Whats wrong with Puma rear diffs

[skoller]

I have had my rear diff replaced 3 times and it needs to be done again.A report has gone into LR from the dealer,so I await the reply.Two of the diffs didnt even last till I got home which is 50 k from the dealers.
Whats wrong with them ,are they special.Its not as if they have to design something new,they are on every vehicle in the world.

[Barra1]

P38 Diff which was also fitted to the late model TD5s.:(

My first diff lasted 8K's, the next was replaced at 60K's and finally at 100K's I had had enough:mad:

A Salisbury diff was sourced and fitted. End of story.:D:D:D

[Tikirocker]

I spoke to a Landy mechanic about this a few weeks back ... he was lamenting the horrid diffs in the late models and praising my rear Salisbury. I don't get why companies go backwards in the engineering stakes ... but then again I guess it creates a thriving parts industry if you do!

Simon.

[Blknight.aus]

typical crap "not the parent company so not going to hurt the name" standards of production.

It was produced and quality controlled by an american company, expect american quality control.

[TimNZ]

I'd be pushing them to replace the entire axle assembly, especially if you are having trouble with excessive wear on the axle splines and drive flanges, indicating the axle casing could be our of "true".

[justinc]

I have converted a few now to sals rear. Cheaper than repairing the original one a few times, and a direct bolt in but you will need to source the tailshaft to suit also. If you have a 110, with ABS etc, you will need an ABS compatible Sals, 1999 to 2002 Def.

JC

[jake]

G'day,

Reading the posts can someone tell me the symtons that trigger a problem with the Puma Diffs.

Jake

[justinc]

Pinion leaks, noises on and off the throttle, worst case broken crownwheel teeth. Did I mention pinion leaks???

The theory of fitting a lighter, 4 pinion differential is sound, its just a pity these diffs are so problematic.

The Sals is heavy, a plough, and overengineered, but at least it is reliable.

JC

[Blknight.aus]

^^ all a what he said.

[justinc]

Just to better answer the OP, the issue as I see it with these diffs is the crownwheel thickness, it is quite a bit thinner than the Rover differentials and thereby under heavy loads it will deflect away from the pinion, causing all the problems with eventual pinion bearing and tooth failures.
Pegging with be a solution, but why should we have to work on a 'new' differential???:(

Therein the Sals is the answer:)


JC

[wagoo]

I spoke to a Landy mechanic about this a few weeks back ... he was lamenting the horrid diffs in the late models and praising my rear Salisbury. I don't get why companies go backwards in the engineering stakes ... but then again I guess it creates a thriving parts industry if you do!

Simon.

An absolute disgrace !
As far as I can determin only LandRover goes backwards in the mechanical, and structural engineering stakes.The Puma diffs origins can be traced back to the first LandRover in 1948 and even earlier Rover cars. Except they fitted a 4 pinion carrier and shortened the distance between the pinion bearings,for a vehicle about double the weight and triple the torque of the originals.
The spiral bevel crownwheel and pinion design was pretty much obsolete in the 1940s, yet Land Rover are still using them 70 years later despite 62 years customer feedback and complaints due to thousands of diff and halfshaft failures all over the world.
Pretenders are marketed as heavy duty working 4wds in the same league as toyota Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols. Things are crook when a diff from the much lighter duty Toyota Hilux is used as strength upgrade when fitted LandRover axle housings!
Wagoo.

[garryseries3]

An absolute disgrace !
As far as I can determin only LandRover goes backwards in the mechanical, and structural engineering stakes.The Puma diffs origins can be traced back to the first LandRover in 1948 and even earlier Rover cars. Except they fitted a 4 pinion carrier and shortened the distance between the pinion bearings,for a vehicle about double the weight and triple the torque of the originals.
The spiral bevel crownwheel and pinion design was pretty much obsolete in the 1940s, yet Land Rover are still using them 70 years later despite 62 years customer feedback and complaints due to thousands of diff and halfshaft failures all over the world.
Pretenders are marketed as heavy duty working 4wds in the same league as toyota Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols. Things are crook when a diff from the much lighter duty Toyota Hilux is used as strength upgrade when fitted LandRover axle housings!
Wagoo.

Yep its an issue, nicely put Wagoo. Perhaps Tata will change this situation one can only live and hope, mean while I'll spend less and stick to my Tdi and put a late model isuzu motor and gearbox combination in it. Cost far less than buying an underengineered vehicle with compromised engineering standards.

[mark2]

Yep its an issue, nicely put Wagoo. Perhaps Tata will change this situation one can only live and hope, mean while I'll spend less and stick to my Tdi and put a late model isuzu motor and gearbox combination in it. Cost far less than buying an underengineered vehicle with compromised engineering standards.

Yes, as bizarre as it sounds, I wouldnt be surprised if Indian ownership/possible production results in quality improvements:eek:

Although based on the quality of some of the Indian made aftermarket parts I've been stupid enough to purchase, maybe not....

[JDNSW]

I wonder if it is an attempt to reduce mass (to compensate for changing panels to steel?).

More likely, rationalising to reduce the number of special parts for a low production vehicle.

As far as I am aware there are no operational reasons for replacing the salisbury, and I find it difficult to believe the cost is significantly different.

Another possibility is that the salisburys were bought in, and have become unavailable.

It needs to be remembered that the Defender is produced in vastly smaller numbers than its major competitors, and by a company which is not a major car manufacturer. This places many constraints on what can be done.

John

[cols110]

I have had my rear diff replaced 3 times and it needs to be done again.A report has gone into LR from the dealer,so I await the reply.Two of the diffs didnt even last till I got home which is 50 k from the dealers.
Whats wrong with them ,are they special.Its not as if they have to design something new,they are on every vehicle in the world.

Might be time to bite the bullet and fit an ARB or similar, they are much better than the std LR diffs.

I am lucky, I have a pre P38 TD5 110 rear which has the Salisbury, I then fitted a detroit locker, I still managed to snap both shafts though, the crap 2 pin front diff lasted less than 10k before I replaced it with an ARB and 130k later it is still going strong.

It might be worth trying to cut a deal with them, you supply the ARB locker and they fit it, that way it will be a win/win situation, you get a stronger rear diff which will last once the warrenty has expired with the bonus of it being a locker and they have you out of their hair with regards to diff problems.

[wagoo]

I wonder if it is an attempt to reduce mass (to compensate for changing panels to steel?).

More likely, rationalising to reduce the number of special parts for a low production vehicle.

As far as I am aware there are no operational reasons for replacing the salisbury, and I find it difficult to believe the cost is significantly different.

Another possibility is that the salisburys were bought in, and have become unavailable.

It needs to be remembered that the Defender is produced in vastly smaller numbers than its major competitors, and by a company which is not a major car manufacturer. This places many constraints on what can be done.

John

The Salisburies were bought in. Salisbury is part of Dana Spicer and the LandRover version is basically a variant of a Dana model 60, many hundreds of thousands of which were produced for US built pick up trucks and some high performance cars for around 40 years. They are still available and probably always will be. It really stinks what LandRover have done to the Pretender. The engineers or accountants responsible should be strung up by their family jewels in a public place, and every interested LandRover owner invited along to pelt them with rotten tomatoes.:mad::mad::mad:
Wagoo.

[dullbird]

Might be time to bite the bullet and fit an ARB or similar, they are much better than the std LR diffs.

I am lucky, I have a pre P38 TD5 110 rear which has the Salisbury, I then fitted a detroit locker, I still managed to snap both shafts though, the crap 2 pin front diff lasted less than 10k before I replaced it with an ARB and 130k later it is still going strong.


It might be worth trying to cut a deal with them, you supply the ARB locker and they fit it, that way it will be a win/win situation, you get a stronger rear diff which will last once the warrenty has expired with the bonus of it being a locker and they have you out of their hair with regards to diff problems.


Good luck dealers wont do it....it voids warranty for the axle.
tried that one

[justinc]

Might be time to bite the bullet and fit an ARB or similar, they are much better than the std LR diffs.

I am lucky, I have a pre P38 TD5 110 rear which has the Salisbury, I then fitted a detroit locker, I still managed to snap both shafts though, the crap 2 pin front diff lasted less than 10k before I replaced it with an ARB and 130k later it is still going strong.

It might be worth trying to cut a deal with them, you supply the ARB locker and they fit it, that way it will be a win/win situation, you get a stronger rear diff which will last once the warrenty has expired with the bonus of it being a locker and they have you out of their hair with regards to diff problems.

The ARB isn't going to make it any more reliable, the crownwheel design is the problem. The carrier is actually very strong, so the air locker won't help here. The first one I did had an airlocker fitted from 800km old, the pinion brg failed at 12K, LR actually repaired it as the ARB fitment doesn't touch the pinion, and it failed again 5000km later, taking the crownwheel with it:mad: .

I then fitted a sals with ARB and Maxi axles etc and all is happy now:)

JC

[Xtreme]

Good luck dealers wont do it....it voids warranty for the axle.
tried that one

I'd rather have an axle that's reliable and therefore doesn't need a warranty than one that is unreliable and spends a good deal of its life being repaired?

[isuzurover]

I'd rather have an axle that's reliable and therefore doesn't need a warranty than one that is unreliable and spends a good deal of its life being repaired?

See JC's post above yours - it won't help.

Ask stig000 (or whatever his name is) about all the problems he had after fitting an ARB to his late td5.

[newhue]

So guys you are saying when, not if, my puma diff fails I don't bother with warranty because it will only fail again. And if were to fit a locker I will most probably void warranty anyway.
So I'll in time probably fit a Detroit as ARB are to expansive. And then do I put it into a new salisbury diff with up graded Maxi axles.

Is that what's required for a long term reliable diff. Can I get a second hand Salisbury? If so are they only in Counties?

[justinc]

So guys you are saying when, not if, my puma diff fails I don't bother with warranty because it will only fail again. And if were to fit a locker I will most probably void warranty anyway.
So I'll in time probably fit a Detroit as ARB are to expansive. And then do I put it into a new salisbury diff with up graded Maxi axles.

Is that what's required for a long term reliable diff. Can I get a second hand Salisbury? If so are they only in Counties?

Certainly while it is in waranty get it repaired, won't cost you, but afterward then a Sals ex 1999 to 2002 Td5 equipped 110 with ABS is required, with tailshaft. Standard axles are sufficient if not running a locker, and as long as it is modded for oil lube to the axle splines, they should last well.

JC

[frantic]

As wagoo said the salisbury fitted to the defender till 2002 is just a METRIC version of the dana 60 fitted TODAY (FFS LR) to the jeep wrangler!
The only bloody reason that most can see they went to the cheaper/weaker rr/disco rear diff was to reduce parts on shelves.
I have gone down the detroit path as I have an 02 defender with a rear sal(Lucky me:D) and hytuff driveshafts. I believe Mr Automotive are now producing the complete rear locker for the sal's which might be worth looking into.
The other upgrades you will need with a puma are a double card. front propshaft if you lift it and with all defenders if you drive it medium/hard/ or 33in tyres+ you need stronger front cv's!
I really wish we could do a drivetrain "PLEASE EXPLAIN" to landrover.
Explain how they went from the strong cv's(some are still going 25 years later) in the county + salisbury rears to todays puma that stuffs the gearbox if lifted 2in and snaps the back axles or CV's if driven in any type of agression.
Why cant they go back to the original design which was to be a better more calpable version of the jeep wrangler and offer stronger diffs/ drivetrain as a factory mod (rubicon anyone).

[Xtreme]

See JC's post above yours - it won't help.

Ask stig000 (or whatever his name is) about all the problems he had after fitting an ARB to his late td5.

It did when the Sals and Maxi's were fitted :D - and, as JC points out, that's the real fix.

[dullbird]

I'd rather have an axle that's reliable and therefore doesn't need a warranty than one that is unreliable and spends a good deal of its life being repaired?
I would rather let warranty run out before changing anything on the car...

[Xtreme]

Lou,

I can fully appreciate your point of view.
Personally though, after seeing out warranties on three new Landies over the years, I have never experienced the difficulties that seem to exist at present with regard to warranty claims.

Reliability will win out over warranty for me anytime - especially when venturing to the more remote parts of this vast country. I realise that even with the best prepared and 'reliable' vehicle, breakdowns may occur but I would not be comfortable tackling somewhere like the Madigan Line or even the Victorian High country with a vehicle that had serious shortcomings or repeated failings.