fitted ARP studs to my 3.9 V8 today.

[PhilipA]

I have been stripping my 3.9V8 to fit an almost new pair of heads with ARP studs and you beaut head gaskets recommended by TRS.

After I do the second head possibly tomorrow , I will progress to the camshaft.
Just a few notes on the ARP studs.
It is easy to fit them to the heads by cleaning up the threads in the block and then installing the heads then hand screwing in the studs. The studs have an Allen socket in the top to help screw them in finger tight. The head and gasket are held by the dowels in the block

The issue of getting the heads over the studs does not arise.
As per several sets of instructions I lubed the washers and nuts with CRC Moly/graphite Assembly lube then tightened the nuts in 3 stages40-60-80 ft lbs (80 recommended by ARP using lube,or 85 with engine oil)
I then loosened each nut in sequence 2 more times and retightened, and got some more angle .
After the third torqueing, the instructions are to loosen off the nuts individually and then turn the stud by hand again until finger tight then torque once again..

One thing I found interesting is that the studs do not bottom in the block, the thread is quite a bit shorter than the tapped hole. The stud actually bottoms on the top of the stud coarse thread and has I estimate about 5-8 MM space under. So there is no need to chase the thread to the very bottom.
Its all pretty tedious and I could not imagine the average mechanic bothering but my impression is that this gasket is here to stay.

I bloody hope so anyway.

Regards Philip A

[Davo]

Thanks for the tips. I'm hoping to do the same thing eventually. Of course it's tedious - it's an engine!

[Nick S]

Hi Phillip, I recently used the ARP studs on a 4.6 that I put into my RRC, very impressed with the quality of the kit. I think that they a worth the $s and gets rid of the stretch bolt saga. As you say a tedious process but worth the effort
Nick

[LRCounty]

Just thought you might be interested.
I received my ARP head and main studs from the USA today.

They have been boxed with ARP Ultra-Torque lube included. This new lube eliminates the need for torque cycling apparently, so it's do it up once and that's it. No more undoing and re-torquing three times. I found the following video that explains simply, why the cycling has been necessary until now....I learnt something today :-)

YouTube - ARP Ultra-Torque Tested on Horsepower TV

Cheers
Andre

[County4.4]

what was the brand of you beaut gasket ??

[p38arover]

It is easy to fit them to the heads by cleaning up the threads in the block and then installing the heads then hand screwing in the studs. The studs have an Allen socket in the top to help screw them in finger tight. The head and gasket are held by the dowels in the block

The issue of getting the heads over the studs does not arise.

Now that's good to know. I had considered them for my engine.


One thing I found interesting is that the studs do not bottom in the block, the thread is quite a bit shorter than the tapped hole. The stud actually bottoms on the top of the stud coarse thread and has I estimate about 5-8 MM space under. So there is no need to chase the thread to the very bottom.

That might help avoid this type of cracking:

http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2010/04/last-word-on-land-rover-liner-failures.html

[Pedro_The_Swift]

bolts are so 20th century---:angel::p


so,, do I now ask my engine rebuilder what he used to lube my studs??

[PhilipA]

what was the brand of you beaut gasket ??

They didn't really have a prominent brand on the packaging, but I thought they were called "Perfect Seal" but I ran into a dead end on Google.

If you want them just call Triumph Rover Spares and they will sell them to you for $58 each. Ouch but worth it if they keep the gases and water in , which the OEM ones don't very well. Gas yes water no.
Regards Philip A

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I find it funny when I did mine not so long ago, they were keen to recommend OEM,,,

$58 is cheap insurance,,,;)

[clubagreenie]

I've used both std studs for the rover and had custom studs made by ARP for different applications and regardless of the lube they note to run a pre stretch. The initial torque cycling is to pre stretch the studs rather than build up the final tension. A better lube will reduce the friction and lessen the differences in final tension.

So I wouldn't eliminate the pre torque sequence, but the final sequence will be a better result with their lube.

[LRCounty]

I've used both std studs for the rover and had custom studs made by ARP for different applications and regardless of the lube they note to run a pre stretch. The initial torque cycling is to pre stretch the studs rather than build up the final tension. A better lube will reduce the friction and lessen the differences in final tension.

So I wouldn't eliminate the pre torque sequence, but the final sequence will be a better result with their lube.

To be honest, I've never thought about bolt/nut torque before. I've simply read the manual, and done it up to what it says.

Looking into the subject a little more in depth, has been like opening Pandora's box. I never knew there was so much involved. I too have read about "pre-stretching". But if you read about conrod bolts/nuts, and the absolute best way of torquing them, you need to buy a bolt stretch gauge and measure stretch, rather than torque. My reading indicated that if a bolt loses it's elasticity by remaining longer than the original relaxed length, after a nut has been released, then it needs to be replaced....so this has put a spanner in the works regarding my understanding of pre-stretching.
I haven't bought new conrod bolts and nuts, because I was planning to use the old ones....but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe research is over-rated. When my motor is finally back together, I'm going to have more doubts, and be more nervous when turning the key than ever before.....especially as this is my first ground up Rover v8 re-build. :-)

Cheers
Andre

[clubagreenie]

The trouble with the stretch gauge is it relies on access to both ends (like a rod bolt has) and gauging stretch in a stud involves pre stretching, then removing and measuring, comparing to chart and reinstalling and hoping that the torque is correct.

I have always had a cheap pair of head gaskets to use (single use) when pre stretching studs. In other words, loose assemble both sides with cheap gaskets and go through proceedure. Remove and reassemble with good gaskets and reassemble.

Just don't what I've seen done when studding cross bolts. Preinstalling the cross studs. Watched someone go crazy trying to work out how to fit the bearing cap in with studs sticking out.

[pibby]

I have been stripping my 3.9V8 to fit an almost new pair of heads with ARP studs and you beaut head gaskets recommended by TRS.

hi philip,

i'm looking at taking my heads off for a closer inspection and note that the ARP studs seem to be the highly recommended option. may i ask where you sourced them from? (or anyone else for that matter who has done this recently )shall also be on to TRS for the gaskets.

thanks,
brett.

i'm hoping someone in australia has them in stock.

[clubagreenie]

Rocket Industries (sydmey)are the major dealers, but expensive and don't want to know if it isn't chev or ford. Fabre (syd also) are very good and the cheapest I found. TRS on adelaide also sell them.

[PhilipA]

i'm hoping someone in australia has them in stock.

I bought mine at TRS after being let down by a USA internet seller.
Regards Philip A

[LRCounty]

I got mine from the US for about $60 less than a local retailer...and that was including shipping. They took a week to get here.

As Philip has indicated though...there is always a risk involved.

Cheers
Andre

[rpo83]

Hi Philip,

did you install the studs with the block in the car, or was the engine removed?

As i need to pull the heads off my V8, this seems like a good thing to do while the heads are off.

Cheers

Steve

[roverv8]

got mine in melbourne at this place

VPW Performance Mailorder (http://www.vpw.com.au/productgroup.asp?CatID=642&PrdGrpID=4573)

Part no 124-4003

[bee utey]

Hi Philip,

did you install the studs with the block in the car, or was the engine removed?

As i need to pull the heads off my V8, this seems like a good thing to do while the heads are off.

Cheers

Steve

I repaired a head on a vehicle with ARP head studs a few months ago. I couldn't lift the head off, there was too much interference in the bolt holes. As the studs are little more than finger tight it was actually easiest to remove all the studs, then to refit the head on two studs only and install the rest with a ball-ended allen key. No trouble at all.

[clubagreenie]

Mainly the back couple of studs are too high to allow the head to come off without interference with the firewall.

[bee utey]

Mainly the back couple of studs are too high to allow the head to come off without interference with the firewall.

All of the studs are too long if the head has to be lifted straight up. There's not that much slack in the head bolt holes. Take them all out, its quicker in the long run.

[clubagreenie]

On the D2 at least only the last two studs hinder removal as the head hits the firewall before clearing the studs. Might be different on different models though.

[PhilipA]

It's pretty much the same on all varients of RR, D1,D2 AFAIK.

I found it easier to just put the head on with no studs, as it sits in place on the dowels, then fit the studs.
The rear studs on an RRC fit with the head in place.

Regards Philip A

[tacr2man]

If its of interest , I was a mech for BL back in 70's , (not landrover) but we were using a computer controlled fastening tool for ali heads , that measured bolt yeild as it tightened them (air ratchet) , they had a usage counter on it as they had to pay a royalty everytime it was used , but it apparently saved them a fortune in headgasket warranty :o

[PhilipA]

Are we talking the same BL? maker of KV6 sold to Kia with about 100% head gasket failure rate. KV4 was similar . Not to mention RV8.

Pity they must have lost the tool somewhere.

Regards Philip A

[clubagreenie]

Now the wty is cheaper than the royalty on the tool. It's sitting on the assembly line at the head fitting point but there's no one left who knows what it does.

[MacMan]

I love the way that this place pops up high on the Google rankings if searching for info.

I've done some thinking about my current rebuild and I think I'll go for studs rather than a new set of bolts, and ARP seem to be the only company offering a kit. I have tried VPW - price good at $166, but 10 week wait (SERIOUSLY!). Called TRS, have in hand, $328 for the kit (HUH???). A set of bolts can be had for under $80. Now wondering if it's worth sniffing out a purchase on eBay ex USA for a little over AUD $200 landed.

Pressure to make a decision is off because the block has gone back to the machinists to have them redo some of their work to acceptable standards, but 10 weeks is a stretch.

Are there any other suppliers who do kits of studs? While I'm at it should I consider studs for the main caps as well?

[PhilipA]

it's worth sniffing out a purchase on eBay ex USA for a little over AUD $200 landed.

I originally ordered mine from the USA , but they strung me along for 3-4 weeks before telling me no stock, so I manned up and paid TRS.
Maybe try Rpi in UK, probably dearer but they should have them.
Regards Philip A

[clubagreenie]

Try Fabre in Lakemba Sydney. They have (had) in stock and were under $200- when I purchased.

[MacMan]

Thanks. I'll try Fabre tomorrow.

[LRCounty]

I ordered my head and main cap ARP Studs from the US and had no issue, but that may just be luck.
I also bought some ARP Ultra-Torque Fastener lubricant, which I am now a big fan of. A search for reviews on Google returns some interesting info.

My experience with ARP studs began with a question sent to a respected UK engine builder, who gave his opinion that Head nut torque with ARP studs should be 65-70 lbft on Rover V8's, because in his experience, anything around 75lbft and above is danger territory for stripping threads. He emphesised it was only his opinion and experience, and you know what they say about opinions.
He also said that with main cap studs, 65 lbft was his choice.

I ended up following his advice for the heads, but torqued the main caps up a lot tighter due to having the main bearing bores measured at the higher torque. The first ting that happened, was that the rear main seal kept "popping" out. So I backed off the torque on all nuts to a point that the rear main seal stayed put.
I put the motor together, and it ran well....for 400 kms. I then needed to strip the motor back to bare block due to a top hat liner install error. To the shops credit, they admitted it was the first top hat liner install they had done, researched the problem, learnt from the mistake, and fixed everything at absolutely no cost to me other than time. Turner engineering in the UK (top hat liner supplier) were also very helpful during this time. Anyway, the point to all this info, is that I pulled the rear main caps, and there was significant uneven wear on the bearings after only 400kms, and there was copious amounts of oil between the bearings and block. Needless to say I followed the 65lbft advice on the second assembly, and so far so good at 3000km.
The alternative would have been to line bore the main bearing journals at a specified torque, but the original bearings came out looking good, so I stuck with the status quo. I came very close to putting the original main cap bolts in, because I have read that even at the same torque as bolts, studs and nuts provide a greater clamping force.

Hope this helps in some way with decision making.

Cheers
Andre

[MacMan]

Out of interest, what was the installation error with the liners? I'd been referred to these guys who shall remain nameless on the basis that they'd always done the right thing by the "referee" in the past and they appeared to know the drill with the fitment of flanged liners. However, given their attitude so far, I'm left thinking I'm best off taking absolutely nothing for granted.

[LRCounty]

When the chilled liners are dropped into the heated block, they quickly warm up, and the thicker material at the top expands longitudinally. The liners need to be either clamped down during cooling, so that they remain on the machined step in the block, or they need to be pressed home afterward......in this case the interference fit can't be so tight that pressing the liner home is not possible. To ensure the liners are all the way home on the step, the shop should machine the step to be slightly LESS deep, than the height of the flange. Then after cooling they can measure how much of the flange is sticking out and do the maths. Decking the block is normal part of the process, and this is when the flange is machine level to the block.

My liners had an 8 thou gap under them after cooling (obviously not known at the time), and the head gaskets pushed them home at operating temperature, transferring the gap to the top. I blew all eight cylinders within seconds of each other.

Definitely a learning experience. I believe the shop has done a number of THL installs since then, with no repeat of the problem.

Cheers
Andre

[MacMan]

Ah! I can imagine the horror!

These guys have done their fair share of liner installations so if they can't get that much right then it's time for us all to buy comfortable shoes and take a hike.

I asked them before they did the job whether or not they heat the block and was told that it's warm from washing but that's about the extent of the heat. Liners are pressed home at that temperature.

[Davo]

I love the way that this place pops up high on the Google rankings if searching for info.

I've done some thinking about my current rebuild and I think I'll go for studs rather than a new set of bolts, and ARP seem to be the only company offering a kit. I have tried VPW - price good at $166, but 10 week wait (SERIOUSLY!). Called TRS, have in hand, $328 for the kit (HUH???). A set of bolts can be had for under $80. Now wondering if it's worth sniffing out a purchase on eBay ex USA for a little over AUD $200 landed.

Pressure to make a decision is off because the block has gone back to the machinists to have them redo some of their work to acceptable standards, but 10 weeks is a stretch.

Are there any other suppliers who do kits of studs? While I'm at it should I consider studs for the main caps as well?

I got my head studs from Summit, and mains from RPI from their eBay store. Both took around two weeks or so to get way up here.

I haven't used them yet, and just got them because, you know, "while I'm at it" . . .

[MacMan]

Sorted! Called Fabre and they have the kit on the shelf and did it at a good price. About $235 delivered. TRS wanted well over $300 before delivery. Thanks for the leads guys.

[Davo]

And I checked the torque recommendations today. For the head studs, ARP reckon 80lbs, and for the mains, 110.

There's no way I'd go to 110 on the mains!

Des Hammill reckons 70-90lbs, but then says to check the manufacturer's instructions. Of course, he and ARP also say that align-honing is necessary, but really, that's not going to happen for a lot of people.

[MacMan]

And in the latest bizarre twist (boom boom) and reiteration of the philosophy which proffers that one sleeps better if one stops reading once one's money has been spent, I found this:

New ARP stud kit for Rover V8 3.9, 4.0 and 4.6 - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=74349)

and this:

WARNING: ARP stud kit 124-4003 on Rover V8!!! - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=72718)

The question I ask myself is whether my 19 year old lump is considered modern or not.

[PhilipA]

I think you are over thinking this.

If you look at the start of this thread I noted that the studs do not bottom but have about 5MM clearance to the bottom of the hole. There is plenty of thread engaged, and I do not recall clearly but I think the bolts are not much longer. They wouldn't want to bottom .

This is on a 3.9, so I think all the blocks are the same. Mine has now gone about 20KK with no problems.
If anything I would think the studs are designed for a Buick block but they seem to work OK in a Rover.
Regards Philip A

[MacMan]

Just have to decide to what torque setting I'm prepared to go. Consequences of pulled threads are not much fun.

[clubagreenie]

I have fitted ARP studs to hundreds of engines, never had a failure or thread pull and I have a thread somewhere here where I compared the values of the TTY bolts vs studs and their final lengths (post stretch). lets just say for me, TTY bolts scare baby jesus. I used the original early set of studs in my 4.6 without issue, the thread IS long enough to bottom out, Loctite SHOULD NEVER be used, only the ARP lube, 80 lbs is fine AS LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THE PROCEDURE. If you shortcut it they will fail prematurely. I have tested this with a bare block, tin & comp gaskets and 8 sets of TTY bols and 4 sets of studs.

[Davo]

I just found that these guys list ARP torque numbers in their catalogue:

http://www.realsteel.co.uk/section1.pdf

[101RRS]

And in the latest bizarre twist (boom boom) and reiteration of the philosophy which proffers that one sleeps better if one stops reading once one's money has been spent, I found this:

New ARP stud kit for Rover V8 3.9, 4.0 and 4.6 - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=74349)



And in the last post on the linked thread indictes that even ARP may believe that stud Part no 124-4003 is not suitable for Rover V8s. :confused:

Having about to start the rebuild process of my engine that has a striped head bolt hole (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/150093-my-4-6-v8-rebuild-thread.html) I am concerned about what torque to do the head nuts up to when time comes to put the heads on.

Likewise with the mains and big ends - stud torque seems excessive.

Garry

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Garry,
when I bought mine they wrote the figure on the box--

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I was close!
how about a sticky?;)

oh,, and this figure is from TRS,,,,,

[MacMan]

I did mine up in a 25>50>75 ft/lb sequence. No problems.

[tailslide]

Thanks guys for this new info. I have a kit, still unused, that only has the 80ft lb. Am going outside to hand write the 65 on the box before I forget. Will be watching this debate to see what transpires from ARP.

I also have a set of standard bolts that arrived with my rebuild kit...

Cheers
Ron

[clubagreenie]

In both the Rover and Toyota V8's the stud torque is higher, although the Toyota TTY bolts are done up to tension and then 90deg method. Results for Toyota bolts are just as varied as the Rover testing I later did. Neither the Rover (alloy only) or Toyota (alloy & iron) bolcks had failure of the thread.

Pull out tensions tested on a damaged (main bearing carrier cracks) Toyota V8 showed pull out tensions with a ARP stud, using head and gasket, assembled as per factory isstructions, then continued to tension in sequence until failures occured. First failure was at 104ft/lbs & occured in one of the outer holes in a corner where you'd typically find less material. Failures of inner holes were before 110lbs, all had failed by 115lbs.

We later went to India to source some sets of studs (for unbelievable prices considering material quality, quantities and lead times). Same grad steels, sourced from same mills (coils landed from USA on docks in India while there) all labelled/batch numbered that was back checked. We needed a row of studs in each head to be modified to allow for the extra swing of the enlarged lobe of the cam (+9.8mm lift). We had 10 sample sets (studs/washers/nuts) made and sent 3 home, took rest to ARP for testing. Tested within specs for genuine ARP stuff so given 20 sets from India was cost of one from USA.

[101RRS]

I ordered my head and main bearing cap studs from Fabre today - $220 and $107. However when I enquired about big end studs the guy said that the ARP listing for the old Buick 215 for these was a nut and bolt arrangement and not the current Rover arrangement of a threaded bolt hole in the conrod with a bolt.

So - some advice on this.

Use the old used big end bolts (not keen on this).

Buy new genuine big end bolts, or

As I wanted - buy aftermarket studs etc - but where from?? What make etc.

Cheers

Garry

[MacMan]

I'm not sure why you're so against reusing the big end hardware. They should be fine to go back in as is.

[101RRS]

I'm not sure why you're so against reusing the big end hardware. They should be fine to go back in as is.

In my previous engine rebuilds (Subaru 1800, LR 2.25 and Honda 550F) I have reused bolts but the consensus seems not to reuse them. With the big end the heavy forces are downward when the engine fires so not against the big end bolts so I can understand old bolts being suitable but the prevailing opinion is not to reuse (particularly if they are cheap).

I am open to suggestions and will make a decision based on that - there is no rush as I need to wait for stock of the studs to come in, in a few weeks.

So I take it that you think they are OK.

Thanks

Garry

[clubagreenie]

If you ID the threads and sizes then send an enquiry to ARP they will advise if they have what you need in stock and will probably be able to make up a kit for you. From that they usually add it as a stock listing with a new number as it how they often get the info for some of the less mainstream stuff.

Big ends are fine with a bolt or the original hardware, as said it's an opposing force.

[MacMan]

Yes, I believe reuse is fine. I reused mine, along with the main bolts.

Bear in mind that if you are replacing them, have them in hand before you send everything off for balancing because they will play a part in the equation.

[clubagreenie]

Actually on the ARP website is a form you can download and print to ID the studs you want and send back. Has all the info they need. Keeps it simple.

[101RRS]

Thanks for those comments - will run with the used big end bolts.

[PhilipA]

My 3.9 has now done about 20Kk now with no problems and virtually no water usage.
I noted the short coarse threads in my original post , but doesn't seem to have caused a problem at 80Ft lbs.

Regards Philip A

[Hoges]

ARP have now developed a specific head stud kit for the 3.9/4.0/4.6 10 bolt Rover heads.

Relevant information received from ARP is as follows:

"We have a head stud kit now for the 10 bolt heads, 3.9L~4.6L Rover V8. The part number is 157-4301, it is available.

Main stud kit 4.0L~4.6L 157-5401
Or
Main bolt kit 4.0L~4.6L 157-5001"

From a search of rangerovers.net I had discovered that ARP had written to one of the forumites there last year indicating they would get hold a 4.6L Rover engine block and develop a kit for it. This they did and as the result of an email I sent them a couple of days ago the above response was received.

Cheers

Hoges

[MacMan]

I gather that kit will have longer threads inserted into the block. So long as there is no chance that they touch down at the bottom of the block holes, extra engagement can only be a good thing.

Just a bugger that it didn't happen 4 months ago, but Murphy looms large in my life at the moment :D

[101RRS]

I just contacted Fabre and got them to change my order to the above part numbers but the ARP catalogue still does not list them.

[Davo]

Poop. I got the older kit just a few months ago.

[Hoges]

I just contacted Fabre and got them to change my order to the above part numbers but the ARP catalogue still does not list them.

Hi Gary
did they give you a price/time for delivery? I need a set but haven't placed an order yet... the chap I spoke to reckoned at least 2 weeks but no pricing ...

I see TRS Adelaide have/had a kit listed on special...presumably the one for the 3.5L at $180...
cheers

[Hoges]

I gather that kit will have longer threads inserted into the block. So long as there is no chance that they touch down at the bottom of the block holes, extra engagement can only be a good thing.

Just a bugger that it didn't happen 4 months ago, but Murphy looms large in my life at the moment :D

Sorry, I don't have any details of the changes, other than ARP did indeed get hold of a 4.6 block and developed a kit to fit properly....
cheers

[101RRS]

Hi Gary
did they give you a price/time for delivery? I need a set but haven't placed an order yet... the chap I spoke to reckoned at least 2 weeks but no pricing ...



Sorry no they had the Buick 215 head studs in stock and said the Buick main studs were out of stock but normally only takes 2 weeks to get in - they were going to call me.

I assume they do not have these new studs in stock so will need to get them from ARP so maybe a few weeks.

Garry