Batteries on a concrete floor

[Bundalene]

Fact or fiction?

Batteries stores on a concrete floor will flatten and become unusable.

I had a few mates around the other day and it was noted that I was doing the wrong thing by keeping a lead acid battery on a concrete floor in the shed. I was told that they would age prematurely and become useless. Both agreed.


I had never heard of this and couldn't see the logic, but put it onto a block of wood regardless.


So I googled this and it appears to be a load of rubbish.

Any comments?

Erich

[Ean Austral]

Never heard of that before either Erich...

Better the batteries on the floor than me :p


What was the logic behind them going flat ? and how does sitting on wood stop it..

Cheers Ean

[BigJon]

I have heard of it.

Something to do with the concrete being colder than the air surrounding the battery, so convection currents are set up in the acid.

[Narangga]

I have heard of it.

Something to do with the concrete being colder than the air surrounding the battery, so convection currents are set up in the acid.

Not up here. :(

[Tombie]

It's rubbish... Now...

But decades ago.... :D

[The ho har's]

Yep soon as I read the title ...NO


not sure why but coming from a mechanical background it was always so.

must ask POP why..my stepdad:)

Mrs hh:angel:

[The ho har's]

It's rubbish... Now...

But decades ago.... :D

you may have something in this....my pop retired a few years ago now and things certainly have changed since then...

Mrs hh:angel:

[drivesafe]

The advice dates back nearly one hundred years ago. Batteries use to be made of timber coated with tar, these did not like being left on any surface and were placed on timber spaces.

If they were placed on concrete they could discharge but I think it had more to do with the tar coating being damaged rather than the concrete having any chemical effect.

[B92 8NW]

you may have something in this....my pop retired a few years ago now and things certainly have changed since then...

Mrs hh:angel:

I think it was more to do with the floor being ruined, not the battery, this got lost in translation and it got to where it is today.

Other theories say the lime in concrete discharges the battery.

[Quarks]

I've got 3 batteries sitting on a concrete floor, and 2 of them are cactus now! :o:o:o







But they were like that when I put them there! :p:p

The other one, which was retired from the Disco last year, and is now on 'portable aux' duties, seems fine. I'd charged up, then left for 3 months, then hooked the charger on it again this morning, but it wasn't needing much. ;)

[p38arover]

I've known of that belief for longer than I've been driving i.e., over 50 years, but I've never understood why it came about. Being an electronics tech, it didn't make sense to me.

[Bushie]

Have also heard of this one, never really known whether it was true or not, but any battery I stored on a concrete floor was usually destined for battery heaven.

A quick google found this

In the early 1900s, when battery cases were made of porous materials such as tar-lined wood boxes, storing batteries on concrete floor would accelerate their natural self-discharge due to external leakage. Modern battery cases are made of polypropylene or hard rubber. These cases are sealed better, so external leakage-causing discharge is no longer a problem, provided the top of the battery is clean and free from wet or dried electrolyte and the same temperature as the floor.
Large differences in temperature could cause electrolyte stratification within very large batteries (>250 AH) which could accelerate it's internal "leakage" or self-discharge if the battery is sitting on an extremely cold concrete, stone or steel floor in a warm room, boat or submarine. Stirrers or bubblers are often used on these types of large batteries to keep the electrolyte from stratifying. Undercharging will also cause electrolyte stratification, which can also result in loss of capacity from sulfation.
Martyn

[Blknight.aus]

The logic I've got on it is more for charging than storage and theres a side logic for storage on a wooden surface.

the logic against charging is to do with the convection currents setup within the battery while charging. The batteries warm up when they get charged, if you have it sitting on a cold slab then the hot stuff gets to the top and stays there, hot acid is better at taking a charge than the cold stuff so the batteries plates dont get "used" equally when you then let the battery sit the acid sorts itself out within the cell over time (or when you chuck it in the car and start driving it around) because the reaction is more evenly distributed during use the plates get deposits forming at the same rate. The deposits forming limit the usefullness of the plate and therefore the battery. Done often enough the deposits will form bridges and short out within the cell and thats the end of the battery.

The secondary logic for not storing your batteries directly on the concrete comes about when something goes wrong with the battery and it leaks, Its easier to chuck out a piece of timber thats been acid marked than it is to clean up the mess that forms on the concrete. This is especially relevant if the cement has reo in it and is not sealed. If the acid makes it to the metal it promotes oxidisation and that cracks the cement.

[drivesafe]

The logic I've got on it is more for charging than storage and theres a side logic for storage on a wooden surface.

the logic against charging is to do with the convection currents setup within the battery while charging. The batteries warm up when they get charged, if you have it sitting on a cold slab then the hot stuff gets to the top and stays there.

Hi Dave and I don’t often disagree with you but this one has a problem.

If the concrete kept the base of the battery cool and posed problems then any metal tray would cause an even greater potential problem because it would act like a big heat sink and transfer much greater amounts of battery heat, and would, if the theory was correct, make every vehicle’s battery tray a battery killer.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

[Blknight.aus]

yep, but then the battery is normally in the engine bay which is heated by the engine. Generally theres also a rubber mat in the bottom of most battery trays and in modern cars they have those insulation bags...

It does of course raise the real question of...

why if the convection current thing is true did the establishment that taught me that theory have a metal bench to charge the batteries on in the battery charging room?

[PhilipA]

Just checked my retired 6year old AGM the other day. I took it out about 4 months ago. Read 12.84 volts. Not too much wrong with that and sitting on concrete all that time.

Regards Philip A

[d2dave]

I fully agree with Drivesafe on this one. I have spoken to many a battery expert and they all say the same. It does not apply to modern batteries due to water/acid proof plastic cases.

Dave.

[Hamish71]

I cant answer the question....but I do know that during my time at 2 CAV in Darwin, over the wet season, batteries (**** loads of them) were removed from vehicles, and locked up on pallets connected to trickle chargers.

I always though it might have something to do with the use of lifting equipment.....but the only lifting equipment ever used was "biological".

[Johnno1969]

I've run into this one two, especially on a few jobs running safari camps, where people used to say we needed to keep the batteries from the solar system and inverter up on wooden blocks. I couldn't see how it would make any difference. All I can say is that all those batteries ended up resting on the concrete and were fine afterwards for a long time.....

[scott oz]

I've visited many sites with numerous engineers and they all advise that batteries should be kept off the ground/floor.

I believe it has to do with shortening the battery life but will ask and post their response.

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

I've visited many sites with numerous engineers and they all advise that batteries should be kept off the ground/floor.

I believe it has to do with shortening the battery life but will ask and post their response.
and to think many years ago they all thought the earth was flat, the earth was the centre of the universe,people were burned at the stake as they were thought to be witches, woman can not vote they were proven wrong. And in a couple of hundred years some one will prove that batteries on concrete was also a furphy.
May be it was brought upon by people constantly stubbing their toes on batteries placed on concrete, so the foreman said, all batteries must in future be off the ground and then some bright spark put a seed in to the mind of other that it was due to discharging :D

[scott oz]

It'sNotWorthComplaining!;1437531]and to think many years ago they all thought the earth was flat, the earth was the centre of the universe,people were burned at the stake as they were thought to be witches, woman can not vote they were proven wrong. And in a couple of hundred years some one will prove that batteries on concrete was also a furphy.[/I]
May be it was brought upon by people constantly stubbing their toes on batteries placed on concrete, so the foreman said, all batteries must in future be off the ground and then some bright spark put a seed in to the mind of other that it was due to discharging :D


Beliefs may have been facts in the past but as knowledge improves past facts become beliefs and it takes time for new facts to filter through.

So as I said I’ll ask a couple of engineers and see what they say and why?

[scott oz]

Well took a while but the engineer did get back to me.

In a nut shell

"might have been back when battery cases were made up of wood and asphalt"

He is not aware of any discharging issues or lowering battery performance or detrimental to life of a modern battery being placed on a concrete floor.

So another urban myth busted:o:o

(Still not puting mine on the concrete floor:angel:)

[drivesafe]

If you use a high current charger then keeping the batteries up off any floor, not just concrete, so that the batteries can get some form of air flow around them, is not a bad idea but, high current charging in itself IS a bad operating practice in the first place.

High current charging will cause the battery to warm up and having the battery in direct contact with any form of floor will slow heat radiating away from the battery, which in turn makes the high current charging just that bit harder on the battery.

All my batteries have always been housed on the floor of my workshops/garages but, other than during experiments and tests, under normal use, I have never had a need to fast charge batteries so over heating is not a problem.

So if you use a small current charger, again, there is no reason to remove batteries from a concrete floor.