supercharging a diesel

[stig0000]

im supercharging a mates pootrol at the moment, its a NA 4.2 diesel,

everything is fitted up,, custom manifold and everything,, its all fitted up and works, last thing is the fine tuning of it, and we have come to a stop at the valve for the supercharger, its a eton M90 off a ecotec como v6,

we have tryed controlling it with vacuum but that is hard to control as its a strong constant pull, wev tryed a cable hooked up to the throtle and still no go,

its running a 12psi pully and its struggling to hit 8-9psi,

has anybody got any more idears about charging diesels,

[Rangier Rover]

Good luck with it;)

You may need to do the maths first I'd say.
The blower and pulley size must meet the CFM required at given revs.
That by pass valve on the M90 is not a wastegate. It is only designed to take the load of the blower wile on cruise to reduce drive effort hence better fuel economy. Also a very good way of super heating the intake air;)

Cant wait till Brian comes across this thread.:o He'll remind you how frustrating it can be setting these things up.:D

I wouldn't be running over 8psi with no intercooler on a pootrol:eek:

[stig0000]

yer well this is the kit that was made up,, i thort the same as its ment to be on 3.6l petrol motors???

iv seen alot of mates turbo them b4 but never supercharge, and were told the safe limit is the 14 mark, id love to get as much on this as wel can, iv looked at the coolers that sit under the blower, but its going to raise it 55mm, and we have allready had a hammer to the bonnet as the pully was touching,

[Rangier Rover]

If you want big boost an intercooler is a must. The roots style blower are a pain for heating the intake air. Just leave the bypass valve closed as wont have any effect on max power.
You may have to remote mount the M90 then run a front mount Air/Air intercooler. You would be lucky to get 14psi out of it on the 4.2... The M112 may do better there.

[isuzurover]

A 4.2 diesel flows a lot more air than a 3.6 petrol at the same revs. 8-9 psi on a 4.2D vs 12psi on a 3.6P with the same pulley sounds about right.

[Dougal]

Subscribing.:angel:

[stig0000]

yer,, well wev put a wastegate off a turbo on there so its closed, wev put a 2 core aloy rad in as well with 3 12' thermos;) as the last rad fell apart when we pulled it out,

now that its staying cool time to play fuel pumps,:(:(

after a few rd tests and tinkering the aultenator has now packed it in:mad::mad: gota high output winch one coming tomoz, glad im not paying:D:D

just playing with pootrols i just with landrover would look at how things should of been done:angel::wasntme:

[lambrover]

I think you need to find out at what RPM the blower achieves the 12psi at, you might find the td42 want rev hard enough to be able to produce 12 psi so would require a different pulley.

[Bigbjorn]

Good luck with it;)

You may need to do the maths first I'd say.
The blower and pulley size must meet the CFM required at given revs.
That by pass valve on the M90 is not a wastegate. It is only designed to take the load of the blower wile on cruise to reduce drive effort hence better fuel economy. Also a very good way of super heating the intake air;)

Cant wait till Brian comes across this thread.:o He'll remind you how frustrating it can be setting these things up.:D

I wouldn't be running over 8psi with no intercooler on a pootrol:eek:

Well, I have never had a look under the bonnet of a 4.2 Patrol. What sort of engine is it?

I know it is an in-line six, naturally aspirated.

These questions are relevant.

What sort of fuel system? Mechanical injection or electronic common rail?

How many ports in the head?

Big or small ports and valves?

Inlet manifold. Will it give even distribution of charge air? Most won't.

Exhaust manifold. Restrictive or free flowing?

Exhaust system. Restrictive or free flowing?

Does the fuel delivery system have the capacity to provide double the fuel supply to the cylinders? If you are proposing 14 psi boost then you will need this. Twice the air needs twice the fuel.

You don't just bung on the blower you found down the back of a shed and hope for the best.

Many people new to pressurised engines assume that charging an engine provides 100% volumetric efficiency. Wrong. Restriction is restriction whether under vacuum or under pressure. You need to do the same to valves, ports, manifolds with supercharging as you do when modifying an NA engine for high performance.

I don't think that blower mentioned is big enough. That is the first problem. Get one big enough then work your way through the list above. At least with a diesel you will not encounter the massive ignition and mixture problems encountered with a spark ignition engine when modifying to high manifold pressures.

[stig0000]

it has a custom/designed inlet manifold to hold the blower and fitted a 3' extracted system to it, we are about to play fuel pumps but have been held with other problems,

its a 4.2 so its macanical injected, the heads been ported and mached to the new inlet/out manifold/extractor, and a aftermarkit head gaskit/bolts

as this are very commen to be pumped 15+ psi with a turbo, the fuel pump sould be fine at previding fuel,

oh il put pics up to nite of the set up if enybody is intrested;)

[Dougal]

Does the fuel delivery system have the capacity to provide double the fuel supply to the cylinders? If you are proposing 14 psi boost then you will need this. Twice the air needs twice the fuel.

15psi with no intercooler will give you 60% more air density than NA.
You need perfect intercooling to get double the density with double the pressure, but perfect intercooling doesn't exist.

15psi with a good intercooler gives you about 80% more air.
20psi with a good intercooler is needed to double the air density over NA.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I was talking with a bloke about turboing my Isuzu and he mentioned supercharging may be better, so i'm reading this thread with interest.
He reckoned using the aircon condensor for a water/air intercooler would be the go.

[Dougal]

I was talking with a bloke about turboing my Isuzu and he mentioned supercharging may be better, so i'm reading this thread with interest.
He reckoned using the aircon condensor for a water/air intercooler would be the go.

If supercharging worked well on diesels, you'd be able to buy factory supercharged diesels. This thread is worth following, but for your Isuzu a turbo is the answer.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Thanks Dougal,
I knew there'd be a good reason supercharging isn't popular, I think my mate just wanted to tinker-he recently supercharged a daihatsu charade that he found at the rubbish tip:p

[justinc]

Don't go there, Supecharging a 4BD1 will produce quite a few other issues like torsional vibration destroying the blower, excessive intake noise, overdriving the unit due to 3200Rpm max available engine speed, thereby requiring all sorts of 'blow off valving ' etc etc etc.

As Dougal says, utilising the waste heat energy from a diesel with high speed expanding exhaust gasses to drive a turbine is wayyy more useful than driving a supercharger from the crank....

This goes for most diesels In my opinion.

Using a supercharger to provide instant boost etc prior to turbocharging would be worthwhile if you so desired, but personally a simple efficient turbo charger and intercooler works wonders for any compression ignition engine.

JC

[stig0000]

well, driving this in its erly stages puts a vnt to shame, yes i no top end it will loose out abit but its a 4wd, so low down pull is what were after,

plus god dose it sound good:D:Di wana put one on my td5:angel: just put it inplace of the idler pully, perfict size, :D

[justinc]

well, driving this in its erly stages puts a vnt to shame, yes i no top end it will loose out abit but its a 4wd, so low down pull is what were after,

plus god dose it sound good:D:Di wana put one on my td5:angel: just put it inplace of the idler pully, perfict size, :D

The Td42 will rev harder than a 4BD1, the engine is very smooth and therefore will be easy on the blower, but fuelling is paramount. You may require a lot more than you think, so watch the EGT's.

I was looking at a 1HZ with a Sprintex on it some years back, went quite well but had all sorts of overheating issues, had to run a very free flowing exhaust and back off the fuelling to reduce it. This in turn started to reduce the reasons it was fitted in the first place. IIRC the owner ended up fitting a turbo and intercooler (A Safari system I think) and never looked back.

Not saying it can't work, far from it but IMHO turbocharging a diesel makes more thermal/ engineering sense.

JC

[justinc]

well, driving this in its erly stages puts a vnt to shame, yes i no top end it will loose out abit but its a 4wd, so low down pull is what were after,

plus god dose it sound good:D:Di wana put one on my td5:angel: just put it inplace of the idler pully, perfict size, :D

Well, if you can persuade BAS to engineer a fuelling solution then why not run a supercharger AND the factory turbo???:twisted:

But then you'll just break every bit of the drivetrain....:p


JC

[ramblingboy42]

I wonder why GM were so successful with their supercharged diesel engines? Turbochargers were added to GMs but had to have different fuel pumps and porting to be successful.

[justinc]

I wonder why GM were so successful with their supercharged diesel engines? Turbochargers were added to GMs but had to have different fuel pumps and porting to be successful.

With the 2 stroke GM, the Supercharger was there to provide airflow/ scavenging effect. They won't run without one.

JC

[isuzurover]

I wonder why GM were so successful with their supercharged diesel engines? Turbochargers were added to GMs but had to have different fuel pumps and porting to be successful.

What JC said. A 2-stroke diesel with supercharger is like an NA 4-stroke diesel.

You will note that the high performance 2-strokes ran a turbo (plus the essential supercharger), rather than a 2nd supercharger.

[justinc]

What JC said. A 2-stroke diesel with supercharger is like an NA 4-stroke diesel.

You will note that the high performance 2-strokes ran a turbo (plus the essential supercharger), rather than a 2nd supercharger.

Got overtaken by a coach in WA once, a double beck 'BOVA' (AAT kings I think.) 6V92T and it was HAULING:eek: For those that don't know, 6V is a V6 config, 92 is 92 cubes /cyl, and the T is for Turbo. For a 'little' engine they sure make some torque. I was sure it wasn't much above 1500RPM when it blew past me:D:D:D

Wonder if they fitted the 8V92TA (A for aftercooled) to these??:twisted:

JC

[Dougal]

well, driving this in its erly stages puts a vnt to shame, yes i no top end it will loose out abit but its a 4wd, so low down pull is what were after,

plus god dose it sound good:D:Di wana put one on my td5:angel: just put it inplace of the idler pully, perfict size, :D

Does he have any plans to dyno it? I'd be interested in the shape of the resulting torque curve as well as measured boost and fuel consumption.

At 2000rpm with 12psi boost a 60% efficient supercharger will take 13.3kw of shaft power to run it.
That's a hit on not just power, but fuel economy.

It's no problem to make a turbo system that has all the boost you want from as low as you can use it. But I've found torsional vibration issues from trying to get too much boost too early. My Isuzu was putting boost from idle and would hit 20psi at 1400rpm. But I would need to at least double the weight of the flywheel to make all that torque usable at that rpm. From 1800rpm upwards it was smooth enough to use it all.

I've since fitted a bigger turbo, but haven't driven it much since due to a stuck speedo needle.:(

[big guy]

Our golf is super and turbo charged. Petrol but still.
Super charger pools up first and turbo cuts in where that leaves off.
Its a 1.4L motor.;)

[Dougal]

Our golf is super and turbo charged. Petrol but still.
Super charger pools up first and turbo cuts in where that leaves off.
Its a 1.4L motor.;)

The 1.4 TSI. Good way to get more torque from a smaller motor.

They have to use a twin charge setup because VNT turbos don't like the high exhaust temps of a petrol motor, they also have a wider rev range than diesels.

Superchargers appear to be a dying breed in production vehicles.

[big guy]

The 1.4 TSI. Good way to get more torque from a smaller motor.

They have to use a twin charge setup because VNT turbos don't like the high exhaust temps of a petrol motor, they also have a wider rev range than diesels.

Superchargers appear to be a dying breed in production vehicles.

We had the TSI for a week now and be happy to actually give it back.
We are getting our TDI back from a warranty fix.
The twin forced induction process under the hodd sounds too busy, like a beehive that had petrol poured over them.:eek:

[Disco_Balls]

With the 2 stroke GM, the Supercharger was there to provide airflow/ scavenging effect. They won't run without one.

JC

And God help you if the blower seal goes on one! Those GMs rev hard at the best of times, you'll know just how hard when they start sucking too much air!!

Gotta love the noise of the Ol GMs :)

[stig0000]

We had the TSI for a week now and be happy to actually give it back.
We are getting our TDI back from a warranty fix.
The twin forced induction process under the hodd sounds too busy, like a beehive that had petrol poured over them.:eek:


that is a big problem,, its just not going to work on a 1.4L engine,, id take the DSG 2L diesel anyday

[stig0000]

anyway,, back to it,, wev got a new bigger aultenator in and a 3 core aloy rad to help cool the engine down, were going to be getting a IC from mace engineering as they told us 12 psi will be fine with no ic, just if want more then that gota start looking at it, and when we told him at the end we wana be pumping 19 he said hell yer IC and bring it down as we need to inspect this beast:D:D

we are sorting out a dyno and a tune, and we are going to put my car on as well, see how the turbo gose agenst the supercharger:twisted: but i just wana see how mine gose realy:angel:

i cant remeber the name of the place but its in briz and they do most of the comp winch and speed trucks, so they sould be able to get the most out of it

[stig0000]

i forgot,, a sneek peak of it just after fitting it, alot of tidying up was needed after,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1297.jpg

wish i could open my bonnit and see one of them chillen on top of my engine:angel: on day

[big guy]

i forgot,, a sneek peak of it just after fitting it, alot of tidying up was needed after,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1297.jpg

wish i could open my bonnit and see one of them chillen on top of my engine:angel: on day

Good work mate and hope it works out.
Why not give it a clean so you can see what you are working with and don't get dirt everywhere.

The whine from the SC must be pretty cool though.:D

[stig0000]

Good work mate and hope it works out.
Why not give it a clean so you can see what you are working with and don't get dirt everywhere.

The whine from the SC must be pretty cool though.:D
what you tlaking about it is clean:D from what it was,

nar it dose look go,, and sound even better,:D:D every time we start it the nosie puts a simle on every ones faces:D so worth it

[Bigbjorn]

And God help you if the blower seal goes on one! Those GMs rev hard at the best of times, you'll know just how hard when they start sucking too much air!!

Gotta love the noise of the Ol GMs :)

Detroit two strokes don't rev harder than any other automotive diesel. They were factory governed at either 2100 or 1950 rpm. Some late 8V71N's were set at 2300. In fact they have better low speed torque than any of their competitors.

[Dougal]

that is a big problem,, its just not going to work on a 1.4L engine,, id take the DSG 2L diesel anyday

I've been looking for a manual 2L tdi. Problem is the only manual ones sold here were 4motion. It's rare to see one second hand and they're usually sold within days, sometimes hours of being advertised.

I drove a Seat Leon (golf with a different skin) powered by that 1.4 without the turbo or supercharger around the Czech Republic. For a 1.4 it was quite impressive, had no problems with the 135+ on the motorways there and used 7l/100km when driven at 130. I managed to make it use 8 litres for one stretch.

[Rangier Rover]

Good work mate and hope it works out.
Why not give it a clean so you can see what you are working with and don't get dirt everywhere.

The whine from the SC must be pretty cool though.:D
The Eaton superchargers don't whine like the old roots blowers. The rotors are angled, make the air displacement smother. I doubt he will even hear it on the 4.2.


i forgot,, a sneek peak of it just after fitting it, alot of tidying up was needed after,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1297.jpg

wish i could open my bonnit and see one of them chillen on top of my engine:angel: on day

Nice one, looks like its meant to be there.:D Even if it runs out of wind in the top end you should see some gain in low/mid range torque.

[stig0000]

The Eaton superchargers don't whine like the old roots blowers. The rotors are angled, make the air displacement smother. I doubt he will even hear it on the 4.2.



Nice one, looks like its meant to be there.:D Even if it runs out of wind in the top end you should see some gain in low/mid range torque.

yer mate it pulls up hill so well,, gota wate for the tune tho, oh trust me you can here this thing wine up:D:D

[stig0000]

the supercharger is off and on its way to bendigo, sold on ebay today i think it was, turbo set up is on next, a diesel supercharged we tryed but wasent much gain for alot of work:(, i can see a twin set up working well tho,, jsut use a big turbo to take up topend, but even more work and money so back to stage one,:angel: