How's your skill in herpetology?

[LWB123]

Hello from Brisbane.

I recently noticed a bit of fresh scat on my workshop floor - smelt reasonably strongly when I pushed it with my boot and it seemed to be sitting in a small pool of clear oily matter about the size of a 50 cent piece.

I noticed a couple more of these single nuggets in and about the same place over the next few days - in each case just a single pellet a bit like a small piece of cat or fox ****e. Now I don't believe it is either species, but thought it might be from a toad or possibly a carpet snake (there is a fairly big fellow that shifts around the local block a bit). The workshop is enclosed by battens that would keep most possums, cats, etc out - and I doubt that it belongs to possums, bandicoots etc. There are plenty of toads about the yard, but to date they have been content to shift their business elsewhere.

Anyway, I haven't got a clue what it is and wondered if anyone else might hazard a guess - photos below. Failing that I can hand a sample over to the museum for their thoughts.

The last sample was near my beer fridge and I would hate to drop a valuable stubby groping about in the dark ..............

Cheers,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1020.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1021.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1022.jpg

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

herpetology? for a moment I thought you were asking for specialitists in the study of Herpes:D

[pfillery]

IMHO, I'm no expert, but that is definitely a turd.

From an animal no less.:)

[Sully]

Rats mate.

[clubagreenie]

I initially thought you were talking about Hepatology and thought here we go again, another one of us sick.

What sort of length? The taper speaks volumes about reducing your options of what it comes from as well as the contents. Start collecting and soak a few in some water to break up gently and see if it plant, seed or other materials. That'll not only narrow you possible vermin range but impress the museum that you know something of it.

[tony66_au]

I can see this thread going very very wrong....................

For what its worth though most snake poo ive seen looks like a slightly oversized jelly bean.

id pop some rat bait blocks out, if the poo colour changes to match the bait then its a rodent.

Tony

[KarlB]

Few questions:

1. Is there any white chalky like material in the scats?
2. Is the texture fine and consistent?
3. Is there any smell, and if so of what (eg grassy smell or foul smell)?
4. Are the scats wet or dry (when fresh)?
5. Is there any smell associated with the "clear oily matter"?
6. Any small bone fragments or hair?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[big guy]

Only problem I see wrong with that is the Volvo key ring.:wasntme:

I had a fella that worked at the Zoo for a long time in the office just than, he had no idea, the pics did not show enough detail but a trip to a Zoo for examining may be worth it.

[VladTepes]

I was gonna say the thing on the LHS of the pictue is indicative of poo !

[tony66_au]

Im still waiting for the next turd ID pic to pop up lol.

Ive just come back from the barn and the grain storage area and the pics above look very much like large rat poo with some of the scat I saw there being nearly an inch long and tapered both ends.

Must be time to restock the bait stations.

Tony

[LWB123]

Few questions:

1. Is there any white chalky like material in the scats?
2. Is the texture fine and consistent?
3. Is there any smell, and if so of what (eg grassy smell or foul smell)?
4. Are the scats wet or dry (when fresh)?
5. Is there any smell associated with the "clear oily matter"?
6. Any small bone fragments or hair?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

Well, this is a new area of acquiring expertise for me I must admit.

In reply to an earlier suggestion, I am pretty sure that it isn't a rat - although it would have a definite problem if it was, judging by the size..... The parcel is not bean-shaped either as raised in another query. Also, it was always just a single nugget rather than scattering of pellets. I say 'was' because the beastie seems to have moved on for now. All up, I suppose the floor was bombed 3-4 times in varying places in the open floor and under the work bench - and I guess this might have been over a period of a week when the floods were on.

Over the years I have seen elephant, rhino, giraffe, hippo, camel, buffalo, echidna, roo, wallaby, koala dung etc and can pretty much rule them out too on obvious grounds of size and local scarcity.

But, I am keen to find out where this lot came from, so in response to the 6 specific questions above:

1. I can't see any white chalky marks - with normal glasses anyway.

2. As far as texture goes - it seems to be fine and consistent, although not put strictly to a taste test.

3. There definitely is a strong smell and not really grassy - I actually smelled it before I saw it.

4. The scats are apparently laid wet - the first one that I found definitely was, as it smeared when I pushed it with my boot, and the oily matter looked a bit like olive oil albeit clearer. I think it was pretty fresh and the ones that I found later, including those in the photos, had dried out. However, these would have been older because they were in under the workbench where I didn't previously see them.

5. The 'clear oily matter' did seem to have an odour, but it had been smeared with the main nugget when I touched it with my boot.

6. There doesn't seem to be any bone or hair in the sample that I photographed - not with normal glasses anyway.

There was a big old carpet snake of several metres living over the road for years and no-one had seen him/her for a while - thought it or one of the relations might be a culprit. The resident toad population is erupting again and that was also a thought, but they have been around here for years, including in the workshop, and not been making much of a presence.

Cheers,

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Only problem I see wrong with that is the Volvo key ring.:wasntme:


I'd hang the turd off the key ring and scribe Volvo into it. Like the old saying "you can polish a turd but it's still a turd" !!!

Mate of mine keeps snakes. Will send him a pic and see if he can identify it as snakepoo.
Snakepoo in my experience is usually long, skinny and coils up in te bowl.... But that's just my experience!! :p

Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[tony66_au]

I did a quick search on "rat droppings" on google images and got these.

[LWB123]

Im still waiting for the next turd ID pic to pop up lol.

Ive just come back from the barn and the grain storage area and the pics above look very much like large rat poo with some of the scat I saw there being nearly an inch long and tapered both ends.

Must be time to restock the bait stations.

Tony

Rats would be an obvious thought for sure, but to be honest we don't generally get them here - workshop is under the house with a 2 pak painted concrete floor and the cats and dogs don't exactly throw out the welcome mat. Apart from the beer in the fridge in the workshop, there is little else on offer by way of food or comfort.

All the rain with the recent flooding might have shifted the neighbourhood rodentia about a bit, but I'm not entirely convinced that it was a rat.

Cheers,

[tony66_au]

Fair enough but its worth bearing in mind that rodents are opportunists and will go where the food is.

Flooding or heavy rain will flush them out, fruit blown off trees, bird feeders or even left over pet food will bring them near and they will vanish as quickly as they appeared.

Even softwood sawdust or newspapers will bring them in if they are searching for nesting items.

I think a bit of time on google images will help you in your quest.

Google (http://www.google.com.au) and click on the images link top left

[scanfor]

I reckon it's reptilian.
Green Tree Frog maybe?

[zulu Delta 534]

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a blue tongue lizard, although the shape looks possibly more like a Rattus rattus. (Black rat usually found in well watered areas close to human habitation).
When we had coaches a black rat used to visit each night via the UHF antenna sitting atop the shed, squeezed through a small aperture under the eaves cut simply for the antenna cable, follow the cable down into the office, knock off the green plastic lids (not necessarily the contents - just the green plastic) then back up the antenna wire. Our resident cat got him after about a week.
Regards
Glen

[Bearman]

I reckon it's a TT (toad turd):D

[KarlB]

The two scats look very different. The bottom one certainly looks 'possum' like. It is smooth on the outside and very uniform in texture. If it wasn't found where it was I would have suggested a Koala. The top one could well be a Blue Tongue. However reptile scats, like those of birds, are usually predominantly white or cream coloured because of the uric acid content. Birds and reptiles don't pee like mammals. They excrete their waste nitrogen products by converting them to insoluble uric acid and pass it with their faeces.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Hymie]

Don't ask me, according to my Boss I don't know S***.....

[slug_burner]

The two scats look very different. The bottom one certainly looks 'possum' like. It is smooth on the outside and very uniform in texture. If it wasn't found where it was I would have suggested a Koala. The top one could well be a Blue Tongue. However reptile scats, like those of birds, are usually predominantly white or cream coloured because of the uric acid content. Birds and reptiles don't pee like mammals. They excrete their waste nitrogen products by converting them to insoluble uric acid and pass it with their faeces.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

and they do it through the cloaca

[KarlB]

and they do it through the cloaca
... which is Latin for sewer!

[ramblingboy42]

and they do it through the cloaca

yeah I've heard of the clakka valve........

[LWB123]

Only problem I see wrong with that is the Volvo key ring.:wasntme:



Ach men!

A couple of you have indeed twigged to a piece of family scandal - I admit it, my regular drive is, in fact, an XC70............. out of the closet at last.

For sure, when Erik, Bjorg, Lars, Sven, Knut, Olaf, Hjort, Benji, me and our Labs are sitting around in our silly horny hats listening to Dancing Queen and tanked on the old Tuborg we occasionally let our fantasies get away on us.

To own a real four wheel drive - like something that leaks oil, breaks down regularly, requires buckets of maintenance, leans to the right, steers to the left, rough as guts to ride in and rusts through the bulkhead.

Trouble is these rotten V-cars of ours seem to run for half a million clicks with limited intervention, ride too comfortably and damn it all won't rust for trying.

Of course, the other fantasy is to travel to India to meet the new owners...........

Oh well, back to the scats.

Cheers,

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Ach men!

A couple of you have indeed twigged to a piece of family scandal - I admit it, my regular drive is, in fact, an XC70............. out of the closet at last.

For sure, when Erik, Bjorg, Lars, Sven, Knut, Olaf, Hjort, Benji, me and our Labs are sitting around in our silly horny hats listening to Dancing Queen and tanked on the old Tuborg we occasionally let our fantasies get away on us.

To own a real four wheel drive - like something that leaks oil, breaks down regularly, requires buckets of maintenance, leans to the right, steers to the left, rough as guts to ride in and rusts through the bulkhead.

Trouble is these rotten V-cars of ours seem to run for half a million clicks with limited intervention, ride too comfortably and damn it all won't rust for trying.

Of course, the other fantasy is to travel to India to meet the new owners...........

Oh well, back to the scats.

Cheers,

Now your really talking ****!!! Lol


Sent from my backyard TeePee using smoke signals.

[KarlB]

... yes, and back to the scats. I sent the pictures and answers to questions off to an old mate who has done lots of wildlife survey stuff. His reply is as follows:

Its not rat.

The strong smell is associated with possum crap. Can be anything from grassy through eucalyptus to quite unpleasant. Particularly if brushtail it depends on diet.

Well, a regurgitated pellet came to mind for the top one - snake or owl - but could equally be a highly desiccated possum scat, but without having it in front of me I can't say (hence why I said not prepared to guess). The bottom one is possum - 99% certain. How they came to be in context with one another, I can't explain. The oily substance - well, a couple of times I have inadvertently trapped large mammals (once a water rat and once a possum) in elliots. On both occasions, there was a dark clear, oily to gelatinous substance associated with it and scats. Not sure what it was but it stank and I don't ever want to come across it again!

The problem with snake is they don’t crap in pellets that I have ever seen. You tend to get messy diarrhoea or pellets of skeletal material/hide etc - but you probably know more about that than me.

I agree that the bottom scat is almost certainly a possum, most likely a Brushtail, but I would not discount a Ringtail. Have you seen any Ringtails around? Their smaller size might account for their ability to get into you workshop. .

Thinking about why they have started to appear now, raises an obvious but un-asked question. Are you any where near an area of flooding and if so did the scats start to appear after that?

If you have any old cupboards or the like in the workshop, it may be worth having a very good look into them to see if you have a fury bundle snoozing in a warm corner.


Cheers
KarlB
:)

[LWB123]

... yes, and back to the scats. I sent the pictures and answers to questions off to an old mate who has done lots of wildlife survey stuff. His reply is as follows:

Its not rat.

The strong smell is associated with possum crap. Can be anything from grassy through eucalyptus to quite unpleasant. Particularly if brushtail it depends on diet.

Well, a regurgitated pellet came to mind for the top one - snake or owl - but could equally be a highly desiccated possum scat, but without having it in front of me I can't say (hence why I said not prepared to guess). The bottom one is possum - 99% certain. How they came to be in context with one another, I can't explain. The oily substance - well, a couple of times I have inadvertently trapped large mammals (once a water rat and once a possum) in elliots. On both occasions, there was a dark clear, oily to gelatinous substance associated with it and scats. Not sure what it was but it stank and I don't ever want to come across it again!

The problem with snake is they don’t crap in pellets that I have ever seen. You tend to get messy diarrhoea or pellets of skeletal material/hide etc - but you probably know more about that than me.

I agree that the bottom scat is almost certainly a possum, most likely a Brushtail, but I would not discount a Ringtail. Have you seen any Ringtails around? Their smaller size might account for their ability to get into you workshop. .

Thinking about why they have started to appear now, raises an obvious but un-asked question. Are you any where near an area of flooding and if so did the scats start to appear after that?

If you have any old cupboards or the like in the workshop, it may be worth having a very good look into them to see if you have a fury bundle snoozing in a warm corner.


Cheers
KarlB
:)

Many thanks - could well be possums as your remarks suggest - have heaps of them in the trees around the place (both ringtails and brushtails) and I feed them episodically in a mango tree in the back yard or along the fence.

Again, while it seemed obvious given the large numbers about - they have been about the suburbs for years and never bothered to come into the area under the house. Put that down to the cat and dogs and lack of anything that a possum would want to eat in the place. There is always heaps of possum droppings under the powerlines and nesting areas and I would not have ordinarily associated it with the oily marker that set the original query off. But that is interesting to know. The smell from the normal dropping sites around the yard is quite musky and not really like the smell that was coming from the fresh sample that I found on the floor.

Just about everyone (else) in the neighbourhood here has possums in their sheds, roofs and trees - but pretty much to date I have been free of them in the roof and under the house. There are possum boxes in all the trees here which are certainly occupied, but the workshop area is basically free of junk and there really aren't any niches for them there. I gave it a good top to toe clean out a couple of weeks back and there was nothing there.

If the scat came from a transient ringtail or brushtail - my guess would be that the very heavy rain and subsequent flooding might have displaced a good many from along the river and the flooded yards. Finding our own neighbourhood habitat already saturated, and not exactly welcomed by the pets, might have been forced to beat a retreat. In answer to one of your questions - I came back from Indonesia on the Friday of Brisbane's flood week and noticed the fresh nugget and oily patch that same day - the specimens in the photo came from under the bench and I was assuming that they must have been deposited earlier in the same week - the workshop was built back in 2000 and there never has been any animal droppings other than from barking geckos in that time.

This is where the carpet snake idea came in - the resident used to live off possums and would regularly camp up a neighbour's tree for weeks to digest off a meal. The neighbours hadn't seen it for a good while and I was wondering if he had come back via my place - he/she climbed a macadamia and onto the gutter of the second story a couple of years back presumably following a scent trail across the roof.

Judging from the pellet piles under the powerlines and trees around the place, I had always assumed that possums were leaving their calling cards in multiples like mice and rabbits.

Interesting to get your colleagues' diagnosis. One point from his comments - the first and second samples were similar looking and with the oily pool - the third and fourth samples did not have that pool and looking back at the photos were possibly unalike, suggesting different animals perhaps?

The sample are off to the Queensland Museum anyway and I will let you know their call when I have it.

Cheers,

[LWB123]

... yes, and back to the scats. I sent the pictures and answers to questions off to an old mate who has done lots of wildlife survey stuff. His reply is as follows:

Its not rat.

The strong smell is associated with possum crap. Can be anything from grassy through eucalyptus to quite unpleasant. Particularly if brushtail it depends on diet.

Well, a regurgitated pellet came to mind for the top one - snake or owl - but could equally be a highly desiccated possum scat, but without having it in front of me I can't say (hence why I said not prepared to guess). The bottom one is possum - 99% certain. How they came to be in context with one another, I can't explain. The oily substance - well, a couple of times I have inadvertently trapped large mammals (once a water rat and once a possum) in elliots. On both occasions, there was a dark clear, oily to gelatinous substance associated with it and scats. Not sure what it was but it stank and I don't ever want to come across it again!

The problem with snake is they don’t crap in pellets that I have ever seen. You tend to get messy diarrhoea or pellets of skeletal material/hide etc - but you probably know more about that than me.

I agree that the bottom scat is almost certainly a possum, most likely a Brushtail, but I would not discount a Ringtail. Have you seen any Ringtails around? Their smaller size might account for their ability to get into you workshop. .

Thinking about why they have started to appear now, raises an obvious but un-asked question. Are you any where near an area of flooding and if so did the scats start to appear after that?

If you have any old cupboards or the like in the workshop, it may be worth having a very good look into them to see if you have a fury bundle snoozing in a warm corner.


Cheers
KarlB
:)

OK.

Panel of experts (CSIRO) had a look at the samples over morning tea and finally gave possums the thumbs up - likely a young brushtail looking for shelter. Thinking is that while there are hundreds of the buggers about the place - as readily acknowledged since I feed them occasionally - the floods and preceding deluge has them, and countless other things, displaced and moving about looking for food and shelter. Being away for New Year had the cat and local dogs off the property and an opportunist probably got under the battens for a few days respite. Welcome mat was withdrawn when the folks and domestic animals arrived back home.

So, to continue focusing on scats we can get back to canning people who drive Toyotas.

And Volvos, if you really must................

Cheers,

[JohnF]

came into this thread a bit late, but every Carpet snake poo I have ever seen has been mainly white or cream, and also for some other snakes. Not Rat, possim sounds good to me.

[tony66_au]

Drop bear Poo?

[MickS]

What's it taste like???????? :eek:

[d2dave]

Drop bear Poo?

Could be on to something here, after all it was near the beer fridge.

Dave.

[slug_burner]

What's it taste like???????? :eek:

Will get it sent your way so you can tell us:wasntme:

[MickS]

Will get it sent your way so you can tell us:wasntme:

Lucky you didn't step in it ;)

[one_iota]

:eek:

Nevermind Herpetology....


It had never occurred to me before just how many expert Scatologists there are here....


Shouldn't have been surprised really having read a lot of stuff on this site over the years.:p;)



Scatology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

[crump]

to resurrect(um) a crappy thread:D, sleep easy, it aint snake ****!!

[bob10]

Had a cousin who smelled a bit off, he was a bit of a possum, didn't see a bloke with red hair & big ears, sorta like a love child of Gillard & Abbott, hangin round? :angel:

[malleefowl]

Back to the snaky bit for a while please How many times a year does a Brown snake shed it's skin?Found one near the carport and today did an almighty 5ft leap backwoods when I encountered one in the shed:o

A couple of weeks ago disturbed a 5Ft specimen heading under the house after I had sprayed Roundup on/near it.Boy was it moving! Not seen it since but hope I don't have a family of them around.
Eyes are on swivels at this stage,
Cheers,
mary

[KarlB]

Back to the snaky bit for a while please How many times a year does a Brown snake shed it's skin?Found one near the carport and today did an almighty 5ft leap backwoods when I encountered one in the shed:o

A couple of weeks ago disturbed a 5Ft specimen heading under the house after I had sprayed Roundup on/near it.Boy was it moving! Not seen it since but hope I don't have a family of them around.
Eyes are on swivels at this stage,
Cheers,
mary

Shedding is primarily a function of growth so younger (smaller) snakes shed more often than larger mature ones; and those that are getting lots of food will shed more often than those whose food intake is limited. A large Brown Snake would typically shed its skin once a year. A smaller one in good conditions, two or three times. The skin can be shed as a function of wear and tear as well.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[crump]

Shedding is primarily a function of growth so younger (smaller) snakes shed more often than larger mature ones; and those that are getting lots of food will shed more often than those whose food intake is limited. A large Brown Snake would typically shed its skin once a year. A smaller one in good conditions, two or three times. The skin can be shed as a function of wear and tear as well.

Cheers
KarlB
:)
and females also generally shed prior to egg laying or giving birth, species dependent.

[RobHay]

I am voting for a really humungious gecko......really big one, attack trained :o more than likely.

[bob10]

Do you have mice in your shed? Sure fire attraction for brown snakes.they eat lizards, frogs and small mammals. the juveniles may be strongly banded, the bands usually fading with maturity. they can be extremely aggressive, if provoked, will press home an attack.Not a snake to be spraying with anything. they strike repeatedly, and although the fangs and venom yield are small, the venom is highly neurotoxic and coagulant, with some blood destroying properties it is one of our most dangerous and deadly species. Apart from that you have nothing to worry about, [ used to get heaps in western Qld .when I was a kid] [the first time round.], Seriously, read up on snakebite first aid, have the appropriate first aid kit , educate your family, and DO NOT walk around outside after dark without a very good torch and bloody big stick Bob [I think you could get the mulga, or king brown out your way as well]

[malleefowl]

I am really quite familiar with large brown snakes .We get a lot in this area.I live opposite a 28 acre bush reserve so do get some visitorsIt's just that this is the first time in 19 yrs I have had the problem so close.Mouse numbers are not a problem but perhaps a years rainfall in 24 hrs 2 weeks ago may have flushed some out of usual habitits.Don't mind them usually but not prepared to share shed/house space plus have to think of Rosie my Tenterfield terrier
Used to think nothing of tackling one but the last one I saw could really move wouldn't want to be in it's way
Cheers,
Mary

[crump]

stop worrying, there are millions of venomous snakes living in close proximity to people everywhere in the country, you just dont see them. Statistically whose dying?Your more likely to die from a beesting or a horse,peoples historical phobia of snakes seems to overide the fact that bugger all people die from snakebite in this country even though we have some of the more dangerous species on the planet.Get over it, unless your really unlucky or do something stupid be comfortable in the fact that you are probably more likely to catch toxoplasmosis from your pet cat and subsequently die from that transmission than you are from being bitten by any Australian elapid snake.

[Tombie]

Thanks Crump...
I don't understand peoples phobia either.
Snakes generally want to be left alone.
99% of the time the strike is more a "back the hell off" than an attack.

Just last week I 'escorted' a nice one out of our work area at the mine...
All I did was walk alongside it, guiding it with my gear until it headed off to the tailings dam.

[bob10]

Snakes dont hunt humans, their venom has developed to immobilise prey and break down body tissue of small mammals [mice etc.] in order to digest them. the biggest danger to humans and dogs is if the snake feels threatened, as in stood on or similar. You should have no trouble if you just remember to look where you walk, keep your grass short, dont give them anything to hide in.They are more frightened of you than you are of them. Keep your little dog inside of a night, if it makes you feel better. The snake skin you saw could be a harmless tree snake or carpet python.Dont stress, you'll be ok. Bob[ IMO Toyota drivers pose a bigger threat, and so far we dont have an antivenene for them]

[malleefowl]

Thanks for all the advice!
I am quite familar with the local brown snake population and certainly can identify the species I simply asked if the 2 shed skins would be from the same snake or did i possibly have a habitat situation the area is clean but shed has a lot of stuff on floor.Have sighted 5ft example withina metre and not on a confrontation situation.Not stressed out Just wanted to know if browns shed more than once annually.
Thanks,
Mary

[bob10]

One piece of advice I must pass on to you; never accept an apple from a snake, bad mistake, Bob. :twisted: :angel:[thumbsupbig]

[JohnF]

Do you have mice in your shed? Sure fire attraction for brown snakes.they eat lizards, frogs and small mammals. the juveniles may be strongly banded, the bands usually fading with maturity. they can be extremely aggressive, if provoked, will press home an attack.Not a snake to be spraying with anything. they strike repeatedly, and although the fangs and venom yield are small, the venom is highly neurotoxic and coagulant, with some blood destroying properties it is one of our most dangerous and deadly species. Apart from that you have nothing to worry about, [ used to get heaps in western Qld .when I was a kid] [the first time round.], Seriously, read up on snakebite first aid, have the appropriate first aid kit , educate your family, and DO NOT walk around outside after dark without a very good torch and bloody big stick Bob [I think you could get the mulga, or king brown out your way as well]

Usually but the stripes do not always fade, and not all striped snakes are deadly--brown tree snake for example, but always assume snake is deadly. And do what he says above-- learn first Aid for a snake bite. It is too late to read the book once you get bit.

In the northern rivers area, one guy got bitten by a brown snake, hoped in his car and drove himself to Lismore base hospital 10 minutes away. He died in hospital 10 minutes later, because he did not use the correct First Aid. It is so important to know the correct First Aid.