Worn sector shaft

[sich nich]

Hey everyone,
In the never ending battle to be rid of oil leaks in my D1 ('95 300tdi manual) I decided to tackle the leak from the bottom of my steering box, and renew the PAS lines at the same time. Scored a STC2848 kit for the job.

Once i got the pitman arm off (!!!no puller!:censored:!!) I realised the easiest way to remove the seals was to remove the sector shaft. So I removed the box from the disco and onto the bench. Sector shaft out, dust seal, circlip, and main seal. There I find fine metal paste in the bore and mixed in with all the loose needles. Seems the bearing outer casing has failed on both bearings in the middle, and trashed some of the needles' ends. No biggie, can replace those bearing no sweat.
The other thing is the damage on the sector shaft from this rubbish getting around in there. hopefully attached pics show this ok.
The diameters measure up ok with mics, 0.01mm below nominal in all areas worn or unworn, just some deep scratches between the two bearing areas.

I was wondering, should I set the shaft up in lathe at work and linish the bearing area to remove any high spots, or am I up for a new sector shaft, if there is such a thing. Linishing it should only remove another 0.01 perhaps.

Also, does anyone know part numbers (generic or LR) for the steering box input seal and dust seal?

[strangy]

Hi, in my opinion this shaft is dead.

Again in my opinion your choices are get the shaft repaired with metal spray and reground. I am not sure how hard these things are meant to be but the repairer should be able to sort that for you.
Otherwise a new shaft may well be cheaper.
In any case I wouldnt be re using this shaft regardless of linnishing.

cheers

[PhilipA]

The above just goes to show that once your bottom seal starts to leak , it is usually caused by the shaft moving side to side.

The old ones had a babbit bearing that failed , the newer ones show failure of the rollers etc.
So , once the seal starts to leak , usually a new seal only is not the answer. Its time for a new box or rebuild.
Same for swivel seals .
Regards Philip A

[chazza]

It would be tempting to re-use the sector shaft but it is part of a safety-system so I would be inclined to replace it, especially if it is scored.

Don't forget that the metal swarf is now all through the steering system, so you will need to strip and clean everything, otherwise the new bearings won't last ten minutes. The pump is probably damaged as well - nothing kills hydraulic systems quicker than dirt.

Hope it goes well,

Cheers Charlie

[PhilipA]

I have found when pulling one down about 20 years ago that the sector shaft bottom area is a "dead" zone with little circulation.

Also there is a filter in the reservoir tank . I would replace the ZF reservoir tank with a new one as the ZF tanks are not servicable.

But the rest should be OK.Eg I would not be stripping the pump .
Regard sPhilip A

[toc_bat]

Hi sich nich

could you tell us how thus job turned out? I am facing the same problem, have already removed the seal an d found the seal to be full of flakes or metallic debris.

I am interested in whether you had the sector shaft repaired - if so by whom? Or if you bought a new one or did an exchange, again if so which supplier.

The few land rover specialists I have been to asking for spares for the steering box internals have acted like there are no spares available, there is only their exchange service, and they are secretive about who does the work. But whoever does the work must have a source for new parts or they refurbish the old ones.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Bye

Ps how much did the job cost? As TR at Padstow quoted me $380 for an exchange box, I am thinking that it may cost me more to buy a new shaft and anything else that I might find worn.

[PhilipA]

Look on Ebay and Coffs hbr 4x4 are selling a brand new box for $655 plus freight including a new drop arm. BUT check it is an Adwest box. Otherwise gary at CLR has them for $800 including drop arm.
Assuming it is a D1 or RRC that takes QF500110.
Also be aware that there are 2types of drop arm .
Regards Philip A

[toc_bat]

Thanks Philip,

It is a Defender 110, 1996. But I assume the steering boxes are similar. I am keen to do the job myself, but if i was to get a replacement box I would go for the cheaper option at TR spares as I am short of money for this car.

I see in one of your posts in this thread you think the rest of the box should be ok including the pump. I assumed the metal flakes would have done damage to the worm as well and the pump too.

Also my manual tells me that the sector shaft is located in 3 bushes, Nich's is obviously in needle roller bearings. Did they change or could the manual be wrong?

bye and thanks

[PhilipA]

Also my manual tells me that the sector shaft is located in 3 bushes, Nich's is obviously in needle roller bearings. Did they change or could the manual be wrong?



the bottom bearing changed from a babbit bearing to needle roillers in mid 1992 on RRC and I presume the rest. Going by the VIN numbers mine has the needle rollers.
AFAIK RRC, Disco1 and Defender are all the same box. They certainly were back in the 80s.
Regards Philip A

[toc_bat]

Well, my sector shaft was badly damaged, and the needle roller cages had collapsed just like Nich's photos. I got a second hand shaft for $100. Just waiting on the bearings.

thanks all for the advice

[PAT303]

Some advice,do your swivel bearings and correct the pre-load.IMHO thats the reason the bearings colapsed. Pat

[PhilipA]

I bought a new steering box including drop arm from LR Direct for AFAIR GBP 299 based on my experience rebuilding one 25 years ago. I hope it will be plug and play.

I am still waiting for it but IMHO you would save yourself a lot of skinned knuckles if you buy a new one.

It is not only the sector shaft that wears and some of the other things can make the box a write off eg the worm, the roller, the piston.. All in all if the box has alot of Ks then it would be better to buy a new one.

Regards Philip A

[Dougal]

the bottom bearing changed from a babbit bearing to needle roillers in mid 1992 on RRC and I presume the rest. Going by the VIN numbers mine has the needle rollers.
AFAIK RRC, Disco1 and Defender are all the same box. They certainly were back in the 80s.
Regards Philip A

I believe it's as simple as 3 bolt top-cap boxes being bushing and 4 bolt top-cap boxes being needle bearing. Make sure you don't count the bleed screw or preload bolt in the 3/4 count.

[toc_bat]

Some advice,do your swivel bearings and correct the pre-load.IMHO thats the reason the bearings colapsed. Pat

which are the swivel bearings?

anyway after getting hold of a nice 2nd hand sector shaft, i pulled it all apart only to find the bearing surface on the worm shaft badly worn, drats, I consulted an english guy who works from home doing power steering repairs who told me that the wear on the worm shaft is very common, that it can be ground down but that there's not much point as it is soft material in the 1st place and that for the last 20yrs he has been ignoring it and has had no problems with the boxes he has serviced for his customers, hahaha, maaan, anyway considering the car made no steering whines or grinds or noises at all and it steered nicely and straight and this whole thing for me started as a simple seal replacement i am just going to install the new needle rollers and sector shaft and be done with it, if it fails down the road ill go looking for a new box for 299 pounds (by the way Philip can I have a contact for that source at that pirce?)

The needle rollers in my case both failed in the bottom end, the curved end, the end without the manufacturers markings/numbers and according to a few power steering specialists I have consulted it is always this part of the bearing they see has collapsed (apparently the bearing failure is VERY common, just about every box that comes to them due to the leaking seal - despite often not making any dubious noises - ends up with these bearings failed), well in my opinion the bearings themselves are either poor quality or they were poorly selected for the job.

[clubagreenie]

If you want to reco the shaft it needs to be re hard chromed, a process done by guys who re-manufacture hydraulic rams. They rechrome, then grind back to original size rather than "metal paste" etc. The main issue is the bottom seals fail and hold dirt/water in the area and it rusts. It's caused as the bushes wear the shaft can move eccentrically and open the seal allowing the crap in.

[PhilipA]

(by the way Philip can I have a contact for that source at that pirce?)


LR Direct.com
Part Number QAF 500110 GBP 299.98 excl VAT freight GBP 89.94 .
This was not the cheapest option in their catalogue as they always offer about 3 or 4 quality and price options, but is made by ADWEST and I am assured by answers to my Email questions includes the drop arm and the drop arm is the ball joint type.
I have had dealings with them quite a lot and found them good BUT you have to know the part number of what you want which involves research on Google or elsewhere.
I have not got it yet so I am waiting anxiously to ensure it is what I want, but I am quietly confident.( Like a Real Estate Agent who is always confident until he isn't)
BTW the freight of GBP 89 includes AFAIK from looking at their site up to 150Kg ! so you can add stuff. I added several other parts .
Regards Philip A

[toc_bat]

If you want to reco the shaft it needs to be re hard chromed, a process done by guys who re-manufacture hydraulic rams. They rechrome, then grind back to original size rather than "metal paste" etc. The main issue is the bottom seals fail and hold dirt/water in the area and it rusts. It's caused as the bushes wear the shaft can move eccentrically and open the seal allowing the crap in.

This is what I was initially planning on having done but about 1/2 of the power steering places I contacted when looking for another shaft advised against it saying the new chrome comes of relatively quickly if it is used with needle rollers, this type of chrome is suited to bushes. Ignoring the advice I went to one the chromers with my shaft asking for the job to be done and was told the same story, not a good idea if I plan to use needle rollers against the chrome. Then I came across a guy who had 3 very nice looking shafts.

And thanks for the file:///C:/Users/OFFICE%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.pngfile:///C:/Users/OFFICE%7E1/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.pngLR Direct.com details Philip, much appreciated.

[wrinklearthur]

I have found when pulling one down about 20 years ago that the sector shaft bottom area is a "dead" zone with little circulation. Philip A
Hi All

I wonder if a modification could be made to the four bolt box, to improve the flow of the lubrication to the bottom bearing.

If a hole was tapped into the casing, just below the bottom bearing and a oil return line was inserted there, that would allow the oil to return back to the reservoir.

Has anyone done this, or care to comment on this idea?

Cheers Arthur

[clubagreenie]

I've only had to re-chrome the seal areas never had it wear up at the bearings so that's probably on the money. We always go hold of it at seal leaking time, mind you it was 14-15 ears ago so those I did are getting very long in the tooth now too.

[Dougal]

Hi All

I wonder if a modification could be made to the four bolt box, to improve the flow of the lubrication to the bottom bearing.

If a hole was tapped into the casing, just below the bottom bearing and a oil return line was inserted there, that would allow the oil to return back to the reservoir.

Has anyone done this, or care to comment on this idea?

Cheers Arthur

I don't think lubrication is an issue, it's immersed in oil.
Debris accumulating down there perhaps.

[PhilipA]

I wonder if a modification could be made to the four bolt box, to improve the flow of the lubrication to the bottom bearing.


IMHO the basic cause of the failures in LR steering boxes is the high ratio putting sideways pressure on the sector shaft.

Most failures of the box in the plain bearing boxes were from the plain bearing wearing, then this opening up the clearance between the shaft and bearing leading to increased oil pressure reaching the seals when cold.

This increased pressure overpowers the seals when cold. I told the story some time ago that when I was in Riyadh on cold winter mornings at -5c or so there would be 5 oil tracks out the driveways of my house and my neighbors who all had RRCs.
I think essentially the same is happening with the roller bearing boxes, in that the sideways movement of the shaft is the start of the seals failing.

I can only theorise that the failures may be further exacerbated by the much wider tyres that are often fitted to Land Rovers these days. I have 245 width vs the original 205 width.

BTW mine started to leak after a period of steering rattle which I traced down to the swivel ball being loose on the end of the axle. Maybe that was the last straw for an old roller bearing.
That is why I am planning to fit a new box rather than replace seals as I think that failed seals are just a symptom of stuffed shaft.
Regards Philip A

[wrinklearthur]

I don't think lubrication is an issue, it's immersed in oil.
Debris accumulating down there perhaps.
Hi Dougal

IMHO, its the debris that causes the wear and added to the old fluid to become some form of grinding paste.

By creating a flow of fresh oil at that point, it would carry the old oil away, before the surfaces start to break down.

As a way of an example, look at a hydraulic motor, they have a extra return line to relieve oil pressure at the seals and feed that oil back to the reservoir.

Cheers Arthur

[rick130]

I wonder if part of the issue is no one ever bothers to replace their PS fluid ?

I've done it a couple of times, but it's a PITA.

I'm also wondering if we'd all be better of using a UTTO, hydraulic fluid or even a GL4 rated low viscosity transmission oil rather than ATF.

Apparently hydraulic fluids have considerably higher anti-wear additive levels than any ATF, something I wasn't aware of until recently.

[wrinklearthur]

I wonder if part of the issue is no one ever bothers to replace their PS fluid ?

I've done it a couple of times, but it's a PITA.

I'm also wondering if we'd all be better of using a UTTO, hydraulic fluid or even a GL4 rated low viscosity transmission oil rather than ATF.

Apparently hydraulic fluids have considerably higher anti-wear additive levels than any ATF, something I wasn't aware of until recently.
Hi Rick130

Whilst I do take the view that oil changes are cheaper than parts, changing the oil doesn't help a lot with these bottom bearings, as the dirty oil remains trapped and doesn't get flushed out.

At the risk of getting away from the theme of this thread, using a universal tractor transmission oil, would be a sensible thing to do where a operator needs to simplify their inventory of lubricants.
Universal Tractor Transmission Oil (UTTO) Additives - Driveline Lubricant Additives - The Lubrizol Corporation (http://www.lubrizol.com/DrivelineAdditives/OffHighway/UTTO/default.html)

Cheers Arthur
Back to the lawn mower!!! :cool: