6x6 drive and suspension

[Lotz-A-Landies]

While we're on the subject of 6X6.

If a 6X6 is fully coil sprung each axle is independant of the other, hence no load sharing.

On trucks, when air bag suspension is fitted to a bogie drive (R series Army Macks included) the suspension is considered load sharing.

Question. If you have coils on a 6X6 and fit air "load assistance" bags, like Polyair, and have them connected together via the air line as a pair on each side, are they now load sharing?

Like you could do on one of these:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[isuzurover]

Question. If you have coils on a 6X6 and fit air "load assistance" bags, like Polyair, and have them connected together via the air line as a pair on each side, are they now load sharing?



That would be partially load sharing (not sure if there is a technical category for that. If you swapped the coils for truck air springs and connected them in the same way then they would be fully load sharing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Ben. :)

What about using the bags from an air suspension Rover?

Or would they not have sufficient capacity or length for a Defender susension?

[isuzurover]

Thanks Ben. :)

What about using the bags from an air suspension Rover?

Or would they not have sufficient capacity or length for a Defender susension?

You could, but there are much better and cheaper options from places like truckspring Firestone Air Bags, Firestone Air Springs - TruckSpring.com (http://www.truckspring.com/suspension-parts/firestone-air-bags.aspx)

Search for a thread by Hally and you will get all the part numbers. Rovercare, RangierRover, Hally, Bush65 and I all bought our air springs from them (or airbag man) AFAIK, and most of us have install threads with pics.


EDIT - forgot to mention, 110/130 rear coils are larger diameter than RRC/disco. So you can fit a larger diameter air spring to a 110/130 (or 6x6 coiller) than a disco/rrc rear.

The airbags from an RRC are about the same price ex UK as a firestone truck air spring ex US. However I think the wider springd would be a better option.

[wagoo]

That would be partially load sharing (not sure if there is a technical category for that. If you swapped the coils for truck air springs and connected them in the same way then they would be fully load sharing.

As I mentioned on the 6x6 thread in the Forward Control forum. Instead of the upper ends of the coils being mounted off chassis mounted brackets they could be mounted on each end of a longditudal see saw beam centrally pivoted from a chassis mounted crossmember.Would have to allow space for the beam to swing up above the height of the chassis top though.Saw it on an independantly suspended (swing axle) tandem drive truck(RABA) in North Vietnam.For all the complexity though it would be simpler and more elegant to use the traditional pivoting leaf spring and 6 straight control rods instead of beam plus coils plus A frame.
That other 6x6 thread went stone dead for some reason. :wasntme:
Wagoo.

[easo]

VIN 6T9G14AAA10AAB001
Try stamping that into a chassis. No idea what it means but its what they gave me.

Didiman

How is your 6x6 drive set up?

Easo

[123rover50]

How is your 6x6 drive set up?

Easo

Its all standard Perentie 6x6 but I put freewheel hubs on the back.

[wagoo]

Its all standard Perentie 6x6 but I put freewheel hubs on the back.
Suspension design? Perentie too? What brand of FWH have you found that can stay intact on the back axle?
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

Its all standard Perentie 6x6

But don't you have Dana 44 axles instead of the Salisbury/Dana 60 that the perenties had???

[123rover50]

Suspension design? Perentie too? What brand of FWH have you found that can stay intact on the back axle?
Wagoo.

The load on the rear axle is not that great.
2 1/2 ton on front and 2 1/2 shared between the two rear axles.
FWH is a Shute Upton broached by Mal Storey to suit the shafts.
Not a problem so far. Bigger problem may be the front axle load by making it a forward controll.

[123rover50]

But don't you have Dana 44 axles instead of the Salisbury/Dana 60 that the perenties had???

I really dont know what the axles are. I posted photos a year or so back and the opinion was they were Borg Warner with a factory diff lock that uses the same vac unit as a cdl on a lt95.
I would like to know for sure, can you tell if I post more photos?

[isuzurover]

I would like to know for sure, can you tell if I post more photos?

The pics before were a bit far away I recall.

If you take some closeup pics of the rear pan and the centres then someone on pirate4x4 should be able to ID them. If you post them here I can post them on pirate for you.

These are the dana axle pans (not to scale):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1299.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1300.jpg

Most of these are rotated 90 deg.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1300.jpg

However - those lists are quite extensive - you should be able to tell us now!!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The load on the rear axle is not that great.
2 1/2 ton on front and 2 1/2 shared between the two rear axles.
FWH is a Shute Upton broached by Mal Storey to suit the shafts.
Not a problem so far. Bigger problem may be the front axle load by making it a forward controll.
Interesting weights.

The pommy coiler 6X6 are rated at 4.7tonne GVM with max weight over the rear axles 3.7 tonne. The odd issue is that the max load over the front axle is 1.57 tonne so the totals for all axles is actually 850Kg more that the GVM.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/611.jpg

[wagoo]

I really dont know what the axles are. I posted photos a year or so back and the opinion was they were Borg Warner with a factory diff lock that uses the same vac unit as a cdl on a lt95.
I would like to know for sure, can you tell if I post more photos?

We(4x4 motors Blackburn) had one of those BorgWarner rear ends with vac difflock .They looked good but the understanding was that they were specifically deigned for Perentie and weren't accepted, so lack of spares availability discouraged me from buying it. A company I worked for later on (Bayswater Differentials) fitted Detroit No Spins to both rear Salisbury diffs and to the centre differential of the transfercase to the 6x6 Perenties that went to Afghanistan in an effort to improve their relatively poor offroad mobility when compared to the 4x4 Perenties.
Wagoo.

[wagoo]

Interesting weights.

The pommy coiler 6X6 are rated at 4.7tonne GVM with max weight over the rear axles 3.7 tonne. The odd issue is that the max load over the front axle is 1.57 tonne so the totals for all axles is actually 850Kg more that the GVM.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/611.jpg:)
Could I be naughty and inject a bit of tech in this thread for a change?
Haven't seen any good rear end photos of the UK conversions, but do you know if they retain the Salisbury diff for the rearmost axle? Experience with my own 6x6 conversion back in the late 1970s showed that even with full load sharing and almost 3ft of bogie articulation, the rearmost differential failure rate was much greater than the foremost rear differential in serious crosscountry operation.
I built mine for better crosscountry mobility, not to carry heavier loads, and for the most part it was reasonably successful and reliable, but the problem with 6x6 conversions for higher crosscountry payloads to vehicles like LandRovers with marginal strength front ends Perenties included,is that sooner or later you will have to reverse up a slope or out of a hole.This is where the additional tare weight plus extra payload places excessive strain on the weak Rover front axle diff and Birfield joints.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

We(4x4 motors Blackburn) had one of those BorgWarner rear ends with vac difflock .They looked good but the understanding was that they were specifically deigned for Perentie and weren't accepted, so lack of spares availability discouraged me from buying it. A company I worked for later on (Bayswater Differentials) fitted Detroit No Spins to both rear Salisbury diffs and to the centre differential of the transfercase to the 6x6 Perenties that went to Afghanistan.
Wagoo.

Borg warner as in holden???

So they were a prototype?

[isuzurover]

:)
Could I be naughty and inject a bit of tech in this thread for a change?
Haven't seen any good rear end photos of the UK conversions, but do you know if they retain the Salisbury diff for the rearmost axle? Experience with my own 6x6 conversion back in the late 1970s showed that even with full load sharing and almost 3ft of bogie articulation, the rearmost differential failure rate was much greater than the foremost rear differential in serious crosscountry operation.
I built mine for better crosscountry mobility, not to carry heavier loads, and for the most part it was reasonably successful and reliable, but the problem with 6x6 conversions for higher crosscountry payloads to vehicles like LandRovers with marginal strength front ends Perenties included,is that sooner or later you will have to reverse up a slope or out of a hole.This is where the additional tare weight plus extra payload places excessive strain on the weak Rover diff and Birfield joints.
Wagoo.

This help Bill?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Snap crackle pop x3

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Borg warner as in holden???

So they were a prototype?Que? :confused:

Borg Warner is a huge multinational transmission company.

They were making auto Transmissions for Rover cars from the 1950s, the Range Rover classic transfer box behind the ZF transmission. Jeep transmissions, auto boxes for most Ford Falcons (without the "taxi pack" C4 transmisson), Holden and Ford diffs and many more.

[isuzurover]

Que? :confused:

Borg Warner is a huge multinational transmission company.

I know, and I know they are well known for making gearboxes, but if you google Borg warner diffs, almost all the hits are related to holdens or fords. I assume that when making the prototypes, LRA would have been likely to source a local axle if they weren't using LR parts.

Maybe BW diffs called something else in other countries?

[wagoo]

Thanks Ben. The old Sandringham 6 conversions to the old leaf sprung Stage Ones were a POS too, but at least they had the good sense to fit the Salisbury at the back.That photo also highlights a problem with bogie conversions with poor articulation.That airborne axle and the mass of the body/chassis behind the forward rear axle is now a counterweight that is using the forward axle as a pivot point to unload or lift the front axle off the ground.

The BW Perentie diff was much larger than Holden HQ/HZ Salisbury or Falcon/Valiant Borg Warner models. but as far as I am aware was designed in cahoots with LandRover as it had a complete LT95 vac difflock actuater.
Wagoo.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

:)
Could I be naughty and inject a bit of tech in this thread for a change?
Haven't seen any good rear end photos of the UK conversions, but do you know if they retain the Salisbury diff for the rearmost axle? <snip>
Wagoo.Wagoo

The simple answer is yes and no.
It really depends upon which conversion company and which model.

The Sandringham 6 particularly the Range Rover used a Rover style diff and that was the arrangement trialled and failed in the Perentie 6x6 Project. Some of the later ones have the modified 2nd axle and a Salisbury rear. At least the Defender that belongs to the ID posted above and it's partner have Salisbury rears.
Thanks Ben.
<snip>
The BW Perentie diff was much larger than Holden HQ/HZ Salisbury or Falcon/Valiant Borg Warner models. but as far as I am aware was designed in cahoots with LandRover as it had a complete LT95 vac difflock actuater.
Wagoo.Wagoo

Do you know if the actuator is actually a 4th diff or merely an engaging mechanism?

When I saw the vehicle mentioned above the owner was convinced it is a locking diff mechanism (as opposed to a diff engaging mechanism) the bracketry on the transfer case uses the CDL mechanism to operate an air switch that engages the vacuum switch on the 2nd axle, not unlike the one on the LT95 (or the same parts). Will see if he'll let me take some piccys next time I'm out there.

Diana

[isuzurover]

The Sandringham 6 particularly the Range Rover used a Rover style diff and that was the arrangement trialled and failed in the Perentie 6x6 Project.

Any evidence for this?? It seems Bill has just established above that the perentie prototypes used BW rear axles...

[wagoo]

Any evidence for this?? It seems Bill has just established above that the perentie prototypes used BW rear axles...

According to LandRovers 6x6 Civilian sales Brochure at the time, they trialled both coil and leaf spring suspension,with and without load sharing before settling on the current layout. There was a leaf sprung Stage One Sandringham 6 pickup in Melbourne around that time that was owned by one of the LandRover workshops that may also have been trialled as I vaguely recall it was military green.My earlier comments were based on observation of that unit. There would probably have been a range of diffs amongst the trialled protos.
Wagoo.

Edit. Missed a bit of your earlier post Dianne. The vacuum difflock actuator was bolted to the back of the diff casting in the approximate location where the l/h/side diff spreader tool hole would be if it was a Salisbury diff. So it was a difflock not a diff engager as on the second rear output housing on the 6x6 t/case.
Wagoo.

[123rover50]

The pics before were a bit far away I recall.

If you take some closeup pics of the rear pan and the centres then someone on pirate4x4 should be able to ID them. If you post them here I can post them on pirate for you.

These are the dana axle pans (not to scale):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1299.jpg

http://www.akextreme4x4.com/images/tech/axleid/Axle%20ID.jpg

Most of these are rotated 90 deg.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/1300.jpg

However - those lists are quite extensive - you should be able to tell us now!!!

OK I popped out to take a pik. To me they dont look like any of those

[wagoo]

Yes, that is the same Borg Warner diff that I mentioned earlier.Why they didn't develop a difflock for the Salisbury back then I think had something to do with local content requirements, and Borg Warner had a factory in Aus (Albury?) Don't know why they didn't use them in production Perenties though.
Wagoo.

[isuzurover]

OK I popped out to take a pik. To me they dont look like any of those

You are right - no listing for an "11-bolt".

Bill is probably right, but a model number would help you with parts. I have posted here ID these axles please! (Borg-Warner???) - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12594351#post12594351)
Hope that is OK? We will see what turns up.

Do you know what spline count the axles are? Is there a serial/BOM number on the axle casing? (BOM numbers are Dana only, but borg warner may have a similar number).

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Any evidence for this?? It seems Bill has just established above that the perentie prototypes used BW rear axles...I'm not sure - I didn't know about the BW diffs and thought they looked like a weird Rover diff - hence my comment "Rover style" maybe I should have said "banjo".

However if you or someone with more knowledge than I say it's a BW diff then it's a BW diff.

I can say that the 2nd axle diff in the Defender 6X6 at my friends, is the same as the two hanging under the Defender going over the sand dune (above).

As far as I know there were a number of manufacturers who made the UK 6X6 variants: Sandringham; Hotspur; Charmichael to name a few and Land Rover Special Products are rumoured to have done some also.

[isuzurover]

I'm not sure - I didn't know about the BW diffs and thought they looked like a weird Rover diff - hence my comment "Rover style" maybe I should have said "banjo".

However if you or someone with more knowledge than I say it's a BW diff then it's a BW diff.

I can say that the 2nd axle diff in the Defender 6X6 at my friends, is the same as the two hanging under the Defender going over the sand dune (above).

As far as I know there were a number of manufacturers who made the UK 6X6 variants: Sandringham; Hotspur; Charmichael to name a few and Land Rover Special Products are rumoured to have done some also.

I was talking about the Perenties (I thought you were too?). I have never seen one with banjo type diffs (but Bill reports above that LRA may have imported one of almost every variant to trial).

123roverwhatever's 6x6 does not have banjo diffs.

The foley 6x6 pic I posted has rover diffs - as does every foley 6x6 pic I can find on their website and elsewhere - that is not to say they weren't changed to sals/etc in service when (not if) the rover diffs failed.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

AFAIK one of the first Perentie trials 6X6 was a Stage 1 chassis and body, Range Rover suspension chassis brackets and Sandringham 6 running gear. There is a picture of it in the REMLR site, after it was retrofitted with the leaf spring arrangement that did make it to trial.

Ward from Graeme Cooper Automotive was on the 6X6 trials build team, or at least the SAS variant build, so I keep trying to pry info out of him. Have also spoken at length about the Perentie trials with Hugh Davis who was somehow also involved. One of the comments from Ward were that JRA took the vehicle out on tracks around Sydney and the system failed within 48 hours. Hugh suggests JRA then tried to get parts shipped from the U.K. and with several trys they got several different components supposed to be the same as the original vehicle. At that point they decided that they needed something more reliable in both it's durability and it's parts chain. Hence the move to whatever diffs, you people mentioned BW, I have also heard Oerlikon. It may be that the Sandringham system was only ever tested during development by JRA for the Perentie, but it never made it to trial with the Army, hence it was not a Perentie.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Dropped one of my RRc for service at Coopers today and had a chance to talk to Ward.

JRA imported two UK 6X6 variants for testing prior to initial build for the Perentie trials. They were both TACR: one a Range Rover TACR 6X6 had coil springs and three Rover diffs. The second axle assembly had a rover diff, with a second diff nose and pinion mounted at the rear. This drive to the rear axle therefore went pinion->crownwheel->pinion->prop shaft->rear diff/axle.
The second Land Rover/Defender TACR had leaf suspension and drive with a system as described earlier in this thread. The leaf springs were not load sharing.Both vehicles were designed for airfield mobility, did not articulate well off road and the systems were abandoned in favour of the locally designed and built system in the 6X6 Perenties we know now.

[wagoo]

Dropped one of my RRc for service at Coopers today and had a chance to talk to Ward.

JRA imported two UK 6X6 variants for testing prior to initial build for the Perentie trials. They were both TACR:

one a Range Rover TACR 6X6 had coil springs and three Rover diffs. The second axle assembly had a rover diff, with a second diff nose and pinion mounted at the rear. This drive to the rear axle therefore went pinion->crownwheel->pinion->prop shaft->rear diff/axle.
The second Land Rover/Defender TACR had leaf suspension and drive with a system as described earlier in this thread. The leaf springs were not load sharing.

Both vehicles were designed for airfield mobility, did not articulate well off road and the systems were abandoned in favour of the locally designed and built system in the 6X6 Perenties we know now.

The astonishing thing is that JRA even bothered to import and trial those two vehicles.
The 2 pinion idea is rubbish. Virtually impossible to set up correctly, and with a 36'' axle spacing would give a coupling propshaft only 15'' long. No wonder it didn't articulate very well.
The second vehicle sounds a bit like the Sandringham 6. Aside from no load sharing, the first rear axle was moved forward to a location under the 109 chassis where there was virtually no space for suspension uptravel anyway. A brilliantly thought out conversion it wasn't.
Wagoo.

Edit.When I was talking to Geoff Stubbs, one of JRAs product development guys back in the 80's, while the 6x6 was being developed, he told me that the front diff originally was a shot peened 4.7:1 Rover type crown wheel and pinion model that failed in the last days of prototype testing. the Oerlikon crownwheel and pinion was a direct replacement for the Rover set and fitted into the Rover diff housing, and was always only intended for the Perentie front end, not the rear bogie.

Edit 2. Is 123Rovers 6x6 still under construction, or has it been completed? Reason for asking is that there is no propshaft fitted to BW diff in photo.

[isuzurover]

You are right - no listing for an "11-bolt".

Bill is probably right, but a model number would help you with parts. I have posted here ID these axles please! (Borg-Warner???) - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12594351#post12594351)
Hope that is OK? We will see what turns up.

Do you know what spline count the axles are? Is there a serial/BOM number on the axle casing? (BOM numbers are Dana only, but borg warner may have a similar number).

I just found this site:
SAA Website (http://www.spiceraxle.com.au/experience.htm)

This may explain why Borg Warner diffs seem only to be fitted to AU vehicles ;)

123rover - you may with to contact them directly - they may have info on your diffs.

Or maybe BTR/ION

Tuesday, April 9, 2002 . Posted: 09:44:45 (AEDT)
BTR Automotive sold for $88m

Lavington's BTR Automotive plant, near Albury Wodonga, has been sold for $88 million.

The plant will come under the Australian ownership of alloy manufacturer ION Limited, after being sold by its UK-based parent company.

A spokesman for ION says new markets for BTR products are being sought in Australia and overseas, with the potential to increase production to meet new demand.

The BTR plant, which employs about 850 people, is currently operating at near capacity, supplying vehicle transmissions to both Ford Australia and Ssangyong of Korea.

Further details of the takeover are expected to be announced at a press conference this afternoon.


The holden and falcon diffs are a BTR70 and BTR78 - dating from 1963. If your diffs are Tuesday, April 9, 2002 . Posted: 09:44:45 (AEDT)
BTR Automotive sold for $88m

Lavington's BTR Automotive plant, near Albury Wodonga, has been sold for $88 million.

The plant will come under the Australian ownership of alloy manufacturer ION Limited, after being sold by its UK-based parent company.

A spokesman for ION says new markets for BTR products are being sought in Australia and overseas, with the potential to increase production to meet new demand.

The BTR plant, which employs about 850 people, is currently operating at near capacity, supplying vehicle transmissions to both Ford Australia and Ssangyong of Korea.

Further details of the takeover are expected to be announced at a press conference this afternoon.[/quote]

The holden/ford diffs are the BTR70 and BTR78. If your diff is larger then???

[123rover50]

Isuzurover.
The only marks I have found are cast in the housing and reading upside down with a mirror appear to be E26Y - 59C - V.
I havnt found any on the tubes.

Wagoo.
The truck is operational but I have been changing gearboxes and untill I am satisfied with the present box [ I am not] I did not want to go through installing the rear drive and bottom PTO only to take them off again.
All that stuff makes the TB too heavy to lift on and off the back of the GB.

Thanks for the info. I will try and contact BTR and it will be interesting to hear what Pirate says.

[rick130]

I'm wondering if those BW diffs are the same as fitted to the Kaiser/Willys CJ's that were built in Brisbane in the sixties ?
I'm pretty sure there's some photos on here.

IIRC BW/BTR were just round the corner from JRA at Morebank.

[edit]not if you look at the photos of 101 Ron on this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/106837-identifying-jeep-3.html

[rick130]

Didn't Dana buy out the BTR operation here in the last eight years ?

[edit]



On July 1, 2000 the Fairfield, South African and Indonesian facilities became part of the Spicer Light Axle Division. This division is part of the worldwide Dana Corporation which is headquartered in Toledo, USA. The Albury transmission operation was not part of this change and remained BTR Automotive.
Spicer Axle Australia Pty Ltd at Fairfield is focussed on the design, manufacture and assembly of automotive axle products. More than 6.5 million axle assemblies have been delivered to customers both locally in Australia and overseas.


SAA Website (http://www.spiceraxle.com.au/experience.htm)

The (now M) 78 is still a current production diff.

SAA Website (http://www.spiceraxle.com.au/products.htm)

[rick130]

I'd never seen a LR diff quite like this at the time. Is this the BW type??
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4574/img1383h.jpg


That's a very different diff to the one above.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[wagoo]

That's a very different diff to the one above.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/33818d1299022661-6x6-110-pics-info-wanted-dsc01292.jpg

That is true, but if local content requirements was the reasoning behind trialling the Borg Warner diff below, I can't think of any other company that
had a manufacturing plant in Australia as a source for the diff above.

The casting certainly doesn't look like a modified Salisbury 8HA.
Wagoo.

[rick130]

123rover50's diffs are definitely Borg Warner, you can clearly see the BW logo cast into the bottom of the housing in the third photo.

isuzubobs are BW diffs too, I just reckon they are either Holden or Nissan housings and not Ford.
BTR/BW ended up supplying everyone here with rear drive diffs after Holden dropped their old banjo and Sals diffs.

I just had a bo peep under dear old dad's ED Falcon and it looks like a cross between the two, infact the majority of the casting is more like the bottom one with a rounded bottom like the top one.

IIRC BW had at least two ends they could supply, and I think the smallest had a 7.5" or 7.75" diameter CW and they went up from there.

Of course I could just phone a mate and ask and it'd clear up everything as he was one of the development engineers :angel:

[Phoenix]

Ok, this is getting confusing, I might split this into 2 threads when I get a chance!

[Phoenix]

There was a leaf sprung Stage One Sandringham 6 pickup in Melbourne around that time that was owned by one of the LandRover workshops that may also have been trialled as I vaguely recall it was military green.My earlier comments were based on observation of that unit. There would probably have been a range of diffs amongst the trialled protos.
Wagoo.

That green sandringham may well have been, or become, part of the military project. Info and pics here Project Perentie - Land Rovers Vehicles-REMLR (http://www.remlr.com/perentie-project-LR.htm)

[toad]

Ok, I just checked some Army doco and all the Military 6x6 are fitted with a Rover type (four pinion) front diff and two Salisbury diffs in the rear axle sets. I had heard that no-spins were fitted to SF vehicles before deployment OS.

I can offer no reason as to why differnt diffs were fitted to some of the early 6x6's but they may be prototypes? I know of several being:

Narrow axles all round (and narrow cab);
Wide rear axles, narrow cab;
wide axle set and widened S3 style cab; and finally
wide axle set and pre production wide cab with modified roof.

Until LR had the ink dry on the drivetrain they may have played will local axle sets as an interim stopgap measure (locally made from local commercial product) rather than setting up a production line for what may have been a very limited model run!!

Many of the prototype vehicles ended up at the Army Apprentice School or RAEME Trainng Centre. One was even sold off by two enterprising apprenti to a local cocky after a couple of litres of mission brown paint. Thing came unstuck for the cockey when it came time to register it butl The Army had listed the chassis and engine numbers on the stolen vehicle register.

As to what type of diffs they are all I can suggest is to look at what was around in 1985 ish when this was on the drawing board.