Kaiser Locker - better than Detroit?

[isuzurover]

I notice Ashcroft is selling not 1 but 2 new lockers. The Kaiser locker is an auto locker made in Brazil. Apparently it solves all the issues which the Detroit has.


Hi,

we have recently taken delivery of these :

Ashcroft Transmissions - Kaiser Locker (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=277)

much smoother than the detroit, no clunking and banging,

we also had big problems with the clutches failing in the detroits, resulting in them not unlocking when they should,

Dave



...Oh yes, it was my father and I that actually got Tractech to make the detroit for the rover diff about 12 years ago, we sent them drawings of the rover diff etc, we also worked with the tech dept to get them to alter clutch teeth angles to improve the product but they never made the charges,

we have stoped selling them now but when we did we had 2 main complaints,

1) loud cracking / banking as the wound up side clutch let go, some customers would describe this as a shotgun going off,

2) teeth shearing off the inner drive clutches resulting in it not unlocking,

I know the product and it's faults very well,

seemed better in a 110 I guess due to the bigger internals and longer wheelbase but not good for the 90,

the Kaiser is not perfect, every now and then it will sound like you just went over a loose manhole cover but nowhere near as severe as the detroit,

both will push on if you have throttle on,

[wagoo]

I doubt the Ashcrofts would knowingly sell rubbish, so I take it the Kaiser isn't manufactured by AVM the freewheel hub people.
Wagoo.

[85 county]

had a look at the site, they look interesting. anyone have any experience

[rick130]

Looks like a variation of the Weismann Locker.

In the late sixties and right through the eighties it was the locker of choice for high powered road race cars (F1, Champ/Indy Car, Sports Cars).

It would lock 100% under power but unlock on the overrun, which is pretty important to a road racer as it dramatically reduces corner entry understeer compared to a spool or No-Spin/Detroit Locker or even a heavily pre-loaded plate diff and it doesn't have the unpredictable ratcheting characteristics of the Detroit.

It also didn't tolerate any of the type of friction modifiers that are commonly used in clutch plate type LSD's.

Original 1964 patent application here (you'll need a TIFF viewer as a plugin to see the pictures, one is here AlternaTIFF - Free TIFF Plug-in (http://www.alternatiff.com/) )

Patent Images (http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw'docid=03283611&SectionNum=2&IDKey=0D69804EB205&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526p=1%2526u=% 25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526d=PALL%2526S1 =03283611%2526OS=PN/03283611%2526RS=PN/03283611)

[edit] forgot to add that the original Weismann Locker is back in production.
I think it was last made for race cars back in the late eighties or so (IIRC McLaren and Ferrari used it) http://www.weismann.net/Products/wtp.htm

[Red90]

There is a huge thread on D-90.com on the Kaiser which explains how it works. Looks nice, but the price point is not great.

Ashcroft are now also selling their own ATB diff, Ashcroft Transmissions - Ashcroft ATB (http://www.ashcrofttransmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=259)

[rick130]

I notice that this diff centre isn't listed on Ashcrofts website anymore, so I'm fishing for info :D (as I can't email from the lappy ATM)

Ian or Dave ?

Any input ?

[uninformed]

I notice that this diff centre isn't listed on Ashcrofts website anymore, so I'm fishing for info :D (as I can't email from the lappy ATM)

Ian or Dave ?

Any input ?

what are you up to?

[rick130]

Just had this bloody quick reply from Dave Ashcroft.

Hi Rick, When we first tested the Kaiser diff on our 90 I was impressed, our demo 90 is an auto puma, it drove well and just gave a very small clonk occasionally but this was far better than the Detroit locker so we bought some,

Having sold some and got feedback from customers I have since leant that they behave quite differently on a manual disco or 90 and can make a repeated clonk quite badly when you are off the throttle and on full lock, ie turning into a parking space,

This combined with the fact that they were quite expensive especially when compared to our air locker which was launched around the same time meant that they have not sold very well so when our stock ran out I decided not to reorder,

They may be better on a 110 due to the increased wheelbase but the Detroit was not a problem on the 110 and the Salisbury Detroit's are far cheaper, Pls feel free to post this reply on the forum,

[uninformed]

You need to tell them to make a Sals locker....I just posted in a thread on pirate where people are complaing about the new ARB D60....I told them to PM ashtrans and ask for a D60 locker to be made :D

Dave may hate me now

[bushrover]

I had kaisers front and rear in the 110. Took the front out and fitted an Ashcroft. The rear is similar to a detroit in behaviour, although I haven't had a detroit for years and not in a Rover.

A bit of history - I have never failed a uni, never failed a centre diff, never stripped hy tuff axles (the set in there now are welded), never had to continually tighten prop shaft bolts or replace drive flanges because they have flogged out, never had to tighten output flange nuts on the tranny, until I fitted a front and rear kaiser. DON'T fit one in a manual vehicle, unless you are prepared to rebuild drive trains more often than usual.

If Dave will build an air locker for the salisbury, I will buy one, if not I will fit an auto and still probably fit an air locker - I don't like slipping sideways because of a locked rear end when you don't want it to be locked. The kaisers are much smoother with an auto, the convertor does not act as a solid stop when the kaiser winds up and then lets go when cornering, which only happens when you forget to modify your driving behaviour. Having said that, they are a strong diff and work extremely well. Ideal with a manual locker in the front. I am hoping the auto will improve on road manners and also compensate for me being lazy and hating changing gears.

Rick

P.S. If you want a front kaiser, I have one. If I get excited I may pull it apart and post a couple of photo's of the internals, but it won't be this weekend.

[bushrover]

Dave may hate me now Don't worry, plenty of us will love you if you can make it happen.

[rick130]

I had kaisers front and rear in the 110. Took the front out and fitted an Ashcroft. The rear is similar to a detroit in behaviour, although I haven't had a detroit for years and not in a Rover.

A bit of history - I have never failed a uni, never failed a centre diff, never stripped hy tuff axles (the set in there now are welded), never had to continually tighten prop shaft bolts or replace drive flanges because they have flogged out, never had to tighten output flange nuts on the tranny, until I fitted a front and rear kaiser. DON'T fit one in a manual vehicle, unless you are prepared to rebuild drive trains more often than usual.

If Dave will build an air locker for the salisbury, I will buy one, if not I will fit an auto and still probably fit an air locker - I don't like slipping sideways because of a locked rear end when you don't want it to be locked. The kaisers are much smoother with an auto, the convertor does not act as a solid stop when the kaiser winds up and then lets go when cornering, which only happens when you forget to modify your driving behaviour. Having said that, they are a strong diff and work extremely well. Ideal with a manual locker in the front. I am hoping the auto will improve on road manners and also compensate for me being lazy and hating changing gears.

Rick

P.S. If you want a front kaiser, I have one. If I get excited I may pull it apart and post a couple of photo's of the internals, but it won't be this weekend.

Excellent, just the feedback I was looking for.

What attracted me to the Kaiser is the unlock on over-run which mitigates a lot of the corner entry understeer you get with a Detroit/No-Spin (and most don't seem to notice on a 110 or 130) oh, and the bloody awful backlash.

Oh, I'm also lazy and I'm cheap :D and I'd like it to be there for on road and anytime use, not just when I remember to hit the switch.
The LSD in the Patrol is handy just tootling around the paddock when it's wet, etc but I have to remember to hit the pedal for the diff lock in the tractor :angel:

I also really dislike Detroits from my experience of them in race cars, the early ones I've used were noisy, clanking, cycling back and forth, unpredictable pieces of horse manure, but they stopped wheelspin when your torque outstripped the available traction.

and thanks for the offer but I don't think I really want one for the front, I'm not that brave :D
One of Daves ATB's will do me nicely, I'm not into extreme stuff anymore.

From what Dave Ashcroft has said and the results from the blokes that fitted them on the D90 Source forum, the rear Kaiser and even one in the front are virtually invisible with an auto in a 90, so it sounds like they'd be sweet in a AT'd 110.



I'm wondering if gear oil has a bearing on their behaviour too.
I know the Weismann was really temperamental unless you had the correct fluid, and I haven't been able to find out the fluid specs (yet)
I suspect anything with an LSD friction modifier may led to a slip/stick type situation with the rollers and outer cage.
But I could be talking out of my arse too.

[101RRS]

which mitigates a lot of the corner entry understeer you get with a Detroit/No-Spin (and most don't seem to notice on a 110 or 130) oh, and the bloody awful backlash.

I also really dislike Detroits from my experience of them in race cars, the early ones I've used were noisy, clanking, cycling back and forth, unpredictable pieces of horse manure, but they stopped wheelspin when your torque outstripped the available traction.



I think you need to update your experiences with a modern Detroit. I have had one in my 101 and certainly no understeer and no more backlash than the standard setup.

The only time I hear mine is in tight turns and never on the road.

I think you should have a look at the newer versions.

Garry

[uninformed]

Rick, just nut up and buy a Quaife :)

[rick130]

I think you need to update your experiences with a modern Detroit. I have had one in my 101 and certainly no understeer and no more backlash than the standard setup.

The only time I hear mine is in tight turns and never on the road.

I think you should have a look at the newer versions.

Garry

Gary, we've all had this discussion before and everyone that uses the newer soft locker say the same thing, that's it's basically transparent in normal day to day use, but they have to increase corner entry understeer, it's inherent in the design as the rear end is fully locked on corner entry.
You may not notice it, but it's happening and you naturally take corrective measures (ie. turn in earlier and with a little more lock)
In a 110 or 130 it should be very mild, but it's still there.

Put it this way, I feel the Patrol LSD on corner entry, but then SWMBO says I'm just a sensitive little flower :D

[rick130]

Rick, just nut up and buy a Quaife :)


Naa, Ashcroft's ATB is the same thing for 1/3 the $.

I'll just have to get fancy with the TC (read: left foot brake) if I lift a wheel :D

[uninformed]

Ok, so an Ashcroft it is....

Without offending, I would not conside the handling and feel characteristics of a 101 near enough to a coil defender to make a clear call.

[LowRanger]

Gary, we've all had this discussion before and everyone that uses the newer soft locker say the same thing, that's it's basically transparent in normal day to day use, but they have to increase corner entry understeer, it's inherent in the design as the rear end is fully locked on corner entry.
You may not notice it, but it's happening and you naturally take corrective measures (ie. turn in earlier and with a little more lock)
In a 110 or 130 it should be very mild, but it's still there.

Put it this way, I feel the Patrol LSD on corner entry, but then SWMBO says I'm just a sensitive little flower :D

I tend to agree with Gary on this,having owned unlocked Defenders and having a No-Spin in my current 110,I have found that most defenders even with mild lifts,tend to want to oversteer,fitting the detroit,on road at least tends to neutralise the steering.I know that I am able to travel at much higher speed:eek: in my defender fitted with the No-Spin through the many twisty sections up the mountains near here,than I was previously able to when the vehicle was unlocked.
But you could stop all the pussy footing around and just buy a JacMac and never have to worry about it again:D