Question on welding cast iron.

[wagoo]

The 6x6 thread on General Chat has inspired me to think about resurrecting an old 6wheel drive Landy I built up over 30 years ago. This time I want to replace the Rover rear diff with a Salisbury, and to that end I need to make a gear driven pinion mounted drop box.My wife, who carries my testicles around in her handbag won't let me spend much money so I thought about sectioning and narrowing down an old Nissan Patrol cast iron transfercase and just using the high range gears for a 1:1 box.
My question is, how successful would welding cast iron for this application be ?, bearing in mind that helical gear end thrust will try to separate the welded joint.
Wagoo.

[one_iota]

You must do it! :)

Your vitals have already been removed and kept in a safe place so there can't be too much more pain. ;)

All I can offer is moral support

[isuzurover]

The 6x6 thread on General Chat has inspired me to think about resurrecting an old 6wheel drive Landy I built up over 30 years ago. This time I want to replace the Rover rear diff with a Salisbury, and to that end I need to make a gear driven pinion mounted drop box.My wife, who carries my testicles around in her handbag won't let me spend much money so I thought about sectioning and narrowing down an old Nissan Patrol cast iron transfercase and just using the high range gears for a 1:1 box.
My question is, how successful would welding cast iron for this application be ?, bearing in mind that helical gear end thrust will try to separate the welded joint.
Wagoo.

If I read this correctly you want to weld a nissan t-case housing to the nose of a sals?

No way you can sort out a bolted joint between the two instead?

Bush65 (John) would be the best person to answer this stuff. However he is currently incommunicado (like you, now living on a remote bush block - only without internet).

I believe dullbird has his mobile number, so if you ask her nicely, I am sure John would be happy to advise.

[wagoo]

If I read this correctly you want to weld a nissan t-case housing to the nose of a sals?

No way you can sort out a bolted joint between the two instead?

Bush65 (John) would be the best person to answer this stuff. However he is currently incommunicado (like you, now living on a remote bush block - only without internet).

I believe dullbird has his mobile number, so if you ask her nicely, I am sure John would be happy to advise.

Not quite Ben. I already machined, welded a bolt flange to, and refaced a Salisbury pinion nose about 20 years ago. I also fabricated a bolt on drop box casing to use Ford Bronco t/case sprockets and chains, but some tea leaf knocked that bit off along with several tons of vehicles and good bits a couple of years back. I still have the modified Salisbury diff though and want to bolt a sectioned,narrowed Nissan t/case to it. My old rearmost drop box, made from series t/case gears to bolt to the Rover diff, which was also knocked off is too short between shaft centres to clear the hypoid offset of the Sals, hence the thought of using the Nissan case which has larger gears.
One Iota. My vitals wouldn't be safe at all if my wife finds out what I have in mind.:(
Wagoo.

[one_iota]

snip.....
One Iota. My vitals wouldn't be safe at all if my wife finds out what I have in mind.:(
Wagoo.

We'll take it for granted that she can read your mind.

However if they are kept in her handbag it will take her a while to find them so you have a bit of time.

[wagoo]

We'll take it for granted that she can read your mind.

However if they are kept in her handbag it will take her a while to find them so you have a bit of time.

You've seen inside my wifes handbag then? Or are all woman the same? I reckon I could survive for a month with the contents.:)
Wagoo.

[one_iota]

You've seen inside my wifes handbag then? Or are all woman the same? I reckon I could survive for a month with the contents.:)
Wagoo.


Sorry for the non technical hijack :)

All women can read their men's minds and their handbags are equally chaotic and full.

[steveG]

You've seen inside my wifes handbag then? Or are all woman the same? I reckon I could survive for a month with the contents.:)
Wagoo.

I think they're all the same...
Just as well there's enough in them to survive for a month - 'cos if you fell in it would take that long to find your way out :D

Steve

[Hall]

No problems welding cast iron. Has to be clean though. As in not soaked in oil. Has to be warmed up before welding to avoid heat shock and cracking. Need to buy cast iron welding rods, not sure you can get them in small quantity`s though. I`m guessing you won`t be needing a lot. You can also braze cast iron with good results.
Cheers Hall

[rick130]

Sorry for the non technical hijack :)

All women can read their men's minds and their handbags are equally chaotic and full.

And there endeth the lesson :D

All true men live in in equal parts terror and amazement of their lady folk. :ohyes:

[rick130]

Bill, which Nissan t/case was iron ?

Is it as far back as the old G60 or newer such as the MQ ?
SWMBO had an MQ shorty when we first met but I can't recall what the t/case was like, just that the g/box was a sweet shifter behind the 2.8 six and it rode like a tip dray, even with only half a leaf pack front and rear. :(



The only experience I've had with successful cast iron welding was when dear old Dad welded a Terry refrigeration compressor flywheel up when the compressor hydrauliced on liquid refrigerant.

Usually they smashed valves and bent rods, in this scenario it just smashed the nose clean off the flywheel.
Lots of pre and post heat in our big oven we had in the workshop and it lasted for about another six years until I changed it for a new one.

It was an all nighter at the time, it had close to $25,000 of Italian salami in the room to save. (it was on their curing room)
IIRC it had something like a 10-12HP electric motor driving it, probably nothing like the thrust loads your t/case conversion would experience.

[steveG]

No problems welding cast iron. Has to be clean though. As in not soaked in oil. Has to be warmed up before welding to avoid heat shock and cracking. Need to buy cast iron welding rods, not sure you can get them in small quantity`s though. I`m guessing you won`t be needing a lot. You can also braze cast iron with good results.
Cheers Hall

Was down at my local engineering supplies place today and saw small blister packs of cast iron rods - about 10 of them. Not cheap though at about $50 for the pack. Think the brand was Magoweld or something similar.

Steve

[one_iota]

Handbook-Welding Cast Iron (http://www.esabna.com/euweb/oxy_handbook/589oxy15_1.htm)

[wagoo]

Thanks for both the technical and amusing replies Gentlemen.:) It's an old G60 transfercase I want to do. The case has been lying around empty in the weather for over 20 years, so it is totally oil free. If the bearing bore diameters haven't rusted oversize I'll try to use that. Alternatively I could cut the front and rear faces off, mill them flat and bolt them to a perimeter frame that I could weld up.
Wagoo.

[isuzutoo-eh]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1277.jpg

:wub:

Wanna swap for my County?

[ozscott]

I welded up a cast iron section on a tractor chassis (very old) and used some special cast iron rods and an Esseti 150amp inverter stick. I didnt have the option of heating it up. One side held, and the other side didnt. Next time I will just have to heat it up slowly with a small oxy.

There is a great (and old) book on welding all sorts of metals with a great chapter on cast. I will see if I can find it.

Cheers

[bee utey]

An old friend of mine made a 1:1 vee drive out of two VW Kombi drop boxes. He had to weld it twice as the first time he didn't allow enough for the shrinkage after welding. Using pre-heating and cast rods it worked well and took a P76 V8's punishment in an off -road buggy.

Other people who I have seen repair cast iron have used ordinary brazing. It requires a lot of oxy/acetylene though.

[85 county]

Firstly I don’t think it would be cast iron. cast steel yes, cast iron is for the wood burning stove and not gear bags, one hit and it would go bang.

Any way if it is cast iron and you wish to trust it afterwards i strongly advise you to braze it. braze each side first ( after prep Veeing out) the a bit of a grind to get them matched then braze them together.
Cast steel, you can get cast steel gas rods but nothing beats AC arc ( forget DC), now because it is a casting prep is all important. there could be all sorts of crap on//in there, so a good look when Veeing out.

pre heat is just to take the chill out, your spit should boil but no color.

[rick130]

Here's some more shots of Bill's old 6x6

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3034/6x6diffdropbox.jpg

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1823/6x6reversediff.jpg

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3492/6x6suspension.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/15/6x6plusjockeywheel.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1742/6x6jockeywheelcloseup.jpg

http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/6430/6x6mound6x6.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1871/6x6upnover.jpg

[rick130]

Firstly I don’t think it would be cast iron. cast steel yes, cast iron is for the wood burning stove and not gear bags, one hit and it would go bang.

[snip]


Isn't there a colour difference in the sparks given off when grinding ?
IIRC that's the easy way to tell the difference.

[isuzurover]

Firstly I don’t think it would be cast iron. cast steel yes, cast iron is for the wood burning stove and not gear bags, one hit and it would go bang.

Never heard of nodular cast iron?


Ductile iron, also known as ductile cast iron, nodular cast iron, spheroidal graphite iron, spherulitic graphite cast iron[1] and SG iron, is a type of cast iron invented in 1943 by Keith Millis.[2] While most varieties of cast iron are brittle, ductile iron is much more flexible and elastic, due to its nodular graphite inclusions.

Ductile iron is specifically useful in many automotive components, where strength needs surpass that of aluminum but do not necessarily require steel. Other major industrial applications include off-highway diesel trucks, class 8 trucks, agricultural tractors, and oil well pumps.

[wagoo]

Thankyou for the pics Mark and Rick. They look clearer than when they first appeared in the magazine. Coincidently a bloke on pirate from the US asked me the other day if I had pics of the old girl, but the ones I had plus the vehicle and most everything else went up in the bush fires a couple of years back. At least now I can give him a link to this thread.
Wagoo.

[PAT303]

Wagoo I welded alot of cast iron and found cast iron rods put too much porosity into the weld.I used to get the part hot over a furnace then weld it with J200 stainless steel rods and again put it on heat and let what I was welding cool slowly overnight keeping it on the heat all the way.Cast will crack within minutes if it's not hot or let to cool too quickly.Personally I would do it as a last resort. Pat

[isuzurover]

Thankyou for the pics Mark and Rick. They look clearer than when they first appeared in the magazine. Coincidently a bloke on pirate from the US asked me the other day if I had pics of the old girl, but the ones I had plus the vehicle and most everything else went up in the bush fires a couple of years back. At least now I can give him a link to this thread.
Wagoo.

Or better still, right click on each picture, then click "save image as" or "save target as", then save them on your computer. Then create a photobucket account and upload them there for safekeeping (and forums).

[85 county]

Never heard of nodular cast iron?

Sure, great stuff if you making sewer pipes or galv water/ air fittings. in which case just glue them together with a GP

[85 county]

OPS, and ductile shows up as silver not dark gray

[John W]

Years ago, and then did not do a lot, but used either the cast iron rods or stainless steel. Only did very short runs with a lot of peening to take the stress out of the weld. Helps to have someone with the hammer at the ready as soon as you put down the arc. You may be lucky but I would expect it to fail.

[slug_burner]

There is a bloke over on 4wd action forum that is mating a Navara cab onto an F250 chassis. He is a welder or fabricator of some sort, he gusseted his diff housing. He used a big wok/bbq burner to heat up the diff before welding

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1264.jpg


Pre-heated with this ring burner. It got it to over 250 degrees and then I used the heating tip on the oxy to get it dull red hot before welding the cast iron sections. Seems to have worked well. No cracks or fractures at all so I'm happy.



Any uneven rapid heating and cooling will cause distortion.
Not such a problem for smaller section materials because the welding will heat it up right through. It may distort but usually won't affect the integrity of the weld. But welding thick materials and especially cast iron the welding won't heat right through so when it cools and contracts the weld may simply pull away from the parent metal. Especially with cast iron because it is so ridgid it doesn't like to move or distort. By thoroughly pre-heating it, the temperature changes that occur when it is welded is greatly reduced and the cast iron will tolerate welding. There is many variations of cast iron too. Some are virtually impossible to weld, some not so bad. Fortunately these diff housings are pretty good when pre-heated like I did.

[RobHay]

That damned bug ....got me AGAIN! :mad:........:D:p

[THE 109]

Bill

Why not try a different approach and build it like a grader,one diff and two tandems.

Cheers Eric

[wagoo]

Bill

Why not try a different approach and build it like a grader,one diff and two tandems.

Cheers Eric

Eric, I was originally going to do it that way 30 odd years ago. But graders have chain drive bogies, and apparently there is a problem with maintaining chain tension on higher speed chain drives that unlike motor cycles, are powered in forward and reverse.Truck manufacturers such as Scammell, Daf and Engasa that produced trucks with similar driven walking beams chose gears despite the maximum speeds of these being quite low, in the 20-30mph region. The ready availability of cheap or free suitable gears to fill two walking beams with wheels 1 metre apart, plus all the idler shafts and bearings required also discouraged me. No differentiation between the for and aft rear wheels and fixed wheel spacing would also have presented steering difficulties on a vehicle with a 74''+39'' wheelbase.I built a degree of passive steering geometry into the suspension linkage of that vehicle.
The advantages of gear driven walking beams though would be much greater potential articulation, and adaptability to any of the LandRover chassis frames. For my vehicle I had to use a 88''wb chassis with a 12'' rear extension.The next vehicle if I go ahead and the chassis hasn't suffered to much from the bushfires with be a series one 107'' pickup chassis with 12'' chopped off the back, which is the other chassis in the LandRover range that is suitable for short wheelbase 6x6 conversion.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Aren't there plenty of chain-driven quads that have reverse???

The "chain link" was reportedly reliable (though not high speed)
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/cameron%20carlson%20chainlink.jpg


Kevlar toothed drive belt then???

The other advantage is you only need one rear locker instead of two!

[Bigbjorn]

What about using two quick change diffs like Halibrands, with the drive through to the rear diff taken off the bottom quick change gear driveshaft in the forward diff?

What are you going to use for a third diff/power divider so the diffs can turn at different speeds as required by cornering and circumstances?

[rangieman]

Bill have you done away with the holden donk or will do away with it ?
Oh by the way George from Garfield (VIC) who used to own the black inter 4x4 ute witha perkins also had the studibaker gearbox said to say hi

[rick130]

That damned bug ....got me AGAIN! :mad:........:D:p

Hope you didn't break the screen when you hit it Rob :D

[wagoo]

What about using two quick change diffs like Halibrands, with the drive through to the rear diff taken off the bottom quick change gear driveshaft in the forward diff?

What are you going to use for a third diff/power divider so the diffs can turn at different speeds as required by cornering and circumstances?

The original drive arrangement had 2 drop boxes, one on each rear diff, similar to the Aus Military 6x6 Internationals. The drop box pictured is the rearmost one. The formost rear diff drop box had a dog clutch on the upper input shaft to disengage drive to the pinion on that difffor oad travel. Both diff/axle assemblies were turned back to front in order to give relatively long and level propshafts for the short wheelbase and axle spacing. This arrangement gave a 14'' longer primary propshaft than a forward facing diff woul have for maximum possible bogie articulation, even more than a worm drive to worm drive or quick change to quick change setup would have.
My intention is to stay with this type of drive arrangement but with a Salisbury diff and larger drop box for the rearmost diff.
Wagoo.

[wagoo]

Bill have you done away with the holden donk or will do away with it ?
Oh by the way George from Garfield (VIC) who used to own the black inter 4x4 ute witha perkins also had the studibaker gearbox said to say hi

Thanks Rangieman. Is George still living in Garfield? Passed through there a couple of months ago but couldn't recognise where the house is. Say Hi back from me too.
wagoo.

[rangieman]

Thanks Rangieman. Is George still living in Garfield? Passed through there a couple of months ago but couldn't recognise where the house is. Say Hi back from me too.
wagoo.
No mate he lives in Marybough Victoria;) ,That inter is still in Garfield has,nt been on the road for a lot of years now :eek:

[Bigbjorn]

The original drive arrangement had 2 drop boxes, one on each rear diff, similar to the Aus Military 6x6 Internationals. The drop box pictured is the rearmost one. The formost rear diff drop box had a dog clutch on the upper input shaft to disengage drive to the pinion on that difffor oad travel. Both diff/axle assemblies were turned back to front in order to give relatively long and level propshafts for the short wheelbase and axle spacing. This arrangement gave a 14'' longer primary propshaft than a forward facing diff woul have for maximum possible bogie articulation, even more than a worm drive to worm drive or quick change to quick change setup would have.
My intention is to stay with this type of drive arrangement but with a Salisbury diff and larger drop box for the rearmost diff.
Wagoo.

Have a look at Ultimatecarpage.com - Powered by knowledge, driven by passion (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com) and pull up the thread titled Pat Clancy Indy Special (6 wheeler). there are photos on the thread. This was built by Frank Kurtis in 1946 using two Halibrands with a through shaft. The added grip did not compensate sufficiently for the added weight.

Appears to me your driveline problems and consquent complexity are caused by the short wheelbase.

[wagoo]

Have a look at Ultimatecarpage.com - Powered by knowledge, driven by passion (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com) and pull up the thread titled Pat Clancy Indy Special (6 wheeler). there are photos on the thread. This was built by Frank Kurtis in 1946 using two Halibrands with a through shaft. The added grip did not compensate sufficiently for the added weight.

Appears to me your driveline problems and consquent complexity are caused by the short wheelbase.

Yes that is true, but it was the high degree of bogie articulation and virtually unlimited ramp over angle due to the short wheelbase and worm driven belly wheels that gave the truck the exceptional crosscountry ability that other driveline solutions wouldn't have afforded.
wagoo.

[Bigbjorn]

Yes that is true, but it was the high degree of bogie articulation and virtually unlimited ramp over angle due to the short wheelbase and worm driven belly wheels that gave the truck the exceptional crosscountry ability that other driveline solutions wouldn't have afforded.
wagoo.

Have you thought of hydrostatic drive? A radial piston motor driving each diff with a Detroit locker in each. No gearbox, just a hydraulic pump and necessary controls.

[wagoo]

Have you thought of hydrostatic drive? A radial piston motor driving each diff with a Detroit locker in each. No gearbox, just a hydraulic pump and necessary controls.

No I haven't.This will be a shoe string exercise.Financial and domestic circumstances these days dictate that what I can't do with my welder, drill press and angle grinder, plus a small amount of lathe work just doesn't get done.And as with my last 6x6 I'd like the vehicle to at least be capable of travelling on public roads at 50-60mph.
I've given up on using a modified Nissan transfercase due to the distance between the input and output shafts being insufficient to clear the bulk of the Salisbury diff.I still have the Morse chain and gear/sprockets from the Ford Bronco transfercase that I was originally going to use, and I have worked out away of fabricating a casing for them that doesn't require the expense of having the shaft/ bearing holes jig bored. Just a simple stress releiving and surface grinding after finish welding should do the trick.
Wagoo.