P38 severe death wobble

[PeterAllen]

Hi all,
Have a severe death wobble that has developed over the past few weeks. Happens at about 60km or over and the whole car goes into a severe shake until the speed is reduced, uneven road surface can also start it off.
Was told it looks like the front wheels are wobbling out of control from following vehicle. Had front wheels balanced, no change. Changed tyres, no change.
Cannot notice any issues that are obvious with the front end other than a degraded boot on something under the axle. have read elsewhere about front swivel pins etc, steering damper, etc.
Is there any where that "draws pictures "for me as I have no experience in the suspension or steering and seems as though the front needs attention sooner than later. Also if anyone has experienced the same and fixed would like to hear about what what required, parts etc.
Regards

[bee utey]

You need a helper and a jack. First get under the car and get someone to rock the steering wheel, engine off. Feel the ends of all the steering rods for looseness, and also the track rod. I have driven a RRC with worn track rod bushes; it felt just like you describe. Then use the jack under the axle to lift the front wheels off the deck, one side at a time. Rock the wheel vertically and feel for movement. Costs are of course totally dependent on the parts and labour required. A track rod bush would cost less than $100 to fix.

[PeterAllen]

Thanks for the reply,
Is the steering set up on the P38 the same as the RRC?
I will get under it again this afternoon if time permits and have another play around.
regards.

[bee utey]

Thanks for the reply,
Is the steering set up on the P38 the same as the RRC?


No it is not "the same" but "very similar". The layout is similar to the RRC but the specific parts are different.

[RR P38]

Hi all,
Have a severe death wobble that has developed over the past few weeks. Happens at about 60km or over and the whole car goes into a severe shake until the speed is reduced, uneven road surface can also start it off.
Was told it looks like the front wheels are wobbling out of control from following vehicle. Had front wheels balanced, no change. Changed tyres, no change.
Cannot notice any issues that are obvious with the front end other than a degraded boot on something under the axle. have read elsewhere about front swivel pins etc, steering damper, etc.
Is there any where that "draws pictures "for me as I have no experience in the suspension or steering and seems as though the front needs attention sooner than later. Also if anyone has experienced the same and fixed would like to hear about what what required, parts etc.
Regards

My friend, if you have a serious "Death Wobble" and as you say no experience with steering or suspension systems for the sake of your self and other road users take it into a work shop for repairs:o

[glenhendry]

My friend, if you have a serious "Death Wobble" and as you say no experience with steering or suspension systems for the sake of your self and other road users take it into a work shop for repairs:o

While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment from a safety POV, I personally would prefer to do some investigation and learning before I took it to a shop to arm myself against possible misinformation, profiteering and shonkiness of some mob who may say "you need a new Johnson rod"...

Perhaps you should have said, "take it into a 'trusted' work shop" ;)

I'm not paranoid - I promise. :eek:

[PeterAllen]

I appreciate your concern about the safety of the vehicle and until the issue is resolved the vehicle has not been driven other than to test if wheel balancing was the issue.
I joined this forum to learn about the vehicle mechanically and as I have owned a RRC for over twenty years have some mechanical experience but have not dealt with any steering issues previously other than leaking steering boxes.
There appears to be many "possible " causes to this issue and I have already dealt with the obvious ones relating to tyres and wheels. I am seeking others experienced in such matters to learn from rather than support for my better half of "take it to a repairer" which will leave me with a lighter wallet and far less educated about the workings of the vehicle.
At the end of the day it may be the way I need to go but I want to have a serious shot at it first.

[goldiloxgirl]

Hi Peter, I know I'm only a girl but my family used to have lots of trucks and things...anyway, for what its worth, I experienced something similar once when the propeller shaft became unbalanced- the university joint went I think- and it caused an awful shaking in the steering wheel.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Lani

[PeterAllen]

Thanks for your input Lani,
I have checked the drive shafts and joints already as I have recently redone the front drive shaft uni joints on my RRC. It use to shake a bit but it was also noisy and the symptoms are dissimilar to what I am experiencing with the P38. (there is no drive train noise just the onset of severe vibration thru the front end).
I will know more when I get under it and have someone jerk about with the steering as Bee-utey suggested.
Hopefully, it will expose the culprit.
Regards

[Hoges]

Hi Peter, I know I'm only a girl but my family used to have lots of trucks and things...anyway, for what its worth, I experienced something similar once when the propeller shaft became unbalanced- the university joint went I think- and it caused an awful shaking in the steering wheel.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Lani

The university joint I attended in my youth always wobbled on a Sat night... :p but since they admitted everyone I guess it became a universal joint:eek::wasntme:


PS: There's a lot of good info in the P38 section of http://rangerovers.net/forum search "death wobble"

[willem]

It's your Panhard rod bushes! I know. Trust me!

The Panhard rod is the big one that goes accross the car with one side linked to tthe body and the other to the axle assembly. Just replace those bushes - its not that hard - and its fixed. Use OEM rather than aftermarket stuff.

I know ... the same thing cured my constipation a few times before I worked it out. That was on an RRC but the principle is the same.

Willem

[PeterAllen]

Thanks Willem,
Is it possible to test if there is movement in the Panhard rod bushes in-situ before pulling down?

[PeterAllen]

When replacing the Panhard Rod bushes do you need to press them out? or will a suitable socket and hammer do the trick?

[bee utey]

Thanks Willem,
Is it possible to test if there is movement in the Panhard rod bushes in-situ before pulling down?
By getting someone inside the car to operate the steering wheel and someone else being under the car to observe the movement......

[PeterAllen]

Thanks Bee utey. should they remain totally rigid when the steering is used and is the replacement items just a bush or is there other bits and pieces I should replace?

[bee utey]

Thanks Bee utey. should they remain totally rigid when the steering is used and is the replacement items just a bush or is there other bits and pieces I should replace?
I haven't done one on a P38 so I am not exactly sure what is involved. Please diagnose as much as you can, and remember to read the manual a.k.a. RAVE available under "shop" at the top of the page. Then see if you have the tools/skill required and proceed. Otherwise take it to a trusted LR workshop.

[PeterAllen]

Just spoke to the guys at Davis Motorworks and they have them for $11 each. Said you need a press to get the oldies out but otherwise no drama. I'll weld up a press frame that I can use the hydraulic jack in (meaning to do it for ages) and see how I go but will check all steering linkages underneath before hand as advised.
Thanks for the advise and I'll let you know how it goes after the weekend

[willem]

When replacing the Panhard Rod bushes do you need to press them out? or will a suitable socket and hammer do the trick?

I used a bench vice and a socket to push the old ones out, and just the vice to put them back. Just a normal 6" bench vice. They're not that tight.

Willem

[PeterAllen]

Thanks Willem,
I'll check it all out and give it a go at the weekend.

[PeterAllen]

As suspected by Willem and Bee Utey the bush on the Panhard Rod connecting to the chasis is shot. large amounts of movement at the joint when reviewed under the car and steering jerked around. You both certainly are spot on in the diagnosis. Got the bushes this morning and a 23mm socket for those bolts.
Willem, does the bolt on the axle side go into a threaded housing on the axle as for the life of me cannot see any nut sticking out anywhere although I had not removed the wheels and hadn't jacked the car and it may be hiding near the airbag. Any clues?

[wayneg]

Could you give us a follow up on how the job went and tools required, difficulty etc.
Glad you found the cause.

[willem]

As suspected by Willem and Bee Utey the bush on the Panhard Rod connecting to the chasis is shot. large amounts of movement at the joint when reviewed under the car and steering jerked around. You both certainly are spot on in the diagnosis. Got the bushes this morning and a 23mm socket for those bolts.
Willem, does the bolt on the axle side go into a threaded housing on the axle as for the life of me cannot see any nut sticking out anywhere although I had not removed the wheels and hadn't jacked the car and it may be hiding near the airbag. Any clues?

Actually, Peter, I can't remember. But I do remember that it wasn't difficult to remove them. In fact the whole job was pretty straight forward.

Just a quick tip for when you put it back - because the up and down movement twist the Panhard rod you may have to twist it slightly to line the bolt hole up again. I used a pipe wrench.

Willem

[wayneg]

looking on Rave its a nut and bolt,

For reference this site give bolts and nuts as parts

Range Rover 2 Front Panhard Rod at www.rimmerbros.co.uk (http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID009625)

[PeterAllen]

Hi all,
Well unfortunately my computer died last Friday so didnt get to see the last of the posts on here and in addition, a little old lady decided to drive into the side of P38 with her car. All involved are ok but the drivers door and rear door will need to be replaced on the P38.
Back to the Panhard rod.
Well set about undoing the drivers side where the Pandhard rod attaches to the chasis. Firstly there is a metal retainer that needs to be bent over so you can acces the rear nut with a socket or spanner ( 15/16"). I used a 23mm socket on the front. I finally got movement of the bolt but no way could I get the nut to undo. Had to resort to a extended handle (breaker wrench) and finally had success of undoing the nut.
The Passenger side has the Panhard connected to the front axle, again a lock nut and plate was fitted and was easy to undo. The main bolt on this side does not have a nut on it so don't bother looking for it. It just unscrews from the axle housing.
With the bolts out the Rod was easy to take out.
I could not remove the old bushes so went down to a local mechanic and got them pressed out and the new ones pressed in for $20.
When I returned and tried to reinstall, the rod appeared 20mm too short.
The passenger side wheel had moved out past the guard and the whole axle seemed to have moved by 20mm to the passenger side. At this stage I must say I was a bit confused and perplexed and thought that the air suspension must have somehow altered things.
I then jacked up the car and supported the car under the chasis members on each side leaving the axle free as I had jacked the car up previously under the front axle. Located and secured the rod at the drivers side to the chasis and then was able to push the wheel hub on the passenger side in enough to locate the bolt through at the axle end.
To be honest I have no idea whats behind that whole scenario but the panhard is now back in and the Death Wobble has been eliminated.
Tips.... support car under side chasis rails and remove front wheels. The "bastard" of a bolt securing the panhard to the chasis on the drivers side is much easier to tackle using the breaker wrench from the outside of the vehicle pushing down rather than from under the vehicle pushing up. Mine had locktight all over it so from the start to the finish of the thread was extremely tight to turn and my back is feeling it. If I had taken the drivers wheel off first and attacked it from the side of the car rather than being under it, would have saved my back.
Nevertheless. Job done and I'm happy. Now all I have to do is get it to the assessors and get the damage repaired from Fridays crash.
Thanks all for your advice.

[glenhendry]

Ah, great result. Good followup info! I will be under mine next chance with someone bouncing the steering wheel...

[willem]

Hi all,
Well unfortunately my computer died last Friday so didnt get to see the last of the posts on here and in addition, a little old lady decided to drive into the side of P38 with her car. All involved are ok but the drivers door and rear door will need to be replaced on the P38.
Back to the Panhard rod.
Well set about undoing the drivers side where the Pandhard rod attaches to the chasis. Firstly there is a metal retainer that needs to be bent over so you can acces the rear nut with a socket or spanner ( 15/16"). I used a 23mm socket on the front. I finally got movement of the bolt but no way could I get the nut to undo. Had to resort to a extended handle (breaker wrench) and finally had success of undoing the nut.
The Passenger side has the Panhard connected to the front axle, again a lock nut and plate was fitted and was easy to undo. The main bolt on this side does not have a nut on it so don't bother looking for it. It just unscrews from the axle housing.
With the bolts out the Rod was easy to take out.
I could not remove the old bushes so went down to a local mechanic and got them pressed out and the new ones pressed in for $20.
When I returned and tried to reinstall, the rod appeared 20mm too short.
The passenger side wheel had moved out past the guard and the whole axle seemed to have moved by 20mm to the passenger side. At this stage I must say I was a bit confused and perplexed and thought that the air suspension must have somehow altered things.
I then jacked up the car and supported the car under the chasis members on each side leaving the axle free as I had jacked the car up previously under the front axle. Located and secured the rod at the drivers side to the chasis and then was able to push the wheel hub on the passenger side in enough to locate the bolt through at the axle end.
To be honest I have no idea whats behind that whole scenario but the panhard is now back in and the Death Wobble has been eliminated.
Tips.... support car under side chasis rails and remove front wheels. The "bastard" of a bolt securing the panhard to the chasis on the drivers side is much easier to tackle using the breaker wrench from the outside of the vehicle pushing down rather than from under the vehicle pushing up. Mine had locktight all over it so from the start to the finish of the thread was extremely tight to turn and my back is feeling it. If I had taken the drivers wheel off first and attacked it from the side of the car rather than being under it, would have saved my back.
Nevertheless. Job done and I'm happy. Now all I have to do is get it to the assessors and get the damage repaired from Fridays crash.
Thanks all for your advice.

Beauty, Peter,

Glad you had success! Thanks for letting us know how it went.

Willem

[Lap]

Hi everyone!
I am new here but need help asap. I drove my P38 (1998) and turned into an icy (which I didn't aware) side road. The P38 slipped side way and the front right wheel hit the curb at app. 15-20km/h. The front axle moved to left side at 20mm. I can't drive the P38 straight at the usual position of the steering wheel but have to turn left 180 degree to stay straight.
I took a look under and found the the pan hard rob was bent. I couldn't see more damages. I took the P38 to the dealership I used to repair it. I received a scary quotation yesterday at CAD 7,850.00.
The tech said I need to replace the
1. Pan Hard Rod CAD205,
2. Two Radius Arms CAD3,200,
3. Two Front Air Spring CAD1,200,
4. Tie Rod+Drag Link CAD 530 (I don't know what this is),
5. Swaybar+Endlinks CAD320 (again, I don't know what this is).
The labor involves is another CAD1,366 including alignments
The dealer is pushing me to either repair it or take the P38 back.
Can anyone assist me with what I should proceed with? Can I jsut replace the pan hard rod only?
Many thanks
Lap

[glenhendry]

The pan hard rod wont make the steering wonky, but the other two steering rods will. You should be able to pick up steering link and track rod (with tie rod ends on) second hand or new for a lot less. You could fit them and then get a wheel alignment. You only need a cheap ball joint separator tool (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Stanley-Ball-Joint-Tie-Rod-Separator.aspx?pid=12568#Description).

Id be going to find a P38 getting wrecked and get all three rods. All of the tie rod ends could need replacing from wear, rather than the accident.

Seems to me like a very big impact would be needed to hurt the radius arms, but the bushings could be ripped. Cant tell without looking at them.

Air springs only need replacing if they are leaking...

[wayneg]

If you can get the part numbers for the bits you need get onto this website Land Rover Spares and Parts Direct (http://www.lrdirect.com/) and you will see how much cheaper the parts can be had for. Put all the numbers in add to cart and you can get a shipping quote straight away. They use DHL express tracked so wont take long. If you cant do it yourself find an Independent garage stay away from the Stealer's.


Go to this website to get a PDF parts catalogue for free
http://www.roverparts.com.au/range_rover_pa38

[Lap]

Thank you glenhendry and wayneg. I went down to the dealer this afternoon. The service manager and the tech both pushed me to make decision to go for the repair right the way. I insisted to let me inspect the damages. They raised the P38 and showed me the undercarriage. I can only see the pan hard rod and the anti roll bar (sway bar?) end ( which limks to other parts looks like axle) were bent. I don't see further damages. The tech said the pan hard rod was bent down 3 inches, since it was made by steel and is elastic; right at the moment of impact the pan hard rod must be bent for more than 5 inches. Under such an impact and movement of the under carriage, the radius arms, tie rod + links, front air bags, sway bar and the road wheel must be replaced. I asked him why the radius arms as I can't see damages or change in shape when comparing the left and right arms, futhermore; I see the arms are cast metal and it shouldn't be bent. The tech rephased that the impact could make hairy cracks in the arms which could cause a severe accident in the future if not replace now. He said all the repairs quoted are not recommanded but mandated, period. Either repair all or leave. I surprised him that I decided to pay the inspection fee and leave. He said he would not let me go because the P38 is not road safe. I insisted and the service manager required me to sign a letter indicating I admit the P38 is not safe unless their suggested/mandated repair is done. I paid the inspection fee and left. Now the P38 is home. I will take you advices and gather costs of the pan hard rod, bushings and the anitroll bar (swaybar + end links). Order the parts and try to replace them myself. Although I have never do mechanical service to my P38, I will try this time as I feel confident as you guys are very helpful. I must say I am very upset by the dealer. I service the P38 since I bought it new from this dealer. The total service fee I paid all those years after the warranty expired worth more than a new Range Rover, perhaps they try to push me to buy a new one this time. I will not go back there anymore. Again, thank you for your input and I will update the progress of the repair. Thanks again!:)

[Lap]

Hi glenhendry. I am confused about the names of those parts, perhaps you can shed light on me. What are the steering link and track rod ? Are they same as the swaybar (antiroll bar) and the tie rod + drag link? What are their functions. Where are they located and how they look like?
Thanks so much!

[wayneg]

Dont forget if a particular part is very expensive the UK is full of breakers yards with cheap second hand parts. There must be quite a few in the US as well.
Make sure your tools are good and strong and get yourself a long breaker bar as some of the nuts are very tight. Working on these P38`s is mostly straight forward with no surprises.

[bee utey]

Perhaps you should purchase a workshop manual first so you can identify the parts you need. See "shop" tag above. Maybe someone here could link a front suspension detail drawing?

[Lap]

Glenhendry is rght, besides the panhard rod is bent, the steering link (Drag link) and antiroll bar right end are bent as well. I have to replace the panhard rod, link and antiroll bar. The track rod looks fine though. I down loaded a P38 rave workshop manual. Although the manual looks quite imple but I think there is plenty information provided for the service needed. I am now looking for the parts. Thanks!

[Marshall]

Give Peter an email with your "shopping" list, he did some great deals for me recently and I can highly recommend him. Most of the parts you will get are from "bearmach" which are very good aftermarket parts, and he generally wont be beaten on price, even after freight...
peter@autoparts-onlineuk.co.uk

Good luck

[wayneg]

Lap, BE CAREFUL with the Panhard rod. The Left Hand drive models are different ( see the parts list I pointed you to)

Have a look at this seller on e-bay, might be worth trying for a job lot deal if he has all the bits. He`s in the US so LHD parts


LAND ROVER P38 FRONT ANTI ROLL SWAY STEERING BAR | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LAND-ROVER-P38-FRONT-ANTI-ROLL-SWAY-STEERING-BAR-/150671552243?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3ARange+Rover&vxp=mtr&hash=item2314b96ef3)

[PaulP38a]

Man, it irritates me how some workshops will try to fool unsuspecting and trusting owners that their vehicles are in much worse condition that they really are.

The air-springs are the most flexible part of the system. I find it hard to believe that they would be damaged by a 20kph bump with a kerb. I have done much worse to mine and they are still going strong.

It would be worth checking in with Scotty at So. Cal. Used Rover Parts (http://www.socalusedroverparts.com/) in California for the new or used bits you are looking for.

Justin at Lucky8 LLC (http://lucky8llc.com/) in NY can help with bushes and (adjustable) panhard rods, plus other cool stuff for your P38.

Tell them Paul from Hard Range http://hardrange.com (http://hardrange.com/) sent you. Might not get you a discount, but might help me get a better price next time I want to buy stuff from them ;)

Best wishes sorting your P38 out yourself. You will be pleasantly surprised how easy they really are, and save yourself a heap of money in the process.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Hi Lap
been following your story:( . As you are spending some money anyway, see if you can purchase one of those electric rattle guns which plug into the cig. lighter socket. Probably around $50 US. They're good for 250 ft lbs (about 330NM) and are invaluable for undoing big nuts and bolts in confined spaces. Excellent for undoing stuck wheel nuts as well!

Good luck with it...I sincerely hope you have a heated space to do this work!!

[Lap]

Hi Paul and everyone!
The story gets much more frustrated. Due to busy schedule I took the P38 to a workshop to fix. They replaced the pan hard rod including bushing, the right anti roll bar end, the drag link for me. Although the P38 was on bump stop, I asked them to leave the EAS suspension. I know the compressor was weak due to the worn cylinder. I planned to change it once I located a SS one (now everyone is out of stock and I ordered a special one from Netherland via EBay). The workshop fixed the rods and I took the P38 back last Friday, I installed the emergency raise kit ordered from Paul of Hard Range. The installation was easy following the instructions from Paul; I thought I can raise the p38 immediately and drive my son to ski. I drove to a nearby gas station to fill the tank, no raise at all; I pumped direct into the air springs, I heard hissing from the two front and left rear springs! The three springs are punctured! I can't believe the three springs were damaged by the <20km/h collision especially the air springs were replaced with new two years ago. I drove the p38 to the dealership without problem with the air springs and EAS. The EAS was on normal ride height. I remember the day I when I was in the dealership trying to inspect and discuss what were really needed to be replaced. The technician of the dealership told me the front air springs were mandated to replace. “What I quoted on the list is mandated, there is no room for discussion” he said. I told him the slow raise up is because of a worn compressor cylinder. I told him it may take 45 min to rise. He replied he had tired longer than that and smile mysterious. Since he said there was no room for discussion including the expensive radius arms(quoted $3200) needed to be replaced although no damage was observed. I surprised the tech by taking the P38 back instead. There was 20min wait when they required me to sign a document to acknowledge the p38 is not safe to drive before fixed by them and pay the inspection fee prior to release the car. I now think there was perhaps enough time to puncture the air springs. When I drove the p38 back from the dealership, the car was on bump stop and I thought that the dealership may depressurize the system... I am ordering the air springs from Arnott Industries as per the recommendation by Paul.

I now have an urgent question before I take the P38 back to the workshop to install the air springs:

After replacing the pan hard rod by the same workshop specialized in Land Rover, I notice the:
1. The front wheels are still shifted 2" towards the driver side (LHD here). There was 3"to 4" in the same direction after the impact and the pan hard rod was bent. (the impact was at the left front wheel to the curb)
2. The rear wheels are app. 1' to 2" shifted to the same direction. I didn’t notice the rear wheels are shifted after the impact.

I would like advise to whether this is normal if the air springs are damaged and the car is on pump stop?
Will the chassis be centered if the it is raised by the air springs?
I did some trigonometry calculation and the result is opposite. The calculation shows if the chassis is raised, the wheel will shift further towards the driver side. My LHD P38 links the pan hard rod to the chassis at the driver side. Can anyone tell me why the wheels are still shifted to the driver side after repaired? Was the repaired done incorrect?
Thanks so much.:(

[PeterAllen]

Hi Lap,
I noticed movement in my front wheels only, when I removed the panhard rod. Movement was to passenger side on mine which is the left side of vehicle. This is the side that the panhard rod attaches to the axle housing as on the RH side ( drivers side here) the panhard attaches to the chassis. Yours sounds as its just reversed for LHD which makes sense.
The panhard rod is a fixed bar so the movement that I saw was due to the airbags. dont ask me why as I have no knowledge of that other than thats what happened. I suspect when the bags are replaced and inflated it will all line back up. To replace my pad hard rod I had to lever the wheel and axle sideways back towards the car so that the panhard rod could be attached back into its original position. I attached it to the chassis first and then the axle mount.

[Lap]

Thanks PeterAllen,
You are right. In my case of LHD, the pan hard rod configuration is reversed.
The rod attaches to the chassis in left hand side (driver side) and attaches to the axle housing at the right hand side which is the passenger side.
I re-measure the side movement with the help of my son, I confirm now the front axle is moved to left hand side at 1". (or the chassis is moved to right at 1"). (My left/right is defined as when you are sitting in the car.) My calculation is if the car is raised by the air spring, the chassis will move towards right side further due to the attachment point of the rod to the axle is at right hand side and leave the axle movement shifts further to left hand side and increases the already 1" move (at bump stop). I hope it will be corrected when the new springs are installed. I hope the workshop didn't install a wrong hard rod bar. I really want to make sure everything is correctly done before installation of the new Arnott air springs as I have enough problems with the P38A lately.
I want to get it run healthily again.
Thanks!