Thoughts on breathers?

[SuperMono]

Poking around under my recently aquired D3 today and had a look at the rear diff breather setup (runs up near the fuel filler by the look of it).
I didn't locate the Gearbox/TR breathers as I decided it was more important to attend to a few other minor issues.

So I decided to seek your thoughts as to if a D3 needs any additional attention to Diff, Gearbox & Transfer case breathers?

My D3 is not intended as a long distance tourer and generally I avoid deep water and mud anyway.

Thoughts, comments?

[gghaggis]

All the breathers are factory-fitted and are higher than the recommended wading limit by a fair bit. If you're in that deep, you've got other problems!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Duck's Guts]

Have the factory breathers got filters on them?
Where abouts do each of the breathers terminate?

[jonesfam]

The only 1 I have found so far is the front diff breather (I think that's what it's for) it terminates right beside the top of the radiator & has a filter.
If all the other breathers are as high (& why only make 1 that high) you should not have a problem.
Jonesfam

[Colin Pedersen]

Just found the read Diff breather that travels up the fuel filler pipe along with the fuel tank breather lines terminating just behind the filler flap. The center and front diffs show the breather caps and a hose heading up into the engine bay. Good to see these are build into the design from scratch, great vehicle!

[Duck's Guts]

The only 1 I have found so far is the front diff breather (I think that's what it's for) it terminates right beside the top of the radiator & has a filter.

Jonesfam, I couldn't find this. Are you referred to a D4 3.0 or 2.7?


Just found the read Diff breather that travels up the fuel filler pipe along with the fuel tank breather lines terminating just behind the filler flap. The center and front diffs show the breather caps and a hose heading up into the engine bay.

Found it! Thanks Colin. Mine doesn't have a filter fitted. Is that as it should be?

[jonesfam]

Don't you hate it when you just can't quite remember where the thing is & you have to go down to the car port in the dark with the toads, frogs, snakes & yowies to check.
Now, mine is a D3 09 TDV6. If I have the right pipe (& I think I do cause the dealer showed it to me) it comes up on the right side of the radiator, looking from the front) is slightly lower than the top of the radiator, is between the radiator & the overflow bottle, is black, is thin & has a loose fitting black cap that spins & moves slightly when you give it a bit of a tug. It is clipped to the lower of 2 silver pipes that run to the radiator, probably A/C pipes?
Jonesfam

[Duck's Guts]

Thanks for that. Excellent description Jonesfam.
Made locating it easy.

So, D3 & D4 2.7TD are unchanged with respect to the front breather.

I must say that it seems wierd to me to have the breather so far forward in the engine bay. I was expecting it to terminate towards the firewall.

[PaulGOz]

Hi,

Has anyone actually located where the centre diff and transmission breather terminate?

Thanks in advance.

[unseenone]

After reading through the thread, I get the impression nobody is worried about water contamination, and are assured based on these breather tubes. Think Again!!! The K is stated in Miles, rather than Kilometers.

If you want to significantly increase the lifespan of your diffs, read on. I can speak with some authority as to the exact reason for the failures, and then the remedy.

I had my LR3/DIII serviced at the Dealer from day one, exactly by the book to manufacturer specs. I had my Differential fluid changed at 75k, at that time, they advised me I needed a my differential rebuilt (front and rear) and quoted astronomical price. Now I certainly can attest to the proficiency and professionalism of the dealer, as most folks I have tried to get service from besides them don't even return your calls locally. It still is a lot of money, for something I didn't feel should ever, if at least very rarely go bad, man was I wrong. This is a common failure for these models, and the only thing on the market is new ones, or used ones.

I didn't have it replaced at that time, instead I started investigating if I could get the parts, etc. and what or who else might be able to do it. I was during this investigation I discovered that the parts were not available at the dealer, or anywhere else. I revisited the dealer on the subject, and discovered they were swapping the unit, not repairing it. No mention, just the usual dumb look, when I asked if there was a core swap, surcharge, etc. I then specifically asked if they could get the bearings and parts, and they claimed it couldn't be done. I asked them to give me the numbers on the bearings they claimed they had, and couldn't cross reference, no reply.

After lengthy investigation I found the bearings, and Ring & Pinion. After getting the parts in, and the additional bits needed, I located an Indy shop with good experience rebuilding differentials. So finally, I got it on the rack, and they pulled off the differential, and drained the fluid, etc. At 90k, just 15k after the fluid change, the fluid was milky and contaminated with water. Now, considering we live and a dry climate, and I have not forded any water (one time since I owned the vehicle) I don't understand how/why the diff oil is contaminated in such a short time. The conclusions that I can come to are that, either there is a design defect causing moisture to accumulate rapidly and not escape, or that the dealer did not actually change the fluids, as they claimed. I have to believe the change was actually done, due to their reputation. So now you could argue that the damage was done from 0-75k miles, but that does not explain the water from 75-90k.

The front differential was not nearly as damaged or worn as the rear differential, and did not have nearly the water that the rear differential had, this leads you to believe that there is a design related issue in regard to the water ingress on the rear differential. Also, the transfer case oil was drained, and replaced. There was fairly little contamination there was well.

Now the lessons that can be taken from this based on talking with the Indy shop, is that water, and the resulting rust did the damage. Lack of lubrication did the rest. So, I would have to say, it might be well advised to change your Differential Fluid every other oil change and monitor for moisture possibly increasing the interval, or say every 14-20k miles or anytime you have forded through deep water. I don't currently have a warranty, but even if you do have a warranty, who wants to deal with getting repairs done, not having your vehicle, and all the other associated hassles. LR should change this fluid under warranty at least every other oil change, but if they will not, I would suggest you do it yourself, or pay the extra money to have it done.

Finally, the proof, I have several detailed photos, the only ones I know of, of the diff torn apart, and showing the rust and damage. The photo attached is the locking mechanism side of the assemble internals. The Indy shop, said in general it is a very slick designed differential, and well made, aside from the water. So, the only preventative before damage, is to change your Diff Oil's at least every other oil change in my opinion, and then increase based on oil condition, etc. After the damage, the only solution is to rebuild it, and then change every other oil change again. It could be said, that by doing every other, and monitoring the quality of fluids when drained, it might be possible to increase the frequency. And any time you operate in water, and extreme wet conditions, it might be well advised to drain and refill them.

I highly suggest, you consider changing your differential fluid ever other oil change, or third, and always after fording through water. After a lot of research, and contacting Royal Purple, I decided to try it. Most people have reported good success, and quieter operations in general with it. Here are the specs needed for the transfer box, and front and rear differentials.

Transfer Case: Royal Purple Synchromax (part #01512, quart bottle) or Royal Purple Max ATF (part #01320, quart bottle); 1.6 quarts

Differentials: Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90 (part #01300, quart bottle); 0.65 quart for the front and 1.6 quarts for the rear (locker)

I also replaced about 1pt power steering fluid with Royal Purples.

After the work was done, wow, what a difference. It now is smooth, quiet and very little noise, I would venture to say, better than new.

If you want to locate the repair parts for front or rear differential for your LR3 LR4 RRS etc PM me with your name, address, phone, e-mail address and I will get you information, etc. You cannot get these parts from the dealer (dealer inquiries welcome) Check out my gallery for pictures of new and old ones..

Most any competent indy shop can perform this rebuild. Parts and labor for the job are about 1/2 to 1/4 of the dealer price.

:soapbox: (steps down off from soapbox)

pictures
DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - Home > Member Galleries > tlt (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/index.php?cat=11463)

[bbyer]

[QUOTE=PaulGOz;1488667]Hi, Has anyone actually located where the centre diff and transmission breather terminate? Thanks in advance./QUOTE]

I have not actually seen the transmission vent hose or whatever, however the jpg and pdf below are of the 6HP26X case. The jpg is too small to see but the pdf when opened is quite clear.

I wondered if the vent hoses are located such that when the body is off, the hoses do not have to be disconnected. That may explain why the front differential vent runs forward to the radiator rather than being attached to the firewall.

The part on top at position 01.070 is called up as the Breather Tube. I presume that is where the vent hose connects to.

Have not found anything on the transfer case yet.

[CaverD3]

Diff failures are a known issue. Originally seals would fail due to contamination of diff oil by a coating used on the casings. There have been some instances of the diff breather one way valves (not filters) not opening.
Diffs are still failing but not leaking less failurs in later models though. I think it is more likely any new failures are down to poor manufacture on individual components.
It is better protected than most 4x4s but always good to change oil if you do a lot of wading.

[unseenone]

Diff failures are a known issue. Originally seals would fail due to contamination of diff oil by a coating used on the casings.

Correct, but there was a limited recall / technical bulletin based on that, it does / did not apply to all ever manufactured, rather a limited number. As it was stated before, the coating would mix with oil, creating a grinding paste.

I can understand that anything with bearings can wear out, I take issue with the fact, the manufacturer and LR would create a situation whereby the parts for reasonable repair are intentionally withheld to sell an entire unit.

We agree on the fact water contamination can happen, and attention should be paid to it. All I am suggesting, is that an ounce (or rather a pint or so) of prevention is worth a pound of cure (failure or noise). Having said that, the breathers are necessary, but evidently there is the possibility for some water contamination, perhaps it leaks in from the seals... who knows for sure..

[CaverD3]

Agree.

Maybe the one way valve is a problem? Hot diff cooled will draw air in so if valve is closed it could draw water fron a connection? If wading a lot I have seen some with filters repalcing the valve.

[bbyer]

Attached is a pdf of the rear electronic differential showing the breather hose, part # TES500050.

I could not find any reference to that number anywhere so probably the number has been changed. That always bothers me as often that means the item rather than just having the price increased as per North America, the part could actually be changed and I presume improved.

What I was really trying to find is a picture of how the hose terminated at the top. I gather per CaverD3, the top end is some sort of one way valve but perhaps now it is a filter, or not!

What I am used to on American pickups is an open ended hose hanging back down from above and works OK until bugs start living inside the hose.

I also included the front diff as well, breather hose part # TAP500081

[rick130]

After reading through the thread, I get the impression nobody is worried about water contamination, and are assured based on these breather tubes. Think Again!!! The K is stated in Miles, rather than Kilometers.

[snip]


Condensation accumulating in the fluids is common, generally caused by short trips, the unit gets warm enough to pull moisture in through the breather on a cooldown, but the trip lengths aren't hot enough to vaporise off any said moisture.

The fix, as you've discovered, is more frequent oil changes, regardless of the quality of the diff oil used.

The diff only takes, what 1.1 litres ?

75,000miles is a snap in a semi, most can go 3-400,000km with full syn fluids but the diff capacities are upwards of 20 litres and they are hot all the time.

75,000miles/120,000km on 1.1 litres ? Hmmm. Doesn't leave much in reserve for contamination, either metallic, dust or water does it ?

Curious, what service interval is in the Oz service book ?

[bbyer]

75,000miles/120,000km on 1.1 litres ? Hmmm. Doesn't leave much in reserve for contamination, either metallic, dust or water does it ?

Curious, what service interval is in the Oz service book ? The attached for the D3, Rest of the World, (do not know if Down Under had been discovered as of 30/1/2009, the date on the pdf), but the attached Land Rover pdf calls for "renewing the locking differential oil at 120k and 240k". For the front and rear normal differentials, it says every 10 years.

It appears that k means kilometres, so that suggests 75,000 miles and 150,000 miles in the New World.

There is then the disclaimer to the effect that extremes of ........ means more often for most items. I think Australia qualifies for the disclaimer, hence best judgement and 150,000 km is on the far side, let alone 10 years.

[rick130]

I've dropped diff oil of of a Sals that had in excess of 3 litres in it (oversized diff cover) that had exceeded 40,000km and it looked putrid, and there wasn't any moisture contamination.
Oil used was Castrol SAF-XA, an Australian specific 85W-140 PAO/ester synthetic.

I've never done any used oil analysis on diff or g/box oil either, but at the small (relative) quantities we use in our 4WD's, changing is cheaper than testing to extend the service life.

SAF-XO 75W-90 is the recommended fluid in the D3 diffs, as it is in a number of Euro makes and interestingly BMW used to recommend it be changed every two years.

I'm guessing Land Rover has ran the vehicles in a temperate environment (the UK) pulled samples for testing at, say, 60,000km and in concert with Castrol, their fluid supplier, extrapolated those results for 120,000km.
Maybe they've run a fleet of them to those service intervals and the lubes tested OK ?

I've proven to myself through oil testing that premium oils can exceed manufacturer recommendations in the right circumstances in engines in good tune using good quality low sulphur fuels, but I'm not convinced of these extremely long life recommendations for other lube compartments with tiny fluid capacities and no filtration.
It smacks of reducing servicing costs for lease customers.

[NavyDiver]

Poking around under my recently aquired D3 today and had a look at the rear diff breather setup (runs up near the fuel filler by the look of it).
I didn't locate the Gearbox/TR breathers as I decided it was more important to attend to a few other minor issues.

So I decided to seek your thoughts as to if a D3 needs any additional attention to Diff, Gearbox & Transfer case breathers?

My D3 is not intended as a long distance tourer and generally I avoid deep water and mud anyway.

Thoughts, comments?

I think it might be a good investment. Looking at a twin breather kit (http://www.extremelimitsoffroad.com.au/prod567.htm) water in any oil is not good. Was going to change Diff oils with my next service, might add it to the new compressor- doh. The Twin kit might allows a fairly neat fix to the this if it is an issue for those who use our D3s as a submarrine:D

[CaverD3]

The D3/4 has good OEM diff breathers no real need for more. As noted the rear goes to above the rear lights the front is at the top of the engine bay behind the radiator and I think the trans mission one is in the firewall behind the engine. If water gets into these then you will have greater problems than water in the drivetrain. You are more likely to get water in the transmission from the oil cooler in the radiator.
There were some issues on earlier models with the diff breather valve caps sticking so if you do anthing you may want to replsce these with filters.