Bleeding Brakes!!!

[custommade]

So I've done all the searches and I'm not new to series Land rovers or bleeding brakes but this thing is really starting to **** me off. Been about 6 months now on and off trying to get a decent pedal in my 2A swb. Never had a problem bleeding till I replaced all the brakes wheel cylinders new pads and drums brake lines and rear pipes. First lot of cylinders I got were **** and leaked got them from FWD Blackburn.

Master is fine I have put a bled nipple in the output and the pedal was solid as a rock.

Brake clamped the hoses at the wheel cylinder end and was still fairly hard bit of flex in the hose but still good.

So the problem seems to be at the wheels, but I've bleed the **** out of these things 15lts of brake fluid over the last six months!!!!!! stuffing around with this thing 6 months and 15lts is ridiculous.

I was thinking it could be the pads not seating in the drum then flexing but it never gets solid I figure once they flexed out they would become solid because the are new and so are the drums there's not much room for flex they rub on minimum adjustment on the snail.

Anyone please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[p38arover]

Threads merged. Don't post the same question in multiple areas.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

....

Anyone please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!There is some advice about bleeding the brakes with the front elevated, however there are two methods you may not have tried.

Pressure bleeding the system and the second one is reverse bleeding.

To reverse bleed, start at the most distant wheel and have the reservoir empty. Using a syringe and tight fitting hose on the bleed nipple. Open the bleed nipple and syringe the fluid into the cylinder. At the same time have someone watch for bubbles rising in the reservoir and to remove fluid as it fills (to stop it overflowing). When there are no more bubbles, lock off the bleed nipple and move to the next closest cylinder and repeat.

Once you have done all four wheels see what your pedal is like.

[isuzutoo-eh]

When you clamp off the wheels at the flex pipe, releasing just one wheel at a time, does one wheel give a different response to the others? If they all feel the same, maybe its an assembly mistake.

Would it work to take off one drum at a time, tighten a ratchet strap around the shoes to stop them popping seals or whatever happens, and getting some one to gently pump the brakes? You might see whats going wrong that way.

Bleeding is fairly easy on these machines so I doubt it's your method.

[JDNSW]

As suggested. Clamp off all three hoses, and confirm you have a rock solid pedal. If not, remember you can bleed at any union. Bleed rear brakes first, one at a time, with adjusters slackened right off, and if necessary clamping the shoes in tight after removing the drums.

Then reclamp the rear hose and do the front ones, one at a time, again, with the adjusters backed right off, and the shoes clamped if necessary. Remember, again, that you can bleed at any union. Do it systematically - if you cannot get the hydraulic system rock solid on a circuit, such as a front wheel, try bleeding at the unions, and consider reverse bleeding.

John

[custommade]

I have done the presser bleeding .I have a pressure bleed kit have tried reverse bleeding but didn't find it to successful just messy and as I said it has rock solid pedal with the clamps on, gets worse as I take each one off have bleed them tacking one clamp off at a time as well. never had this much trouble bleeding a landy before.
Because its solid with the clamps on I figure its at the cylinders but I cant get any air out of them just clear fluid.

[Col.Coleman]

It will be in the adjustment.

If you have the lines clamped, only two shoe's will move. As you release the clamps more shoes start moving giving more pedal travel. If you are getting no bubbles, there are none.

Check your shoes. The rears are leading and trailing on each wheel. Where you put them makes a difference. Make sure snail cams operate the correct way and shoes are perpendicular to the drums. Lift wheel off the ground and adjust snail cam untill it stops the wheel dead, then back off 2 clicks.

Just one incorrectly adjusted shoe out of 8 can make woeful brakes.

CC

[Blknight.aus]

my money says you have the shoes in the wrong spots and you cant get them do adjust up.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/45792-stage-1-county-defender-perentine-brake-warning.html

heres how to check the rears.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

my money says you have the shoes in the wrong spots and you cant get them do adjust up.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/45792-stage-1-county-defender-perentine-brake-warning.html

heres how to check the rears.it's a short wheelbase so not the same brakes as the Defender/110/109

So I've done all the searches and I'm not new to series Land rovers or bleeding brakes but this thing is really starting to **** me off. Been about 6 months now on and off trying to get a decent pedal in my 2A swb. .....

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have done the presser bleeding .
<snip>
Because its solid with the clamps on I figure its at the cylinders but I cant get any air out of them just clear fluid.were the cylinders full before you fitted them up?

[custommade]

It will be in the adjustment.

If you have the lines clamped, only two shoe's will move. As you release the clamps more shoes start moving giving more pedal travel. If you are getting no bubbles, there are none.

Check your shoes. The rears are leading and trailing on each wheel. Where you put them makes a difference. Make sure snail cams operate the correct way and shoes are perpendicular to the drums. Lift wheel off the ground and adjust snail cam until it stops the wheel dead, then back off 2 clicks.

Just one incorrectly adjusted shoe out of 8 can make woeful brakes.

CC

I don't really get what you mean. The pads are fixed in position the only adjustment is the snail and because they are new pads and drums 2 clicks on and they are hard on. Springs are on the right way. you say were you put them makes a difference but you cant move them?

[custommade]

were the cylinders full before you fitted them up?

No they were empty do you think there could be air trapped in the cylinders?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

No they were empty do you think there could be air trapped in the cylinders?You're running out of other options and it is good practice to do when installing new cylinders.

[custommade]

Just to check the fromt cylinders are the 1 1/4 inch and the rears are 1 inch right so big cylinder in the front?

[custommade]

OK so I've gone through the motions again today.

Cranked all the snails out so the drums are all locked up

Put the easy bleed pressure bleeder on (presser in the reservoir and feed fluid) and bled at all the unions and cylinders. Result sponge.

Clamped off all three hoses rock hard pedal.
So bled one at a time taking off and then replacing each clamp. result sponge.

It seems leaving the front clamps on and removing the back ones results in a fairly good pedal, has a little play, could put it down to flex in the rubber hose.

Soooooo.... The problem seems to be mostly the front and at the wheels not in the lines.

Could it be the pads flexing and not making proper contact with the drums. I don't really think so cause they are adjusted out hard up to he drums.

But I cant see how I could still have air in them. I have bled them the old school way as well(pump the pedal) and bled them the old waywith the ezybleed on too.

Whats going on!!!!

[JDNSW]

Bleeding will be more effective with the shoes clamped together so that the pistons in the cylinder are as close together as possible - this minimises the space that can get air in it in the cylinder. But if, as you say, the shoes are new, there will be little difference, although this "little" may be critical.

Have you tried reverse bleeding the front brakes? (Force fluid in the bleed nipple and out the master cylinder using an oil syringe).

John

[custommade]

Bleeding will be more effective with the shoes clamped together so that the pistons in the cylinder are as close together as possible - this minimises the space that can get air in it in the cylinder. But if, as you say, the shoes are new, there will be little difference, although this "little" may be critical.

Have you tried reverse bleeding the front brakes? (Force fluid in the bleed nipple and out the master cylinder using an oil syringe).

John

I may have to give the reverse bleeding another go found it hard last time to get a good seal on every thing. Where do you get big syringes from?

[JDNSW]

I may have to give the reverse bleeding another go found it hard last time to get a good seal on every thing. Where do you get big syringes from?

When I did this (it was a clutch not brakes, but same thing) I used a syringe sold by any auto supplies place for filling gearboxes etc (If previously used for this it must be scrupulously cleaned before using on hydraulic systems). They are not very expensive. I think I found some plastic tubing that fitted both the syringe and the bleed nipple, but it was a couple of years ago and I can't remember for sure.

John

[chazza]

When you bled the brakes in the conventional manner, did you try stamping on the pedal as hard as you can?

This was a trick told to me by a LR mechanic years ago and I have triumphed with the method twice. The S2A handbook I had said to "...depress the pedal smartly." which means the same thing.

Try it and if it doesn't work, then maybe the wheel cylinders are letting air in past the seals,

Cheers Charlie

[zulu Delta 534]

If your problem happens to be air trapped in the system and you haven't moved it by conventional means, try this foolproof method.
Select a glass jar with an air tight lid.
Fit two plastic tubes through the lid (one long and one short -making an airtight seal once again.)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/01/972.jpg
Fit the long tube to the vacuum suction pipe on the carburettor.
Fit the other short tube to the appropriate brake bleeder.
Start the engine and run up to about 800 RPM.
Undo the bleeder screw and watch the fluid suck into the clear jar.
When all bubbling stops, go to next wheel. Don't forget to top up fluid levels!)
The difference between doing it this way and pressure bleeding is that suction will remove trapped air whilst pressure bleeding will only sometimes pressurise and compress the same trapped air.
Give it a go. It will only cost you a bit of time and the cost of enough plastic tube to reach each corner of your car.
If you still have spongy brakes then the problem is elsewhere!
Regards
Glen

[AdsLandies]

Not sure how similar your brake set-up is to a Series III, but I had a hell of a time trying to get a good pedal feel on my Series III a while back (after changing the rear wheel cylinders). After many varied attempts to bleed the system over a period of about a year, it eventually turned out to be the shoe adjustment. It seemed that when trying to adjust the shoes back to their proper position after bleeding, the "snails" also moved the shoes off centre. Eventually sorted it out by going for a drive and doing some hard braking to centre the shoes properly. Parked it, jammed a piece of timber between the brake pedal and seat box so the brakes were on hard, and went under and wound out all the snails so they held the brakes fully on. Then released the brake pedal, went around jacking up each wheel one by one and turned back the snails till the "brake rubbing" sound just stopped. Result was a good hard pedal, and been great ever since.
Good luck, I know how frustrating it is.
Adam.

[dandlandyman]

I notice one problem that hasn't been mentioned here, but has cropped up before for me. A while ago a friend had a shortie that he could never get good brakes on. It turned out he had referenced a long wheelbase rear wheel diagram when setting up the shoes and springs. They run the springs between the two shoes, but they have two snail cams on each wheel. Shorties only have one snail cam and the spring goes between the leading shoe and the peg on the backing plate. The result was his brakes were awful despite having no air in the system and the adjustment was locked right up. This may not apply in your situation, but it may be useful to someone.

I can't think of anything else obvious that may be doing it. The idea of raising the front of the Landy (mentioned earlier) was for early vehicles when bleeding air out of a CB master cylinder. Good luck.

Dan.
69 2A 88" pet4 (in disguise), 68 2BFC pet6 (dozing quietly), plus others.

[custommade]

Hi all thanks for everyone's help, made the vacuum bleeder today made no difference at all.

I don't think there is air in the system, but a problem at the shoes and drums,but what?

The springs are hooked up post on the shoe to post on the backing plate, what else is there to them.

Maybe something like AdsLandies had going on?

I'm just about of ideas no I AM out of ideas I'm about ready to drop a match on it all!! seriously

[isuzutoo-eh]

Maybe post a more specific location than just your state, and have someone with a few decades Landy experience have a look at it with you. It is sometimes necessary to get a fresh pair of eyes to locate the problem.

[isuzurover]

Hi all thanks for everyone's help, made the vacuum bleeder today made no difference at all.

I don't think there is air in the system, but a problem at the shoes and drums,but what?

The springs are hooked up post on the shoe to post on the backing plate, what else is there to them.

Maybe something like AdsLandies had going on?

I'm just about of ideas no I AM out of ideas I'm about ready to drop a match on it all!! seriously

If you clamp all 3 hoses, the pedal should be rock hard and right up at the top. Is that the case???

If the pedal goes down more than 1/4" in the above case, you need to adjust the actuator rod.

If the above is all ok, try clamping each wheel cylinder with a g-clamp. While clamping the hoses to any other wheel cylinders. This will make the cylinders minimum volume - making it easy to get any air out. If the brakes are still rock hard when the wheel cylinders are clamped, then it can only be adjustment.

You should also be able to tell when you bleed each side if a clear stream of fluid is coming out of if it spurts out (still has air in it)???

[custommade]

Maybe post a more specific location than just your state, and have someone with a few decades Landy experience have a look at it with you. It is sometimes necessary to get a fresh pair of eyes to locate the problem.

Thanks. I have a few decades of landy experience.

[custommade]

If you clamp all 3 hoses, the pedal should be rock hard and right up at the top. Is that the case???

If the pedal goes down more than 1/4" in the above case, you need to adjust the actuator rod.

If the above is all ok, try clamping each wheel cylinder with a g-clamp. While clamping the hoses to any other wheel cylinders. This will make the cylinders minimum volume - making it easy to get any air out. If the brakes are still rock hard when the wheel cylinders are clamped, then it can only be adjustment.

You should also be able to tell when you bleed each side if a clear stream of fluid is coming out of if it spurts out (still has air in it)???

I have done all of the above. read the thread

[custommade]

Read in the haynes manual at the end of the braking section in fault finding it says:

Symptom: Pedal feels springy

Reasons: Brake linings not bedded into the drums after fitting new ones.

Anyone had this with new shoes? And would they be that bad?

[isuzurover]

I have done all of the above. read the thread

Sorry I tried to help.

FYI I did read the thread before posting. I cannot see where you state how much free play you have with all 3 clamped? There should be no noticeable "hose flex" that you refer to.

You say you have bled 15L of fluid, but not if you are still getting bubbles?

I cannot see where you state you have clamped the cylinders (rather than the hoses)?

If you have "3 decades of LR experience" you should know how to adjust linings by now. I have never had problems with "lining flex". I have however had plenty of adjustment issues over the years.

If there is no air in the system, you should be able to pump the pedal a couple of times and get a hard pedal. Can you? If so, you should be able to hold your foot on the pedal and it will not go down.

[custommade]

Sorry I tried to help.

FYI I did read the thread before posting. I cannot see where you state how much free play you have with all 3 clamped? There should be no noticeable "hose flex" that you refer to.

You say you have bled 15L of fluid, but not if you are still getting bubbles?

I cannot see where you state you have clamped the cylinders (rather than the hoses)?

If you have "3 decades of LR experience" you should know how to adjust linings by now. I have never had problems with "lining flex". I have however had plenty of adjustment issues over the years.

If there is no air in the system, you should be able to pump the pedal a couple of times and get a hard pedal. Can you? If so, you should be able to hold your foot on the pedal and it will not go down.

Thanks for you insight. I'm not the only person to have problems with "lining flex". its been talked about on other forums plenty. I know how to adjust the shoes and yes there is heaps of air bubbles coming out
that's why I think there is NO air in the lines. I've been working on cars and bikes for nearly 30 years I'm not a ****ing retard, just cause it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it cant happen.

[isuzurover]

Thanks for you insight. I'm not the only person to have problems with "lining flex". its been talked about on other forums plenty. I know how to adjust the shoes and yes there is heaps of air bubbles coming out
that's why I think there is NO air in the lines. I've been working on cars and bikes for nearly 30 years I'm not a ****ing retard, just cause it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it cant happen.

Thanks for all your kind words and answers to all my questions.

I bow to your superior knowledge of landies.

[Col.Coleman]

Thanks for you insight. I'm not the only person to have problems with "lining flex" . its been talked about on other forums plenty. I know how to adjust the shoes and yes there is heaps of air bubbles coming out
that's why I think there is NO air in the lines. I've been working on cars and bikes for nearly 30 years I'm not a ****ing retard, just cause it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it cant happen.

MMmmm...

With all that experience I am at a loss as to why you needed to ask for advice.

Good luck with your brakes and replies to any further requests for assistance.

CC

[custommade]

Thanks to all.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I'm just about of ideas no I AM out of ideas I'm about ready to drop a match on it all!! seriously

Go for it. Nobody else will have any ideas for you now.

[series3]

Go for it. Nobody else will have any ideas for you now.

I don't know.. waste of a good series?

[87County]

....
I'm just about of ideas no I AM out of ideas I'm about ready to drop a match on it all!! seriously

... stick in the market place ? :D

[abaddonxi]

Don't know the first thing about Series, but when I replaced my hard brake lines on my 130 I had no end of trouble because the brake place I bought the unbent but crimped brake line didn't check the originals I provided and gave me imperial nuts rather than metric. They seemed to fit, but it was enough to stop it from sealing.

Couldn't get a hard pedal and took forever to work it out.

[custommade]

Well I don't think its air got the Mrs to give em a nice hard press and sounds to me like the shoes are flexing in the drums somehow they seem to fit the drums but I haven't checked them all yet. I'm taking it to a local brake guy who will radius grind the shoes and check the round on the drums. So ill post up the results when hes done

[Ratel10mm]

Ok, I am tearing my hair out after trying to vacuum bleed my brakes today.

Is the bleed nipple on the front wheels (11" brakes) really supposed to be tight behind the track arm? So tight, I can't get a 6mm hose on without kinking the hose?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/1344.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/1345.jpg

Seems even using the reverse bleed method sin't going to work too well in this circumstance.

Are the braked supposed to be oriented with the brake cylinders at front & rear instead of top & bottom, or somehwere in between?

[isuzurover]

Ok, I am tearing my hair out after trying to vacuum bleed my brakes today.

Is the bleed nipple on the front wheels (11" brakes) really supposed to be tight behind the track arm? So tight, I can't get a 6mm hose on without kinking the hose?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/1344.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/10/1345.jpg

Seems even using the reverse bleed method sin't going to work too well in this circumstance.

Are the braked supposed to be oriented with the brake cylinders at front & rear instead of top & bottom, or somehwere in between?

Your pic shows the brakes as they should be.

Yes - the nipples can be a PITA to access and an even bigger PITA to bleed.

I would try adjusting the linings up until they are solid against the drums then bleeding. You should get a rock solid pedal. Then back the linings off.

[gromit]

I had a lot of problems with my Series 1 brakes some years ago (which reminds me it must be time to flush the brake system).

Most of the problems I had have already been discussed, the father-in-law who worked in the brake industry came round to help out and solved the problem.

Apply some chalk to the brake shoes, re-fit the drum and rotate by hand while the adjuster is operated to apply the brakes. Take the drum back off and check for witness marks in the chalk on the shoes.
With mine it was only making contact at one end of each shoe so we hand filed the linings and re-tried a few times until we got a good contact area.
The drums hadn't been machined but were worn, the linings were new but somewhere there was a mis-match in the dimensions.
This along with a couple of different bleeding techniques got the brakes working OK. First was to pump the pedal many times to pressurise the system and then undo the bleed nipple, the other which has already been mentioned was to open the nipple and get someone to really jump on the pedal.

Anther tip I was given (after the event) was with the Series 1 master cylinder be very careful how it's assembled. There are a couple of small holes drilled in the piston, you must make sure one of the holes is in a vertical position when assembling (allows air bubbles to easily get through the master cylinder).

Best of luck,


Colin

[jerryd]

I recently put new shoes, drums and cylinders on my dormobile. I'm a complete novice so my neighbor helped me bleed the system and adjust the shoes. The brakes were a bit spongy (but no air) so we adjusted the brakes so they were tight and then I drove for about 5 kilometers with the brakes on.
We then re adjusted the brakes, bled the system again and now the brakes work perfectly :) They pull up straight too which is a bonus !!

[isuzurover]

I recently put new shoes, drums and cylinders on my dormobile. I'm a complete novice so my neighbor helped me bleed the system and adjust the shoes. The brakes were a bit spongy (but no air) so we adjusted the brakes so they were tight and then I drove for about 5 kilometers with the brakes on.
We then re adjusted the brakes, bled the system again and now the brakes work perfectly :) They pull up straight too which is a bonus !!

With 109" brakes and 110 clutches it is often impossible to get all the air out, but you can get enough out to have an acceptable pedal. Then over 1-2 days of driving the remaining air seems to find its way out of the system (I assume up to the reservoir)

[Sth65pacific]

Thanks for this invaluable advice.

I am going bald trying to get a decent pedal height. I'll just put up & shut up for now & give it all a re-bleed after a drive or two.:cool:

I have a hundred other pressing tasks to do & hours & hours on brake bleeding has been as bad as staring at paint drying except more frustrating.

Ian



With 109" brakes and 110 clutches it is often impossible to get all the air out, but you can get enough out to have an acceptable pedal. Then over 1-2 days of driving the remaining air seems to find its way out of the system (I assume up to the reservoir)

[Ratel10mm]

Ezyrama came round on Saturday & we bled the brakes at last. We gave up on the vacuum pump method as for some reason it just wouldn't play ball & did it the old fashioned way.
To get around the access issue shown above, we took off the steering linkage.

I put it back this evening, put on the wheel, and guess what? The blasted brakes are firmly on on that wheel! I have backed the snails right off, checked the return springs aren't broken, and looked at the cylinders - they appear to be retracted.
Could I have done something to cause this when replacing the steering linkage, as before the bleed this brake was fine?