urgent td5 head advice please!!!

[jimbob]

Hi All, I am in the middle of the head gasket job on my td5 defender 130. Every thing was going great untill i picked the head up from the machine shop.:(. They said that they had to takle off 9 thou:o. I specifically told them that if they had to take off more than 5 thou, then to ring me!! Obviously they did not. Harness of head before skim was 117 brinel and after is 105 brinel.

So is my head now stuffed??:mad:

If not will they have to recess the valves? What are the valve heights does any body know?

I have done lots of reading in other posts on this and 5 seems to be the magic number to shave off.

I hope its not stuffed as its our only car at the moment so i need it back asap. It was going back together tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Cheers Jim

[awabbit6]

If they have done a good job, they would have measured the valve depths and re-cut the seats to suit. Was that not done?

How does the hardness of the face compare with the rest of the head? This is more important than how much was removed.

[jimbob]

No not to my knowledge Paul. So are you saying they should of measured before the shave and then set the values to the same measurement to the face after the shave??

Thanks Jim

[Rosscoe68]

i assume you are concerned with valve to piston clearances ?.
i am no engineer here, but IMO 9 though shave on a head should not cause any clearance issues with the valves needing recessing. also it would increase the compression a miniscule amount and not a concern for me. i would be more concerned about the hardness of the head myself.
certainly if the valve clearances were that close that a 9 though shave is going to cause issue, then surely we would have seen td5's with bent valves by now?

[awabbit6]

No not to my knowledge Paul. So are you saying they should of measured before the shave and then set the values to the same measurement to the face after the shave??


Yes. When my head was done this is exactly what my machinist did.


i assume you are concerned with valve to piston clearances ?

Not just the piston to valve clearances but also the compression ratio will be increased. A 9 thou skim equates to approximately 0.5cc reduction in combustion chamber volume due to valve intrusion.

[jimbob]

Yes i am concerned with the valve to piston clearance mainly. I have gone from the 2 hole gasket to the 3 hole gasket. Not sure what the thickness difference is, but this should assist in the clearance and compression situation.

In regards to the hardness, the machine shop said the minimum hardness you need is 67 brinel. But i fail to see how they can say that when they know nothing about these engines eg. the high boost pressure they run and the stress that must put on the head gasket.

Cheers Jim

[jimbob]

I have read that you can get the head re-hardened. Is it the machine shop that normally does this? How long a proceedure is it?

[jimbob]

So any one lnow how i can work out the clearance issue??? Measure how far the piston comes out the top of the block, measure how far the valves come past the face of the head , find out how thick the 3 hole gasket ends up being once compressed and from this work out if the pistons will hit the valves.

Does this sound right???

[jimbob]

pretty please all td5 GURU'S!!!

[justinc]

5 thou is ideal, but 9 thou is fine, hardness layer is closer to 12. The compression wont change as the combustion chamber is in the top of the piston. The valve heights at 9 thou shouldn't be an issue either. Just use a 3 hole gasket. I would be getting concerned about valve heights at 10 thou and over though.

JC

[strangy]

The TD5 compression wont change with a head machine. The combustion chambers are in the piston.
The 1,2 and 3 hole gasket are different thicknesses based originally on piston protrusion from the block.

2 hole is the thinnest then 1 then 3.

I am at work at the moment so cant give you the exact sizes, however there is about 6 thou between each gasket and strangely AFAIK 2 holes is the thinnests then 1 then 3.

Most people end up with 3 holes after machining because its just easy and dont really care about any minute compression change caused by the thicker gasket Not the machining.
The 3 hole also gives you back some valve clearance.
There has been quite a thread here on head gasket choice so do search also.

It is my experience that all machine shops doing a skim will do only that and nothing more unless you ask.

If none have posted the Gasket thicknesses by the time I get on tonight I have them around 2200 Nt time

cheers

[jimbob]

Thats Great news thanks JC. I am a little concerned with the hardness, but if 9 thou had to come off then the head was stuffed any way. My main concern was the valve clearances to pistons, But if they are ok then i have nothing to loose by putting it back together except a few gaskets and a few hours.

To be sure can i put it all back togther then turn the motor by hand? Will this give me an indication or not?

[jimbob]

2 hole is the thinnest then 1 then 3.
I am at work at the moment so cant give you the exact sizes, however there is about 6 thou between each gasket and strangely AFAIK 2 holes is the thinnests then 1 then 3.

Ok so going off that, I had a 2 hole to start with and am getting a 3 hole, then i have increased head gasket thickness by 12 thou. So because i have lost 9 thou off my head i have still increased the distance between the valves and the pistons by 3 thou.

[strangy]

Ive just checked the info I have. Paddock Spares, Rover Parts and Turner engineering all have the same data
I always found it odd that their info said thickness went 2, 1, 3. anyhow....
1 Hole - 1.27mm
2 Hole - 1.20mm
3 Hole - 1.35mm

There is a 0.0059" difference between thinest to thickest. (say 6 thou)
1 inch equals 25.4 mm

So you have only have 3 thou to be concerned with and in my opinion this shouldnt be a problem, but others may differ here.

I cant answer the hardness question with any certainty so better off being quiet.:p

hope this is some help.

[awabbit6]

The TD5 compression wont change with a head machine. The combustion chambers are in the piston.


There is more valve head in the space between the piston and head so it will increase the compression ratio by reducing the total combustion chamber volume by (approx) 0.5cc

Not a huge change, but something to be aware of.

[George130]

I wouldn't be to concerned.
My old engine's head was welded and then skimmed. The water galeries had become part of the combustion chamber when we took the head of. I never knew how much of a skim they did. It went 100,000km before the turbo jamed for max boost and coupled with an over fuel killed itself.

[Rosscoe68]

sorry to thread steal.
dropped my head off today, they reckon it will need about 15-20 thou to take the head gasket ridge away, but assured me that the head hardness is good still.
the head is pressure tested and holds no probs, and there is obvious signs that the gasket itself was leaking thus the blown headgasket fault, not a cracked head.

is this too much to take off ?
they will only do it if i agree for them to reseat the valves to compensate for the valve/piston clearance, which i agree is fine, but just not sure if thats too much to take off the head

[justinc]

sorry to thread steal.
dropped my head off today, they reckon it will need about 15-20 thou to take the head gasket ridge away, but assured me that the head hardness is good still.
the head is pressure tested and holds no probs, and there is obvious signs that the gasket itself was leaking thus the blown headgasket fault, not a cracked head.

is this too much to take off ?
they will only do it if i agree for them to reseat the valves to compensate for the valve/piston clearance, which i agree is fine, but just not sure if thats too much to take off the head

In my opinion, that is almost through the actual hardfacing, and is sailing very close to the wind for reliablility.
I am not a head reconditioner though, and that measurement is information given to me previously about the depth of hardfacing of the factory head. I can't give you a 100% guarantee if this will be a problem or not.


JC

[jimbob]

Thank you all, I feel much more at ease about bolting it together. I have had a bit of a family emergency so it will not get done untill the weekend. I will do some measurments before it is put together.

Will keep all informed on how it goes..

Thanks for all the help.

Jim

[jimbob]

1 Hole - 1.27mm
2 Hole - 1.20mm
3 Hole - 1.35mm


I knew landrover did a few things different but isnt that just a tad backwards???

[jimbob]

I wouldn't be to concerned.
My old engine's head was welded and then skimmed. The water galeries had become part of the combustion chamber when we took the head of. I never knew how much of a skim they did. It went 100,000km before the turbo jamed for max boost and coupled with an over fuel killed itself.


Did the head kill its self or the turbo?? This is the first td5 head i have heard of being welded and 100 000 ks well worth it.

[jimbob]

sorry to thread steal.
dropped my head off today, they reckon it will need about 15-20 thou to take the head gasket ridge away, but assured me that the head hardness is good still.
the head is pressure tested and holds no probs, and there is obvious signs that the gasket itself was leaking thus the blown headgasket fault, not a cracked head.

is this too much to take off ?
they will only do it if i agree for them to reseat the valves to compensate for the valve/piston clearance, which i agree is fine, but just not sure if thats too much to take off the head

Wow and i was concerned with 9 thou. In this situation you would think there would be a valve to piston problem if not dealt with. Hope it works out rosco.

[George130]

Did the head kill its self or the turbo?? This is the first td5 head i have heard of being welded and 100 000 ks well worth it.

It would have been one of the few. At the time eveyone told me it couldn't welded and I was up for a new head. It took 40,000km of ownership to confirm all my problems were the head.
Quotes for a new head ranged from $2-5 grand where it cost me $800 for it to be welded, skimed, valves reseated and custome valve washers made for it (Done through a mate so I had to let the machinist have it for 2 months or he would have charged full rates for the work).

Final death of the engine was due to chronic blow by believed to be carbon in the rings. Treatments arrived in the post the day after it blew.

I was heading up a big hill on the freeway when I noticed the oil pressure guage was not reading much if anything. Then black smoke and steam billowing out of the bonnet and up through the transmission. As soon as I hit the indicator and lifted my foot of the go peddle to role to the side every alarm and dash light went off and the engine stopped dead. I pulled over to see the fire in the bonnet linning go out and the last of the oil and coolent drip from everything. The next day after it was towwed she was seased. Still havn't polled the old engine down yet for a full list of damage. I know the turbo wasy gate was totaly jammed and twisted and no seals left in it so new engine and turbo now live under the hood. I had filled the oil only the day before due to losses.

We still think the head is ok.

[canblogerra]

I've just been through a TD5 head reconditioning myself. I think I've read the entire thread and believe further advice should help.

Firstly I think hardness is a bit of a furphy - nothing is supposed to hit the head so surface hardness, and I mean SURFACE hardness, shouldn't effect performance much at all - or so I reckon.

Secondly, the valve recess (or stand down) is given in the RAVE manual: inlet 0.555 - 0.825mm and exhaust 0.545 - 1.35mm. Easily checked with strait edge and feeler gauges.

Lastly, I wouldn't rely on what was there before to determine the head gasket to use. If without a DTI just lay a strait edge over the piston at top dead centre and using feeler gauges measure gaps to block both sides of the piston. Keep the largest. Repeat for all pistons. Then choose the head gasket according to the manual: protrusion 0.351 - 0.500 = 2 hole; 0.501 - 0.570 = 1 hole; and 0.571 - 0.650 = 3 hole.

If it's not to late best wishes ...

ps - mine had 1 hole and after head and block shave a 2 hole suited!!! maybe the 50 thou' oversize pistons were a nouce lower or ... who knows ... attention to details huh.

The worst of it for me was when I came to tightening up the new head bolts and finding the threads were filthy an f...ed. I had to rip the head off again and find a long tap handle to get down and clean them up.

[jimbob]

I've just been through a TD5 head reconditioning myself. I think I've read the entire thread and believe further advice should help.

Firstly I think hardness is a bit of a furphy - nothing is supposed to hit the head so surface hardness, and I mean SURFACE hardness, shouldn't effect performance much at all - or so I reckon.

Secondly, the valve recess (or stand down) is given in the RAVE manual: inlet 0.555 - 0.825mm and exhaust 0.545 - 1.35mm. Easily checked with strait edge and feeler gauges.

Lastly, I wouldn't rely on what was there before to determine the head gasket to use. If without a DTI just lay a strait edge over the piston at top dead centre and using feeler gauges measure gaps to block both sides of the piston. Keep the largest. Repeat for all pistons. Then choose the head gasket according to the manual: protrusion 0.351 - 0.500 = 2 hole; 0.501 - 0.570 = 1 hole; and 0.571 - 0.650 = 3 hole.

If it's not to late best wishes ...

ps - mine had 1 hole and after head and block shave a 2 hole suited!!! maybe the 50 thou' oversize pistons were a nouce lower or ... who knows ... attention to details huh.

The worst of it for me was when I came to tightening up the new head bolts and finding the threads were filthy an f...ed. I had to rip the head off again and find a long tap handle to get down and clean them up.

Yes that is exactly what i was planning. Back into it today. Fingers crossed.

[jimbob]

One more question, What is the head bolt sequence for a TD5? Cant seem to find it on rave or on here. Any one know what the sequence is??

[Psimpson7]

Sequence as in torque or order?

Torque is

30Nm
65Nm
then a further 90 degrees
then a further 180 degrees
then a further 45 degrees

Order is

Drivers side: ....10 / 6 / 2 / 3 / 7 / 11
front of engine
Passenger side: 9 / 5 / 1 / 4 / 8 / 12

Edited to add this - may be easier:

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/attachments/f7/13857d1265843372-td5-head-bolts-questions-head.jpg

[jimbob]

Thanks every one for all your help. The car was up and running on sun morning. Started up fine but on the first test drive temp climbed very quickly once at operating temp. So the temp was climbing normally up untill about 85 deg then shot up to 97 real fast. I am wondering if it has a cracked head that only opens up and leaks once the head is hot?? Not sure what else to do. Radiator has been out and checked by radiator place. The only two things that have any thing to do with the cooling system that have not been replaced is the water pump and the oil cooler. I dont think these would cause air to get into the cooling system witch I think is happening but not sure because these are a pig to bleed.

I think i will replace the water pump just as a process of ellimination. Then i guess its a new head OUCH!!

Any ones thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Jim

[Psimpson7]

Hi Jim,

I would certainly look at the waterpump (there have been cases where the impeller has mostly gone), and also possibly the thermostat if you haven't already done it.

How are you reading the temperature that accurately?

Rgds
Peter

[jimbob]

Hi Jim,

I would certainly look at the waterpump (there have been cases where the impeller has mostly gone), and also possibly the thermostat if you haven't already done it.

How are you reading the temperature that accurately?

Rgds
Peter

The thermostat was done already but i will certainly check the water pump. The temps i have been getting from Nanocom.

Thanks Jim

[jimbob]

Good news about the cooling system, its not getting over pressurised by the exhaust.

I also had a thought about the viscus fan. Are they meant to lock up once they are hot or do they just get firmer? Mine only gets slightly firmer than when it is cold.

[Rosscoe68]

theres magics inside the viscous fan, don't attempt to decipher how or why they work :)

mine doesn't appear to be any different when hot or cold, however i do hear a louder air movement whir when the engine is warmer than normal so assume thats it kicking in.

[jimbob]

theres magics inside the viscous fan, don't attempt to decipher how or why they work :)

.

Yeah Rosscoe tell me about it, they seem a tad mystical.
I will stick to the water pump idea first up any way.

[jimbob]

Well a water pump that looks like this does not help things.

33051

So on the highway now the temp is lucky to go over 88 deg but when you pull up it slowly climbs up.

I am wondering if the fan is cactus too.

Is there any one with a td5 and a nanocom that could tell me what temp their engine sits at on idle? I guess to compare apples with apples the ambiant temp would need to be around 40 deg.

I feel i am getting closer. you beauty.

[Rosscoe68]

at idle mine sits at about 91 to 93 degrees according to nanocom

[Fluids]

Yep. 88-89 on the road moving, pull over and leave idling, and it's around 91-93 same as Rosscoe. Makes no diff' if A/C is on/off.

2004 D2a Td5

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

theres magics inside the viscous fan, don't attempt to decipher how or why they work :)

mine doesn't appear to be any different when hot or cold, however i do hear a louder air movement whir when the engine is warmer than normal so assume thats it kicking in.

It's easy. On the front of the hub is a thermocouple spring that operates a valve plate inside the hub and is attached internally on a bearing of sorts on the hubs main body. The drive shaft bolted to the pump has a matching plate but is fixed to this hubs centre.
The air temp from the radiator actuates the valve plate to open or close against the hub plate and allows the viscous oil to pass through or be blocked against the valve plate.
When open or when engine is cool it allows the oil to pass and the fan will free wheel. The hotter the air gets the more the spring will wind up closing the valve plates and blocking oil from flowing causing it to lock up and increase drive to outer hub.

Initially the fan will lockup when cold as the oil has a high viscosity when cold so resistance causes it to drive the fan.

See, easy!!! :angel:

Andrew


Sent from my mobile tellingbone using rock carvings.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

at idle mine sits at about 91 to 93 degrees according to nanocom

:eek: :eek2:

Mine sits at 83-86!!

2003 D2a TD5......


Sent from my mobile tellingbone using rock carvings.

[Rosscoe68]

It's easy. On the front of the hub is a thermocouple spring that operates a valve plate inside the hub and is attached internally on a bearing of sorts on the hubs main body. The drive shaft bolted to the pump has a matching plate but is fixed to this hubs centre.
The air temp from the radiator actuates the valve plate to open or close against the hub plate and allows the viscous oil to pass through or be blocked against the valve plate.
When open or when engine is cool it allows the oil to pass and the fan will free wheel. The hotter the air gets the more the spring will wind up closing the valve plates and blocking oil from flowing causing it to lock up and increase drive to outer hub.

Initially the fan will lockup when cold as the oil has a high viscosity when cold so resistance causes it to drive the fan.

See, easy!!! .

exactly like i said
all controlled by magics
its the devil inside i say !!!

[jimbob]

Oh well maybe im just being pedantic then, it only climbs to 92,93 at idle.

Its just that prior to having these head/over heating problems i never remember it getting up that high, except under extreme conditions.

But then i surpose sitting idling is not a time when i would have paid great attention to the temp.

I will give it a couple of days test driving and see how it goes.

Again thank you to all who helped out with advice and info. It would not have been such an enjoyable job with out it.

Cheers Jim

[Rosscoe68]

i must admit, on my first TD5 D2 when i got it, it ran at 86-88 then after i fixed the head and all new hoses and thermostat it now runs at 91-93. pretty much the same as you now face. i put it down to the cooling system not being right beforehand, not the other way round.

i am just going through the same process on the 2nd car, so will wait and see the out come on it. it ran at 87-88. will see how it all comes after head is fixed.

[Rosscoe68]

i was contemplating getting silly and port matching the heads and and manifolds and getting the valve seats smoothed for flow , but then i realised its a deisel and i am a bit older now and don't really need to waste money on that stuff anymore :)

[jimbob]

i was contemplating getting silly and port matching the heads and and manifolds and getting the valve seats smoothed for flow , but then i realised its a deisel and i am a bit older now and don't really need to waste money on that stuff anymore :)

I must be as silly as you Rosscoe, as i was thinking of one of those gadgets that lets the computer run more boost:twisted:. But perhaps i should just let it all settle in for a while first. Thanks for the help mate.

Jim

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Matchporting the turbo to manifold isn't a bad idea though. The size difference is quite significant. Exhaust port at the turbo is quite a bit smaller.
Intake to head won't really make any noticeable difference unless its as badly matched as the V8's are but never seen the porting on the intake on a TD5.
Shortening the runners would make a difference to turbolag however.
Biggest problem is they are only a 2 valve per cylinder setup...


Sent from my mobile tellingbone using rock carvings.

[Rosscoe68]

i don't have a problem with 2 valves per cylinder, i reckon it should have about another liter of engine capacity to push a 2 tonne vehicle though, even turboed :)

i know i know get an isuzu

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

i don't have a problem with 2 valves per cylinder, i reckon it should have about another liter of engine capacity to push a 2 tonne vehicle though, even turboed :)

i know i know get an isuzu

Mmmm.... 4HE1TC...... time for a 9" front & rear, 4" propshafts, new trans tunnel to take the matching box & transfer from the donor truck......

Aaaarrrggghhhhh...... I hate it when I dream......


Sent from my mobile tellingbone using rock carvings.

[George130]

Temps
when not working on the freeway mine runs at 84. Small hill puts it anywhere up to 87. When working hard and hills it can reach 91. I have tested it repeatedly.

[Rosscoe68]

dang
mine goes to 93-94 going up perth hills if its is hot outside

[jimbob]

Just a quick op date. Drove 800ks towing a trailer 400 of those had a series 3, 6 cyl ute on the trailer and the td5 never missed a beat. The ambiant temp was at 38 deg, the car temp rose to 95 at one stage but mostly sat about 88. Very happy with the out come.

I would like to thank every one who had some imput through the head gasket job. Its greatly appreciated.

Cheers Jim.

[justinc]

Just a quick op date. Drove 800ks towing a trailer 400 of those had a series 3, 6 cyl ute on the trailer and the td5 never missed a beat. The ambiant temp was at 38 deg, the car temp rose to 95 at one stage but mostly sat about 88. Very happy with the out come.

I would like to thank every one who had some imput through the head gasket job. Its greatly appreciated.

Cheers Jim.

Good outcome Jim, well done:)


JC

[Rosscoe68]

hope mine turns out as well :)

[jimbob]

Thanks JC. Could'nt of gone better.

I know how you feel Rosscoe, so many variables. I know i want sure what to expect. But i guess you give it your best shot and hope for the best out come.

Jim

[Rosscoe68]

yeah, just kinda concerned with the 20 thou coming off the head. oh well
its only money :)

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

yeah, just kinda concerned with the 20 thou coming off the head. oh well
its only money :)

Have you checked the machining limits??? .020 (0.5mm) is a fair bit...
I would give Peter at M&D's a call and get him to look it up in his spec book.
At that depth you will have to do valve seats too.

Andrew




Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[Rosscoe68]

yeah valve seats are going to be redone to allow for piston clearance

[d2dave]

Having just read this thread it reminded me of what a great place this forum is.

Dave.

[jimbob]

Having just read this thread it reminded me of what a great place this forum is.

Dave.

What he said!!!!

[justinc]

Thanks JC. Could'nt of gone better.

I know how you feel Rosscoe, so many variables. I know i want sure what to expect. But i guess you give it your best shot and hope for the best out come.

Jim

These are a good engine, just have this head dowel/ overheating issue, fix with steel dowels and forget:)

Many more miles left in it yet jim!:)

JC

[RecMec]

I'm a relatively new starter to all this myself, can't agree more with Whippy. The camaraderie and nous I find across this entire website
is out of this world ... Ray.

[jimbob]

These are a good engine, just have this head dowel/ overheating issue, fix with steel dowels and forget:)

Many more miles left in it yet jim!:)

JC

Thanks JC. After the trip i just did in her .... The faith has returned.... She is a beautifull girl again.

Jim

[Rosscoe68]

picked up my head today, they only needed to take 9 thou off after all.

will go back together this weekend i hope :)