Towing Caravan with TD5 Series 2 Auto with SLS

[Marnie]

I've read the handbook about no load levelling devices to be used and took off on first trip with 2575kg GTM (25 feet 10 inches) van. Wow! FRIGHTENING! Ok till a semi wanted to pass and then un- controllable tail wagging when he was in passing mode even tho I was driving on the road shoulder to give maximum space between us - as I had always done in the past.

Pulled in to trailer expert, he was appalled when I showed him the handbook directive! A telephone call to Hayman Reece and a friction sway control was fitted with big improvement but the rig is still uncertain on the road.
We can't get enough weight onto the Disco front wheels ball weight is 230kg; incidentally pulled this van for thousands of kms with the old series 80 4.5 litre Cruiser...no worries like we now experience; the 30 to 35 litres per 100 was getting me down is why we went to a TD5 which gave us 15 litres per 100kms over 3,500 kms on the recent trip! Be interesting to do the figures next trip as I have removed the EGR valve now.
Can anyone tell me why L/Rover is so adamantly against LLH's; I believe that the new Patrols also ban LLH's.

[BigJon]

Two reasons.

One: The genuine Land Rover towbar is not rated for it.
Two: The SLS will have a little fit at the change in loading.

Do a search for weight distibuting hitch or WDH, you will find a lot of information.

[disco2hse]

Also, 230kg on the ball is too much. The maximum for the LR tow hitch is 150kg. Your caravan probably has poorly distributed weight (too much in the front, that much is sure, but may also be too much in the rear).

I have no such issues towing my boat that is 10.5m (~34' 4") overall on the trailer, weighs around 3000kg, but only loads the tow bar by about 100-120kg.

The bulk of the weight must be over the axles of the trailer.

[robbotd5]

Also, 230kg on the ball is too much. The maximum for the LR tow hitch is 150kg. Your caravan probably has poorly distributed weight (too much in the front, that much is sure, but may also be too much in the rear).

I have no such issues towing my boat that is 10.5m (~34' 4") overall on the trailer, weighs around 3000kg, but only loads the tow bar by about 100-120kg.

The bulk of the weight must be over the axles of the trailer.

150kgs? Then why does it say maximum nose load of 250kgs stamped on my towbar?
Regards
Robbo

[d2dave]

There is quite a large thread done on this a while ago. The question I posed and will put again is this: When using load levellers you are transferring some of the weight to the front wheels. So why does SLS not like this? It functions fine with no caravan. It functions fine with a caravan(assuming it is with in weight limit) so why can't a caravan have level rides taking some weight off the rear?

Dave.

[akelly]

Your towball weight is far too high, thats causing the problem (I would think).

We towed our 2,000kg boat, fully loaded (prb total 2.5t) from Sydney to Darwin behind our TD5 D2 (SLS) with the standard towing setup - no problems.

You may need to move some stuff behind the axles to get some load off the ball.

Cheers,

Adam

[101RRS]

150kgs? Then why does it say maximum nose load of 250kgs stamped on my towbar?
Regards
Robbo

That is the towbar limit not the car design limit - While I think the D2 does have a higher limit than 150kg but I don't know what it is - the allowable tow ball weight is the lesser of the towbar design limit and the car limit.

Garry

[TerryO]

The maximum ball weight limit for a D2 is 250 kg, it is a D1 that has a 150 kg limit from memory.

In theory you are not over weight at 230 kg, having said that I have towed our 2500 kg caravan with our D2a with SLS and it is not good to say the least stability wise and I have to be very careful especially on bumpy dirt roads. It is obvious in the way the vehicle handles that there is not enough weight on the front wheels but I did not want to fit a WDH because the caravan is towed off road often and WDH limit's articulation.

Grumdriva who is a member of this website towed for thousands of klm's a 2.7 ton van, his D2 had coils with airbags and a WDH with out any stability issues as far as I know, not like mine.

I have now fixed the problems of towing a reasonably heavy van with a under powered V8 D2a Disco, I brought a TDV6 D3.

It might be an idea to PM Grumdriva, I'm sure he would be happy to assist with advice on how to set your D2 up for towing a big van. By the way maybe the easy way to find him is look in the Markest section where his D2 is for sale. It is a 99 D2 with a 4.6 V8 fitted.

I'd guess often with boats that many would have a much lower centre of gravity and possibly a 2 ton boat might not to be as long as some vans like yours. I'd also guess that vans are more inclined to catch the air off of a truck because of their big slab sides. I tried on several occasions to move more weight back to see if a lighter tow ball weight would assist in front wheel weighting and all it did was make the van cause the Disco to sway more as the tail wagged the dog so to speak.

I'm sure with some research and fiddling you will get a good set up for towing.

Good luck.

cheers,
Terry

[disco2hse]

The commonality then is that those who have towed with more than 200kg on their tow bar have had stability issues and those that tow with less don't. You do the math and make your own decisions.

As I said earlier, the rig I tow is much larger and heavier than the rig concerned and I have no issues.

The problems are too much weight on the tow bar and poor weight distribution.

Sometimes in life you just have to accept that what you are doing is wrong and you need to make the changes yourself. The addition of further technical devices to `fix to problem' only moves the problem elsewhere. That means when that solution fails the results will be more catastrophic.

[Taz]

I have 230kg on my tow ball when towing our 1900kg tandom van with the SLS D2a and its never given me any stablility concerns. No WDH either.

[TerryO]

The commonality then is that those who have towed with more than 200kg on their tow bar have had stability issues and those that tow with less don't. You do the math and make your own decisions.

As I said earlier, the rig I tow is much larger and heavier than the rig concerned and I have no issues.

The problems are too much weight on the tow bar and poor weight distribution.

Sometimes in life you just have to accept that what you are doing is wrong and you need to make the changes yourself. The addition of further technical devices to `fix to problem' only moves the problem elsewhere. That means when that solution fails the results will be more catastrophic.


The accepted norm and one most caravan builders use in Australia when building a van is around the 10% mark for a recommended ball weight. You tow a boat and trailer combo that is 3 ton with a 150 kg ball weight which givs you a 5% ball weight. There's nothing wrong with that if it works for you.

Maybe your right and every caravan builder in this country is wrong. I note that in the UK they build vans with very low ball weights as well. Those vans often in Australia are considered to be very unstable because they tend to bounce around on Australian roads.

Another thing if you could please explain if LR rate a D2 Disco with a maximum ball weight of 250 kg then why would you think that 200 plus kilo's is to much of a ball weight to safely tow with a D2?

I don't know where you live in NZ but being from the Shakey Isles myself I know that no where is to far away from the water so I'd be surprized if you drive more then a hour on average to put your boat in and possibly much less and I bet in most cases you do it on better then average roads compard to here.

Maybe towing 3 ton with a 150 kg ball weight might have a slightly different feel to it on some of our roads, especially the dirt roads that we tow on here. Plus last time I was over there I noticed that you still don't have 26 metre long B doubles screaming past you over the speed limit on the feeways.


I might be summing this up wrong but maybe its a case of horses for courses.

cheers,
Terry

[disco2hse]

OK, after doing some reading and checking things on the car I see that the confusion for me was that the tow hitch (photo attached) had rather strange measures on it. These are set, obviously, to limit the range in which people may get themselves into danger.

Reading the manual, 250kg is achievable for vehicles with SLS provided there is up to 7% of the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) added to the nose weight, otherwise the limit is 150kg. That means that, as has been advised, a weight distribution hitch will do the job or in the absence of that, moving weight in the vehicle forward. I learned something B)

But, on a different note, and its a shame people have to resort to making personal attacks on these forums to try to get their message across. NZ is longer than you might think, it does actually take longer than one hour to drive its length. And, most roads are not straight and are uneven, so if weight distribution is not achieved correctly then the effects can be, and are often, distrastrous. While there are no roads trains here, that is only one of the causes of swaying, and their absence does not therefore mean there will be no swaying of trailers on vehicles. :rolleyes:

[akelly]

We can quote specs and stats all we like. They symptoms described by the OP seem to indicate overloading in front of the axles - of course it might be something else entirely, but why not start with something simple before jumping into load levelling systems? Especially when others are towing the same weight with the same spec vehicle and having no problems...

Have a great week everyone! :)

[PhilipA]

If any of you have read the British research conducted by a university, the major cause of instability in vans was found to be the weight distribution in the van.

If the weight was concentrated near the ends of the van it would couse a "dumbell" effect and exacerbate swaying and instability. They recommended that the heaviest components eg water tanks be sited at or near the axle .

AFAIR they found ball weight to be less of a problem and recommended between 6and 8% ball weight , based on experiments where other variables were excluded.
I am afraid I would have NO confidence in the ability of Australian caravan manufaturers to manage weight distribution.

I have a friend who is /was both a major caravan dealer and still is a loss adjuster contracting to insurance companies. Some of teh stories he tells are hair raising.

Bailey of Bristol - Caravan Stability Studies (http://www.towingstabilitystudies.co.uk/stability-studies-research.php)
Regards Philip A

[TerryO]

But, on a different note, and its a shame people have to resort to making personal attacks on these forums to try to get their message across. NZ is longer than you might think, it does actually take longer than one hour to drive its length. And, most roads are not straight and are uneven, so if weight distribution is not achieved correctly then the effects can be, and are often, distrastrous. While there are no roads trains here, that is only one of the causes of swaying, and their absence does not therefore mean there will be no swaying of trailers on vehicles. :rolleyes:


Whose having a go at who?

For your information I'm a Kiwi from Auckland myself, I have spent half of my life here but I return to NZ on a fairly regular basis so if I want to comment on the state of roads in either country then I'll do so and it will be from a position of personal experience and knowledge.

I never said it took an hour to drive from one end of the country to the other so please don't misquote me especially in such a belittling manner.

As I said in my first reply to your original comment I'm also from the Shakey Isles which you obvioulsy didn't pick up on even thought its a fairly common in country nick name for the land of the long white cloud. There is a reason why it is often called the Shakey Iles just ask anyone in Christchurch right now and I'm sure they will explain.

I have read previously on here comments and seen pictures from Disco owners in NZ asking questions about the Pommy tow hitches that supposedly come fitted standard on NZ Disco's, which I don't believe are common here. Maybe because you get the daft weak looking Pommy one peice tow hitches that is why you have a lower maximum tow ball weight. The LR standard fitment ones that come fitted here definately do say 250 kg not 150 kg.

Further more for your information I wasn't actually having a go at you the first time around.


Regards,
Terry

[disco2hse]

See what I mean?

Some people just have to make it personal.


Whose having a go at who?


[blah blah blah]





I have read previously on here comments and seen pictures from Disco owners in NZ asking questions about the Pommy tow hitches that supposedly come fitted standard on NZ Disco's, which I don't believe are common here. Maybe because you get the daft weak looking Pommy one peice tow hitches that is why you have a lower maximum tow ball weight. The LR standard fitment ones that come fitted here definately do say 250 kg not 150 kg.


Take a closer look at the photo ;)

And what I said, not what you read. :P

[Redback]

My coil D2 has the factory LR heavy duty tow hitch, it's rating is 3.500kg maximum tow weight and maximum 250kg ball weight, my understanding is that all D2s in Australia are rated to this.

AND

just for anyone that would like to know, in England, if you have the factory heavy duty tow hitch with the factory electric braking system, you can tow a 4000kg tamdem axle trailer.

My advice is to try and reduce your ball weight and also try and change where you put things in the trailer, having weight in the wrong place can cause instability in the trailer.

Baz.

[Grumndriva]

Guys,


Regardless of what the well meaning on this thread might believe, road traffic authorities and caravan manufacturers around the world state that for stability the towball weight should be between 8 and 15 % of the total mass of the towed trailer/caravan. In Australia the road traffic authorities recommend 10%.

Those of us who actually do tow caravans extensively can confirm from experience that the greatest contributor to instability is too little weight on the towball. That is, getting it below 7% or so. This can be easily demonstrated experimentally as the University of Bath in the UK has done as the world's leading caravan stabilty research organistion, or with your own caravan if you are brave enough and prepared to take the risk.

As for the D2, while it is rated to tow 3,500 kg, its towball limit is 250 kg, which in effect limits the ideal max caravan weight to around 2.5 tonnes. We have towed 2.7 tonnes for around 30,000 km, with and without a WDH, and will never again tow without one, despite the D2 owners handbook's recommendation against their use.

We have just upgraded to an LC200 in large part because of residual instability with the D2. It just isn't heavy enough or long enough in the wheelbase to tow 2.7 tonnes with the margin of safety that I am comfortable with. Given an upset, the van will just take the Disco where it wants to go regardless of driver inputs (at least until you hit the emergency manual caravan brakes to stabilise the rig again). Anyone who has experienced that will know that it is not a pleasant experience to be suddenly using two or more lanes of road within a second or two of the upset and rapidly approaching jack-knifing and/or rollover. Sadly many have their dreams wrecked because they could not get the manual brakes applied in time to stop the accident, and the most common response after the accident is along the lines of "but it was fine until then".

For what it is worth, in my experience with two large vans, a D2 with 2.7 tonnes on the back and with around 250 kg on the ball is marginal even with WDH. With less weight on the ball or without WDH it is not that good.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The report mentioned above is quite long and a boring read,,

and not really indicative of Ozzy conditions(vehicles/tow weight)

I am happy you are still on the road Grum;).
any pics of the new combo?:wasntme:

and I agree it has a lot to do with wheelbase---

LC=2850
D2=2540

[TerryO]

I know and agree that wheel base is important when it comes to towing but I reckon so is rear overhang and while on a D2 is not that much more then a D1 I have often wondered if a D1 with less overhang would be a more stable tow vehicle then the D2?

While this might have no correlation at all the new 2 door Prado which looks far shorter then its big brother 4 door Prado has a higher maximum tow weight.

Just a thought...

cheers,
Terry

[Marnie]

Guys,


Regardless of what the well meaning on this thread might believe, road traffic authorities and caravan manufacturers around the world state that for stability the towball weight should be between 8 and 15 % of the total mass of the towed trailer/caravan. In Australia the road traffic authorities recommend 10%.

Those of us who actually do tow caravans extensively can confirm from experience that the greatest contributor to instability is too little weight on the towball. That is, getting it below 7% or so. This can be easily demonstrated experimentally as the University of Bath in the UK has done as the world's leading caravan stabilty research organistion, or with your own caravan if you are brave enough and prepared to take the risk.

As for the D2, while it is rated to tow 3,500 kg, its towball limit is 250 kg, which in effect limits the ideal max caravan weight to around 2.5 tonnes. We have towed 2.7 tonnes for around 30,000 km, with and without a WDH, and will never again tow without one, despite the D2 owners handbook's recommendation against their use.

We have just upgraded to an LC200 in large part because of residual instability with the D2. It just isn't heavy enough or long enough in the wheelbase to tow 2.7 tonnes with the margin of safety that I am comfortable with. Given an upset, the van will just take the Disco where it wants to go regardless of driver inputs (at least until you hit the emergency manual caravan brakes to stabilise the rig again). Anyone who has experienced that will know that it is not a pleasant experience to be suddenly using two or more lanes of road within a second or two of the upset and rapidly approaching jack-knifing and/or rollover. Sadly many have their dreams wrecked because they could not get the manual brakes applied in time to stop the accident, and the most common response after the accident is along the lines of "but it was fine until then".

For what it is worth, in my experience with two large vans, a D2 with 2.7 tonnes on the back and with around 250 kg on the ball is marginal even with WDH. With less weight on the ball or without WDH it is not that good.
Thanks for your comments. I am not clear tho as to your D2 towing experience, is it a D2 with SLS?

I am yet to have explained the reason for the warning by LR re using WDH.

Do you know if the 250kg ball weight is because of the SLH or the Towbar capacity?

[TerryO]

See what I mean?

Some people just have to make it personal.

Blah blah blah



Take a closer look at the photo ;)

And what I said, not what you read. :P


My friend there is only person here acting in a childish manner and making it personal and that is not me.

It would seem that you take it personally when someone provides the right information after you have given others the wrong advice.

cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

Marnie - from memory Grum's set up was a coil sprung D2 with Firestone or similar air bags in the rear. Its what I have - 02 D2 with Coilrites. I run the poundage's up for towing my 2 tonn boat - dual axle mechanical override brakes (well its 1.95 fully loaded). I have towed it on long distances over rough and bouncy terrain. The bags make a big difference but are not a full substitute for load bars. But being a boat load bars are not required in this case. With several hundred kg on the ball she does not sway. The D2 was made infinitely better to tow with when I went up a size profile and a size in width and into a HD LT tyre carcass...no more squirm. I would not like to go above 2 tonn - 2.5 tonn max with mine. If you want to hear funny my 95 D1 is rated in the handbook to 4,000kg.

Cheers

[shaunp]

150kgs? Then why does it say maximum nose load of 250kgs stamped on my towbar?
Regards
Robbo

Series 1 are 150, ser 250 make sure you put an auto cooler on it as well. They have a habit of breaking the flex plate, which is claimed to be due to over heating of the TC.

[Marnie]

Thanks, but aren't we talking about 2 different animals? Coils with air bag inserts is not Self levelling suspension...or have I got it wrong?
You comment re tyres is very interesting, because the trailer expert bloke who spoke to Hayman Reece and fitted the friction sway controller hit the roof when he saw my tyres saying they were too flexible in the sidewalls, they are apparently to standard specs. I bought the D2 second hand with new tyres fitted by the dealer.

[TerryO]

edited... The D2 was made infinitely better to tow with when I went up a size profile and a size in width and into a HD LT tyre carcass...no more squirm. I would not like to go above 2 tonn - 2.5 tonn max with mine. If you want to hear funny my 95 D1 is rated in the handbook to 4,000kg.

Cheers


Scott its interesting that you say it tows better with the largerer L/T tyres.

I have only towed our caravan with 265x70x16 L/T Bridgy 694's on the D2 and wondered if the taller then standard tyres even though they are L/T spec might be a bit tall and adding to the instability.

cheer,
Terry

[TerryO]

Thanks, but aren't we talking about 2 different animals? Coils with air bag inserts is not Self levelling suspension...or have I got it wrong?
You comment re tyres is very interesting, because the trailer expert bloke who spoke to Hayman Reece and fitted the friction sway controller hit the roof when he saw my tyres saying they were too flexible in the sidewalls, they are apparently to standard specs. I bought the D2 second hand with new tyres fitted by the dealer.


Marnie yes your right coils springs with air bags is not SLS so is not self leveling.

Interesting about the tyres, if correct it might make it hard as in my case if you want to tow a van off road and then be able to use the vehicle for more serious off road use once there.

cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

Gents - yes of course the SLS is self levelling and the aftermarket bags are not. In terms of tyres my heavier than standard duty Pirelli Scorpions used to squirm like mad and it was disconcerting towing heavy with them. My D1 had the same tyres but in LT and were much better. In the D2 i ditched the Scorpions and went to Maxxis Bravo 751 LT that have much better side wall strength and much much heavier load rating. These tyres smack of the original XPC pattern but are just so good at towing and of course off road work.

Cheers
PS. My brother is a Maxxis re-seller (in a 4WD mod business) and comp truck competitor and he raved over them as did many of his clients which is why I got them. No regrets, excellent wear and handling and noise, and will get the same again next time.

[shaunp]

Gents - yes of course the SLS is self levelling and the aftermarket bags are not. In terms of tyres my heavier than standard duty Pirelli Scorpions used to squirm like mad and it was disconcerting towing heavy with them. My D1 had the same tyres but in LT and were much better. In the D2 i ditched the Scorpions and went to Maxxis Bravo 751 LT that have much better side wall strength and much much heavier load rating. These tyres smack of the original XPC pattern but are just so good at towing and of course off road work.

Cheers
PS. My brother is a Maxxis re-seller (in a 4WD mod business) and comp truck competitor and he raved over them as did many of his clients which is why I got them. No regrets, excellent wear and handling and noise, and will get the same again next time.

Got Bravos on both my Disco's D1 & D2, little noisy at abot 60-70km other than that they seem sweet.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

soooo--

A D1 on 18's
may
tow better than a D2 on 16's
(not withstanding the towball weight)
????

[TerryO]

Surely the maximum D1 tow ball weight of 150 kg is a furphy.

How can a similar chassied vehicle with less rear overhang not have a similar tow ball weight but have a higher towing load unless the actual tow hitch is not as good as the one that comes on a D2?

As for power my way over geared 3.9 V8 D1 (rolling on 33's) excellerates and has more power then my Thor 4.0l V8 D2a, so from that perspective especially if they were on similar circumferance tyres it would be better.

I think your right about 18's they would tidy the D1's handling up dramtically as well.

cheers,
Terry

[101RRS]

Surely the maximum D1 tow ball weight of 150 kg is a furphy.

Terry

Yes it is - the tow ball weight of a D1 is actually 120kg.

[TerryO]

Yes it is - the tow ball weight of a D1 is actually 120kg.


It gets worse! :o

cheers,
Terry

[shaunp]

It gets worse! :o

cheers,
Terry

Actually some of the early hand books say 75kg. The Trailboss bar on my D1 is stamped 175kg however. Qld towbars (trailboss) were the mob who pushed for the ball weight laws, as he was the only bloke who could if the units were compliant at the time.

[Sharkee]

Gday Marnie I too had the same problem. I have a 2000 TD5 Auto with SLS and did have a 16 foot Roma which towed no probs behind our GQ other than being gutless. I towed it with our Disco at xmas and I have to say not much fusses me when towing but it was frightening!!!!!!!!!!. It was all over the place and going into corners well I shall we say needed a rest room, it starting swaying almost out of control. This happened whether I was doing 100 or 70 it didnt matter what speed. I too wanted to use a WDH but according to LR can not on these vehicles with SLS. I did not have the van packed any different to when it was on the back of the Patrol so it wasnt incorrect loading in my case. I sold the van because it was too dangerous and now have a 19ft tandum axle with safety tow suspention and it tows and tracks magnificently behind the TD5. I'm still not happy not using a WDH but it now feels 100 times better/safer to tow. The ST suspention possibly might be the difference I dont know but much happier now.And to think I had the problems with the smaller van was weird. I will be changing the SLS when it fails back to a normal spring set up. The SLS is great in a lot of ways but I prefer springs.

Steve

[slug_burner]

Everyone has there own reality based on their experience, it does not make everything they experience the only possible conclusion.

A statement like "I did not have the van packed any different to when it was on the back of the Patrol so it wasnt incorrect loading in my case" is Sharkies experience and now his reality however there are other possible explanations.

If a caravan does not sway behind a ten tonne high speed tractor it does not say anything about the correct or incorrect loading of the caravan. The heavy tractor will have a much greater tolerance for the weight distribution in the caravan than will a lighter vehicle or one with different geometry of wheel base to towing point distance from rear axle. The Bath University study reports that weight distribution is a contributor. Having the centre of gravity (CoG) closer to the axle/pivot of the caravan reduces the possibility of sway, but you also have to watch where the weight is even if you have balanced the load and placed the CoG in close to the axles or just forward. Having weight on the ball just means that you have placed the CoG forward of the axles/pivot. This probably assist with keeping the tow vehicle wheels in contact with the ground an less likely to scrub sideways therefore preventing that pendulum swing we all dread. CoG is just one parameter the moments of inertia become more important in a dynamic situation so it is not just ball weight or CoG but where the heavy items are located that counts (pendulum comes to mind again).

The length of drawbar or more correctly total trailer distance from towball attachment point to caravan pivot/axles will also contribute to stability as well as make the combination easier to reverse.

I am not sure that the size of tyre in terms of sidewall height contributes to stability, with the LT tyres it is more likely that the stiffness of the sidewalls contribute to stopping the sway from starting. Tyre width will increase friction and reduce the chance of sideways scrubbing.

I don't believe that the average person wants to enter into a debate over moments of inertia or develope a thesis on trailer staibility. If you want stability, heavier tow vehicle, longer wheel base, stiffer suspension including tyre stiffness, will all help. And for the same reasons you cannot turn your tandem trailer in the same space as a single axle trailer, I think that tandems are more stable.

Why LR don't want you to use a WDH on an SLS fitted vehicle?? I can only guess that they expect it to fight the SLS.

Has anyone tried to use a WDH on an SLS vehicle?

[dagz]

For what its worth and always good to discuss and I would also appreciate opinions.....I have a D2, I have fitted airbags in the rear coils. I tow a basestation (Jayco where the motorbikes go in the back) ...I started out with hayman reese load levelling (weight distribution bars), I just couldnot stand the inconvenience of fitting the wd system. got the airbags fitted to the rear coils and have not looked back. My vans is rated at 2700 kgs max with 204kg on the tow ball weight on the compliance plate. All fits legally and tows a treat on the road from a weight and load point of view. The airbags are the way to go. Although I am having problems with my vehicle braking all the time. It is 250,000k's now and assuming that things start to wear out I am looking at something else. Do i go for a ford f250 and suck up the fuel cost or the boys at landrover spares reckon the d3 is just the go. I would mind hearing of any experiences with pulling such a heavy load constantly and how you fair at speed and pulling up hills. Thanks

[d2dave]

Yes it is - the tow ball weight of a D1 is actually 120kg.

I just checked my handbook. 96 TDI. Max ball weight 150KG Max Trailer weight 3500.

Dave.

[Redback]

Another thing people don't factor in when towing, is the more weight you tow, the less weight you can carry in the vehicle and that includes passengers.

This is a legality thing, how many people out there are towing near the max tow rate and have the vehicle packed to the roof and on the roof racks.

I got talking to a bloke at Adels Grove in the Gulf, he was towing a 3.3ton van and had his D2 choker block and the roof rack choker as well:eek: he was complaining that he had gone through 3 sets of SLS bags:eek::eek: he was on his way to Darwin to have his Disco converted to coils, to me he is a fool and just an accident waiting to happen:twisted:

Baz.

[Brian]

I am surprised that no one has yet referred to the LR WDH for D2s mentioned in this forum a few months ago. I will try and find it later.

I have a D2a with SLS, and tow a 17.5 internal dual wheel caravan, Towball is about 220 Kg and van total around 2200Kg, and when the system has levelled out, with almost no issues, except I have noticed that braking power is reduced by what I guess to be about 4%. This is also confirmed by a study mentioned also on here that with a rear load on the tow vehicle (with SLS) of 200 to 250 Kg, the weight on the front wheels is reduced by about 4%. Therefore there is a small decrease in braking with the van attached.

cheers
Brian

[Grumndriva]

Thanks for your comments. I am not clear tho as to your D2 towing experience, is it a D2 with SLS?

I am yet to have explained the reason for the warning by LR re using WDH.

Do you know if the 250kg ball weight is because of the SLH or the Towbar capacity?

Hi Marnie,

My D2 was a coiler: no SLS. (It has since been sold and goes to a forum member in the NT probably next week)

When I was evaluating the D4 as a potential replacement, I wrote to LRA who confirmed that for the D4, the reason was two-fold: the structure of the vehicle had not been designed for the stresses imposed by a WDH and it could confuse the SLS. I assume that the same reasons could possibly apply to the D2 with SLS.

[Grumndriva]

The report mentioned above is quite long and a boring read,,

and not really indicative of Ozzy conditions(vehicles/tow weight)

I am happy you are still on the road Grum;).
any pics of the new combo?:wasntme:

and I agree it has a lot to do with wheelbase---

LC=2850
D2=2540

Hi Peter,

Thanks. Will post a pic once I get the new rig on the road.

[robbotd5]

Sharkee, dagz and Brian.
Do you use the standard L/R tow bar?
Regards
Robbo

[Brian]

Yes, standard tow bar. 3500Kg.

I tink this is the link to LR WDH.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/108732-disco-ii-weight-distribution-tow-bar-package-raa527.html

cheers

[Sharkee]

Gday Robbo yeah standard LR bar. SB I do understand what your saying about variables between makes/models, wheel base, wheeltrack etc etc but in regards to a trol being heavier they weighed pretty much the same (I have weighed both vehicles on a weighbridge). Forgive me if I've missread your post. I also towed that 16ft van with a 97 TD pajero with and with out WDH without any issues so I'm convinced it was the SLS and no WDH causing the problem. I would have loved to have tried that 16fter (I no longer have it) on my d2 after it was converted to springs. Would have been interesting to see if there was any or how much difference. Might be just me but I feel more in control using a WDH. SLS, just my opinion has its advantages but I'm not a real big fan of it. It is a great ride though!

Steve

[dagz]

robbo yep i use the standard tow bar with drop tongue insert.

[Taz]

For D1 owners... I had a Hayman Reece tow hitch that was plated as 120/4000. I took it to a HR dealer and they happily replated it to 150/3500 to match LR recommended limit of 150kg tow ball weight. Charged $10.

Yes it is - the tow ball weight of a D1 is actually 120kg.

[brooksy65]

I've read the handbook about no load levelling devices to be used and took off on first trip with 2575kg GTM (25 feet 10 inches) van. Wow! FRIGHTENING! Ok till a semi wanted to pass and then un- controllable tail wagging when he was in passing mode even tho I was driving on the road shoulder to give maximum space between us - as I had always done in the past.

Pulled in to trailer expert, he was appalled when I showed him the handbook directive! A telephone call to Hayman Reece and a friction sway control was fitted with big improvement but the rig is still uncertain on the road.
We can't get enough weight onto the Disco front wheels ball weight is 230kg; incidentally pulled this van for thousands of kms with the old series 80 4.5 litre Cruiser...no worries like we now experience; the 30 to 35 litres per 100 was getting me down is why we went to a TD5 which gave us 15 litres per 100kms over 3,500 kms on the recent trip! Be interesting to do the figures next trip as I have removed the EGR valve now.
Can anyone tell me why L/Rover is so adamantly against LLH's; I believe that the new Patrols also ban LLH's.
Received this advice from owner of dealership ( van owner ) in 2000. His advice was replace standard multi piece bolted tow hitch with the L/R recommended and approved option P/N RAA 527 tow hitch made by Hayman Reese, refer owners hand book for use with a Weight Distribution device . I have used this device for 13 years & no problems with SLS have replaced only 2 airbags in that time, normal wear & tear towing a 6.2m 2.8 tonne van .Only issue have is van sway due to passing Trucks turbulence To help over come this have increase the ball weight to 300 Kg. plus using WDH.This helped along with running increased tyre pressures to 48 psi on rear L/R & Vans x 4 BF Goodrich AT All- Terrian .But the simple fact is IMO the L/R is too light in vehicle mass/Ball weight & too short in wheel base to tow a heavy van of 2.8 3.0 tonne at 90- 95 Klms without van sway correction becoming a safety issue

[ramblingboy42]

I'm not sure if everyone realises just how heavy 250kg is.....its 550lb in old terms.....if you just put that much in the back of your disco you'd really know it, let alone have it forward of another set of axles swinging on a towball. In fact that 250 is on a lever arm of 3mtrs or more (axle to towball) which can so easily swing the vehicle around. I'm amazed its that high.

[d2dave]

I'm not sure if everyone realises just how heavy 250kg is.....its 550lb in old terms.....if you just put that much in the back of your disco you'd really know it, let alone have it forward of another set of axles swinging on a towball. In fact that 250 is on a lever arm of 3mtrs or more (axle to towball) which can so easily swing the vehicle around. I'm amazed its that high.


If I was pulling a 3 ton van I would rather 250Kg swinging the back of my car, than the one and a quarter tons of van rear of the van axles swinging it. The less weight that you have on the tow bar the higher the probability of this happening.

And that would also be 6 metres of leverage as well.

My vechicle/ tow bar is rated to 250kg. I would not tow anything weighing more than 2500kg without 250 kg on the ball.

[slug_burner]

The tow vehicle,

You have to get the towbar in as close to the rear axle as possible, if your gooseneck has adjustment holes, pull the pin and place the neck in as far as possible. Stiffen up the suspension on the tow vehicle, that is all the way from the tyres through to the suspension springs, use LT tyres with stiffer sidewalls, get the pressure up at the max allowed by the tyre manufacturer, can't do much about air spring stiffness.

The van (pig trailer configuration i.e., an axle group under roughly the center of the van),


Make sure that you have nose weight on the tow coupling onto the ball, rule of thumb is 10% of the ATM. There is a study floating around and I think once it gets below 5% you are asking for trouble. Make sure your suspension rubbers are in good condition. Load all your heavy components in the van over the axles, too much weight away from the axles causes a pendulum effect, that goes for weight too far forward or behind the axle. I'd also pump up the tyres on the van. Make sure the van is riding level with weight on both axles if it is a tandem.

Once you have a stable configuration you can start backing off the tyre pressure on the tug for a little improved comfort. Check as you lower the pressures that you still have a stable setup before lowering the pressure any further.

A number of threads on the forum on towing stability, the above captures most of what gets covered in these threads.

There are limits and I'd say that the 3500 kg rating on LR products is close to that limit. More likely to stay safe and stable by slowing down. You don't want to be on the limit only to find yourself coming down a hill and start to exceed it and getting the tail wagging the dog sort of speak.

[worane]

I have just retired form a caravan sales / service business.
In all the years I worked there I think that the only vans I saw without being over the front boot allowable weight , were the brand new ones we were pre delivering.
I think from memory the front permissible boot weight, was about 30 Kgs.
Most vans which came in for service were crammed to the gills with at least 100 kgs of "stuff".
The other comment I have to make is, most came back for a service with about 32 psi. in the tyres. LOOK AT THE INFO LABEL IN THE BOOT. you will find the tyre pressure should be around 50 psi It makes for a lot more stability AND less rolling resistance.

[Tebby]

I have just retired form a caravan sales / service business.
In all the years I worked there I think that the only vans I saw without being over the front boot allowable weight , were the brand new ones we were pre delivering.
I think from memory the front permissible boot weight, was about 30 Kgs.
Most vans which came in for service were crammed to the gills with at least 100 kgs of "stuff".
The other comment I have to make is, most came back for a service with about 32 psi. in the tyres. LOOK AT THE INFO LABEL IN THE BOOT. you will find the tyre pressure should be around 50 psi It makes for a lot more stability AND less rolling resistance.

Hi all, first time poster so hope this is in the right spot.
The info on towing is great especially being based on experience rather than theory alone.
Towing a 2.3 GVM van behind a 2002 TD5 with no sls but do have a H Reece wdh.
260 Kg on the ball with both water tanks full abut otherwise empty except for a couple of chairs & very lightweight stuff in the front boot!
Hard to figure how to redistribute the weight in the van to get the weight off the ball.Aussie vans have a lot of heavy stuff up front ahead of the rear axle.
Any other suggestions?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Its not you,,
and its not the tug,,
its how caravans are built.
they are not designed to be towed, they are designed to sell,
some do tow, just.
some tow great,
and some just fail.

Its not even an engineering/physics problem,
the designers just build vans like shiney penthouses and expect YOU and I to buy it.
Thats it. BUY it.
they DONT care that it tows badly,
in fact, I doubt any designers ever taken one for a spin,
all they see is floor plan.

anyone you know taken a NEW van for a 4 hour test drive, with full tanks and gear?

[Tebby]

Thanks Pedro, will just make the best of it I guess. The whole rig tows pretty well as far as my limited knowledge can judge, I'm just concerned that the tow ball weight is over the limit of 250Kg's that's noted on the Hayman Reece label fixed to the door, & it will be well over when fully loaded.I'll just have to travel with an empty front tank, & live with not having as much H2o as planned when we bush camp.:(

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Dont forget Tebby,, that 250 comes off your rear axle loading,,,


brings up an interesting point about WDH though,,
how much of that (often read about) 300kgs makes it to the front axle?
and if it does,,
wont that overload it?

I think my D2 has about 100kg available on the front axle for load,,
I think,,

[DiscoKym]

I have scanned through all the pages and no one mentions tyre pressures?

I had stability issues towing with my Disco 2 - very loose back end. Always seemed to push wide on the back in corners etc.

I run 32 front and 40 rear psi pressures. I checked the tyre placard and it says 46 psi while towing.

As soon as I went to 45 psi on the rear while towing it sits stable and corners great. NOTE I have coils all round and ACE.

Just a thought from experience and reading the placard.. :)