V6 starting issue

[djhampson]

Uh oh...

I've developed a small starting issue.

The engine will crank normally but won't fire. Usually it will sit there cranking until I turn the key off.

Sometime it will cought once or twice and try to start but then it dies.

I can usually get the car to start by trying again a few times.

When the car starts the exhaust smells quite strongly. Perhaps the engine is flooded?

This doesn't happen every time I try to start the car and I can't pick in particular set of events that causes it to happen.

Any ideas on what to check before I let the dealer at it? I'm not keen on giving it to them because they'll probably

a) charge me a forturne.
b) break something else (like last time when they forgot to tighten up the prop shaft bolts :eek:)

[WhiteD3]

Sorry Dave, can't help. It's never happened to me (yet):eek:

[Scouse]

Chances are it will have a crank angle sensor or camshaft fault logged.

Chances are too that it won't be the cause.

If you go to your dealer, get them to look up LTB00335. There's an earth cable fix if the above fault code is logged.

Hopefully it's as simple as that.

[dangermousehouse]

This sounds similar to what happened to me and a Ford Falcon 4.0 V6.

RACQ reckoned there was nothing wrong with it other than it didn't like short journeys (I was based in Cairns) and it should have it's legs stretched fairly regularly.

Do you do a lot of short journeys?

[stig0000]

sounds like crank angle sensor and your battery is on its way out

[djhampson]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'm pretty sure my battery is going so maybe I'll start by replacing that first.

The strange thing is the car runs fine as soon as it starts so it can't be a major fault.

[djhampson]

Definetly think its the battery...

Got the problem last night while trying to start. 3 attempts no start. Switched off lights, ac and radio and it started fine.

Does anyone know if the battery in the RRS TDV6 is the same as the D3 V6?

I might swap them over for a week and see if the problem occurs.

[sniegy]

The batteries are different but only in size/capacity wise. The 4.0 V6 is a 690CCa from memory & the 2.7 TDV6 is a 950CCa, they will swap & work fine, it will just start the petrol easier.
Cheers.

[djhampson]

Well this problem started to reappear again so I subscribed to LR Tech Info and downloaded LTB00335.

It mentions installing a new earth cable from one of the power steering pump bolts to the earth point behind the battery.

I bought 2m of 4AG cable and two large lugs. My cable ended up being 1.3m long but it could have been a tad shorter.

Firstly remove the engine cover (undo 4 nuts and temp remove the oil cap)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/845.jpg

Disconnect and remove the battery, follow the negative lead to where it is bolted to the body. This is where one end of the new earth goes to.

Remove the top Power Steering Pump bolt. Refit the Power Steering Pump bolt with the cable attached.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/846.jpg

Route the cable around the vacuum pipes and along the front of the battery box. From here I was able to squeeze the cable down the gap between the battery box and the body. Run the cable along side the fuse box and secure it to the bolt with the negative battery lead. I pulled the bonnet seal back a bit to get better access to the earth point. It looks difficult but LR have left just enough room for your hands to get in there.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/847.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/848.jpg

LTB00335 specifically mentions that the new cable should be run as far away from the engine as possible.

So far the starting difficulties haven't reoccurred. I'll post back if they do. But heres hoping!

[Neil P]

It's interesting that the engine cranks over without firing , yet
when it does fire , it doesn't ever cut-out whilst running .
Is this correct Dave ?

[djhampson]

Yeah pretty much. The TSB says that the cause is "excessive noise burst signal during cranking on the camshaft position sensor circuit" so it must only be noise from the starter motor that upsets it.

[101RRS]

This sounds similar to what happened to me and a Ford Falcon 4.0 V6.


The engine in the Falcon is a straight 6 - completely different engine to the V6 in other Ford products ;)

Garry

[Neil P]

Fingers crossed that this works ( or creditcard out , if it doesn't )
because you really don't want the labour charge that can go with
an electrical minefield !

[djhampson]

:no2:


Well I got some value out of my RACQ membership last night.... she wouldn't start again and I flattened the battery after trying to start it several times.

The RACQ guy connected the battery to his car and it still would do the same thing. Crank like crazy but never start. Occasionally it would cough as if it fired on 1 cylinder but then it would stop.

He eventually got it to start by spraying some Throttle Body and Carby cleaner into the Air Box.

It ran fine all the way home and has started again fine last night (stopped for petrol so it was still warm) and this morning (cold start).


Any ideas? I'm going to take it to my mechanic next week and see if there are any error codes of interest.

[PhilipA]

This is usually what happens when a cam sensor fails.
The crank sensor does not know which cylinder the engine stops on until it gets to the missing tooth.
The cam sensor tells the ECU which cylinder the engine is on immediately at crank.
If it fails the car can go perfectly once it has started as the crank sensor knows from the missing tooth once it it turning.
Regards Philip A

[djhampson]

Thanks mate. I'll check that out and get the mechanic to check for error codes relating to the Cam Sensor.

I might try to find the Cam Sensor tonight and see if the connector is plugged in properly. I had a fault with the cruise control buttons not working and when I pulled the steering wheel off, the bloody plug wasn't joined together properly!

[cibertrans@outlook.com]

Hi,

My Disco 3 2005 Petrol 4.0 has started doing exactly what you discribe, driving my wife mad! Tell me, did you earth cable fix work?

Regards

Ian

[djhampson]

Hi,

The earth strap didn't fix the issue but the cam sensor suggested by PhilipA turned out to be the issue.

The cam sensor is on the top of the engine and easy to get to if you pop the engine cover off. I removed mine by removing the bolt and disconnecting the connector. Gave it a clean (it had a film of oily crap on it) and refitted it and the problem went away. I can send you some more info if you need it.

Just another potential problem, and this happened to me a few years ago the Engine started to stall at lights while idling. It would run rough for a few seconds and then stop. I could stop it from stalling by applying a little bit of throttle. This turned out to be the MAP\EGR valve - D3 4.0 V6 Petrol - EGR valve \ MAP Sensor (aulro.com) (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/233755-d3-4-0-v6-petrol-egr-valve-map-sensor.html)

[cibertrans@outlook.com]

Hi again,

Ok, sounds like I need to clean the Cam Sensor. I looked on youtube, but can't find anything on it for the Disco 3 4.0. So, if you could send me more information, I would be very grateful.

Kind regards

Ian




Hi,

The earth strap didn't fix the issue but the cam sensor suggested by PhilipA turned out to be the issue.

The cam sensor is on the top of the engine and easy to get to if you pop the engine cover off. I removed mine by removing the bolt and disconnecting the connector. Gave it a clean (it had a film of oily crap on it) and refitted it and the problem went away. I can send you some more info if you need it.

Just another potential problem, and this happened to me a few years ago the Engine started to stall at lights while idling. It would run rough for a few seconds and then stop. I could stop it from stalling by applying a little bit of throttle. This turned out to be the MAP\EGR valve - D3 4.0 V6 Petrol - EGR valve \ MAP Sensor (aulro.com) (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/233755-d3-4-0-v6-petrol-egr-valve-map-sensor.html)

[gamini]

Well this problem started to reappear again so I subscribed to LR Tech Info and downloaded LTB00335.

It mentions installing a new earth cable from one of the power steering pump bolts to the earth point behind the battery.

I bought 2m of 4AG cable and two large lugs. My cable ended up being 1.3m long but it could have been a tad shorter.

Firstly remove the engine cover (undo 4 nuts and temp remove the oil cap)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/845.jpg

Disconnect and remove the battery, follow the negative lead to where it is bolted to the body. This is where one end of the new earth goes to.

Remove the top Power Steering Pump bolt. Refit the Power Steering Pump bolt with the cable attached.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/846.jpg

Route the cable around the vacuum pipes and along the front of the battery box. From here I was able to squeeze the cable down the gap between the battery box and the body. Run the cable along side the fuse box and secure it to the bolt with the negative battery lead. I pulled the bonnet seal back a bit to get better access to the earth point. It looks difficult but LR have left just enough room for your hands to get in there.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/847.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/11/848.jpg

LTB00335 specifically mentions that the new cable should be run as far away from the engine as possible.

So far the starting difficulties haven't reoccurred. I'll post back if they do. But heres hoping!



good I found this.. I am having the same problem of P 0335 code on my 2008 DIsco 3.. I got this car recently and the previous owner has been driving for 3 years with this error.. Now it , at times refuses to start, or starts and dies. I cleared the code and it appears again with the check engine lamp.. I like this to go away and going to follow your lead and install a negative cable.. Still I am lost as to how this new loop can solve the issue. The main negative cable is bolted not that far from the power steering pump .

Where did you get the original document from.????

Cheers mate..... Gamini Adelaide..

[djhampson]

good I found this.. I am having the same problem of P 0335 code on my 2008 DIsco 3.. I got this car recently and the previous owner has been driving for 3 years with this error.. Now it , at times refuses to start, or starts and dies. I cleared the code and it appears again with the check engine lamp.. I like this to go away and going to follow your lead and install a negative cable.. Still I am lost as to how this new loop can solve the issue. The main negative cable is bolted not that far from the power steering pump .

Where did you get the original document from.????

Cheers mate..... Gamini Adelaide..


I got it from Home | TOPIx (jlrext.com) (https://topix.jaguar.jlrext.com/topix/vehicle/lookupForm) but they have changed the subscription options.

From what I understand the issue is the Cam Sensor is exposed to electrical noise from the starter motor which interferes with it sending its signal to the computer. The extra earth cable provides a better earth to reduce the noise.

As mentioned in this thread the fix above did not solve my problem but removing, cleaning and replacing the cam sensor did solve it. I would suggest doing this first then add the earth cable if you're still having issues.

I had a subsequent issue with the engine running rough and stalling at traffic lights which turned out to be a faulty EGR Valve / MAP/MAF? sensor (they are a complete unit in the V6 Pertrol). AFter I had that repalced I haven't had any other issues with the engine. 260k+ now and still going strong.

[gamini]

Yes after replacing the crank position sensor problem seems to have gone away. I have not driven the car much , but started many times and the lamp did not come on. Access to the sensor was not easy . I had to remove the battery and all other vac pipes and battery case etc in order to gain access.. Had a small lamp suspended in the cavity between body and the bell housing and also a flat mirror positioned so that I could monitor what I was doing. All standing on a milk crate.!!!.

The cam position sensor is relatively better positioned and I would replace that if the light comes again. The earth cable was already there installed by land rover , before I bought the car.

If you have time... read on..........

From my previous experience with another British make ; A ford transit MK7 , I am now contemplating installing some TVS diodes at power input stage of the ECM.. This solved the problem in the Transit case, where the main ECM was destroyed beyond recovery at the time of cranking.
(That too in the middle of nowhere near King's canyon, resulting in a tow from Alice Springs to Adelaide.). That way any negative voltage induced on the positive line and any positive induced voltages above 15 volts will short to ground.. I noted several of these in the ECM itself. but failed to operate in the Transit.
(The electronics there is Siemens ... I recollect).
It makes me wonder how these 30 year old Japanese automobiles with EFI still start and run with no warning lights and no smoking ECMs.. Some thing to be inferred.... Cheers.....

By the way, selling the LR3 is now of serious consideration and I would revert back to my Isuzu MUX which has none of those problems.I have had it for 3 years..