Diesel in a 101

[101RRS]

Like many 101 owners I have thought off and on about converting my 101 to a diesel.

The 3.5 petrol is not exactly a powerhouse and motoring in a 101 is a leisurely affair at 90 kph with fuel consumption between 10 and 14 mpg. It also runs well on LPG when further than a few 100km from major cities is not obtainable so ULP gets a bit expensive - where gas is available in remote locations it is often as expensive as ULP.

So what diesels would you consider putting into a 101. Noting that the front suspension is sensitive to weight increases over the front axle and that without extensive modification to the radiator mountings the engine would have to be a max of about 4 cylinders long - straight 6 cylinder diesels would most likely be too long.

Given the costs of conversion there would need to be an improvement in onroad performance so that easy cruising at 110kph would be possible. The LT95 transfer case would have to stay (to operate the winch) but it would be possible to graft another gearbox (short one) to the cut off LT95 transfer case.

The obvious conversions are a 200tdi or 300tdi but from what I gather performance is even more leisurely than the petrol but fuel consumption is good.

A TD5 with a chip would provide the required oomph but might be a bit squeesy length wise. I assume that the electronics could be modified with a bit of patience.

The Izusu 3.9 is old school and a bit low on power and revs but does have good torque - however it is really too heavy for the front end.

Chev 6.2/.5 V8 diesels do not have a good reliability reputation and again for the hassle of doing the mods the engines are old school and down on power but have good torque.

The Mazda 3500 has been fitted and runs OK just a little down on power.

What about the modern jap diesels like the Triton 3.2 DID - nice power and fuel consumption.

You can get D3/RRS 2.7 TDV6 diesels in the UK for about $5000 and even TDV8s (exchange :mad:) for about $7000.

For me the TDV6 diesel would be ideal if the electronics could be sorted.

So, 101 owners, you know your vehicles - if you were to change to a diesel what engine would you go for and why??

Thanks

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Gary

One of your problems will be that the 101 has a very short bellhousing when compared to the V8 in other models and the other Land Rover diesels are designed around having a similar length to the V8 variant in the bonnetted Land Rovers therefore using the same engine mounts. Td5 is designed for an R380 box.

Which ever option you take you are likely to have to adapt the 101 bellhousing to it.

Secondly diesels like the Isuzu have lower power bands, so you are going to have to up your ratios somewhere.

If not the 4BD1 what about one of the later spec Isuzu turbo diesels, from the NPR range?

BTW: aren't the TDV8 a joint venture with Pugeot? The electrics would have to be 12V and you'd solve the issues by using the same ECU and fitting all the original sensors where possible.

If it were my choice, with a non-electronic vehicle like your 101, I'd still be looking for an old school turbo diesel and my choice would still be a 4BD1-T or 4BD2-T (although you could go for the 6DE1 - a 125Kw 24valve V6Td found in the Saab 9.5)

Diana

[bee utey]

I still think you are better off with a high comp 3.5 V8. The 3500S engine runs rings around the low comp truck motor, both in power and economy. 187 BHP I believe in stock trim. They rev beautifully and everything is a drop-in fit. Just the other day someone asked me to remove a dismantled 3500S engine from their shed. It appears to have a complete set of 10.5:1CR pistons with it. Put them in with a cam and a set of EFI heads and you wouldn't know your truck.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I still think you are better off with a high comp 3.5 V8. The 3500S engine runs rings around the low comp truck motor, both in power and economy. 187 BHP I believe in stock trim. They rev beautifully and everything is a drop-in fit. Just the other day someone asked me to remove a dismantled 3500S engine from their shed. It appears to have a complete set of 10.5:1CR pistons with it. Put them in with a cam and a set of EFI heads and you wouldn't know your truck.Still doesn't solve the problem of the cost of ULP and lack of LPG in remote areas.

Although that said when I'm going away from LPG areas, I run on city price ULP after the last LPG fill station and use the full LPG tank to extend the range in remote places. Hopefully with 125lt ULP + gerry cans and 60lt LPG I don't have to buy a lot of real expensive ULP.

[bee utey]

Still doesn't solve the problem of the cost of ULP and lack of LPG in remote areas.


True, but a 10 to 20% increase in efficiency is not to be sneezed at. And not doing a diesel conversion buys a LOT of litres for a vehicle that isn't used daily. I assume that's why Garry bought the RRS.:)

[Mick_Marsh]

Why don't you buy Mr Benson's diesel 101?
No use re-inventing the wheel.

Replacing yours? I'll give you a fairly low price.

[101RRS]

Why don't you buy Mr Benson's diesel 101?
No use re-inventing the wheel.

Replacing yours? I'll give you a fairly low price.

Who is Mr Benson?

Bee Utey/Diana - haven't said I was changing the donk - just looking at options for remote travel. If I went to the cost of changing engines I would want a performance improvement - not just better fuel consumption and fuel availability. Modern higher revving diesels best match the rev/torque requirements of the 101 over older types.

Staying with petrol is still an option as I could turn the back into a fuel tanker - with the ability to carry about 6 44gal drums plus but it would be just easier if it were diesel.

Certainly with any engine modifications it will be necessary to look at other things like the space between radiator and transfer case.

I think the ideal engine if cost was no object would be a TDV8 but then issues would be what gearbox and making the electronics work.

Cheers

Garry

PS - I could always do what a previous owner did when my 101 was travelling the vast north was rig up a few large domestic household gas tanks to the LPG system and run an them.

[101 Ron]

I just wouldnt do the diesel thing.
You will never never get the cost back after conversion unless the thing is a daily driver and who wants to drive a 101 every day when there is a range rover in the drive way.
4.7 diffs would have to be part of the conversion...more cost and time.
To me personally the 3.5 makes the vehicle as the old rover 8 is reliable and has a good spread of power though the rev range.
If you up the power, the rest of the vehicle will look worse because brakes, steering and suspension will not be in the same class as the rest of the vehicle.
the 3.5 donk is a good one and in fact a lot more reliable than the later bigger rover V8s.
the 3.5 is cheap for parts and as pointed in a earier post it can take a bit of tune from standard for the better.
TDI motors will fit and only just and the vehicle performs no better, but the TDI rover motors have torque on paper, but in the real world make you do alot more gear changes to keep things moving along.
The 101 is about the only landrover that was really tough in all areas from the factory with all the bits working well together as stock.
You sit only a few inches away from the motor....the purr of a 8 or the rattle of the diesel
Get the tune sorted on the standard motor and go looking for a better gas tank.
Take note on the pommie 101 web site , even with the cost of fuel in the UK alot of 101s get converted back from diesel to petrol....why.
Want a good forward control 4x4 diesel go buy a Mitsubishi canter 4x4 with disc brakes and air con with no rego problems and engineers certs for engine conversions.
Sorry I know its not what you want to hear but I hope it helps.
101 buddy
Ron
Ps i love the pommie 8s exhaust note.....it is so cool .
P3090013.mp4 video by 101Ron - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid131.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/P3090013.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid131@@AMEPARAM@@131@@AME PARAM@@p299/101Ron/P3090013@@AMEPARAM@@mp4

[Blknight.aus]

4bd1-t with uprated front springs.

[justinc]

Gearing, gearing , gearing. IMHO the only cheap alternative is the originally designed for petrol V8, and suck up the $$$:( I agree the 3.5 high comp engines are way more efficient than the low comp ones, and beautifully simple in carby form.

IF you wanted to diesel it, I would pick a 4BD1t and change final drive gearing, 3.54 I guess would be a start, IIRC the LT95 high range in these is 1.4:1?

Anyway, with the gearing carefully chosen, the Isuzu would eat any V8 on hills:twisted:.

The 4H series later Isuzu engines are very wide, may not fit in engine compartment???

JC

[101 Ron]

A vee type diesel motor will most likey not fit as the LHS shock mount will get in the way.
You would need to look for a inline diesel motor.

[101RRS]

To me personally the 3.5 makes the vehicle as the old rover 8 is reliable and has a good spread of power though the rev range.


Says he who has a 4.6 just waiting to go into his 101 :).

Dave - while the Isuzu has great torque, I believe it does have a narrow rev band and would soon run out of gears - likewise it has very low power and is unlikely to be able to push the brick through the air any better than the petrol engine. The weight would require changes to the front springs but also the weight bias towards the front would be too great and dangerous when unloaded.

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

you get me a 4bd1t in reasonable order and about $1k to invest in parts and I reckon I can get you 200+hp at the fly.

[Mick_Marsh]

As one considering buying a Td5 (in a 130 not for the 101), why wouldn't you consider puting one in a 101?
Wish I'd saved a photo of Mr Benson's deisel now. In order to fit the motor in the radiator was mounted on the front and a cowl built around it.
Just a thought, if you're converting, Why not change the gearbox, mount it a little further back, changing the lengths and angles of the driveshafts and hopefully fixing the front driveshaft vibration problem?

[101 Ron]

As one considering buying a Td5 (in a 130 not for the 101), why wouldn't you consider puting one in a 101?
Wish I'd saved a photo of Mr Benson's deisel now. In order to fit the motor in the radiator was mounted on the front and a cowl built around it.
Just a thought, if you're converting, Why not change the gearbox, mount it a little further back, changing the lengths and angles of the driveshafts and hopefully fixing the front driveshaft vibration problem?

The 101 was built with a special short bell housing so the transfercase could be moved forward to stop the rear tailshaft from buzzing.
The rear tailshaft is on its limits too.
The 101 which had been stretched to 130 inches fitted with a 3.9 motor and R380 gearbox I have driven showed the fact the front tailshaft will still buzz even with the extra compression on the springs due to weight and the motor transmission moved the the rear to take advantage of the extra lenght, but nowhere near as bad as a standard 101.
This vehicle also showed the greatly increase in torque the bigger rover V8s have over the standard 3.5.
A 20 percent increase in torque over what you already have is simply brilliant as it is excess to what you are normally use to in the vehicle.
I may add my 3.5 motor is not coming out of the 101 until it wears out for a couple of good reasons.
1/ the motor is in good nick and can still keep me in front of garrys 101 if required.
2/ It is a lot of work to change the motor on a 101.
3/ It will cost 3k to remachine and top hat a 4.6 and although that motor may go harder it still is not as reliable as a 3.5 and will not spin as freely as the 3.5 unless some head work is done especially if you are going to use the 101 carbys and you must use the restrictive 101 exhaust manifold.
4/ now being a stolly owner any mechanical problems or running cost problems i may have had with the 101 are insignificant compared to the stolly:(:(:(:angel::angel:

[101RRS]

2.7 TDV6 Less than $3200 +delivery+GST
Range rover sport 2.7 tdv6 engine complete on eBay (end time 05-Feb-11 02:38:31 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Range-rover-sport-2-7-tdv6-engine-complete-/160538791978?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2560db902a)


TDV8 $4400 +
RANGE ROVER L322 3.6 TDV8 ENGINE 2007 TO 2010 on eBay (end time 02-Feb-11 15:03:05 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RANGE-ROVER-L322-3-6-TDV8-ENGINE-2007-2010-/390268944728?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5addd78158)

Almost viable at these prices.

Mick was the Benson 101 that ugly one that was on ebay a while back?

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick was the Benson 101 that ugly one that was on ebay a while back?
Yes

[101 Ron]

I will note a good mate of mine has a stage 1 series three with a Isuzu with the LT90 running gear.
me in the 101 and he in the Isuzu both pulling trailers , him with a haflinger and me with WLA harley and a BSA on a heavier built trailer,,ie we both were pulling the same weight.
My 101 running the over drive and LPG there was nothing in between the two vehicles performance wise up hill and on the flat.
As far as i am concerned performance between the 3.5(low compression) and the Isuzu (non turbo ) are the same in the real world on the same transmissions and the running cost diesel verses LPG is similar.
The diesel will last longer and have longer legs.( that if it doesnt screw the transmission first)

[stuee]

What does converting to diesel do to the 2nd hand value of the vehicle? I doubt you'd ever be any better off financially which makes the cost of petrol a bit of a moot point. Has anyone developed workarounds to install the modern diesels (2.7v6td or tdv8) as standalone without all the various other bcm's and assorted computers? That and if one of the reasons for converting is better touring range who will be able to fix a heavily customized modern diesel powered 101 if things don't go as planned when your out in the bush?

As has been suggested I think a jap fc would be the better bet and your not killing a classic but at the end of the day it's your car to do with what you like.

[stuee]

*Double post

[Mick_Marsh]

In my experience, original, un-modified vehicles get better prices.
Has anyone commented on putting in a Td5 yet?

[UncleHo]

Why not go to a 3.5 injected from about 86/7 Range Rover, BHP went from 125 @ 4000rpm in HC carby form to 165 BHP @ 4000 rpm in injected form and torque went from 185 @ 2500 Carby to 206 @ 3200 Injected,still fairly simple without to much electronics and not a lot of gas conv work to to it, it would probably only need heads and cam to achieve the results,or a good S/hand motor.

[101RRS]

Thanks Uncle Ho - the issue relates to fuel consumption and range in remote locations. I am happy with the 3.5 as it is for non remote areas. However if I was to go to all the expense of changing an engine - doesn't matter whether petrol or diesel I would expect an improvement in performance or otherwise there is little point. As I indicated I am just after peoples thought on suitable diesels. There are lots of cheap non rover options for petrol engines but I would still need to load up with a heap of 44s to get the range needed in remote areas.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'm wondering about the gear stick replicator mechanism and whether it would foul on the EFI plenum?

What about using a complete 3.9 EFI V8 from a Range Rover or Disco? The serpentine belt may even make a few things easier, if they clear the front diff etc.

In relation to range, I thought the EFI engines were a little more economical than the carby engines, even with the increased performance

[isuzurover]

It would be hard to go past a 4BD1T. As JC mentioned, it would eat ANY rover V8 you care to put in if tuned and geared correctly.

To sort the gearing, you can buy any retio from 7.17:1 to 3.54:1 for the diffs from the US quite cheaply (Dana 60). 4.3:1 would probably be a good option...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It would be hard to go past a 4BD1T. As JC mentioned, it would eat ANY rover V8 you care to put in if tuned and geared correctly.

To sort the gearing, you can buy any retio from 7.17:1 to 3.54:1 for the diffs from the US quite cheaply (Dana 60). 4.3:1 would probably be a good option...Ben

The issue of diesel Vs rover V8 (and I acknowledge Garry's question only relates to the former) is that a Rover V8 will not require, any modification to the engine mounts, no modification to the exhaust or any alternative bellhousing and will essentially be the same weight. Four things that the 4BD1/4BD1-T or 4BD2-T will require.

Also if you up the ratio on the diffs, will the diff centres remain the same? As we know the 101 has larger diameter halfshafts.

And

When you up the diff ratio you also up the low ratio reducing the crawler capability, something that swapping the LT95 ratios doesn't do.

But as I have said earlier in the thread, for a choice of diesel - I would go 4BD1-T too!
Diana

[85 county]

Personally I think you maybe trying to crack a to hard a nut.

The modern diesels are great, very good power but at a cost.

you will always burn more fuel to get more HP, Although the new jap diesels punt along very well they are not having to actually move much.

I would sagest that the potential fuel economy would fly out the window.
I had a ford ranger ute for a bit, 12ltrs per 100 empty to port Lincoln, 19 ltrs per hundred coming back with only 800kg on the back. But sheeesh it could fly.
And then with any diesel, at best you will be giving away 25% of your rev range and that’s a big deal when coming to sand etc.

The economy you quoted i think would only improve a bit with a high comp rover

[101RRS]

you will always burn more fuel to get more HP, Although the new jap diesels punt along very well they are not having to actually move much.



Not true - modern diesels burn the fuel more efficiently than the old ones so in some aspects you can have your cake and eat it too. Overall my RRS TDV6 2.7 is averaging 8.6 l/100km pulling its 2.6tonnes (with me in it - was on a weigh bridge the other day) around - producing 140kw etc. Overall this is better than my 1.8 tonne 2 litre Freelander in similar conditions.

If you are more efficient, you do not have to burn more fuel to get the same power.

Garry

[isuzurover]

Also if you up the ratio on the diffs, will the diff centres remain the same? As we know the 101 has larger diameter halfshafts.



There are only 2 different carrier types - 4.56:1 and numerically lower and 4.1 and numerically higher.

So you can change ratios between 7.17:1 and 4.56:1 without changing the centre. If you want to go 4.1 or higher you would need to swap your 21-spline 101 side gears (OEM or ARB/JM) into a different centre (either a 3.54 rover centre or ARB/JM...).

It goes without saying that ANY engine swap to anything other than a rover V8 will not be bolt in. IME the 101 springs are fairly stiff, so may not be much of an issue - a reset will probably be sufficient.

The 4BD1/T has the best brake specific fuel consumption of any diesel available at the time, however I am not sure how it compares to modern diesels. I doubt it would be far off.

Another option would probably be a 4JB1T or 4JG2T (Rodeo/jackaroo 2.8 or 3.1 diesel). There should be bellhousing adaptor kits available from the UK. These have a higher rev range than the 4BD1, and can be tweaked to the same level of performance as a tweaked TD5.

[tas101fc]

garry theirs a reason why i have a 4bd1t in the shed mate:)

ring me for a chat mate:o

[101 Ron]

Garry
I think a pommie fellow 101 owner has the perfect answer to your problem.
As you would know there is a 101 running around the UK using the original motor, and costs extremely little to run........almost nothing in fact and the fuel is tax free.
The conversion to the motor is cheap and done made from scraps.
The fuel is advailable in most parts of aust, including the out back.
Wood gas ! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1013.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1014.jpg
He is just getting to do the finishing touches , like fixing the filter so the motor doesnt suck in the straw and the sorting out the hard starting.
The more I think about it the better it is.
Use a bigger rover motor than standard to make up for any power loss and then let the fuel componies, OPEC and the Govt taxes kiss my A##
Now how did he do it ?:angel::angel::angel::angel:

[iain reed]

nice one ron :):):):):)