On going 3 amigos and fault definition

[BIG O]

Can anyone tell me what the fault code "shuttle valve electric failure" really means??:confused:

[Redback]

Can anyone tell me what the fault code "shuttle valve electric failure" really means??:confused:

Means exactly that the shuttle vavle switch is faulty, there's a heap of info on it in "The Good Oil" section of the forum.

Baz.

[SuperchargedSport]

Id assume a shuttle Valve kit should fix it. I've done it too two of my D2's before.

[Andrew D]

Big O

What it really means is you have a car with a inbuilt defect commonly referred to as the 3 amigos. Option B will resolve it.

I had the exact fault as well and there was nothing glaringly stuffed about the SVS. Got a quote for $1100 to repair but opted for Option B instead ($15).

Happy days.

Regards
Andrew

[waz]

If you don't know them already, call MR Automotive in Redcliffe. In my case, shuttle valve faults were caused by the epoxy coating on the ABS modulator cracking and causing shorts. Modulator rebuild - $1400. Never had a problem since.

But try the $15 option first....

Waz

[greg smith]

After trying to resolve the problem myself, I decided to do the replacement thing--luckily I have an honest mechanic-- I have also spent quite alot of money wth him on my disco 2. The cost to him for the upgrade was $700 he charged me $100 to fit it--$800 all up he said normally a $1100 job. I feel that was the best option for me--those quoting $1400 and upwards only one word comes to mind--RIPOFF:D

[strangy]

Does it really matter?

The diagnostic is pretty clear. What you have to decide is whether it is correct.

If you have read the " The Good Oil" then you will have checked all the basics and understand it is now time to choose your repair option.
If you haven' t read all the info in " The Good Oil" then now is the time to go there.
If you dont understand it take it to mechanic.

cheers

[Andrew D]

If anyone (living in Brisbane) is considering going to a mechanic over doing Option B becasue they are just not sure or lack confidence in the process I'd by more than happy to help D2 owners out.

Dead easy job and pretty easy decision for me (Pay $1100 or $15). Also the $1100 repair may only last for as long as the first one did so it's possibly not a permenant fix where as option B is.

Regards
Andrew

[Pedro_The_Swift]

hmm,,

for those of you convinced that your shuttle valve is broken--

try a power bleed,,
if you can power bleed the brakes,,
it aint your shuttle valve causing those dash lights,,

cost?
some twin core cable, two spade connectors, a switch--

and ten minutes.;)

[Andrew D]

Pedro

I understand if the SVS is broken the power bleed will not function.

A power bleed would not be required to determine if it's broken though. All you need to do is check the TC/ABS/HDC is functioning and in my experience with the SVS fault readout all 3 work perfectly with the 3 amigos on and therefore this proves the SVS is not broken but apparently, and as the diagonsotics suggests, has a 'fault'.

The power bleed may however have some other benefits but not sure they will be long term with regards to the 3 amigos.

Regards
Andrew

[Urban Panzer]

Pedro

I understand if the SVS is broken the power bleed will not function.

A power bleed would not be required to determine if it's broken though. All you need to do is check the TC/ABS/HDC is functioning and in my experience with the SVS fault readout all 3 work perfectly with the 3 amigos on and therefore this proves the SVS is not broken but apparently, and as the diagonsotics suggests, has a 'fault'.

The power bleed may however have some other benefits but not sure they will be long term with regards to the 3 amigos.

Regards
Andrew

News to me, powerbled / flushed 2 diff vehicles with 3 amigo SVS faults, never had an issue tbh.

The bottom line is, if you want a 100% fix for good, do Option B from the link below.

ABS Mod - Land Rover Club V.I. (http://www.landroverclubvi.com/abs-mod.html)

[Andrew D]

News to me, powerbled / flushed 2 diff vehicles with 3 amigo SVS faults, never had an issue tbh.

The bottom line is, if you want a 100% fix for good, do Option B from the link below.

ABS Mod - Land Rover Club V.I. (http://www.landroverclubvi.com/abs-mod.html)

I'm pretty sure I'm agreeing with you if you read what I said. The words 'broken' and 'fault' are not equal in terms of the SVS.

I'm thinking broken means pulled out, smashed with a sledge hammer a couple of times then put back in as best as it can be after the sledge hammer treatment. With regards to the SVS I would consider it broken if one of the wires has been cut - the power bleed would not work.

(Break/Broken: reduced to fragments; Fault: defect or imperfection)

Regards
Andrew

[BIG O]

Hmm, pays to speak to everyone in the know about ABS modulators, and then speak to them again when you know all the facts. My fault as first mentioned points to a electrical fault in the shuttle valve solonenoid block (part of the kit) , a broken wire or connection. Something that would cost $1.50 to fix on any other ABS other than WABCO. Since my first question I have spoken to experts that do nothing but repair faulty ABS units including WABCO, and indi LR mechanics including MR Auto and British offroad. All have said it is never going to be a "sticky" shuttle valve I've heard people talking about.
The ABS repair and recon experts can do a repair on the faulty sol block for $450 that requires the repair of the broken electrical connection as that is all that goes wrong with it. The problem is that none of the ABS repairers in Brisbane have the guts to do it. I found 2 in Sydney that do them all the time! Not to mention sending it to the multitude of ABS repairers in the USA.
If I was to go down that track, when I got the repaired block back, I would need to do a sloppy bleed job to drive it very carefully to get it into MR auto and have the brake system fully bled on the computer as this simulates ABS, TC activation and ensures no air is left in the system. This will cost about $80.
I agree that the quoted price I got from both MR and BO of $1350 IS TOO HIGH. But I intend keeping the broken block and sending it to Sydney to be repaired, giving me a cheaper option for our 2nd Disco 2..
No idea what the $15 option B was, Im only new to this forum, but if it's that cheap, can't imagine what it would be or how long it would last.

[Psimpson7]

Another option is to change the switch pack in the base of the modulator. I have just done this. The part (genuine wabco) is about 180$

Link to how I did it:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1393632-post43.html

link to switch pack:

Land Rover parts - SHUTTLE VALVE SWITCH PACK (http://www.roverparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/188)

Its about an hours work or so to do it.

[BIG O]

Yeah mate did that , lasted 4 days then back to the 3 amigos. When I mention that part replacement to LR mechanics and ABS recon guys , they look at me like I just got given a dog poo sandwich instead of vegemite.

[strangy]

No idea what the $15 option B was, Im only new to this forum, but if it's that cheap, can't imagine what it would be or how long it would last.

I know you are new to the forum and the following is not meant to be abrupt but have you actually bothered to read the "good oil" as previously advised by a few already? Or the link, posted by another member direct to the mod, you doubt will be any good?

You seem to using up a lot of time and effort researching what has already been done, posted and moderators saved in this forum.

If you wish to doubt the suitability of a repair which you havent investigated or dont understand thats all ok, but probably better off just taking the advice of the expert who told you that any other modulator would be a $1.50 cheap fix, but since its a Wabco on a Land Rover...........

By your posts I'm guessing that you cant do this yourself so again take it to an "expert".

cheers

[clubagreenie]

Given that he


can't imagine what it would be or how long it would last

I don't think he's


actually bothered to read the "good oil" as previously advised by a few already? Or the link

which is a pity because he'd realise that option B is a very easy fix. It takes longer to move the unit to remove the switch than mod the switch. I've done 3, none mine so far. and have it down to just over an hour all up.

[Discobaker]

I guess u could say I was in a similar position myself to The Big O, lack of time, knowledge, confidence etc so when my Disco was at the mechs for other issues my missus just said "get it fixed!" all up cost me just on $1200, supply & fit front right abs sensor, supply & fit reco abs modulator, system flush, refill & bleed etc. So, chances are, a "reco" abs modulator has had "option B" performed on it I would think.
Building confidence with everything I do to the Disco myself, if I end up in the same boat again with the amigo's, I'll have a crack at it myself, knowing in the back of my mind, if I cock up I've got the good people that make this forum the Best I've ever participated in to fall back on.

[Andrew D]

If anyone (living in Brisbane) is considering going to a mechanic over doing Option B becasue they are just not sure or lack confidence in the process I'd by more than happy to help D2 owners out.

Dead easy job and pretty easy decision for me (Pay $1100 or $15). Also the $1100 repair may only last for as long as the first one did so it's possibly not a permenant fix where as option B is.

Regards
Andrew

Big O

Mate, had the same fault in my 2003 D2, did Option B. Fixed it.

Also I have offered to do it for free. Your choice. (Agree that Option B does sound too good to be true but guess what it's not. It will outlive the car).

By the way if you go ahead with sending the block to Sydney there's a greater chance you'll be back on the forum asking about 3 amigos again instead of doing Option B.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/34321-electronic-driver-aids-including-3-amigoes.html This is a link to option B. Urban Panzer has also posted the same link.

Regards
Andrew

[BIG O]

Thanks for the link Andrew, I've seen that before, but couldn't find it again. This forum is huge and I'm still finding my way around it. I wouldn't be confident doing option B firstly with my inadequate electrical abilty and secondly, I wonder what a insurance or police mechanical examiner would make of it if something horrific was to happen and it came down the mechanical state of the vehicle. Worst case scenario I know.

I am keen to show this to an auto electrician and see if they would do the work, as I say, my previous auto electrical work has ended up costing me more money.

In relation to the other comments.......I was referring to the shuttle valve switch kit alone being used in an attempt to cure the problem,, didn't work and most LR and abs experts see it as a bit of a joke and an unsuccessful way of dealing with a different problem. Sure they will offer it to people to try, but after my "research" which did include the 3 option fix in the past, when talking with these guys they all say it's fix alright but in a different way.

Thanks for all the reply's, it's the result I was looking for, having joined this forum.

[Andrew D]

Big O

I would like wise be interested to see what the auto elec thinks as I'm pretty sure it's only a bypass of the fault. Everything still works as it should. People have been using option B for almost two years from what I can see and no reports of issue other than good news.

Offer is still there if you change your mind.

Regards
Andrew

P.S I was very sceptical of Option B before doing it. Not anymore

[Rosscoe68]

yep, done the option b on 2 D2's now, no issues with abs since
also, see hummer abs faults, same modulator, same faults.
they use lr units in place of original hummer.
http://flashoffroad.com/Maintenance/Brakes/ABS/abs.html

[BIG O]

Thanks for the info everyone and the offer Andrew. Hope you all had a great Christmas. This All depends on what the wife thinks, the problem is on her vehicle and not mine, we both drive D2'a hers is 2003, and mine 1999. I've also just found out from Austral LR the wifes car had a LR recall for an ABS problem relating to ABS electrical components cracking and causing dramas. Could not tell me much more but sounds like the same thing.

[Urban Panzer]

The recall was to replace the top "caps" on top of the valves on the ABS modulator. The shuttle valve issue has never been a recall, although it blooming well should have been!!!

[clubagreenie]

I was reading the link to the hummer wabco rebuild and it notes a difference between some of the later D2 ABS blocks. Where the caps are different thicknesses. It seemed to be a across the board thing where (it's seemed to be US D2a's) the caps were made thicker but the pics as I saw it described were two pieces.

[georgesadlik]

After living with the 3 for the past few years and constantly having to reset them, i finally got around to doing option B yesterday. A couple of hours later and i am glad to say they are gone ! All the TC, HDC and ABS work as they should and this is with Bendix pads on OEM rotors. $15 for the the lead and plug plus some patience is all it cost me. BRILLIANT !!

P.S. I was quoted up to 1200 for the modulator repairkit installed from an expert.

Thanks for the advice :twobeers:

George.

[strangy]

Great news...love it when a plan comes together.

[Davetd5]

I did option B recently when the 3 's came on.
There were two codes that came up, one for the shuttle valves and one for the RHF wheel sensor. Did the shuttle valve wiring mod to the modulator and fitted a new wheel sensor, got the codes cleared, and its all fixed. Coupla bucks for the wiring, $150 for the sensor.
I understand the different ways we all approach repairing things. Some of us have the time and ability to do it ourselves, some of us need to take it in to get things like this fixed. I'm an ex-mechanic with heaps of ABS, EFI and auto trans experience so it was easy to have a go for me. I did get quoted $800 to reco the modulator which is probably reasonable if they want to cover all possibilities (not sure if they do anything like option B in the process). I've noticed that indi LR repairers here in SA tend to recommend going the whole way with repairs (eg fitting a whole front hub) rather than trial and error (replacing a wheel sensor first), but are happy to give advice once you get to know them (and buy parts off them!).

[alpick]

sorry for my ignorance and I have tried very hard to find the answer by searching but no joy


what exactly is "option b" please


thanks in advance

[Pedro_The_Swift]

go back and read the posts,,
there are at least TWO links in this very thread,

and if I use the advanced search function--
search entire posts(not Headings)
keyword= optionb


I get 6957 results,,,:cool:

though to be fair not all of them are about our sombrero'd mates:p

Once you find a link to The Good Oil forum-- read all the 3 Amigo posts under the heading
"Electronic Driver Aids including The 3 Amigoes"

Then come back and discuss it,, OK??

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hey Was,,
if I was cynical enough---
that fault you found could be the Option B fault,, ;):D

BIGO,, yes it is a "Faith" thing,,
and you only get the Faith by listening/reading and by figuring out who knows there stuff and who doesnt.
I have ZERO mechanical certificates, but I read.
I read everything.

and like Andrew says,, after two years and ZERO failures, I'm happy Option B works.
We can test wheel sensors first (physically too,, no nanocom needed) if you'd rather rule that out first,,

[Urban Panzer]

sorry for my ignorance and I have tried very hard to find the answer by searching but no joy


what exactly is "option b" please


thanks in advance

If im honest I find the search function in most forums a pain in the rear end, but a simple look back through this topic and in particular my post (no 11) will give you a link.

[BIG O]

I've been away over Christmas and new year just before Christmas day. But I plucked up the courage and did the option B. Didn't realise there must be a kit somewhere for 15 dollars including a plug??,,, or so it seems.

I Wired it using normal conectors after soldering all the conections and exposed wire before crimping and it all looks pretty smick and I'm happy its secure and wont give any problems. I used an ABS AMIGO to clear the codes and check for faults after the job and I'm happy to say no logged or current "Shuttle valve electric failure" faults showing on the PC when reading the AMIGO device. The wife and I have been solely using her car for the last week and no more 3 amigos either. Happy as hell. Cost me more that 15 bucks but that because I bought a new digital multimeter and new soldering iron. But plenty less that $1350

I have a spare SVS that I can wire up for option B if my car a D2 as well has the same fault, but it dosen't at the moment so I'm leaving it alone until it does.

Thanks for the replies and info, as I have said earlier on these posts, thats the reason I joined the forum and it well and trully paid off. cheers.

[Rosscoe68]

well done :)

[greg smith]

Big O--did anyone reply to the queary about the legalities of option B, I had the same thought, as have had dealings with insurance NOBS before:confused:

[Rosscoe68]

can't see how bypassing a faulty circuit could cause issues with insurance, unless the bypass caused the failure and the accident i suppose.

[justinc]

FINALLY, someone mentions legalities at post 35.

I will not be performing this mod to ANY customers vehicles, however I do mention this link to them and if they want to do it themselves, I'm happy to let them, I'll even bleed the brakes etc for them after.

I am NOT prepared to get caught up in a legal battle with an insurance company or more importantly worry myself to death wondering if the vehicle that was just involved in an accident had an ABS failure (Unlikely I must say), that could cause serious injury or death to the occupants of the vehicle. If the insurere saw I had dismantled the ABS modulator and modified it, I would be sued to within an inch of my life and who knows what else in the civil courts.

I have no doubt the fix is worthwhile, but to me, as a repairer, it just isn't worth the risk to me. At least the individual can decide for themselves if they want to do it.

It is a pity the legalities get in the way of a damn clever and simple fix for such an endemic problem.:(

JC

[justinc]

can't see how bypassing a faulty circuit could cause issues with insurance, unless the bypass caused the failure and the accident i suppose.

Unfortunately, just touching it, even if it IS working afterwards, will cause a problem.

JC

[clubagreenie]

Agree it would be a legal nightmare just touching it. Work related friend has lost house, business everything when he bought a hyd hose made by someone else and supplied it only (was fitted by end user). It wasn't crimped correctly so both him & the mfct went through the cleaners as someone died as a result. If he'd told them where to go and buy it he'd be clear.

While it's a bypass of a faulty circuit it's just bypassing effectively a broken wire so it doesn't really change the operation of the circuit to tell anything anything it doesn't already get told.

Wonder what the legalities of option A (cut open and resolder) would be given the level of work needed just to find the work by comparison.

For option A (when I need it) I'll be finding some OEM plugs to put in so it looks even more std.

[justinc]

Well ANY touching of an ABS unit, unless you are a qualified company to work on these, will result in trouble. I agree it is frustrating but if it only saves 1 life through this scenrio then it is all OK in my book.

Having said all this, the option B is by far the best way to fix this frustrating and potentially expensive problem.

JC

[justinc]

Agree it would be a legal nightmare just touching it. Work related friend has lost house, business everything when he bought a hyd hose made by someone else and supplied it only (was fitted by end user). It wasn't crimped correctly so both him & the mfct went through the cleaners as someone died as a result. If he'd told them where to go and buy it he'd be clear.While it's a bypass of a faulty circuit it's just bypassing effectively a broken wire so it doesn't really change the operation of the circuit to tell anything anything it doesn't already get told.

Wonder what the legalities of option A (cut open and resolder) would be given the level of work needed just to find the work by comparison.

For option A (when I need it) I'll be finding some OEM plugs to put in so it looks even more std.

While this is a horrific illustration of the potential to ruin lives, it is not inconceivable that it could be a similar scenario with a vehicle accident, especially if a death results. Sorry to hear about your colleague.

This is precisely why I will refuse to do this repair, even though I agree it works from what I've seen.

JC

[BIG O]

I have thought about this more. I guess if you do the repair in good faith to repair a fault that exists that could cause a accident (3 amigos that is), you can't be liable for man slaughter. Lets face it the problem remains there because LR wont fix it, if anyone is in the **** I feel its them if anyone dies as a result of the recurring fault. The option b mod is outside the ABS unit itself although the mod involves the SVS a bolt on replaceable item. You would have to say that if done properly and once again in good faith to make your car safer, how can you get in trouble for that. Manslaughter comes about when someone knowingly does something reckless that may cause a mechanical failure, eg using garden hose for brake lines.

[justinc]

I have thought about this more. I guess if you do the repair in good faith to repair a fault that exists that could cause a accident (3 amigos that is), you can't be liable for man slaughter. Lets face it the problem remains there because LR wont fix it, if anyone is in the S#@T I feel its them if anyone dies as a result of the recurring fault. The option b mod is outside the ABS unit itself although the mod involves the SVS a bolt on replaceable item. You would have to say that if done properly and once again in good faith to make your car safer, how can you get in trouble for that. Manslaughter comes about when someone knowingly does something reckless that may cause a mechanical failure, eg using garden hose for brake lines.

Don't worry BigO, I agree entirely, but I can see that having this discussion with a coroner or insurance company could have a completely different result:(

JC

[Andrew D]

In many years times from now and nearly every D2 on earth treated with a good case of Option B and not one accident as a result, the insurance companies and coroners will have to look elsewhere.

Also the insurance companies/police forensics look to see if the brakes are working and not malfunctioning. Mmmmmmm....yes they are with Option B. They would also need to do a major autopsy to even find Option B (assuming they don't own a D2 that is)

If Option B had some undesirable results I'm sure it would be common knowledge by now.

Lets review in another 5 years times.

Regards
Andrew

[clubagreenie]

using garden hose for brake lines.

Uh Oh... :oops2:

[ozscott]

There have been quite a few reports from members here over the years. Having said that I have 170,000, on my 02 D2 and since LR replaced the modulator at about 30,000k in 03/04 it has not played up. I have a mate with a D2a with 110000 and no ABS faults. So perhaps the solder takes longer to break down in some units I dont know.

Having said that can anyone tell me what Option B is doing and why the ABS modulator is still working as Mr LR intended. I have read the description of what the guy is doing on the site linked above but cant get it straight in my head...a basic explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[strangy]

There have been quite a few reports from members here over the years. Having said that I have 170,000, on my 02 D2 and since LR replaced the modulator at about 30,000k in 03/04 it has not played up. I have a mate with a D2a with 110000 and no ABS faults. So perhaps the solder takes longer to break down in some units I dont know.

Having said that can anyone tell me what Option B is doing and why the ABS modulator is still working as Mr LR intended. I have read the description of what the guy is doing on the site linked above but cant get it straight in my head...a basic explanation would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Instead of the circuit being interupted by the fault at the circuit board plug, Option B bypasses the faulty plug section using a wire externally.
It is that simple.

Think of your TV being plugged into a faulty power board, sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt, a bit of wriggle may make it work or maybe not. Instead of replacing the power board you just plug directly into the power point.

The main issue people have is understanding how the circuit works and what the Fault actually is.

[Panya]

I have bought a new SVS unit, plan A is to replace the faulty unit & if I keep getting problems to do option B at my leisure on the old unit & stuff it in. One question; when removing the SVS unit is there any loss of brake fluid? From reading I think no (esp Psimpson7 post) but as the subject above, just checking... thanks!

[Psimpson7]

Hi Panya,

You dont need to bleed anything when changing the switches in the base of the unit.

Rgds
Peter