylinder 4WD but not in a sequential twin turbo V6. On any given day, you can sit stationary and just nail it....the car goes like a rocket......but every now and then....it has this stupid delay.

And I think one of the other writers hit the nail on the head.....it's not when you fully hammer it, it tends to be when you want to take off quite quickly....not like the devil is chasing you.

I'd be interested to see if any V8 owners have the same problem....not that that would definately prove anything as their transmission may be 'managed' differently to the oiler.

I dunno....:confused:

You're right mate about tt,s. Thats the point to remove lag. But mike says above that it afflicts his v8 also so it's all crazy. Cheers

[Celtoid]

My petrol V8's the same, well certainly similar.

It's to do with the gearbox more than the engine and to overcome it, I'll drive it in sport and select the gears myself, that way it's always ready to go. The actual feeling is like a large 'dead spot' in the middle of the pedal travel if you're just trundling along on a light throttle, then go to accelerate. Either that or say, coming up to a junction and the box isn't in the right gear if you suddenly apply the throttle, meaning there's a lag whilst it gets the right gear then gives it the beans.

Annoying, but I've got used to it and know when to use the box myself now.


Oh well, good to see LR have been consistant on this one....LOL!!!

[johneyles]

Hi guys - I have recently joined the forum because I'm considering trading my 3l GU Patrol on a D4 (my wife doesn't like the TRUCK).
I took one for a test drive today and have to admit the D4 3.0 is a VERY impressive machine, EXCEPT for a 'no power' event in the middle of a sharp left hand turn. I entered the intersection on light throttle and when I attempted to accelerate out of the corner there was NO response for several seconds. Having read this thread I think that the DSC and perhaps the 'thinking gearbox' considered that I shouldn't apply more power until I unwound the amount of left hand steering lock. I hope this is a problem that can be overcome with experience - other wise I might keep the dumb Patrol (at least it doesn't try and second guess me).
John

[jonesy63]

I used to get annoyed about this when I first got my D3. I soon learned to change the behaviour of my right foot - and also move the gear lever to "sport" mode. If it is really bad, use manual mode. I seem to recall that the learning behaviour is for the first 500km after it is reset, and you are not meant to use sport in that time.

[roamer]

Adaptive ZF gear box,stops double guessing when it learn what you want to do, readapts again when towing, it just needs a good test drive without the salesman.
Cheers Ken

[Dirty3]

I too have noticed this lag. It must be the transmission. Reason for this is I get turbo lag, but this is not the same feeling.

Just this weekend I was playing around with the sport shift as I spent the weekend mostly in the bush, much of it in low range. I found shifting manually was so much more responsive when needed. In auto/drive, the gear selection going up steep inclines was too high so the vehicle slowed, then changed down to give traction and more power to get up the tracks. I even got the rear end to power out on a turn and actually got it into a controlled slide then accelerated out with heaps of wheel spin. Never had it do that before.
When I got back to main roads, the car reacted very much like a different car than normal as it was very fast on acceleration without lag. Just a push on the pedal gave instant response. This is not normally how it drives. I assume after a weekend of driving this way (manual shift) the adaptive gearbox, then took it that my driving style had changed and adapted accordingly.

Don't know if this is a good or bad thing.
Don't know if I am right in the explanation above but certainly what I have just observed.

[MartyJB]

When I know I need to take off quickly all I do it push it across into sport mode and then I don't have any problems. In sport mode you can even notice the down changes in the gearbox when you slow down and you actually even seem to get a little engine braking.
I don't bother changing manually - even though this is the first auto I've owned I've adapted very quickly and figure why bother considering this gearbox does everything so well without me interferring!

[Celtoid]

Hi guys - I have recently joined the forum because I'm considering trading my 3l GU Patrol on a D4 (my wife doesn't like the TRUCK).
I took one for a test drive today and have to admit the D4 3.0 is a VERY impressive machine, EXCEPT for a 'no power' event in the middle of a sharp left hand turn. I entered the intersection on light throttle and when I attempted to accelerate out of the corner there was NO response for several seconds. Having read this thread I think that the DSC and perhaps the 'thinking gearbox' considered that I shouldn't apply more power until I unwound the amount of left hand steering lock. I hope this is a problem that can be overcome with experience - other wise I might keep the dumb Patrol (at least it doesn't try and second guess me).
John


Hi Mate,

as stated in the previous threads there is no turbo lag in the 3.0L, it is the transmission. It is not a common occurance and once you get used to it, and think about it, a quick flick to Sports is all it takes to prevent it...in fact I don't even know how I overcome it in most cases 'cause it's become automatic...but I'm certain I just know it 'may' happen and adjust how I drive.

You'd be seriously robbing yourself if you let this stop you buying the car....:)

D4 to Patrol...sorry mate, no comparison.

Cheers,

Kev.

[rmp]

It's the auto, not the engine. It is slow to decide to change down at times, and where you may particuarly find a problem is roundabouts, where you slow down sharply on entry, then decide to go and the car is reluctant to hurtle off. The solution is either Sport or Command Shift mode, or even better change the driving style so you don't get into situations where you need sudden throttle application, which also pays fuel consumption dividends too. The slow-in, fast-out maxim works really well on road.

In the hopefully rare cases where do get caught out remember to floor it even if you don't need max power, and then lift as soon as the car takes off as opposed to simply apply the amount of throttle needed and hope. I don't see a need for permanent Sport mode, you'll just use extra fuel as it holds on to gears longer.

Around town the problem doesn't bother me at all, but it does offroad where the car is a shocker on steeper hills in Drive, let's say the auto is in perhaps 3rd and later it decides to change to second. It takes forever, and the momentum is largely lost, then a change and a surge of traction-losing power. This is why I recommend Command Shift be used for hill ascents rather than relying on the auto.

Another problem is on fast winding roads where the car can be slow to change down for a bend exit, but that's only really a problem if you're really hustling or if it's a very slow, uphill, tight road. If you are then Sport Mode helps, and ultimately Command Shift too which is even better and permits some use of engine braking.

Do not switch DSC off to solve the problem. It probably isn't causing an issue to begin with, as you'd need to be on a very slippery surface for it to kick in under straight-line acceleration. If you are fanging around corners and throttle is being retarted by DSC you'll know it because you'll hear it working and see the dash light. If you turn DSC off you're making the car less safe, simple as that as you remove a useful on-road safety net. In low range situations that's a different matter. DSC can also show up cornering errors, where non-DSC cars would simply slip a little and permit throttle to be applied DSC will (via CBC as well) electronically correct the line for you.

JohnEyles - in a stability control car (eg, DSC) if you apply power around a corner whilst holding or increasing lock the DSC will often kick in as the coomputer realises the accleration at that radius will very soon overwhelm the tyres' traction, and pre-empetively restrict power. The solution, as you noted, is to ensure that by the time you are applying power to exit the bend you are *unwinding* lock, even gently, doesn't have to be straight, but should be unwinding and to do that you typically need a slower entry where you get close to the apex so there's room to unwind and accelerate. This also helps with the classic problem of wandering over the white lines halfway around the corner due to a too-high entry speeds and then needing to wash off speed mid-corner...not a good idea. Being very smooth and gentle is also essential.

The solution is to take a better line through the corners, DSC in a Discovery is no barrier to rapid progress at all and I always have mine on unless I'm in low range or in raised-suspension situations.

If this sort of cornering technique interests anyone that I recommend a study of any racing techniques manual, and even better, BMW Driver Training which is not cheap but it is the best I've seen.

[gghaggis]

In the hopefully rare cases where do get caught out remember to floor it even if you don't need max power, and then lift as soon as the car takes off as opposed to simply apply the amount of throttle needed and hope.


Another solution (and one that doesn't catapult you through the windscreen) is when you feel the hesitation, lift OFF the accelerator and reapply. Also good for when this happens offroad.

Cheers,

Gordon

[rmp]

Another solution (and one that doesn't catapult you through the windscreen) is when you feel the hesitation, lift OFF the accelerator and reapply. Also good for when this happens offroad.

Cheers,

Gordon

which is why you need to be ready to lift, and I assume when the problem happens people would be in a situation where a bit of catapulting wouldn't go amiss!

By the way, this problem is by no means specific to the Discoverys or Land Rovers.