Australia eyes British ships

[juddy]

Australia may purchase a Bay class ship from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary following talks between Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox and his Australian counterpart Stephen Smith.

The news comes during Fox and Foreign Secretary William Hague's official visit to the country.

Australia's Minister for Defence Stephen Smith said: "Dr Fox and I have agreed that our officials will now pursue that matter to see whether it is appropriate for Australia to add to its amphibious landing vessel and loading dock fleet by either leasing or acquiring such a Bay class vessel from the UK."

Smith had earlier said that purchasing Royal Navy vessels was "a prospect that may be of some interest to Australia".

The UK currently has four Bay class landing ship docks, with RFA Largs Bay due to be withdrawn from service in April this year following a decision made in last year's Strategic Defence and Security Review.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/619.jpg


On a side note...

Defence cuts two naval programs

The Minister for Defence and the Minister for Defence Materiel have announced the decommissioning of the HMAS Manoora and the LCM 2000 boat series

As part of today's announcement of a projects of concern update, the Government announced that the HMAS Manoora will be decommissioned. The ship first served in the US Navy from 1970 as the USS Fairfax County before being acquired by the RAN in 1994 and refitted. The Manoora, one of Australia's two amphibious landing ships, had been out of service since late last year due to several problems with the ship's engines and structure.


Today Minister for Defence Materiel Jason Clare announced that the ship, which had been scheduled for $17 million worth of work (which had not been put to tender), would be decommissioned, citing significant hull corrosion and the need to replace both gear boxes. As the ship was scheduled for decommissioning at the end of 2012, it was decided not to proceed with any repair work.


So what does this mean for SA industry? Not much- a lot of the work was semi-slated to be performed in Newcastle. The interesting part for SA is that replacement. In 2014 the first Canberra-class ship will go into operation, but until then Australia's amphibious capability will be constrained. There are currently rumours that Australia will either buy or lease a (currently mothballed) Bay-class Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) from the UK, either in our own right or possibly to be operated jointly with New Zealand. If the Bay class is acquired, there may be opportunities for some Australian outfitting.


Also on the chopping block was the LCM-2000 (Landing Craft, Mechanised). These vessels were purchased in 2001 from ADI (now Thales) to act as landing ships attached to the Manoora and Kanimbla, but there was one major issue- they were too big and heavy to fit in the LHD! Since first entering service in 2005, the LCM 2000s have had limited runs as training vessels out of Townsville. The axing of these vessels is no surprise.


A new series of LCMs (the LCM-1E) built by Navantia will enter service in 2014.

[ugu80]

Why doesn't the government just buy their stuff from China, like the rest of us.

[PhilipA]

We could even get stealth fighters I bet cheaper than the Yank ones.
BUT the owner manuals would be a challenge.

Regards Philip A

[one_iota]

umm..you drive a Land Rover? :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I thought we wanted inter-operability with NATO?

Yes we have close commercial and diplomatic ties with China but having their ships too may mean that when they try to invade us, all they will have to do is send out the kill switch command and all our Chinese naval & military equipment will be dead in the water.

Imagine having to ask them for spare parts if we are at war!

[PhilipA]

Well the Swedes wouldn't supply Carl Gustav ammunition during Vietnam.

So what is different . One never knows who your friends and enemies will be in the future.

In any case all the Chinese stuff will be a direct copy of the American stuff so we could use American parts.
Regards Philip A

[juddy]

And the American ships we have now, are over 40 years old, and you cant get parts for those either....:)

[PAT303]

Just more wasted $$$ to go with the already wasted Billions.It's OK though,it's only taxpayers money not the pollies. Pat

[Sully]

Pfffft... What the heck is that thing?

We need a bit of this gear I reckon.

http://www.sinous.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/aircraft-carrier.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I know this will sound silly,,
but why not just build our own,,
I'm told we used to do it a lot,,
and our navy's not that big, how many could we need??
and as for cost,, who cares?
its our money spent in our country,,
Id happily pay ten times what a chinese ships worth if the money and jobs stay here--

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I know this will sound silly,,
but why not just build our own,,
<snip>,
Id happily pay ten times what a chinese ships worth if the money and jobs stay here--Yes they we wouldn't have money to build school rooms in Indonesia!

[PAT303]

I know this will sound silly,,
but why not just build our own,,
I'm told we used to do it a lot,,
and our navy's not that big, how many could we need??
and as for cost,, who cares?
its our money spent in our country,,
Id happily pay ten times what a chinese ships worth if the money and jobs stay here--

Because the ADF would rather buy F18's,Sea Sprite Helicopters,Abrams Tanks,F35 JSF's and all the other obsolete or outdated crap the Yanks don't want and them try and make them perform like new ones. Pat

[juddy]

And what's betting the nh90 loses the naval helicopter bid
even though it's the better helicopter and will be built here .

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Quite a few years ago I was informed of a deal between Aust/US re amphibious capable ships,the deal went like this,you can't order new ships,as the Indo's etc will scream favouritism,so we will sell you 2 of our old ships,when they arrive you lot start screaming they are worn out, we then state return them to us and we will replace them,;)(as they were already building 2 new ones for us) BUT, there was an election in Australia, the new Minister stated no, we will keep them and have them rebuilt at Newcastle :confused: and so that was the saga of Manoora and Kanimbla.

Both ships named after vessels that served during and after WW11 they were impressed Burns-Philip ships.


cheers

[PAT303]

And what's betting the nh90 loses the naval helicopter bid
even though it's the better helicopter and will be built here .

Better helicopter,it's the best helicopter flying today.I would be even better partnered with Lynx's. Pat

[BMKal]

Because the ADF would rather buy F18's,Sea Sprite Helicopters,Abrams Tanks,F35 JSF's and all the other obsolete or outdated crap the Yanks don't want and them try and make them perform like new ones. Pat

Not to mention that Australia's two main shipbuilders these days, Austal in WA and Incat in Hobart, are flat out building ships for the American military. ;)

[juddy]

Better helicopter,it's the best helicopter flying today.I would be even better partnered with Lynx's. Pat

The lynx is a fine helicopter, and as served the RN as well as many other nations very well over the years, even to the point that the MOD ordered 30 plus of the new version called wildcat, more to do with winning votes this one, as theres very little need for 30 + lynx's almost all of the type 23 Frigates have been converted to take merlin, Type 44 the same thats 19 ships, 4 type 22's carried 1 lynx each ( but had hanger for 2 ) all decommissioned by may 2011, type 42, i think theres 3 left, these have lynx, and lastly Endurance x2, never to sail again, so a lot of lynx's sitting in a huge hanger in Somerset for the next 20 years.

What Australia should also do is by this ship, to replace that obsolete supply ship of there's, this one just been decommissioned from the RN, recently had a 18 million pound refit, so it is in first class condition.... a all in one multi tasking ship...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/599.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/600.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/601.jpg

[3toes]

If you have a shopping list there is not much in the Royal Navy that is not for sale at the moment.

With current cuts to the RN if they go through by 2017 the RAN will have more ships.

A relative if mine in the RAN sent me a very funny e-mail with the British trade minister and defence Minster in Sydney navy base as London east end used boat salesmen attempting to sell us some one careful owner only slightly used RN ships. Complete with power point views of how the harbour would look with the boats parked there. I have unfortunately deleted it or would have put up here.

Went something like this.

Don't miss the 2 for one offer on aircraft carriers. Cant wait for it to finish building we have a loaner you can borrow while you wait. No we don't want it back. What about aircraft for the carrier we can do a deal there too. Need someone to fly and maintain the aircraft we have a range of highly skilled people who could be included in the deal. ....and so on although by someone who could write




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[one_iota]

Two Spanish built ships for our navy. One has just been launched:

Navy's biggest ship takes to the water - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/18/3142291.htm)

The video is worth watching.

[101RRS]

Two Spanish built ships for our navy. One has just been launched:

Navy's biggest ship takes to the water - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/18/3142291.htm)

The video is worth watching.
I am not sure why they have left the ski jump on our version of the Spanish ship. It is something that Harriers use - not an aircraft we will be buying.

Garry

[one_iota]

Indeed!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/588.jpg

Haven't the poms discontinued the harriers?

[juddy]

While the tender released for the Canberra class did not specify that the ships needed to be capable of operating STOVL fixed wing aircraft, it has been proposed that such a capacity be included in the final design. In 2004 a review by the Australian Parliament's Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade recommended that the Australian government should consider purchasing a small number of F-35B Lightning II‎ for the Fleet Air Arm to operate from the Canberra class ships.

In March 2008, the RAN was reported to have requested that the government purchase a third Canberra class ship fitted out as an aircraft carrier and STOVL fighter aircraft to operate from it, another Hobart class destroyer, and Tomahawk cruise missiles. The same report states that the Rudd government was unlikely to approve this request. This wish list made by Navy chief Vice Admiral Russ Shalders immediately before his replacement was ultimately never accepted in that timeframe due to naval manpower shortages and sweeping national budget cuts.

Also strange its not going to be fitted with CIWS, just Typhoon x4.

[gazk]

I am not sure why they have left the ski jump on our version of the Spanish ship. It is something that Harriers use - not an aircraft we will be buying.

Garry

Part of the original Spanish design, costs more to take it off ?

[wagoo]

Where's Brian (Hejlm) on this?
"The Poms wouldn't have an ****** clue on how to build a ship.They are so heavy they probably won't float. They'll fit a puny 2hp engine where what we really need is 2 million, and they'll have left over Lucas electrics from crappy old Leyland trucks to boot":);).
Wagoo.

[PhilipA]

Part of the original Spanish design, costs more to take it off ?
It was on the news last night.
I think the RAN boys may have pulled one over the Government on this.
It looks like an Aircraft Carrier
It sounds like an Aircraft Carrier
To my mind it IS an Aircraft Carrier.
Next the RAN boys will say to the Government"We need a few F35s for "self protection"

Regards Philip A

[juddy]

Where's Brian (Hejlm) on this?
"The Poms wouldn't have an ****** clue on how to build a ship.They are so heavy they probably won't float. They'll fit a puny 2hp engine where what we really need is 2 million, and they'll have left over Lucas electrics from crappy old Leyland trucks to boot":);).
Wagoo.

Hold on there, lets put brain into gear, the British have been a nation of fine ship builders, yes over the last few decades these numbers have declined, due to competion from overseas cheaper labour rates etc, but the ships that we still build are as good as any other nations ships.

Take type 45, one of the most efficient ships built for the RN, almost all the decommissioned type 21/22s have gone on to serve with other nations, as there such good ships.

Not to mention the likes of QE2, canberra, and Oriana all great ships and served well past there time...

[PAT303]

Juddy,wagoo's taking the ****. Pat

[juddy]

:D:D:D:D
Juddy,wagoo's taking the ****. Pat

:D

[wagoo]

:D:D:D:D

:D

You didn't notice these " " .Have a look on Brians posts about anything built by the Poms.

BTW. I'm a Pom.
Wagoo.

[one_iota]

I thought that Wagoo as referring to the Titanic until I caught the wink.;)

[Ace]

I think the Queen should just give us one. Surely Gillard and the Queen can hook up and organise it. Girl Power :D

[juddy]

I think the Queen should just give us one. Surely Gillard and the Queen can hook up and organise it. Girl Power :D

Yes she should give us ark royal....:wasntme:

[Nero]

Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade recommended that the Australian government should consider purchasing a small number of F-35B Lightning II‎ for the Fleet Air Arm to operate from the Canberra class ships.

In March 2008, the RAN was reported to have requested that the government purchase a third Canberra class ship fitted out as an aircraft carrier and STOVL fighter aircraft to operate from it, .

The entire F-35 Stvol program is on the chopping block ATM F-35 in South Burlington: F-35 STOVL variant in trouble (http://f35insouthburlington.blogspot.com/2010/11/stovl-variant-in-trouble.html) for the RAN to operate a full sized carrier it would have to almost double its man power. They pretty much have no fixed wing experience anymore small details like that never stop military equipment purchases. Supposedly one of the criteria for the FA-18 purchase was carrier capability the fact we didn't have a carrier? small detail!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yes she should give us ark royal....:wasntme:

should fit straight in--
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/563.jpg

[TerryO]

I thought that Wagoo as referring to the Titanic until I caught the wink.;)


Can't blame the Poms for the Titanic it was built in Ireland ;)

cheers,
Terry

[Bearman]

The Fairey Swordfish torpedo bomber, not to be sneezed at, despite its looks and lack of speed was instrumental in the sinking of the Bismarck and it is reputed to have sunk over a million and a half tons of enemy shipping in WW2.

[bob10]

The Australian newspaper, Feb. 19, 2011, 12:00 am. Exclusive Chris Kenny.

The Navy is facing a critical shortage of engineers to maintain and run its fleet, raising grave doubts about its ability to operate more than $ 50 billion worth of new ships and submarines due to be delivered over the next decade.
An internal report obtained by the Weekend Australian has delivered a scathing assessment of naval engineering, which it says has reached a critical low point and is rocked by " cancerous" morale problems, a massive shortfall in numbers, and a broken management system. "The current situation has an urgency and a criticality that cannot be overstated", says the Nov. 2009 report on the Strategic Review of Naval Engineering. " Navy is potentially exposed due to the poor state of engineering policy should their be further accidents.
Despite the strong language and damning findigs, the report was not sent to the Minister at the time.

The reports relevations com in the wake of current Defence Minister Stephen Smith's angry rebuke to the navy this week for the mismanagement of its amphibious fleet, which meant none of its three largest ships was seaworthy to help in the aftermath of Cyclone Yasi. The troubled fleet will be replaced in three years by two new helicopter landing dock ships. The hull of the first new boat was launched in Spain yesterday.'

The Australian revealed las week that two-thirds of the navy's fleet were unable to operate at full capacity at some stage in the first half of last year because of repairs, maintenance, crew shortages or operational restrictions.

The navy's engineering report has alarmed the top brass because engineers play such a pivotal role in maintaining and runnig the fleet. It says the navy has failed to upgrade the skills of its engineers to prepare them "to manage the challenges of new capabilities such as air warfare destroyers, landing helicopter dock ships and new submarines."

As a result, there is a "grave" morale problem among engineers. "The negative attitude of some sailers is cancerous and can quickly pervade large sectors of the fleet support unit, souring many junior sailors even before their first sea-going experience."

The report makes a range of recommendations but says more money and more personnel are needed urgently. It traces the current crisis to multiple reform, efficiency and cost-saving initiatives over the past two decades, which it says have fragmented, diluted and strained the navy's resources.

Much of the report focuses on personnel, skills and training, noting that the navy's need for engineering knowledge and experience has never been greater but that the current status is cause for "grave concern."

The review was commissioned by the Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Russ Crane, and chaired by retired Air Vice Marshall Julie Hammer, a former president of Engineers Australia, who told The Weekend Australian her work ended when she handed the report to the Chief of Navy more than a year ago.

The navy has initiated a "remediation plan" and this week Mr Smith also appointed businessman Paul Rizzo to head a team of experts to improve the management and repair of naval ships.

In a speech to the defence industry, Mr Smith said maintenance should be "bread and butter business" for Defence and stressed that "the seeds of the problems we now face were sown more than a decade ago".

The engineering report gives voice to concerns about a lack of corporate management that some Defence insiders have complainedof privately for many years. It identifies "serious problems" in career management, saying navy personnel need to have higher qualifications.

Describing the technical sailer community as "in crisis", the review outlines a lack of training and "meaningful work" for sailers when they are not at sea.

Simply put, it points out that hundreds of technical sailors attached to fleet support units such s Garden Island in Sydney are sitting idle, underworked and under-trained, even while the navy is struggling to keep ships in service.

The report recommends ensuring these technical sailors are put to sea more often and given more shore-based work.

It also recommends greater recognition and promotion for engineering professionals, who are often overlooked in favour of sea command personnel.

At the same time, it notes that civilian engineering and technical officers working within the navy hae been reduced in number from "many hundreds in the 1980s to a fraction of that number today."

The report recommends urgent action to recognise the problem and provide more people and more money.

"Navy is fundamentally a technological service," it says. "Its war-fighting ability is critically dependent on the engineering design of its platforms and systems and the state of serviceability in which they are maintained."

The report was completed in late 2009 but not sent to then defence minister John Faulkner. Mr Smith, who became Defence Minister last September, was briefed on its findings this year and a spokesman for him says the Chief of Navy has accepted 73 of the report's 76 recommendations.

Defence associate at the Lowy Institute James Brown said last night the report was further evidence of the size of the problems facing the navy.

"This is a navy that is tactically excellent but technically bankrupt." he said.

"We are probably past working out who is to blame and we need to now work out how to fix it.".......................

Having been trained in the system centred on the Apprentice Training School at Quakers Hill, Sydney, [ H.M.A.S.Nirimba], widely recognised as the benchmark for engineering sailors training since 1952, [closed by the Gov. in a " costcutting exercise"] I find the article disturbing and more than a little distressing. New ships? not without TRAINED SAILORS TO RUN THEM. Bob.

[101RRS]

There is nothing new in all that - same old issues - certainly not to be ignored, however the RAN has one of the highest operational efficiencies of any Navy in the world.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The Fairey Swordfish torpedo bomber, not to be sneezed at, despite its looks and lack of speed was instrumental in the sinking of the Bismarck and it is reputed to have sunk over a million and a half tons of enemy shipping in WW2.The Fairey Swordfish only succeeded in disabling the steering and that only happened because the Germans couldn't conceive being attacked by such a slow aircraft and the automatic targeting system could not calibrate down to their speed.

On the Bismark despite numerous hits by ship fired torpedoes and other naval projectiles it has been revealed by naval archaeologists that the Bismark was scuttled by the Germans confirming German claims at the time.

The Swordfish did however manage to sink a number of Italian cruisers at anchor in Toranto.

[PAT303]

The biggest problem with the ADF in general is the total disrespect of it's members.All the people I know who served in the forces left because it didn't give a stuff about thier families so they left.Almost all of them got fed up with halfwit officers who talked down to them even though many had oversea's deployment experience and in the end they got sick of it. Pat

[PAT303]

The entire F-35 Stvol program is on the chopping block ATM F-35 in South Burlington: F-35 STOVL variant in trouble (http://f35insouthburlington.blogspot.com/2010/11/stovl-variant-in-trouble.html) for the RAN to operate a full sized carrier it would have to almost double its man power. They pretty much have no fixed wing experience anymore small details like that never stop military equipment purchases. Supposedly one of the criteria for the FA-18 purchase was carrier capability the fact we didn't have a carrier? small detail!

Well there goes another Billion dollars:mad:. Pat

[FISHGUTS]

Totally agree PAT303, did 22 years in the Aust Navy '74 to '96 & the sole reason for leaving was that they could not give me a posting that would leave me in the same area for the duration of my 2 oldest daughters high school period. Not even shore then sea then shore (such as 3 years on Garden Island (WA) then 2 years on a WA based ship then back to Garden Island) so I left. There are several guys I joined with still serving & they find it hard going. The rot had set in back before I resigned, change for change sake, cost cutting like you would not believe & the attitude of the young new officers of the time (as pointed out earlier) have no idea what the service is all about. Got a piece of paper that says I'm smart so the rest of you are dumb & don't know anything.
Russ Crane was my skipper for 2 years & if anyone can fight a good fight he can, just hope he can make a little headway with the beaurecrats.

Cheers,

Peter.

[juddy]

The Fairey Swordfish only succeeded in disabling the steering and that only happened because the Germans couldn't conceive being attacked by such a slow aircraft and the automatic targeting system could not calibrate down to their speed.

On the Bismark despite numerous hits by ship fired torpedoes and other naval projectiles it has been revealed by naval archaeologists that the Bismark was scuttled by the Germans confirming German claims at the time.

The Swordfish did however manage to sink a number of Italian cruisers at anchor in Toranto.

Which for its age, it did a very good job for a plane made out of wood,canvas, old bed springs..... and it was the swordfish that crippled the rudders of Bismark in the first place, allowing the british fleet to gain ground, she was a sitting duck, and then received a massive pounding from the Royal Navy,Captain Lindemann then gave the order to scuttle and then abandon ship, the RN were out of ammunition and had to leave the area.....

Interesting too that Bismarks sister ship the Tirpitz, never fired against allied shipping, only land targets, and was eventually sunk by a number of Lancaster bombers with the famous barns wallis tallboy bomb

[bob10]

There is nothing new in all that - same old issues - certainly not to be ignored, however the RAN has one of the highest operational efficiencies of any Navy in the world.

Garry
I'm not sure about that, yes the ships on operations are highly efficient, but I dont recall ships having to be laid up alongside for lack of crew/ mantainence in the 21 years I spent in the service.Same old issues? Not back before "costcutting" became a buzzword. I don't recall any of the "o" boats laid up for lack of crew- could be wrong.And we had a Fleet Air Arm back then. We had similar maintainence problems, difference being we had the motivated well trained maintainers to keep things rolling. I have the utmost respect for all our Servicemen and Women, it's not their fault our politicians and public service were shortsighted and pulled apart a system that was working to save money. Bob

[PAT303]

Which for its age, it did a very good job for a plane made out of wood,canvas, old bed springs..... and it was the swordfish that crippled the rudders of Bismark in the first place, allowing the british fleet to gain ground, she was a sitting duck, and then received a massive pounding from the Royal Navy,Captain Lindemann then gave the order to scuttle and then abandon ship, the RN were out of ammunition and had to leave the area.....

Interesting too that Bismarks sister ship the Tirpitz, never fired against allied shipping, only land targets, and was eventually sunk by a number of Lancaster bombers with the famous barns wallis tallboy bomb

The swordfish did well because it had no opposition.Had they fought against the Japanese in the Pacific in battles like the Coral sea fight and Midway they would have been cut from the skies.They were a good plane but against Zero's they would have suffered 100% casualties. Pat

[PAT303]

Totally agree PAT303, did 22 years in the Aust Navy '74 to '96 & the sole reason for leaving was that they could not give me a posting that would leave me in the same area for the duration of my 2 oldest daughters high school period. Not even shore then sea then shore (such as 3 years on Garden Island (WA) then 2 years on a WA based ship then back to Garden Island) so I left. There are several guys I joined with still serving & they find it hard going. The rot had set in back before I resigned, change for change sake, cost cutting like you would not believe & the attitude of the young new officers of the time (as pointed out earlier) have no idea what the service is all about. Got a piece of paper that says I'm smart so the rest of you are dumb & don't know anything.
Russ Crane was my skipper for 2 years & if anyone can fight a good fight he can, just hope he can make a little headway with the beaurecrats.

Cheers,

Peter.
My younger brother was moved 3 times in twelve months and has four kids in school.After complaining about it he was told that if the army wanted him to have a family he would have been issued one so he decided to leave then and there.Friends of mine in Perth have been to Afganistan,Iraq and Timor and still couldn't get a stable position for the sake of thier children so again see ya. Pat

[bob10]

" the attitude of the young new officers of the time (as pointed out earlier) have no idea what the service is all about. Got a piece of paper that says I'm smart so the rest of you are dumb & don't know anything"

Cheers,

Peter.[/QUOTE]
I can relate to that, however, I remember the crusty old Chiefs who would chew up a snotty nosed subbie. and spit him out if he dared take that line. the Senior Sailors of that time were , as the rule, highly respected, or if that didn't work, feared.The really good Skippers [ and there were quite a few] would back their Snr Sailors to the hilt, woe betide some jumped up egotripper who upset Sailors in their department.I assume this has changed , the old hands have mostly left, and those remaining are not backed up.I will be controversial, throw the cat in the pidgeon coop, and say this probably became an issue about the same time as Women went to sea. :angel::twisted: :vampire: BRACE,BRACE,BRACE, take cover!

[FISHGUTS]

Bob,

Correct, but I don't think so much the female angle it was more the "do gooders" with their "you have rights" which was taught at recruit school rather than the old do as your told and complain about it to whom ever after you have complied with the order. This flies right in the face of the protocols expected to maintain core discipline & rank structure compliance to ensure the survival of the unit be it a sea going vessel or an army unit.
They can't man ships because the kids of today don't want to be told what to do (this runs right alongside the Alcohol Fueled Violence thread currently in General chat). A return to the older values will not happen so we are going to have ships tied up along side empty waiting for crews. There is excellent money thrown at todays sailors with very good additional incentives when posted to a sea going vessel but still struggle to get the numbers.

"Defaulters muster Coxswains office flat"

Cheers,

Peter.

[bob10]

Peter, good to hear someone talk sense, I did throw the female angle in as bait, I do know there are some excellent woman at sea, but will admit it is not a ship I would like to serve on.I had the same opinion of the youth of today, until the Brisbane floods. A large proportion of those who turned out to help, even before the official effort, were young people. The effort they put in was outstanding . However, as we both know, a warship at sea when the s##t hits the fan is not the place for a debate on social rights. Lets hope we never have to put our ships in harms way in a real shooting war,and if we do, we have some people willing to kick a##e and take names, regardless of the effect on their promotion prospects.Now, I must get my mind on our next trip away in the d2[ as far from the sea as possible] Bob

Liberty men to clean! [D.D.G. talk]

[juddy]

The swordfish did well because it had no opposition.Had they fought against the Japanese in the Pacific in battles like the Coral sea fight and Midway they would have been cut from the skies.They were a good plane but against Zero's they would have suffered 100% casualties. Pat

Not a fair comparison, zero v swordfish, the RAF were in the far east pacific campaign, and a better match would have to be the Seafire, a outstanding aircraft, and it shot down more zeros than they did seafire's

maybe Swordfish v Kawasaki Ki-10I.......

[Hamish71]

This thread is full of some of the most opinionated, biased BULL**** I have ever heard.
On the technical side, Nh90 best helicopter...pigs arse!
Army and navy recruiters telling people that if the needed families they would be issued? Are you ****ing kidding me? Get real.

[juddy]

This thread is full of some of the most opinionated, biased BULL**** I have ever heard.
On the technical side, Nh90 best helicopter...pigs arse!
Army and navy recruiters telling people that if the needed families they would be issued? Are you ****ing kidding me? Get real.

and the pro's con's for each bid??? re nh90 ??

[bob10]

Not a fair comparison, zero v swordfish, the RAF were in the far east pacific campaign, and a better match would have to be the Seafire, a outstanding aircraft, and it shot down more zeros than they did seafire's

maybe Swordfish v Kawasaki Ki-10I.......
Interesting to see the Japanese based their attack on Pearl Harbour on the R.N. Fleet Air Arm attack on the Italian Fleet at Taranto [I think thats it] Just a thought- if the Brits could have developed their Air Force and Fleet Air Arm, along with a proper tank force for the Army, more mobile Army and More Carriers, would the 2nd World War have developed as it did? Bob

[bob10]

Army and navy recruiters telling people that if the needed families they would be issued? Are you ****ing kidding me? Get real.
I can assure you that the reality is jnr. and snr N.C.O'S have been using just that very line snce Nelson and Wellingtons day, dont know where you got the idea recruiters do it, that is bull****. their role is to get you in , then the reality hits.My experience? My first child was born whilst I was on the way to Hawaii, we came back for a month , then went to Asia for 6 months. And after that more of the same.Did I like it? no. Did I complain? no- it was my job. Did my wife like it, or complain? not to me. Are we happy now I am out[1985] yes. But I, AND all of my mates, never complained too much about the job we signed on for.REALITY CHECK? GOT A MIRROR AT HOME?

[juddy]

I think this thread as gone off track alittle, non the less if it was not for the many brave souls who fought to save the things we value you now, we would now all be driving around in either bmw's, Merc's, or even toyota's, and maybe eating frankfurter's ( maybe some would say a good thing ). But i 110% respect what was done there, for the freedom of the commonwealth and others nations, and the sacrifice that members of my family and other families did to gain freedom over the Axis powers!

Hopefully such a event will never happen again, and you never know the rn/ran may well one day become great sea powers once agian :eek:...

[Nero]

Well there goes another Billion dollars:mad:. Pat

To the best of my Knowledge Australia is not signed up to the STOVL version, We will be getting the regular version the STOVL will have a significantly reduced payload and range compared tot eh regular version. In a earlier post in this thread it was suggested that the ski jump would be suitable for it.

[PAT303]

This thread is full of some of the most opinionated, biased BULL**** I have ever heard.
On the technical side, Nh90 best helicopter...pigs arse!
Army and navy recruiters telling people that if the needed families they would be issued? Are you ****ing kidding me? Get real.

Yeh mate,my brothers a liar;). Pat

[THE BOOGER]

Pat I think if you clarify that with your brother it was said as a joke been said as a joke for a couple of hundred years used it myself as an NCO but anybody saying it in a serious way today would be "counselled" seriously:o
besides most recruiters day are civies there arnt enougth uniformed staff to waste on recruiting:(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not a fair comparison, zero v swordfish, the RAF were in the far east pacific campaign, and a better match would have to be the Seafire, a outstanding aircraft, and it shot down more zeros than they did seafire's

maybe Swordfish v Kawasaki Ki-10I.......The Brits did have similarly outdated aircraft in Malaya and they were totally devastated by Japanese Zero and Betty bombers. The British aircraft essentially played no effective part in the defence of Malaya or Singapore.

The Fleet Air Arm was supposed to play a part in the Defence of Singapore, the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse were sent to the Eastern Fleet with the aircraft HMS Indomitable however the aircraft carrier was delayed by damage so the Prince of Wales and Repulse were sent ahead without air cover and were sunk by Japanese bombers soon after. If the Indomitable was present it is likely there would also be an aircraft carrier with it's swordfish lying on the bottom next to the two cruisers.

The swordfish would have been a good aircraft if WWII started in the 1920's but by the mid 1930's they were seriously outdated yet the Brits kept them into the 1940's.

[juddy]

The swordfish would have been a good aircraft if WWII started in the 1920's but by the mid 1930's they were seriously outdated yet the Brits kept them into the 1940's.[/quote]

And the Brits never change, there only just getting rid of Nimrod, thats about 50 years old, and was once the Comet..... and replacing it with another 45 year plus old plane the 707..... still it looks ok i suppose and uncle Sam will be happy..
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/482.jpg

[Hamish71]

Yeh mate,my brothers a liar;). Pat

Didnt say anyone was lying....but perhaps you should take what your brother said with a pinch of salt. Might make a good fireside story, but thats about it.....and take some of Bobs advice....



I can assure you that the reality is jnr. and snr N.C.O'S have been using just that very line snce Nelson and Wellingtons day, dont know where you got the idea recruiters do it, that is bull****. their role is to get you in , then the reality hits.My experience? My first child was born whilst I was on the way to Hawaii, we came back for a month , then went to Asia for 6 months. And after that more of the same.Did I like it? no. Did I complain? no- it was my job. Did my wife like it, or complain? not to me. Are we happy now I am out[1985] yes. But I, AND all of my mates, never complained too much about the job we signed on for.REALITY CHECK? GOT A MIRROR AT HOME?


As for the NH90....wrong helicopter for the job. It is not a battlefield helicopter, its design is not that way oriented, and I could list the problems....but maybe not on a public forum. Suffice to say...good helicopter, wrong helicopter for the job. Put "NH90 Problems" into Google. Anything you read about the floor, engines, need for hardstanding (not a battlefield), rotor blade cushion, lift capacity, individual soldier weights "might" :) be true. Dont believe me? GO and have a look at all the NOTAMs.

The Bay Class will happen. Its too good a deal not to.