Got my car dirty - Freelander to the rescue

[101RRS]

I decided to go for a relaxing drive in the RRS on a nice road just west of Canberra (Tidbinbilla Road) - no intention of 4wd just a relaxing drive.

On the way around I went onto a dirt road (not offroad) to check something out and this happened:(

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/15122010002.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/15122010.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I was at onroad height and saw a bit ahead where someone has chewed up the road a bit where water had come across the road - I selected offroad height and mud ruts (hi range) and proceeded at about 10kph - there was then a failure to proceed either forward or reverse as I had bellied out and was crossed up.

We went into extended height mode and then to super extended mode (I think - other than a bong how do you know you are in super extended as nothing happened with the height) going into extended did not raise the body just pushed the wheels deeper into the clay - stayed crossed up and TC did not seem to work as the loose wheels continued to spin and wheels with some grip stayed still. I line with Freelander TC technology I gunned it and started turning the front wheels back and forth but the TC did not seem to work and I was not sure the CDL had engaged. (why isn't there a manual override switch to turn the CDL). Interestingly the engine would not go over 2700 rpm with the accelerator pushed to the floor.

No movement in Mud Ruts so I tried various setting with both Hi/Lo - best seemed to be the rocky settings - but still stuck.

Didn't have any gear with me as I was not going offroad and was not offroad - using sticks I cleared some of the clay away from the tyres, let them down to about 10psi and pick sticks and rocks under the the tyres - the chassis was totally bottomed out on both sides - like a beached whale. Still no luck - still crossed up with TC not doing much. Thought about using the standard jack but it would not have worked so did not bother. What was needed was to lift it up and stand stuff under the "road tyres". It is a shame that going to Access height would not lift the wheels up in these circumstances - if it did stuff could be put under the tyres when bellied out. An exhaust jack would have been perfect.

As I was not going to get out easily by myself I rang a mate to bring my Freelander over with my gear to do a snatch. Connected up and out she popped easy peasy.:) Who said Freelanders were all sookie and gay.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Here is the hole - the RR was actually held by about 1 square foot of dirt - the other areas were just sitting on the dirt with no real force.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/IMG_0067.jpg

The main issues are poor tyres, low ground clearance even at offroad height (it is too late to go higher when you get stuck), TC not working as well as it should have and the operator not knowing all the tricks of the vehicle.

So where can I find out what actually happens in the vehicle when each of the Terrain Response settings are selected and is there a way I do not know about to confirm CDL is locked and it is shame the wheels could not be lifted when Access Height is selected when you are bottomed out.

When finances improve a bit I think proper tyres, Llams and exhaust jack (should work well on the flat underside) are on the cards.

Thought I would just share. Oh I don't think I would have bogged the Freelander in the same spot but I know it and its capabilities more than I do the RRS and it has BFGs ATs rather than road tyres.

Cheers

Garry

[Scouse]

it is too late to go higher when you get stuckThat normally works quite well. I'm sure it's what enabled Discoweb to get out of the reknown bog hole up near the Zig Zag railway.

As you said though, this time it only seemed to push the tyres deeper into the mud so that's why it didn't help in this instance.

[Mike_S]

I managed to get mine stuck on a LR Experience day at Eastnor Castle earlier this year, very similar situation to yourself but it was somewhat staged to make sure we all got stuck in the most innocuous looking situation, no way would I have expected it to sink.

Fully extended and in mud ruts mode. I tried a few things first, much like you have and then the LRE instructor stuck his head through the window with a new suggestion. Into 'sport' mode, select 2nd gear and switch off the DSC then boot it. Sounded a bit crude to me but it worked, the centre & rear diffs locked up and after some serious scrabbling it came out of the mud :cool:

OK, I then lost momentum trying to avoid a tree and got stuck again, meaning the safest way out was on the end of a rope on the back of the LRE Defender but hey, I learnt something new about the car that day :p

The only 2 vehicles to get through were the LRE Defenders on Goodyear MTR's, this is one of them (with the offending tree) doing his damndest to not get stuck.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1016.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/1017.jpg

[101RRS]

I knew about switching off DSC but forgot all about it:(. I had one tyre on reasonably good ground with sticks and rocks under it and if I could get drive to it I would have been out. I was surprised how poor the TC worked - in fact worse than my FL1 which is first generation TC - in fact the FL1 is the first landy to have four channel TC and one of the few cars to have it on drum brakes.

Cheers

Garry

[Tote]

I was going to suggest turning DSC off as well, I got the D3 in serious trouble in the bottom of the dam at Gundaroo not long after I bought it, eventually got out by myself but not turning DSC off and crap tyres make a difference, have never come close since with the General Grabbers and more experience with the vehicle under my belt.

Regards,
Tote

[Hoges]

Quote: "Got my car dirty - Freelander to the rescue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I decided to go for a relaxing drive in the RRS on a nice road just west of Canberra (Tidbinbilla Road) - no intention of 4wd just a relaxing drive.

On the way around I went onto a dirt road (not offroad) to check something out and this happened


Several thoughts come to mind:

1. When driving a LR ...any LR...every path becomes the challenge you make it :angel:

2. " no intention of 4wd just a relaxing drive" ...Freudian talk for ...just a relaxing (4WD) drive....(thinks)... 'cause I'm in a RRS in HIGH RANGE, proper 4wd requires LOW range so this doesn't count :eek::angel:

3. ...

4. Glad you had a good time!!;):D:p

40+ yrs ago as kids we used explore that part of the coiuntry in a well used Morris 1100 with "winter tread" tyres and a pumped up fluid suspension for added ground clearance .....it's a wonderful place;)

[chuck]

Garry

I did the same on my first rip out with the D3.
Forgot about DSC did not select command shift mode etc etc.

Did the same in about 500mm of snow - I seelcted snow mode when I should have been in mud'n'ruts.

These cars are great but you have to know what to select, turn off etc.

I think there is also a fear factor with a new car which is exagerated when technology is not selected correctly.

If you have a club in Canberra spend some time with other D3/RRS owners.

Regards

Chuck

[101RRS]

Also a RRS drives like crap on standard tyres at 10psi. I had the air compressor in the recovery kit but half way through pumping up the first tyre - the switch fried itself (the second time it has done this). So note to self to remove small automotive switch and hard wire with a "big hi amp" switch installed inline in the cable. My mate drove it home for me and he said it was trying to fall over on corners as we drove home at 50kph.

Also I have a 10 tonne snatch strap that I have only used twice - once to snatch my brother's Triton with the 101 on Stockton and this one. On both occasions there was a severe jolt in the towing vehicle rather than a slow build up of tension in the strap like my previous straps. All nice and smooth in the vehicle being snatched though - I suspect my strap is either a bit too big (I bought it to snatch the 101 - which weighs half a tonne less than the RRS but 3.5t when loaded) or not made well enough to allow it to stretch. I use an really old frayed snatch strap as a tow rope but I might decommission it and use this current strap which does not have much give.

Garry

[stig0000]

not been harsh but that looked very easy to stradle them ruts;) well at least its been used, we got a email from a customer about a new supercharged sport, and it was boged in a hole, was prity much at the door handles, only problem was it was prity much at the door handles INSIDE as well, so you came away well off:wasntme:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

OMG,, Tidbinbilla rd,,,

the last time I was there I think we covered the whole thing in 30 odd seconds,,


but it was a while ago----:angel:

[Leo]

Get some lessons on using the systems on the RRS/D3 etc - a bit different to other 4x4s and work really well when you know how. Is there a LRE centre or LR club near you?

Do you have the 4x4 info screen?

[Mike_S]

Couldn't agree more. I've had mine for nearly a year and I'm still not aware of everything it can do, everything I 've done with it it's just lapped up without fuss. The 2 LRE days I've done have been a big learning experience but I just know there's more to it than that.

SWMBO spends all her time watching the 4x4 screen on these events "oooh, we must be nearly stuck, both the padlocks have gone red !!" :Rolling:

[101RRS]

not been harsh but that looked very easy to stradle them ruts;) well at least its been used

I was actually lucky I went into the ruts - on either side of them it is deep mud that I sank up to me knees in and nearly lost my shoes - the whole thing was just one car length though caused on a slight dip in the road that cause the 2" deep water to pool.

Yes am in a club.

Garry

[101RRS]

So where can I find out what actually happens in the vehicle when each of the Terrain Response settings are selected

Anyone know where I can find this information and is there a visual display that shows you are in super extended offroad mode. The dash display indicates when you have gone into extended offroad mode but other than a chime there does not seem to be anything to indicate the super extended mode on the dash.

Garry

[gghaggis]

There's a lot more to learn (and master) in the T5 vehicles than the FL1 or D2. The TC + TR, when used correctly is far superior, but can also get you into a lot more trouble if you don't use it correctly! And yes, the std road tyres are pretty lame in that kind of terrain. First thing to change ;)

This was after a 30cm clay pit that I accidently drove into - both driver-side wheels were submerged in thick, goo-ey clay. I still managed to drive out.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/12/977.jpg

Whenever you change the TR setting (eg from mud/ruts to rock crawl) the DSC will re-activate, and the car will drop from extended or emergency profile to normal off-road height. You probably couldn't exceed 2700 rpm due to the DSC being on.

If you're stuck by yourself, bottomed out, no gear and you're not sure what to do:

1 get out immediately and have a look - bit of digging etc.,
2 switch to rock/crawl (most aggressive TR setting),
3 switch off DSC,
4 select reverse and try to drive out with a bit of steering lock on, or
5 rock between drive and reverse

Do it in that order and do not change the TR setting again. If at any stage the car goes into extended mode, stop progress, and with hard lock on (to stop the front wheels from sinking) put it into emergency height and resume rocking/reversing.

Usually works :BigThumb:
Cheers,

Gordon

[101RRS]

Thanks Gordon,

As I said I went in with Mud Ruts and high range - mainly because it was flat and didn't want to spin the wheels too much and dig in - probably should have been a bit faster.

When I got stuck I immediately tried reverse but no luck - I went to super high still in mud ruts and and low range and no luck - went back to high range left it in gear and hoped out of the car - crossed wheels happily spinning with not sign of TC cutting in but I assumed revs (1000rpm were too low). I dug out the tyres and stuffed sticks rocks and leaves under them - when I got back in I went to rock crawl and there clearly was a difference - as you said more aggressive but no move even when trying to rock back and forth and turning the front wheels back and forth. Grass and sand settings had no real impact. As I said I new about turning DSC off but forgot all about it :(. As you indicated this is what most likely restricted engine revs and in turn prevented TC from working correctly.

Anyway - a great learning exercise.

Thanks to everyone for the pointers.

Garry

[stig0000]

I was actually lucky I went into the ruts - on either side of them it is deep mud that I sank up to me knees in and nearly lost my shoes - the whole thing was just one car length though caused on a slight dip in the road that cause the 2" deep water to pool.

Yes am in a club.

Garry

ohhh i hate that, think its hard and your feet sink, :D:D

[gghaggis]

Forgot to mention - you really should _always_ be in low range. The systems are calibrated to work best in that mode, and the wheel travel (articulation) is much greater due to the cross-link valves being activated.

Cheers,

Gordon

[101RRS]

Forgot to mention - you really should _always_ be in low range. The systems are calibrated to work best in that mode, and the wheel travel (articulation) is much greater due to the cross-link valves being activated.

Cheers,

Gordon

Well there you go - in the situation I was in, if you were in a D1 or D2 or even my 101 you would not go into low range as there is a big chance of just getting wheel spin and digging in.

I didn't know about the above - didn't read that in the manual :) however I did try low range when prompted by the dash display when I selected rock crawl - didn't seem to do a lot.

By posting this up - I have certainly learnt a lot of other little tricks.

It is a shame you cannot manually select extended mode (albiet with restrictions) as to go into that mode after you have bellied out and come to a stop (and lost momentum) is often all too late.

Thanks

Garry

[bee utey]

Aah, don't you just love the technology....getting stuck where a 1300 Beetle would have just chundered through...

[oldsalt]

Ahhh...... that reminds me of a day when I got to Sassafras gap (Vic high country) and turned left down a track marked 4WD and drove all the way down to the waters edge of Dartmouth dam .... in my VW T3 campervan (2WD and road tyres) ... it was summer but you should have seen the looks on the faces of all the "hard-core" 4WD types when I rolled up to camp for a few days ... "how did you get down here???" ... came the question from a camouflage clad, beer swilling Toyota driver standing next to what appeared to be a prop from a mad max movie ... "very slowly and carefully" was my reply and that's the way I drive my D3 and it sure pays dividends ... I'm not in a race and I like my car in one piece - not lots of little pieces spread all over some hillside.
cheers :D

[Mike_S]

By posting this up - I have certainly learnt a lot of other little tricks.

So have I and I've owned the bloody thing for a year !! Mind you I'm currently marvelling at its abilities in snow, we've had 12" of the stuff in the last 36 hours.


It is a shame you cannot manually select extended mode (albiet with restrictions) as to go into that mode after you have bellied out and come to a stop (and lost momentum) is often all too late.

Isn't there a smart kit developed by some chap over there that can give you the ability to override the height system and raise the car up to super extended (and beyond) yourself ?? I'm sure I've read about it on rrsport, must be on here somewhere as well.

[ozscott]

Forgot to mention - you really should _always_ be in low range. The systems are calibrated to work best in that mode, and the wheel travel (articulation) is much greater due to the cross-link valves being activated.

Cheers,

Gordon

In the D2 the traction control is much more aggressive at stopping wheel spin and sending drive to wheels with grip in low range compared to high range. Which is why when fitting say a D1 output housing and internals to a D2 to re-introduce centre diff lock like I did, it is important to make sure you have a button to push when in low to tell the SLABS that you are in low to make the trac control more aggressive (the D1 output housing does not have a low range switch on it, just a diff lock switch for the dash light and the housing is too thin where the low range switch would go to drill and tap one in - hence the dash switch, for which I used another HDC button).

I assume that the D3/4 works the same way in terms of the computer getting more serious when the machine is in low.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

I assume that the D3/4 works the same way in terms of the computer getting more serious when the machine is in low.

Cheers

Yes it does, but it is the difference in wheel articulation that makes selecting low range more important in a D3 than a D2. You're essentially transforming an independent suspension vehicle into a live axle vehicle.

Rule of thumb - if you don't need to exceed 60kph off-road, switch to low range.

Cheers,

Gordon

[gghaggis]

Well there you go - in the situation I was in, if you were in a D1 or D2 or even my 101 you would not go into low range as there is a big chance of just getting wheel spin and digging in.



It's hard to do coming from other 4WD's, but just trust the car - you won't get wheel spin ;)


Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

Yes it does, but it is the difference in wheel articulation that makes selecting low range more important in a D3 than a D2. You're essentially transforming an independent suspension vehicle into a live axle vehicle.

Rule of thumb - if you don't need to exceed 60kph off-road, switch to low range.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon, thanks. I forgot about that. So low range gives the cross wheel air lines the good news, forcing wheels down on the side opposing the wheel travelling up to, as you note, simulate live axle?

Cheers

[101RRS]

Isn't there a smart kit developed by some chap over there that can give you the ability to override the height system and raise the car up to super extended (and beyond) yourself ?? I'm sure I've read about it on rrsport, must be on here somewhere as well.

Llams Height Controller Llams PTY LTD (http://www.llams.com.au/?p=11)

Garry

[101RRS]

It's hard to do coming from other 4WD's, but just trust the car - you won't get wheel spin ;)


Cheers,

Gordon

I did - I actually got out of the RRS with it in gear and engine running - front left wheel spinning, right rear wheel spinning others stopped and no sign of TC doing anything :mad:. But I think dsc was sabotaging things though,

Garry

[gghaggis]

I did - I actually got out of the RRS with it in gear and engine running - front left wheel spinning, right rear wheel spinning others stopped and no sign of TC doing anything :mad:. But I think dsc was sabotaging things though,

Garry

In those circumstances it won't. It needs throttle input. Maybe
consider a course.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

Forgot to mention - you really should _always_ be in low range... and the wheel travel (articulation) is much greater due to the cross-link valves being activated.

I'm not so sure about this. The workshop manual only mentions increased articulation and improved ride comfort at low vehicle speeds, without any mention of low range.

[ozscott]

In those circumstances it won't. It needs throttle input. Maybe
consider a course.

Cheers,

Gordon

I know that the new shape's systems are quicker to react and smarter than D2, but in the D2 certainly you have to drive the ETC to get the most out of it, which means plenty of throttle and constant throttle, because as soon as back off occurs the system stops pulsing the brakes as aggressively. Im sure the new shapes' are not quite as touchy, but you cannot transfer drive through an open diff unless you have sufficient power to do so...Cheers

[powella]

I might see if the BBS MSV2 has a page showing the states of the cross link valves... It would be interesting to know.

Cheers,
Ap

[101RRS]

In those circumstances it won't. It needs throttle input.

Yes agree but the TC didn't transfer drive when revs were up around 2700.

As I said before TC just did not seem to happen in any of the TR settings - I have been driving TC fitted cars for some time and know when all else fails - hit the go pedal. I was crossed up and TC did not really work in any of the TR settings and it did not matter whether in hi or lo range. I suspect DSC was cutting revs before TC engaged or indeed my particular car has an issue.
It is going in tomorrow for some recall work and to get the software updated so there maybe something there.

Later, when my 101 is back on the road we will get out and bog the RRS good and proper and see what the go is. I will report back then - really interested to see what impact DSC has on the systems.

Garry

[gghaggis]

I'm not so sure about this. The workshop manual only mentions increased articulation and improved ride comfort at low vehicle speeds, without any mention of low range.

The cross-link valve blocks are only activated when low-range is selected. Hence my comment. If you ramp the vehicle, you'll _definitely_ notice the difference between low and high range. See my post on the Coastal 4WD ramp competition a couple of years ago. (Sorry, search is too hard from my mobile).

Cheers,

Gordon