DIY oil change on a PUMA - Don't use just any old oil

[spudboy]

I got started on this when I took my PUMA in to Solitare for some final warranty work (New Vacuum Pump) and thought I'd get them to do a first oil change at the same time.

They quoted me $730, being mainly made up of 6.3 litres of oil for $172.90 and Labour of $435.60, the rest for the filters etc.

I thought this reminded me of why I try and service my vehicles myself and just bought the filters (oil filter: $20, fuel filter: $57 and feeling like they were probably still doing a nice profit on them).

I rang Castrol to find out what oil to use and got on to a good tech who helped a lot. He said you MUST use the Land Rover specified oil, and they can tell if you haven't (if it comes to a warranty claim). It has special ash properties or something technical. He stressed a number of times NOT to use something you just get from SupaCheap or Repco, they will not do the job.

The proper oil is Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 (Code 119563). The only other Castrol alternative that is acceptable is Edge Sport 0W-40 (code 119779 - apparently not the same as the standard Edge Sport you might get from Repco etc.)

So - I have just ordered a 20L drum of SLX from their SA distributor for $232 + GST. So, buy it yourself for $12.76/L or get Solitaire to supply it for $27.44/L - Hmmmmm

Anyway, any other PUMA owners thinking of just chucking in something you've got lying around your shed (like I was before I rang Castrol) please take note ;)

Cheers
David

[Loubrey]

Cheers Spudboy!

Just happened to be on the exact same topic today and after a lot of web searching found that exact same Castrol Specification.

I used to have a Golf GTD (Mark 5 UK Specification) as a company car and it used very similar oil and it's complete warranty void if you put anything different in.

Puma owners have a look at this link to Castrol Australia for all the "correct" oils.

Castrol Trade Australia - NetLube (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/CastrolTradeAus/default.asp)

http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/castr_au/default.asp

[rick130]

AFAIK the 'proper' oil is one complying with Ford spec WSS-M2C913-B.

There are a few that meet this spec, here's a reply I gave to someone the other day asking about the gearbox and engine oil specs.


" yep, it uses Castrol BOT130, a special for Ford/Getrag that is a full synthetic 75w-90 GL-4. (VII 211, 15.1cSt @ 100*C, I can email the data sheet if you want it, have it on file, just can't recall ATM where I got it from :confused: )
It's a dealer only oil unfortunately.

Depending on the synchro material, any decent syn 75W-90 might be OK, but I have no experience with that box at all so don't know for sure.

I'm guessing BOT130 is only available from Land Rover, Ford and Castrol in a 20l drum.



The Ford engine was supposed to use an oil that met a certain Ford spec for warranty purposes and there were a few oils that met the spec.
IIRC it was a 5W-30 and had to meet the Ford WSS-M2C913-B spec

Oils that meet this are Mobil Super FE Special 5W-30, Shell HELIX HX7 AF 5W-30, Havoline Energy 5W-30, etc. but the crazy part appears to be that most are dealer/trade sale only (eg. 44 gallon drum)
I have no idea what's so special/different about the Ford spec.

FWIW Castrol actually recommend Edge Sport 0W-40 even though it doesn't carry a Ford certification. <edit> to my knowledge</edit>

At the end of the day 10 weeks isn't that long so if the car is serviced before leaving ask the dealer for a couple of litres of engine oil for top off and g/box oil out of their bulk drum to take with you."

[isuzurover]

...

The proper oil is Castrol SLX Professional OE 5W-30 (Code 119563).

The only other Castrol alternative that is acceptable is Edge Sport 0W-40 (code 119779 - apparently not the same as the standard Edge Sport you might get from Repco etc.)

So - I have just ordered a 20L drum...

It is not clear which of these two oils you ordered???

[stig0000]

thats cheap for filters i think???

and yes OE gose into all new disel landrovers now, its for the dpf filters, (yes i do no that defenders dont have one)

[sashadidi]

Good Discussion here:
Defender2 - View topic - Puma oil spec? (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic2167.html)

[spudboy]

It is not clear which of these two oils you ordered???

I ordered the SLX Professional OE.

The Edge Sport was more expensive ($307 + GST) but I gather you can use it in more vehicles than the SLX.

[spudboy]

thats cheap for filters i think???



Ha - they started out at $25 and $70, so I had to haggle them down a bit.

They probably buy them for $10 and $20 each or something.... who knows.

[Loubrey]

A reliable source at Lode Lane, Solihul tells me Australian and South African manufacture's oil specification is much higher than required in the UK due to temperatures and conditions (distances, dust etc).

The Defender 2 forum guys recon semi synthetic Magnatec is the UK specification - Rick130 you agree?

[Naks]

In SA the oil used by the stealers is Castrol Magnatec A1 Professional 5w30 ACEA A5/B5. It conform to the Ford specs for the Defender: WSS M2C-913-B.

Btw, this Ford spec has been superseded by the specs WSS M2C-913-C.

This link gives you some of the oils that conform to the specs: Ford Engine Oil - WSS-M2C 913-C (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1251-wss-m2c-913-c.aspx)

[justinc]

I use the Shell Helix HX7, previously Pennzoil 5W40. yes unfortunately 205litre drum is the only way...

JC

[stig0000]

Ha - they started out at $25 and $70, so I had to haggle them down a bit.

They probably buy them for $10 and $20 each or something.... who knows.
the price u got i would guess would be prity much cost???

[PAT303]

In SA the oil used by the stealers is Castrol Magnatec A1 Professional 5w30 ACEA A5/B5. It conform to the Ford specs for the Defender: WSS M2C-913-B.

Btw, this Ford spec has been superseded by the specs WSS M2C-913-C.

This link gives you some of the oils that conform to the specs: Ford Engine Oil - WSS-M2C 913-C (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1251-wss-m2c-913-c.aspx)

Castrol Mag A1 Pro is also the oil for the Td6 T/D but magnatec or edge sport can also be used.Are the filters the same ones used by Ford?,whats Fords price or can you get them from the UK. Pat

[Loubrey]

Naks, I see that particular Magnatec is full synthetic, so much better than what you regularly buy over the counter in the UK. Your link is obviously UK based and from what I can see the guys on the Defender 2 forum are unnecessarily concerned.

The two specifications used in Australia seems to be basically the Professional for complete oil changes by workshops and the more expensive Edge Sport for top ups. On a DIY approach, getting hold of the "Professional" (or equivalent) seems to be the way forward.

[Naks]

Naks, I see that particular Magnatec is full synthetic, so much better than what you regularly buy over the counter in the UK. Your link is obviously UK based and from what I can see the guys on the Defender 2 forum are unnecessarily concerned.

Not necessarily.

The Magnatec A1 is specifically formulated to reduce fuel consumption, and as such has a low HTHS. A lot of people prefer oils with a high HTHS index because it improves the durability of the engine.

IMHO, I would rather have a slightly higher fuel consumption if it means my engine will last 500Kkm :angel:

This is a particularly good read on the subject: http://www.atiel.org/members/pdf_files/ACEA%20Stow.pdf


So if you want long-term durability instead of fuel economy, it looks like an A3/B4 oil is better ;)

See http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/ACEA2008.html

[rick130]

Not necessarily.

The Magnatec A1 is specifically formulated to reduce fuel consumption, and as such has a low HTHS. A lot of people prefer oils with a high HTHS index because it improves the durability of the engine.

IMHO, I would rather have a slightly higher fuel consumption if it means my engine will last 500Kkm :angel:

This is a particularly good read on the subject: http://www.atiel.org/members/pdf_files/ACEA%20Stow.pdf


So if you want long-term durability instead of fuel economy, it looks like an A3/B4 oil is better ;)

See European Engine Oil New Specification Sequences of ACEA2008 - European Engine Oil - The Lubrizol Corporation (http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/ACEA2008.html)

I've always been iffy about low HTHS oils too, but if an engine is designed around a low HTHS oil I doubt very much if there will be a wear/durability concern. (at least for the warranty period :D)

If you look at the Stow document it details how Ford used 6 Transits with the 2.4 HDCi engine under delivery service, heavy load, severe operation using 60,000km oil change intervals (120,000km total distance) and after engine teardowns and used oil analysis showed no significant issues.

As far as I understand it the main reason for the C1 to C4 oils is the very low phosphorous (zinc) levels for the DPF's but the Ford C1 spec is very low, something like 0.05% phosphorous (which apparently translates to around 0.055% zinc)

From this Penrite PDF http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/discovery-2/27739d1281651253-good-value-oil-td5-owners-acea-c1-c4-enviro-applications.pdf

For all these grades, the oxidation, deposits and oil life parameters are similar to A3/B4 but
special tests are added for wear protection using different engines.

Out of warranty I'd be really tempted to use an ACEA E6 (heavy duty) low saps oil whose phosphorous level is <0.08%. (equal to a C2/C3 oil)

[rick130]

[snip]

The Defender 2 forum guys recon semi synthetic Magnatec is the UK specification - Rick130 you agree?

Mate, I have no idea ?

Any link to its specs ?

What I do know is that Castrol's product names and blends often vary significantly from market to market.

[jake]

G'day Eveyone,

The owners handbook states what oil to use, As is the case then would it not be right to use the oil as specified in the hand book, I also had a look at the data lube link for both Castrol and Penrite

Castrol recommends the 0W 40 Sport Edge, Penrite recomends a 0 W 30. Yet last year Penrite recomended their HPR Diesel 5. Which is now a 5 W 40 athough it states this is compatable to a 5W 30.
I think I am a little confused on this.
Can I use either of the above.

Jake (hope my confusion has not confused anyone else):)

[spudboy]

Hi Jake,

Just call Castrol on their 1300 number (1300 557 998 I think) and have a chat to one of their techs. They were very clear when I rang: SLX Professional OE or Edge Sport 0W-40 only.

If you want to use Penrite or another brand, just ring their tech line.

LR put in Castrol so I reckon that's the one to use, but if you use something equivalent I'm sure you'll not notice any difference.

[NQExplorers]

Local LR dealer here uses Shell Ultra 5w40.

[miky]

Adelaide LRA dealer uses SLX 5W-30
$174 of it...

.

[miky]

The bill was $559.10 somewhat less than spudboy's quote of $730


.

[Defender13]

Hey guys,
just an update on current oil specs for the new MY2013 Defender, 2.2 L Puma:

New oil must be compliant with:
SAE 5W-30 & ACEA C1 & WSS-M2C-934-B (Ford)

Your options in S.A. are:
1) - Castrol Edge Professional C1 5W-30, supplied by Solitaire LR Service into your own container (or you buy 205 litre drum:p), quite an expensive option around $24 / 1 L,

2) - LiquiMoly TopTec 4500 / 5W-30, Autobarn's supplied 5 L bottle @ $100,

3) - FUCHS TITAN GT1 PRO C1 5W-30, Cavan Agricultural Agencies, $190/20 L carton of 5 x 4L bottles (you have to buy a carton)

All prices include GST.

I prefer Fuchs, excellent oil quality, very good service at Agencies, and good price.

[Defender13]

No probs, any time.
Frank

[rover-56]

I am a bit uneasy about upgrading to these hi tech engines (and maybe gearboxes), the costs for ordinary service items seem a little steep, and the cost of getting the oil spec wrong is frightening.:o

But the I had the same thoughts before buying the TD5

I suppose the price will drop when the current crop of engines are replaced by the next generation youbeaut 100kw/litre diesel engines in the future.:D

Good luck with those Pumas:)

Terry

[Defender13]

Hi rover-56,
yeah it's a bit frustrating with all those Euro 4,5,...:nazilock: regs but I am sure that the future engines will come only like that. Regarding cost - if you can do it yourself, it's ok. Service is expensive - but that applies to all present day cars, :mad:.
So far my experience with that "little" Puma is really good and service seems to be very easy - UK parts are really cheap in comparison with most of the local pricing. Also, it is always possible to negotiate a bit with local guys, so a little shopping is always good.
I was lucky to obtain from good old internet the workshop manual for Puma models 2.4 L (same as 2.2 essentially - just different bore - almost 1300 pages...;)).
Regarding the new "hightech" oils - they are actually good, last very well - balance btw. life and cost is pretty comparable with more "traditional" engines and oils.
Now we are facing a sad fact that Defenders are at the end of their manufacturing life - accordingly to dealership, the orders for Oz are not taken in anymore (about 3 weeks old info) unless there are some existing leftovers. The Defender MY2015 shall come - we'll see how will it look. So far it was really :censored:ugly.
Regards
Frank

[rover-56]

Hi rover-56,
yeah it's a bit frustrating with all those Euro 4,5,...:nazilock: regs but I am sure that the future engines will come only like that. Regarding cost - if you can do it yourself, it's ok. Service is expensive - but that applies to all present day cars, :mad:.
So far my experience with that "little" Puma is really good and service seems to be very easy - UK parts are really cheap in comparison with most of the local pricing. Also, it is always possible to negotiate a bit with local guys, so a little shopping is always good.
I was lucky to obtain from good old internet the workshop manual for Puma models 2.4 L (same as 2.2 essentially - just different bore - almost 1300 pages...;)).
Regarding the new "hightech" oils - they are actually good, last very well - balance btw. life and cost is pretty comparable with more "traditional" engines and oils.
Now we are facing a sad fact that Defenders are at the end of their manufacturing life - accordingly to dealership, the orders for Oz are not taken in anymore (about 3 weeks old info) unless there are some existing leftovers. The Defender MY2015 shall come - we'll see how will it look. So far it was really :censored:ugly.
Regards
Frank

All true, I remember the D2 TD5 seemed dealer dependent at first, but now after 10 years of ownership it is like a comfortable old pair of boots.

From what I read on here the Puma driving experience makes it all worthwhile.

Terry

[Defender13]

Hi Terry,
yes 2.2L feels very good in Defender and seems to have a very good reputation around the world. Being the most sold engine with Ford Transits says a bit as well.
It is no racer but it just goes anywhere with ease - that's exactly what I want. Btw. I use it daily for work too and it's fine - I am for sure not the slowest in the lane :D.
Frank

[voltron]

I'm surprised the oil is so thin. For Australian heat and conditions I would have thought it be a little heavier. Has anybody had oil pressure issues when cruising in typical Australian heat.

[Defender13]

Hi Voltron,
the low viscosity and other specs are due to emission control and turbo unit. Other than that doesn't seem to have any issues. These oils are very stable and reliable (hence the price :mad:). I am running in heavy peak traffic daily inclusive the recent heat wave and temperature doesn't even show any difference and it's pretty quiet - well, for a Defender :D.
I still need to check in some more serious terrain though.
Frank

[voltron]

A South Australian heat wave will def test it. I just figure turbos add more heat to the oil and it's all coming from the motor.

If I don't have DPF then can I use an alternate oil??

[Defender13]

Hi Voltron,
you're right, no Defender with Oz specs has DPF (good news!) however it is DPF ready (bad news!). Based on my research for reasons and specifications I found that this oil (C1 spec) is actually the best because:
1 - stability of the formula,
2 - doesn't break oil film under harsh conditions,
3 - blow-by-gas is much cleaner - note the cyclone style oil separator on the rocker cover as well,
4 - the oil has an actual water cooler/ heat exchanger just above oil filter(!)
5 - it is much less messy when it comes to cat converter,
6 -proven life time (oil changes in EU after 20K kms, in Australia 15K kms - LR/Ford recommendations (although Solitair wants 12K kms) - all that for Castrol C1; I think Fuchs might be better but I will use 10K to 12K kms - subject to checking and driving conditions),
7 - no depositing on sensitive surfaces (e.g. turbo bearings = long life span).
I gues that will do....:)
Frank

[Defender13]

I forgotten one more thing - EGR:

C1 oils claim to have (and it seems to be "confirmed" from around the world) much lesser impact on EGR valve, that is it stays much cleaner, than the other oils can do.
Also on Puma 2.2 & 2.4 L engines the EGR return line is water cooled as well, it helps a bit, too.
Well, I think that concludes the oil story. The hard proof will be in use in the near and more distant future.:)
Frank

[ozrob]

I found this information from Castrol
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/m/Magnatec_5w40_B1802_05.pdf
Castrol Magnatec 5W-40
Recommended for the following passenger car models, Jaguar XJR, XJ8, XK8, XKR 3.2, 4.0, 4.0 Litre Supercharged
Land Rover Defender, Discovery, Freelander – Petrol and Diesel
including Td5
I personally would prefer a 40 grade oil for Australia.
Castrol Magnatec - Product (http://www.castrolmagnatec.com.au/castrol-magnatec-diesel-5w-40.php)
My owners manual only states :
Castrol 5W-30....no reference to ford specifications....are the ford specifications only related to the EU???
As long as I use Castrol Diesel Magnatec there should be no issues as the owners manual does not specify the exact specification oil.

[PhilipA]

Hmm I don't know.
The owner handbook in a D2 TD5 recommends 5-30 right up to the max temp of 45C or whatever, whereas the V8 recommendation is 40 or 50 at high temps.
Last year Honda started recommending 5-20 in the USA including texas.

I am considering Nulon 5-30 Diesel full synthetic for my D2 TD5 .

The question is whether oils have progressed to the point that the thinner oils do the same job as thicker did in years gone by.
I know I went back from 50 to 40 in my RRC with 200KK on it simply because I couldn't get 50 in Derby and the oil consumption was unchanged even at 40c temps on the way back to Sydney via Longreach which was HOT.
Regards Philip A

[scarry]

I would stick with the manufacturers specs,i am sure they know more about the oils and engines than any of us.......except maybe Rick130:p

[rick130]

Hmm I don't know.
The owner handbook in a D2 TD5 recommends 5-30 right up to the max temp of 45C or whatever, whereas the V8 recommendation is 40 or 50 at high temps.
Last year Honda started recommending 5-20 in the USA including texas.

I am considering Nulon 5-30 Diesel full synthetic for my D2 TD5 .

The question is whether oils have progressed to the point that the thinner oils do the same job as thicker did in years gone by.
I know I went back from 50 to 40 in my RRC with 200KK on it simply because I couldn't get 50 in Derby and the oil consumption was unchanged even at 40c temps on the way back to Sydney via Longreach which was HOT.
Regards Philip A

5W-20 has been the standard grade from all the major manufacturers in the US for the last several years.

It works, and also helps them meet the fleet fuel economy mandate (CAFE, corporate average fuel economy)

IMO an xW-40 is nicer in a TD5 thanks to the unit injectors, and a dedicated HDEO (diesel oil) is better again.
Oils like Mobil 1 10W-30 don't have a high enough HTHS IMO to prevent lobe wear with the unit injectors.

[edit] I forgot to add that my own experience with super light weight engine oils twenty years ago in race engines (equivalent to 0W-20 or lighter, there was no equivalent SAE range then) pointed out that running clearances and finishes had to be tailored to suit too, otherwise increased bore wear and bearing cavitation erosion would result.

[rick130]

I would stick with the manufacturers specs,i am sure they know more about the oils and engines than any of us.......except maybe Rick130:p

I know bugger all Paul, or enough to be dangerous, and these manufacturer specs are changing so quickly it's almost impossible to keep up :(

[Defender13]

I found this information from Castrol
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/m/Magnatec_5w40_B1802_05.pdf
Castrol Magnatec 5W-40
Recommended for the following passenger car models, Jaguar XJR, XJ8, XK8, XKR 3.2, 4.0, 4.0 Litre Supercharged
Land Rover Defender, Discovery, Freelander – Petrol and Diesel
including Td5
I personally would prefer a 40 grade oil for Australia.
Castrol Magnatec - Product (http://www.castrolmagnatec.com.au/castrol-magnatec-diesel-5w-40.php)
My owners manual only states :
Castrol 5W-30....no reference to ford specifications....are the ford specifications only related to the EU???
As long as I use Castrol Diesel Magnatec there should be no issues as the owners manual does not specify the exact specification oil.

Hello guys,

Perhaps this helps a bit:

Guide to Engine Oil Claims and Specs Top Tech (http://www.scribd.com/doc/184384912/Guide-to-Engine-Oil-Claims-and-Specs-Top-Tech)
- here see the right hand columns - bottom half - Ford Specifications


http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/10617_Castrol_EDGE_Professional_C1_5W-30_3372271_2011_09.pdf
- here see page 4 of 5

BTW, this is for Puma 2.2 L only, I do not know the exact requirements for Puma 2.4 L - there might be a difference and I strongly recommend to check the specs with LR.

Regarding the UE specs - no, I am afraid this is a global spec, mate, sorry.
These engines are used all over the world in many vehicles, not just Defenders. They have all their own tweaks but the basics are the same. That includes the oils spec. I agree with PhilipA below that LR says on their Topix page (if you are registered user, you have access there) just SAE 5W-30; however the service instruction and LR requirement says also C1, otherwise the warranty will void :mad:
My Defender is still under warranty. I changed my first oil (Fuchs C1) and it runs really well, so I'll keep it that way.
Frank

[Defender13]

I meant EU not UE,:D:D:D

[Defender13]

Hello guys, just a quick update on this C1 oil. So far I drove about 2000 km on it including the last weeks heat wave with daily temps above 42 degrees an average.:BigThumb:
The results are so far more than promising. My engine runs very smoothly, temp gauge is just below half range (as always), performance is perfect.
This one might be subjective but I think it's a bit quieter - at least enough to be noticed by me :)
I drove it in various conditions and it is always the same - no issues, excellent run. I'll update this info after another about 3000 - 4000 kms.
Frank

[Defender Mike]

My dealer in Perth Southern Landrover told me to use Magnetic if I want to change at 10,000ks they only do 20.000 k free service. I did the filter and oil at 30,000 and it ran very well on the magnetic but they got me to come in and change it again after only 3000 ks because it was 12 months since the last dealer service.
Mike:)

[tuesdayfox]

Hi All,

dealer use Castrol LSX profession OE 5-30 on non-PDF puma defender
and
this product is discontinued and replaced by Castrol EDGE Professional OE-X
source: http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/5237_SLX_Professional_OE_5W-30_119562_2007_10.pdf

I purchased 20Lt OE-X for $199 south of Sydney....
:cool:

Cheers
Martin

[tuesdayfox]

oops

this is the correct PDF for OE-X

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/10615_Castrol_EDGE_Professional_OE-X_5W-30_3374979_2011_10.pdf

[Foxtrot]

Hello guys, just a quick update on this C1 oil. So far I drove about 2000 km on it including the last weeks heat wave with daily temps above 42 degrees an average.:BigThumb:
The results are so far more than promising. My engine runs very smoothly, temp gauge is just below half range (as always), performance is perfect.
This one might be subjective but I think it's a bit quieter - at least enough to be noticed by me :)
I drove it in various conditions and it is always the same - no issues, excellent run. I'll update this info after another about 3000 - 4000 kms.
Frank



Defender 13,

How have you found the Fuchs C1 now after a few more km's? I changed the oil on my 2013 2.2 with the Penrite Enviro + C-4 5w-30 Full Synthetic Oil and had it removed after 3000km as the engine was noticeably nosier.

According to Penrite, this product meets the specs and they couldn't provide any more info as to why the engine was noisier.

I want to change the oil every 5000km, however looking for a product that provides a smoother engine than the Castrol OE-E professional.

[Naks]

edit: this is on a 2.4 Puma

I have been using the Fuchs Titan SuperSyn F 5w30 (http://www.fuchsoil.co.za/automotive/titan-supersyn-f-sae-5w-30/), which meets the Ford specs, since Jan 2013.

Truck definitely runs more smoothly than when it was on the Castrol crap.

[Nera Donna]

I did my first ‘home service’ on my 2008 2.4 at 30,000ks. Changed oils, filters etc.
I used
Liqui-Moly Top Tec 4500 5w-30 in the engine.
Liqui-Moly HYPOID-GETRIEBEOL (GL5) 85W-90 in the differentials.
Liqui-Moly HOCHLEISTUNGS-GETRIEBEOL (GL4+) 75W-90 in the transfer case.
Liqui-Moly have no recommended manual transmission oil for this vehicle.
Filters: Britparts service kit. Included all filters and sump plug.
Note: Fuel filter is a little dodgy the way it is held in the housing/filter head.
Results.
Engine running quieter – Not noticeably
Engine running smoother – Appears to run smoother
Better fuel economy – Appears to be better. Have not done the calculations yet
Engine running cooler – Not noticeably
Gearbox and gear changes are noticeably smother and quieter.
Remembering I have not changed the gearbox oil yet, only changed the transfer case and differential oils.
My summary:
This oil is expensive, but I am pleased with the results. Will I use this oil next time? Defiantly.
Britpart filters. Their OK, they appear to do the job, only time will tell. Might look another brand of fuel filter next time?

[Defender13]

Defender 13,

How have you found the Fuchs C1 now after a few more km's? I changed the oil on my 2013 2.2 with the Penrite Enviro + C-4 5w-30 Full Synthetic Oil and had it removed after 3000km as the engine was noticeably nosier.

According to Penrite, this product meets the specs and they couldn't provide any more info as to why the engine was noisier.

I want to change the oil every 5000km, however looking for a product that provides a smoother engine than the Castrol OE-E professional.





Hi Foxtrot,


as mentioned in my message to you today, this oil meets all the expectations I had and by far exceeds the Castrol. Based on your comment above - make sure (this is an engineering recommendation :)) that you use C1 spec as mentioned before in this thread. It has to do with the turbo used on this engine - I recommend to read the specs of C1 certified oils (and Ford's specs for that matter) to understand the details. The rule of thumb is that is much cheaper to use correct oils spec than to replace turbo :(! Also EGR, if you are still having it enabled, is suffering less because of this spec. It generates (C1 oil) lesser volume of ashes and other rubbish that kills the EGR valve prematurely.
I hope this helps, Foxtrot.


For all other Landy fans - after about 15000 kms the performance is excellent, engine run is smooth, very quiet, temperatures perfect no matter what ambient conditions. It is now official that for time being this is my oil of choice :D.

[Tombie]

Without doing Oil analysis these comments are essentially useless...

Pre change, post change and ongoing...

How do you any of you know that your engines are not wearing bearings faster / slower etc. etc.

Simple answer is: You don't...

[Tombie]

Defender 13,

How have you found the Fuchs C1 now after a few more km's? I changed the oil on my 2013 2.2 with the Penrite Enviro + C-4 5w-30 Full Synthetic Oil and had it removed after 3000km as the engine was noticeably nosier.

According to Penrite, this product meets the specs and they couldn't provide any more info as to why the engine was noisier.

I want to change the oil every 5000km, however looking for a product that provides a smoother engine than the Castrol OE-E professional.

Firstly - Changing at 5k is unnecessary...

Secondly - Oil spec for 2.4 and 2.2 is very different... Check before you change!

[Defender13]

Without doing Oil analysis these comments are essentially useless...

Pre change, post change and ongoing...

How do you any of you know that your engines are not wearing bearings faster / slower etc. etc.

Simple answer is: You don't...





Hi Tombie,
which comments in particular - can you point them out, please.
Regarding wear and tear - noise, temperature, consumption and EGT are pretty good indicators on wear when comparing use in similar conditions - providing the maintenance schedule is ok, :).
Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine. Engine will wear in time - and so anything else involving friction etc.
And yes, 2.2 and 2.4 Pumas are different, hence caution with maintenance is appropriate ;).

[isuzurover]

...
Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine. ...


This is a very naive statement, and likely incorrect in many cases.

Light passenger vehicles (this includes Landrovers) are considered disposable items by the manufacturers. Service intervals these days are either a guess or are set largely by consumer expectation and willingness to pay (e.g. air filters are usually changed too frequently). Many items are "sealed for life" when they should not be if you want to maximise life. Another thread points out that the D3 e-locker diff has an oil capacity that is too small for the manufacturer's service interval.

The same vehicle can have completely different service intervals in different markets - due mainly to market expectations.

All heavy vehicles base service intervals on oil analysis.

At $20 or so a go vs the high cost of modern oils, oil analysis is cheap insurance.

[Tombie]

Hi Tombie,
which comments in particular - can you point them out, please.
Regarding wear and tear - noise, temperature, consumption and EGT are pretty good indicators on wear when comparing use in similar conditions - providing the maintenance schedule is ok, :).
Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine. Engine will wear in time - and so anything else involving friction etc.
And yes, 2.2 and 2.4 Pumas are different, hence caution with maintenance is appropriate ;).

Good questions:

Noise: Subjective, but we can agree that there is a good chance if it sounds quieter it likely is, so no big issue there. Except for a single question - Why is it quieter? Thicker oil? Better shear performance - a tight tolerance engine shouldn't rattle if the correct spec lubricant is used.

Temperature: Measured where? Using the normalised temperature gauge? Certainly not very scientific! Considering a functioning cooling system should sustain engine temp regardless of the changes made by running varying oil of 'similar' spec.

Consumption: Oil or Fuel? Fuel consumption increase can indicate drag from the oil. Change in driving habits, change in vehicle configuration, ambient operating temperature or journey style changes. Too easy to have variability.
Oil consumption can indicate worn engine, incorrect oil or other issues. I've not owned a vehicle that chewed oil in 20 years...
I would expect a properly bedded in Tdci to not be consuming oil in any noticeable volume.

EGT: Only indicative of the A/F ratio and load the engine is under.

and then your closing comment:

Friction: Heres one you can not easily answer without oil analysis. Are the bearings being worn away? Piston rings? Bores? How would you know?
Oil analysis is how. Yes, eventually the engine will wear - but how soon? This is why oil analysis is done, to enable reliability engineers and condition monitoring specialists to predict when, what, why and how something is wearing.

They look for the signs of wear early - and an increase in an element is usually indicative to wear inside the engine (gearbox, transmission, hydraulic system etc).

These suck it and see, she'll be right because I service it and it sounds quieter posts gain nothing, and demonstrate nothing. Its highly likely most people will move the vehicle on before the wear is even starting to become an issue.

Claiming that "Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine." Is a HUGELY naive claim

Sealed for Life ZF transmissions are a prime example where this is not the case.

Another flaw in the statement is you are not using the OEM specified oil, that the manufacturer tested the design with and approved.


And there I was thinking that these reliability guys were onto something, when all it needs to do is "sound quieter, and run the same temp" :angel:

[Grappler]

Firstly - Changing at 5k is unnecessary...

Secondly - Oil spec for 2.4 and 2.2 is very different... Check before you change!

The oil spec 5W/30 – WSS–M2C913–B or C is the same for 2.4 and 2.2 non DPF motors. See LR spec sheet attached

Total Quartz ticks all the spec. boxes for non DPF and Ive been using it for intermediate oil changes on 2.2 Puma and for servicing my TDV6. Its cost much less than the Castrol with the same spec.

[Dougal]

This is a very naive statement, and likely incorrect in many cases.

Light passenger vehicles (this includes Landrovers) are considered disposable items by the manufacturers. Service intervals these days are either a guess or are set largely by consumer expectation and willingness to pay (e.g. air filters are usually changed too frequently). Many items are "sealed for life" when they should not be if you want to maximise life. Another thread points out that the D3 e-locker diff has an oil capacity that is too small for the manufacturer's service interval.

The same vehicle can have completely different service intervals in different markets - due mainly to market expectations.

All heavy vehicles base service intervals on oil analysis.

At $20 or so a go vs the high cost of modern oils, oil analysis is cheap insurance.

Oil analysis should also put to bed these 5,000 and 10,000km change intervals.

[Grappler]

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be:angel:
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

[Defender13]

Good questions:

Noise: Subjective, but we can agree that there is a good chance if it sounds quieter it likely is, so no big issue there. Except for a single question - Why is it quieter? Thicker oil? Better shear performance - a tight tolerance engine shouldn't rattle if the correct spec lubricant is used.

Temperature: Measured where? Using the normalised temperature gauge? Certainly not very scientific! Considering a functioning cooling system should sustain engine temp regardless of the changes made by running varying oil of 'similar' spec.

Consumption: Oil or Fuel? Fuel consumption increase can indicate drag from the oil. Change in driving habits, change in vehicle configuration, ambient operating temperature or journey style changes. Too easy to have variability.
Oil consumption can indicate worn engine, incorrect oil or other issues. I've not owned a vehicle that chewed oil in 20 years...
I would expect a properly bedded in Tdci to not be consuming oil in any noticeable volume.

EGT: Only indicative of the A/F ratio and load the engine is under.

and then your closing comment:

Friction: Heres one you can not easily answer without oil analysis. Are the bearings being worn away? Piston rings? Bores? How would you know?
Oil analysis is how. Yes, eventually the engine will wear - but how soon? This is why oil analysis is done, to enable reliability engineers and condition monitoring specialists to predict when, what, why and how something is wearing.

They look for the signs of wear early - and an increase in an element is usually indicative to wear inside the engine (gearbox, transmission, hydraulic system etc).

These suck it and see, she'll be right because I service it and it sounds quieter posts gain nothing, and demonstrate nothing. Its highly likely most people will move the vehicle on before the wear is even starting to become an issue.

Claiming that "Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine." Is a HUGELY naive claim

Sealed for Life ZF transmissions are a prime example where this is not the case.

Another flaw in the statement is you are not using the OEM specified oil, that the manufacturer tested the design with and approved.


And there I was thinking that these reliability guys were onto something, when all it needs to do is "sound quieter, and run the same temp" :angel:

Hi Tombie and Isuzurover,
I'll put this reply together - I hope you don't mind guys. Thanks for comments and here is my final comment as short as possible. (I didn't realise there will so much response on this subject).

Noise - different thickness of oil with the same SAE number is nonsense - no offence. There are other factors influencing noise rather than just "thickness".

Temperature measurement on these tiny engines is just fine where it is - no science required here.

Consumption - both of course, I didn't realised I have to even mention that,
sorry.

EGT can actually indicate more than that under same driving and ambient conditions, i.e. injection system issues, engine wear. No time and space to explain now.

Friction and oil analysis - I am not sure what is your background but for this size of engines it is not practical, sorry. You're right when it comes to medium / large trucks and other "large" equipment. Not for small cars. Also to say that the maintenance schedules are out of the blue numbers based on consumer markets requirements shows quite a lack of information and knowledge; again no offence.
I said when "driven in similar conditions" - that is comparing apples with apples. Also, I didn't realise (for Isuzurover) that it is necessary to mention that maintenance conditions are SPECIFIC for each geographic region and for specific working conditions of the vehicle in its class - I assumed anybody interested already knows that.
Reliability engineers (I work with) in automotive and defence industries do their work for reason. But for small cars it means setting regional schedules for maintenance amongst other things etc. Oil analysis is just one of many complimentary tools/methods to do that.
Regarding the "flaw" of not using the OEM oil - sorry mate, it is OEM rated and approved oil, that is ACEA C1 and WSS-M2C934-B standards compliant. Even if the car is not DPF equipped it is still compliant, read the standard and LR specs, please.
As mentioned, I use C1 one oil because is cleaner than ACEA A1/B1 and ACEA A5/B5 oils. The name Castrol here means nothing, just a brand name.

Useful link: Ford Oil and Oil for Ford from Opie Oils (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-694-ford-engine-oil.aspx)
:D

[isuzurover]

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be:angel:
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

That is a strawman argument. The laws of physics do not change for landrovers or light vehicles. If you give the oil analysis firm your original oil specs they can tell you the degredation and even if it should be changed.

[Defender13]

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be:angel:
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

Good comment mate,

I'll start with this attachment (pdf file).
20000 kms is good for EU, perhaps. But fuel in Oz is really bad and in comparison has quite a variation as well, hence your conservative choice is safe at least.
I will use 12000 to 15000 intervals depending on load and area. The more outback and load - the more frequent change. Major truck OEMs are doing this adjustment for their products, too. It's based on many factors and statistics and also with oil analysis check to adjust the data - for them this make good sense. LR is suggesting 12000 km in Australia - verbally only :D.

[85 county]

think oil is just oil. try puting the wrong stuff in a isuzu 3.0 turbo ( jakaroo)

[Tombie]

Funny, fuel companies might disagree with that statement too...

I understand your reasoning after all what would Isuzurover or myself know about these engines, oil testing or reliability...

And please feel free to regale me of your knowledge of EGTs, SAE oil flow characteristics etc - I've been suffering insomnia for some time...

And remember 2 compliant oils can still have different chemical composition, just have to meet the criteria of the spec, anything else is outside that...

At the end of the day, I'm not overly concerned what you do with your vehicle.

[Grappler]

That is a strawman argument.

I dont think so.

This subject is loosing objectivity -Ill leave you to it.

[isuzurover]

...But fuel in Oz is really bad and in comparison has quite a variation as well, ...

Bulldust. This gets repeated frequently on here but is completely untrue.

Australian National Diesel Fuel Quality Standard (legally enforceable).
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)

EN590 standard (Current EU Standard)
EN 590 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only significant difference is the EU permits up to 7% bio whereas Australia is 5% (for fuel labelled as diesel).

Variations between EU countries is MUCH greater than in Australia where only a few refineries supply all of our diesel. E.g. BP WA supplies all commercial pump diesel (sold by all brands of servo) in WA from Exmouth to Esperance.

[Blknight.aus]

Bulldust. This gets repeated frequently on here but is completely untrue.

Australian National Diesel Fuel Quality Standard (legally enforceable).
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/topics/environment-protection/fuel-quality/standards/diesel)

EN590 standard (Current EU Standard)
Video Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590)

The only significant difference is the EU permits up to 7% bio whereas Australia is 5% (for fuel labelled as diesel).

Variations between EU countries is MUCH greater than in Australia where only a few refineries supply all of our diesel. E.g. BP WA supplies all commercial pump diesel (sold by all brands of servo) in WA from Exmouth to Esperance.

It's up to 10% not 5...

Most of the problems with au fuel is from the place its stored not what comes out of the refinery.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Forum Runner

[Defender13]

Exactly as written above - it is irrelevant what comes out of a tap in refinery as that almost always complies with current standards; what counts is what is in a tank at some outback servo :D.

[isuzurover]

...

Most of the problems with au fuel is from the place its stored not what comes out of the refinery.

...

Hate to break it to you, but the whole world has that problem, not just AU.

IME fuel contaminated by dirt/water/microbes is rare.

Btw - WTF does that have to do with service intervals for oil changes. Fuel filter change intervals sure, but oil???

You guys who use criminally short oil change intervals are really clutching at straws for reasons now, and have left science behind a long time ago...

[85 county]

sheesh this thread is a dog.

back in the day, of gray and red motors. changing your oil often was a smart thing to do. and just about any thing that resembled an oil worked.


going back even further ( and i have build and run 8 of these "N")
the Gnome Monosoupape used Carstor oil becouse it didnt burn. but still a motor rebuild was every 10 hours.

back to the red Gray, change your oil every 10K KLM and you got 100 000 klm out of your bottom end, asuming a pistion didnt part or an oil ring cracked in the meen time. and that was good going.

today oil is more advanced or has become more advanced over the last 20 years than over the previouse 60 years. but there is still crap cheep oil out there. some of it in the same bottle ( almost)

todays quality oils can and do last over 100 ooo klms. oil testing is brilliant.

oil changes is just one way a car dealer can value add to a sale.

now i do not think over changing the oil will damage your puma. it will only damage your back pocket.

But if you have the $$$$ for that much oil then you can spend $38. at cav power ( SA ) and see what the real deal is.


USA seems to be a sop Ford Transit Connect Wagon Service, Repairs, Maintenance | Orlando (http://orlandotruck.com/Service.aspx'd=871)

[Psimpson7]

Ok, sorry to put up another post about Puma oil. This is doing my head in!!

Mine is almost at 10k km now and I want to change the oil and filters. I already have the filters but need to source the oil.

before I go and buy a 20l drum of the below, can anyone confirm its correct / usable / ideal! for a 2.2 non dpf puma.

Fuchs Lubricants (Australasia) Pty Ltd - Home (http://www.fuchs.com.au/ProductDetail.aspx?product_id=38692&product_name=TITAN%20GT1%20PRO%20C-1%20SAE%205W-30&product_code=4197&product_category=Passenger%20Car%20Engine%20Oil;)

[scarry]

It is bloody confusing,wait until you want to change the G/box oil.....

Dunno about Fuchs,

but you can use this,available in 5L containers,Synpower FE.(not 2.4l Puma,only 2.2l)

MR auto use Valvoline in all the LR's they service.


Valvoline Australia - NetLube (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_auMS/default.asp)

[Psimpson7]

Thanks Paul, I will have a look at that Synpower FE.

[DFNDR90]

FYI - changed all oils on my MY11 Defender 90 2.4 TDCi last week.

Note - 86000km's (assume an 'easy' life) with no modifications.

Oils used
************************************************** *************************
- Engine 2.4TDCi - Valvoline Synpower FE Engine Oil - 5W-30

124018

************************************************** *************************
- MT82, LT230Q & Front/Rear Rover Differentials - Penrite Pro Gear Oil - 75W-90

124019

Plus Nulon G70 Gearbox & Differential Treatment (quantity as per packaging for MT82 & LT230Q, leftovers shared between diffs)

124020

Pumped in using one of these - ToolPro Utility Oil Pump

124021

************************************************** *************************

Only had the car from 85000km's so not much point comparing before and after. [thumbsupbig]

Hope that helps someone! [smilebigeye]

[bsperka]

Btw: I use the diff oil container to directly move the oil from the container to the diff and auto fluid on D2 in a similar fashion. How?
I have a cap with a tyre valve stem (no valve) and the transfer hose threaded through it. Pressurise the container with air from a 12v air compressor - air in, oil out. Air off - oil stops flowing. Air leaks around stem and hose allow excess pressure to bleed out. No decanting, no oil spills, no additional container to clean (just the hose). Simplez.