Advice needed with making front recovery points – 110 County

[I Love My Landy!]

G’day all,

I am in the process of trying to make some recovery points on the front of my 110 County for snatching and to connect a winch cable when using a snatch block. There doesn’t seem to be too many options with my bull bar, however I do have one idea that I would like to get opinions on please (I know there are many people on this site that know a thing or two about recovery points).

My bull bar (unknown brand) has two pieces of steel tubing welded into the front uprights (which is made out of 6mm steel plate) in line with the chassis rails (please see photos 1 and 2). The internal diameter of the tubing is 20mm which just a little too narrow to fit the pin from a 4.75 tonne bow shackle, so what I am thinking of doing is using a 19mm high-tensile bolt secured through the bow shackle instead. Is this an acceptable and strong way of using the bow shackle? Also, does this section of the bull bar look strong enough for this? I would make two recovery points and use an equaliser strap when snatching, but use only one when doubling back a winch cable.

Thank you in advance!

Edward :)

[Bearman]

G'day Edward, The tube section of the bullbar certainly looks strong enough for a recovery point. It's in line with the chassis rails which makes it ideal. How much difference is there in the diameter of the shackle pin and the tube section diameter. If it is only minimal it may be better to drill/file the tube section and use the proper shackle pin as using a bolt could compromise the rigidity of the bow shackle.

[long stroke]

It might be worth checking how well the bullbar is mounted to the chassis as well, wouldn't want the whole bar coming off on you:D

TIM.

[I Love My Landy!]

Thanks Bearman.


It's in line with the chassis rails which makes it ideal.

Yeah, which makes me think that's what the tube sections were put there for. But being too narrow to fit the pin puzzles me.


How much difference is there in the diameter of the shackle pin and the tube section diameter. If it is only minimal it may be better to drill/file the tube section and use the proper shackle pin as using a bolt could compromise the rigidity of the bow shackle.

From memory the shackle is about 22mm in diameter, so more than filing would be needed to fit the pin. I would have to cut the old tube out and weld in a larger piece. But yes something like that could easily be done.

Edward :)

[I Love My Landy!]

It might be worth checking how well the bullbar is mounted to the chassis as well, wouldn't want the whole bar coming off on you:D

Thanks Tim.

Yep the bull bar is properly mounted with high tensile bolts.

Edward :)

[roverrescue]

Force = stress x area
F = 800 (assuming 8.8 bolt) x pi x (19/2)squared
F = 226,000N double this as youll be in double shear ~ 450,000N (45tonne if you must)

I reckon a 19mm HT bolt will just about scrape in as being strong enough ;)
Problem may be the "fit" of a 19mm bolt within the bow shackle.

Bolts are strong, its what we do with them that counts.

Steve

[Tank]

G’day all,

I am in the process of trying to make some recovery points on the front of my 110 County for snatching and to connect a winch cable when using a snatch block. There doesn’t seem to be too many options with my bull bar, however I do have one idea that I would like to get opinions on please (I know there are many people on this site that know a thing or two about recovery points).

My bull bar (unknown brand) has two pieces of steel tubing welded into the front uprights (which is made out of 6mm steel plate) in line with the chassis rails (please see photos 1 and 2). The internal diameter of the tubing is 20mm which just a little too narrow to fit the pin from a 4.75 tonne bow shackle, so what I am thinking of doing is using a 19mm high-tensile bolt secured through the bow shackle instead. Is this an acceptable and strong way of using the bow shackle? Also, does this section of the bull bar look strong enough for this? I would make two recovery points and use an equaliser strap when snatching, but use only one when doubling back a winch cable.
Thank you in advance!

Edward :)
First up, the shackle pin hole in your recovery point needs to be in the vertical axis so as the shackle can swivel in line with the direction of pull, in the situation pictured the shackle body would be pulled sideways against the pin causing damage to the pin and shackle body. It is highly unlikely that that you would ever have a straight line of pull in a real life situation, shackles are DESIGNED to ONLY be pulled in a straight ahead line.
You often read that you should undo the shackle pin a half-turn from fully locked so that the pin will be easy to undo after a pull, this is because the shackle body can distort if pulled off centre. With the shakle pin in the vertical axis the shackle body can align itself with the direction of pull and no undue stress is placed on the pin or shackle body. Repeated use of shackles with the pin in the horizontal axis will eventually lead to failure of the shackle.
If you use a bridle strap for winching or snatching, use the longest possible strap/cable/sling to keep the angle formed to well below 90 degrees preferrably below 45 degrees, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

A quote from page 70 of the Riggers Guide re: Shackles

"Shackles are designed to take vertical forces only. Diagonal forces will strain the shackle and lead to eventual failure."
Regards Frank.

[I Love My Landy!]

Thank you Frank and Steve for your very informative replies.


First up, the shackle pin hole in your recovery point needs to be in the vertical axis so as the shackle can swivel in line with the direction of pull, in the situation pictured the shackle body would be pulled sideways against the pin causing damage to the pin and shackle body. It is highly unlikely that that you would ever have a straight line of pull in a real life situation, shackles are DESIGNED to ONLY be pulled in a straight ahead line.
You often read that you should undo the shackle pin a half-turn from fully locked so that the pin will be easy to undo after a pull, this is because the shackle body can distort if pulled off centre. With the shakle pin in the vertical axis the shackle body can align itself with the direction of pull and no undue stress is placed on the pin or shackle body. Repeated use of shackles with the pin in the horizontal axis will eventually lead to failure of the shackle.
Regards Frank.


A quote from page 70 of the Riggers Guide re: Shackles

"Shackles are designed to take vertical forces only. Diagonal forces will strain the shackle and lead to eventual failure."
Regards Frank.


Frank, your explanation makes total sense. This did cross my mind, however I also thought that if the horizontal orientation of a bow shackle on a tow bar hitch receiver was acceptable (see attachment), then it might also have been acceptable in my application. Or is the tow bar hitch receiver based on poor design? (Perhaps the angle of pull from a tow bar hitch receiver is not usually excessive?).

Edward :)

[BigJon]

I made a towbar receiver recovery point similar to that (to suit my ARB bar on my RRC). I made it so that the shackle is 90 degrees to the one pictured to account for sideways loads.

[Tank]

Edward, you can buy a tow hitch like yours with the tow hitch pin in the other direction, or you can drill yours to suit, I think BMKal redrilled his.
The only explanation I have heard for having the Shackle Pin axis in the horizontal line is 1. that it looks better ????, 2. the shackle doesnt flop about.
Not good enough reasons if you want your shackles to last, Regards Frank.

[I Love My Landy!]

I made a towbar receiver recovery point similar to that (to suit my ARB bar on my RRC). I made it so that the shackle is 90 degrees to the one pictured to account for sideways loads.

Was this for the front or rear of your vehicle?


Edward, you can buy a tow hitch like yours with the tow hitch pin in the other direction, or you can drill yours to suit. Regards Frank.

That wasn't my tow hitch, just a photo I copied from the net, but it does seem odd that they are designed in that way. I just had a quick squiz in a 4WD magazine and noted that ALL the competition vehicles using bow shackles as front recovery points had them mounted horizontally.

Edward :)

[Tank]

Was this for the front or rear of your vehicle?



That wasn't my tow hitch, just a photo I copied from the net, but it does seem odd that they are designed in that way. I just had a quick squiz in a 4WD magazine and noted that ALL the competition vehicles using bow shackles as front recovery points had them mounted horizontally.

Edward
Does that make them right, if most people do it wrong does that make it right.
The riggers guide book on page 70 says:

"Shackles are designed to take vertical forces only. Diagonal forces will strain the shackle and lead to eventual failure."
So in the majority of cases "Ignorance is Bliss,", Regards Frank.

[I Love My Landy!]

Does that make them right, if most people do it wrong does that make it right.
The riggers guide book on page 70 says:

"Shackles are designed to take vertical forces only. Diagonal forces will strain the shackle and lead to eventual failure."
So in the majority of cases "Ignorance is Bliss,", Regards Frank.


No argument with you there Frank, just trying to say that I find it strange that manufacturers design recovery points with such a flaw.

By the way thanks for searching that book to find that information.

Edward :)

[BigJon]

Was this for the front or rear of your vehicle?



Rear. The ARB rear step bar for the RRC has a very long towbar tongue (square bit) and it also is not horizontal (slopes upwards towards the rear).

The one I made has a down turn at the end to get the shackle perpendicular to the ground and as noted has the shackle mounted vertically, not horizontally.

At the front I currently have one tow hook (off a 6 tonne Isuzu truck) mounted to the bullbar. When I source one I will fit one on the other side as well.

[uninformed]

Frank,

what if he mounts the shackle like his pics and then uses another shackle in the bar mounted one which would cause the 2nd to be mounted verticaly like you suggest...this would give some freedom of movement both in vertical and horizontal plains.

IMO using a bridle is a good opiton and should be wire rope with a snatch block (pulley) to allow the required freedom of movment...

[Tank]

Frank,

what if he mounts the shackle like his pics and then uses another shackle in the bar mounted one which would cause the 2nd to be mounted verticaly like you suggest...this would give some freedom of movement both in vertical and horizontal plains.

IMO using a bridle is a good opiton and should be wire rope with a snatch block (pulley) to allow the required freedom of movment...
It would'nt make much difference esp. if the line of pull was a fair way off centre, it's not often you will find an anchor point directly in front or rear of you.
If you look at most ARB bars with towing lugs on the bar with horizontal pin holes you will find they are bent inwards.
When a shackle is pulled other than vertical or straight ahead the pin becomes jammed in the horizontal pin hole and the body of the shackle is pulled sideways against the pin, as the damage gets worse the pin no longer lines up with the thread/hole in the shackle body, this will eventually lead to total failure of the shackle and you dont want a shackle body flying through the air on the end of a snatch strap, Regards Frank.

[slug_burner]

These are sold and will have the same problem

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I suspect that the shackles must be strong enough to tolerate the binding on the shackle pin otherwise these would not sell.

Perhaps frequent replacement of shackles is the way around it.

[I Love My Landy!]

These are sold and will have the same problem

http://www.troutbecksales.com/images/disco12p1.gif

I suspect that the shackles must be strong enough to tolerate the binding on the shackle pin otherwise these would not sell.

Perhaps frequent replacement of shackles is the way around it.

Just out of interests sake, since this topic arose I've looked into many of the bow shackle recovery points that are being sold, and the vast majority of them have the pin mounted horizontally (like in the photo above). Seems strange that manufacturers will design them with such a flaw. I reckon most people (me included) would not be aware that bow shackles are not meant to be mounted horizontally.

Edward :)

[I Love My Landy!]

If anyone is interested in that rigging book Frank mentioned, part of it can be viewed here:

http://www.riggingtraining.com.au/Rigging/rigging_guide_part_1.pdf

(Funnily enough I found the link on this site!)

Edward :)

[Tank]

Just out of interests sake, since this topic arose I've looked into many of the bow shackle recovery points that are being sold, and the vast majority of them have the pin mounted horizontally (like in the photo above). Seems strange that manufacturers will design them with such a flaw. I reckon most people (me included) would not be aware that bow shackles are not meant to be mounted horizontally.

Edward :)
Think about it for a moment, "D" and "Bow" shackles are designed to connect a sling /tow strap to a load, Bow shackles are designed to take 2 or more eyes of the sling in the bow, the pin which threads in to the Bow body attaches the shackle to the load (or to a crane hook). Now if you apply tension in a sideways or not directly ahead direction, the pin is canted sideways and jambs against the hole, the sling eyes slide around to the side of the shackle body and pull against the thread on the pin and in the body. As the shackle is designed to only be pulled from the centre directly ahead, then this sideways tension distorts the pin and the body of the shackle and would more than likely bend those would be (if they could be) excuses for mounting points. You ask why they manufacture these recovery points and sell them, well look at the construction, easy, simple and cheap to manufacture, that is the main criteria, profit above actual usefullness.
You can buy recovery points that have the pin hole vertical, swivel type eye bolts, bolt on hooks. I have seen many correct type recovery points on the Dakar rally cars lately.
Just because someone (who BTW doesn't have to meet any Govt. safety regs. or standards) brings out a recovery point that goes against the laws of Physics doesn't make it right, there was a supplier/manufacturer advertising on this Forum horizontal pin hole recovery points, I sent him a number of emails asking the reasoning behind his design and if he had any recovery points with a vertical pin hole, guess what no replies after many emails. Use commonsense when buying recovery equipment, test a shackle in a horizontal recovery point, pull sideways on it and see what stresses are applied and think if this thing breaks do I want to be at the other end of the sling when it does, used properly a shackle will outlast you, bend it and it will eventually fail, most likely when you need it most, Regards Frank.

[jakeslouw]

What about these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Terrafirma Terrafirma Jate Rings | Accessories - Jate Rings Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=60&grp=295)

[I Love My Landy!]

What about these:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:XB5jpY7pxEd0FM:http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/attachments/f8/20421d1236614941-how-mount-set-jate-rings-rrc-jate-rings.jpg&t=1

Terrafirma Terrafirma Jate Rings | Accessories - Jate Rings Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=60&grp=295)

Thanks jakeslouw.

I've been thinking about using jate rings on the rear of my 110, but I hear mixed reports about them. Apparently the British Army uses them (the original brand), however I do know of two Sydney Land Rover parts outlets who no longer sell them as they believed they were unsafe.

Edward :)

[jakeslouw]

How about these?

Lifting Bow Shackle - Standard Pin - SWL 4000Kg - Stainless Steel | S3i (http://www.s3i.co.uk/Lifting-Bow-Shackle-Standard-Pin-SWL-4000Kg-Stainless-Steel.html)

[slug_burner]

Tank,

I agree totally with what you have pointed out.

Perhaps fashion or minor inconvenience is the driver here.

Due to the way the chassis are designed it is easier to pass a fastener horizontally through the chassis rails and attach a plate or those jate rings so that the plates are verical and therefore any hole for a shackle ends up with its axis in the horizontal plane. Once this was done initially others just followed.

Even the eye bolts are often seen with the hole of the eye with the axis in the horizontal plane. There are some that swivel but most don't. Once againt the shackle hangs down from the horizontally orientated pin.

I'd say that somewhere in that rigging handbook there is going to be something that requires you to inspect your gear before use. As I said pehaps they get around the problem by replacing the shackles often?

At least the towbar neck/tounge has the hole in the correct plane for the use of a shackle.

[Tank]

Slug, as far as inspecting a shackle goes, first see if the pin will unscrew or screw up with no binding, if the pin is hard to do up or undo then the body of the shackle is distorted and is on the way out. Check for heavy nicks/cuts in pin and body, small nicks can be filed off large deep nicks can be dangerous, mostly use commonsense, if it don't feel right don't use it, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Tank,

I agree totally with what you have pointed out.

Perhaps fashion or minor inconvenience is the driver here.

Due to the way the chassis are designed it is easier to pass a fastener horizontally through the chassis rails and attach a plate or those jate rings so that the plates are verical and therefore any hole for a shackle ends up with its axis in the horizontal plane. Once this was done initially others just followed.

Even the eye bolts are often seen with the hole of the eye with the axis in the horizontal plane. There are some that swivel but most don't. Once againt the shackle hangs down from the horizontally orientated pin.

I'd say that somewhere in that rigging handbook there is going to be something that requires you to inspect your gear before use. As I said pehaps they get around the problem by replacing the shackles often?

At least the towbar neck/tounge has the hole in the correct plane for the use of a shackle.
I think most copied the Army vehicles like APC's, Tanks, etc., the lugs (Horizontal) found on these vehicles were designed for lifting the vehicle during construction or loading onto ships, trains etc. Regards Frank.

[Boof Ed]

Tank,
While I agree completely with the side load issue you've pionted out, other than beaches most recoveries won't be straight ahead vertically either. Albeit to a lesser degree usually.

http://www.dap-inc.com/acc/acc-img/winch/BA2682-swivel-shackle.jpg

Anyone used these? Ive not seen them before, just a quick google search.

[Tank]

Tank,
While I agree completely with the side load issue you've pionted out, other than beaches most recoveries won't be straight ahead vertically either. Albeit to a lesser degree usually.

http://www.dap-inc.com/acc/acc-img/winch/BA2682-swivel-shackle.jpg

Anyone used these? Ive not seen them before, just a quick google search.
Boof, not quite sure what you mean, if you mean winching/recovering on a steep slope, then usually both vehicles are at the same angle, unless one vehicle is over a vertical cliff face, am I reading your post right, if so rotating eye bolts solve all the problems, Regards Frank.

[Loubrey]

Boof,

I've used the swivels you've posted before. I've attached a picture of the swivels built into a Scorpion Racing winch bumper. They are the same swivels minus the mounting block and they worked very well with a bridle. I had a couple occasions where I had to fetch mysel out using the winch and a snatch block back to the bridle. Their strength lies in the fact that they are mounted directly in line with the chassis and the bumper fixings.

On the rear I had 2 of the block swivels you posted with T braces welted onto backing plates and bolted to the main chassis rails (I didn't use their back block).

Long story short, if you can get them I can recommend them. Just remember to have a long hard think about spreading the load where you mount them.

[Terrain Vehicles]

Jate rings are very safe and secure and used a lot here in the UK. Especially if used with a recovery bridle.

Another alternative is similar to one mentioned above. It's a swivel recovery eye that you can bolt on to the bumper. Costs £60. (+ 10% discount for forum members ;) )

[woody]

Someone might be able to shed some light on the suitability of these?

SWIVEL BOLT-ON RUD PP-B M36 8T (05957283) | Blackwoods (http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/PartDetail.aspx?part_no=05957283)

Bolt-on Swivelling Eye PP-B (http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/infoBANKProduct.aspx?SG=2000165&S=4084686&G=2004019&P=2025874)

http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/Image.aspx?part_no=05957283&imgno=1&imgsize=168

[Tank]

These are the type of mount that should be used, I would look for one with a longer thead. Main thing is though that where attached to bullbar/chassis should be reinforced to take the load and this is where you will need a longer threaded section