Puma eating clutches for breakfast

[alittlebitconcerned]

I'm in need of good advice and a stiff drink.

My 2008 puma defender is on its third clutch which was replaced under warranty only a month and a half ago. The clutch before that was only in for maybe three months. The current one has started slipping about a week ago and is getting worse by the day. My car has so far had an easy life (cant get the damn thing out of the wirkshop long enough to go anywhere) and certainly had not been abused. Since the last clutch was put in the driving has been all onroad highway and around town driving.

Why does my puma eat clutches?

[weeds]

driving style.....i'm assuming you would not be doing either of the following

i have seen others do things like ride the clutch when waiting on a slight rise/hill for lights to change or give way to traffic, a friend on mine will not get out of the habit resting her foot on the clutch pedal all the time i.e never takes if off

on a technical side i cannot help out sorry...what had been the condition of the flywheel each time? have they been throwing in a new clutch with the existing flywheel?

[canblogerra]

sounds highly unusual. I don't know the mechanism in the Puma, but could there be something blocking the release of the clutch pedal fully, or are the springs in the pressure plate shot resulting in insufficient pressure on the clutch when released? Or maybe oil leaking through and onto the clutch plate.

In any case, for the clutch to be worn out so quickly I 'd have thought it would stink and smoke when you drove. any evidence like that?

Best of luck ... and remember it is mechanics not magic ... cause and effect ... warantee should reasonably cover this recurrent issue which you raised earlier and appears not to have been resolved.

[PAT303]

Maybe it needs a mechanic,not a dealer monkey to see what the problem is.I would have thought they would have noticed something wasn't right by now. Pat

[TimNZ]

Do you know if they are replacing the whole clutch or just the friction plate? Would be nice to know what the flywheel looks like, it could be glazed???

If you had the cash/inclination I'd agree with Pat and get an independant to have a look. With my experiences with LR the dealers seem to be forced, (by LRA), to just fix the fault, not find the acutal cause, with vehicles under warranty.

Cheers,

[PAT303]

Is there any slack in the peddle?,can you let it out a bit before take up?. Pat

[alittlebitconcerned]

Is there any slack in the peddle?,can you let it out a bit before take up?. Pat
Cheers Pat, There is no slack in the peddle that I can feel, in fact but it grabs much earlier than a couple of other Pumas that I have driven.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Do you know if they are replacing the whole clutch or just the friction plate? Would be nice to know what the flywheel looks like, it could be glazed???

If you had the cash/inclination I'd agree with Pat and get an independant to have a look. With my experiences with LR the dealers seem to be forced, (by LRA), to just fix the fault, not find the acutal cause, with vehicles under warranty.

Cheers,

Hi Tim. The workshop said that they replaced the whole clutch each time. I spoke to a real mechanic today who said the same thing you did about the fly wheel. After three clutches, whether it is the cause or not, he suggested that I push to get it replaced under warranty when they do the clutch.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Maybe it needs a mechanic,not a dealer monkey to see what the problem is.I would have thought they would have noticed something wasn't right by now. Pat

I completely agree. I've booked it in with an independent LR mechanic a week before the dealers get their paws on it again.

[alittlebitconcerned]

sounds highly unusual. I don't know the mechanism in the Puma, but could there be something blocking the release of the clutch pedal fully, or are the springs in the pressure plate shot resulting in insufficient pressure on the clutch when released? Or maybe oil leaking through and onto the clutch plate.

In any case, for the clutch to be worn out so quickly I 'd have thought it would stink and smoke when you drove. any evidence like that?

Best of luck ... and remember it is mechanics not magic ... cause and effect ... warantee should reasonably cover this recurrent issue which you raised earlier and appears not to have been resolved.

If it's possible to tell through the feel of the peddle when I drive whether its being blocked or not, I would have to say no, it feels normal; but can't really say. Also, There's no evidence of smoke that I've seen. Thanks canblogerra.

[Blknight.aus]

flywheel alignment may be out.

a bit of locktite or swarf between the flywheel and the flywheel boss will cause this. as will badly tightened flywheel boss bolts or pressure plate bolts (but the wear starts on the other side of the friction plate)

something out of alignment between the crank and the gearbox input. Make very very very sure that this is not the case as it will also take out the gearbox with premature wear to the support bearings of the input shaft and the mesh pattern of the input/layshaft gears it may also take out the syncro for (and I need to recheck the gear locations for this) 3/4

I cant remember off the top if the puma has the dual mass but a failure of the dual mass flywheel can allow the center to which the clutch mounts up to "float" which is also a quick death to the clutch.

the input shaft on the gearbox may have been machined out of round and you could also have the spigot bearing damaged thats causing the friction plate to "walk" when the clutch is used.

[alittlebitconcerned]

driving style.....i'm assuming you would not be doing either of the following

i have seen others do things like ride the clutch when waiting on a slight rise/hill for lights to change or give way to traffic, a friend on mine will not get out of the habit resting her foot on the clutch pedal all the time i.e never takes if off

on a technical side i cannot help out sorry...what had been the condition of the flywheel each time? have they been throwing in a new clutch with the existing flywheel?

Hi weeds. Just like everyone else, I know i'm an excellent driver ;):D so I can pretty much rule out driving style. I don't ride the clutch unless I have to and if I'm on a hill in crawling peakhour traffic, I'll stop and let a fair distance open in front of me before continuing so I don't have to ride the clutch all the way up the hill. Can't say the sydney traffic around shares my enthusiasm for me trying to save my clutch.
As far as I know they haven't been replacing the flywheel with each clutch so I'll definitely be getting them to have a look at that.

[PAT303]

If there's no slack in the peddle and it takes up earlier than other puma's thats the problem.The clutch mechanism might be stopping the clutch from clamping up and then as it wears a bit it slips,that would be warping the flywheel too. Pat

[alittlebitconcerned]

flywheel alignment may be out.

a bit of locktite or swarf between the flywheel and the flywheel boss will cause this. as will badly tightened flywheel boss bolts or pressure plate bolts (but the wear starts on the other side of the friction plate)

something out of alignment between the crank and the gearbox input. Make very very very sure that this is not the case as it will also take out the gearbox with premature wear to the support bearings of the input shaft and the mesh pattern of the input/layshaft gears it may also take out the syncro for (and I need to recheck the gear locations for this) 3/4

I cant remember off the top if the puma has the dual mass but a failure of the dual mass flywheel can allow the center to which the clutch mounts up to "float" which is also a quick death to the clutch.

the input shaft on the gearbox may have been machined out of round and you could also have the spigot bearing damaged thats causing the friction plate to "walk" when the clutch is used.

Nice work Blknight.
When you say "something out of alignment between the crank and the gearbox" is there something to look for or will it be obvious to a trained eye?
Great tips, I'll mention all this to my mechanic who's having a good look at it before the dealer gets it back. Cheers

[dullbird]

I can verify that my bite point is higher than Matts and I can also verify that my clutch also feels a lot heavier then Matts clutch.

I thought matts clutch felt like a car clutch were as mine feels like a tractor..hahahahahahah but it a better way!!! mine feels like it would take a hammering where as his feels poncy..:p

[alittlebitconcerned]

If there's no slack in the peddle and it takes up earlier than other puma's thats the problem.The clutch mechanism might be stopping the clutch from clamping up and then as it wears a bit it slips,that would be warping the flywheel too. Pat

That makes sense to me. It certainly is the shortest clutch I've come across. I'll let my mechanic know. Cheers.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I'm always impressed with the wealth of knowledge on this forum and how helpful the AULRO community are. Thanks everyone, much appreciated ::D

[Blknight.aus]

Nice work Blknight.
When you say "something out of alignment between the crank and the gearbox" is there something to look for or will it be obvious to a trained eye?
Great tips, I'll mention all this to my mechanic who's having a good look at it before the dealer gets it back. Cheers

if you're lucky yes it will even be obvious to someone who is just having a damn good look

a small item stuck between the bell housing and the flywheel housing/adapter plate will do it as will something stuck between the flywheel housing /adapter plate. A miss alignment at these places will show up as a non symmetrical gap between the 2 parts.

to simply demonstrate the principle at work here get one of those bendy straws hold the ends out of parallel and turn the straw and you'll see the "concertinas" working like a universal joint, the clutch plate is not designed to deal with this and will be quickly worn/cracked if thats whats happening.

if its misaligned by being off center it will pull the center out of whack, to demonstrate this take the bendy straw hold the ends parallel to each other but out of plane (so the bendy bit makes an S bend) and turn it again. this will show up as fretting on the input splines and the clutch plate center.

with a failure rate as high as your having on clutches there HAS to be something that a good mechanic who wants to find and fix the problem properly rather than just get it out the door in operable condition will find.

[alittlebitconcerned]

As mentioned at the beginning of the thread I've been living with a progressively worsening clutch (re slipping) for about a week now.

Yesterday, the worse day yet, it was slipping so much I had to go easy on the throttle just so the slipping clutch could keep up with the revs. Today the clutch decides it will bite and the car drives fine… kind of. I do notice the first bite of the clutch seems a bit iffy but then it is under way and seems pretty good with only very minor slipping through the rev range.

Any ideas? Would the way it behaved today lend weight to any of the possible causes suggested to me so far?

[PAT303]

Yes it would,get a competent mechanic to look at it. Pat

[TimNZ]

Has the dealer, (or anyone) checked the hyd line between the master and slave cylinders to see if it's been crushed/crimped/squashed?? Sounds like fluid may not be returning from the slave cylinder?

Cheers,

Tim

[Blknight.aus]

with the new information on hand I'd back a sticky return cylinder or internally collapsed flex line as the first thing that should be checked out.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Noted! Thanks again Blknight, invaluable info.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Has the dealer, (or anyone) checked the hyd line between the master and slave cylinders to see if it's been crushed/crimped/squashed?? Sounds like fluid may not be returning from the slave cylinder?

Cheers,

Tim

Cheers Tim. I'll mention it to my real mechanic.