Nitrogen infllation of tyres?

[petera]

I have been getting quotes for silent armours to put on the new 18 in rims when they arrive, and a couple of tryre delaers have suggested inflating with nitrogen; they claim better fuel economy and tyre wear and slower deflation. I guess if the above is true it is pointless if I change tyre pressures when off road.
comments?
Cheers,
Peter

[p38arover]

I'm not convinced - after all, air is 78% nitrogen anyway.

[PhilipA]

BS alarm! BS Alarm!

Great when you have to go to a tyre dealer to check your tyres.

What about if you air down for the beach?
Regards Philip A

[Blknight.aus]

the only time nitrogen inflation is worth it is when you have to deal with the condensates evaporating and changing the tyre pressures...

if there's that much water in the air from the tyre shops compressor I reckon that that's a tyre shop you want to avoid and if you were driving your landy fast enough for that to be a problem you wouldnt have your license long enough for it to be a problem so its moot either way.

[scarry]

I have heard of truck drivers using it in high ambient areas on large rigs such as road trains.
Pressures stay constant,that is hardly fluctuate with temperature,& the molecules are supposedly bigger than air,so it doesn't bleed as quickly.


I wouldn't use it,in a 4WD,but if i was running a rig with say,for eg, 30 plus tyres,it may be warranted.Constant pressures means better tyre wear,etc, which means $

[CraigE]

Nitrogen tyre fills have been proven to work, but are only generally usefull in tyres with high temps. Long distance driving and racing especially.
Comparing to nitrogen content in the air is just wrong. Nitrogen placed into tyres is very cold. I would only consider using it in a performance application. It is a waste of money for most general purposes, especially if you are airing up and down.
I have spoken to a couple of truck drivers who use it on their steers (good tyres) and on rear drives if the tyres are new with good results. They dont use it on trailers as it is cost prohibitive, most just use water in their trailer tyres.

[streetlander]

........ this is a new one on me for truck tyres!

I used to be a 24 hr roadservice tyrefitter about a decade ago, then elevated to the store manager. We serviced Linfox, Readymix, TDG (now Patricks) among others, and I never put nitogen or water in the tyres.

I did, however, put water in tractor tyres as ballast (weight), back in NZ, and depending on the tyres size, would put 12 liters of metholated spirtits in as well (to act as an anti freeze)

- must be a new thing as I have been out of the loop for a while.

Cant say I'd recommend it for 4x4 tyres.

[JDNSW]

The difference in gas properties between nitrogen and the dirty nitrogen we call air is so slight that any difference will only be perceptible under stringently controlled conditions. Perhaps noticeable in competition conditions, but even then I would doubt it.

Its major advantage is to separate more money from the customer.

John

[NomadicD3]

If your going to be changing gas in your tyres then you should go the whole hog and get helium, makes your whole car lighter, draws heat faster and would truly reduce tyre wear:p:D

[StephenF10]

Pressures stay constant,that is hardly fluctuate with temperature,& the molecules are supposedly bigger than air,so it doesn't bleed as quickly.


Molecular weight of N is 14, O is 16, so N is smaller and more likely to leak. Helium is 2, which would leak REALLY fast!

Stephen.

[p38arover]

Nitrogen placed into tyres is very cold. I would only consider using it in a performance application.

????

And it never heats up?

[rmp]

Just forget nitrogen. No benefit at all except to the dealer's profit margin.

There is an application for it in some very high performance vehicle applications but not for road cars and especially not 4WDs.

Honestly, tyre dealers...what can you do with them.

Ask them for independent statistics which prove their claim. Just for a larf.

[rick130]

Nitrogen tyre fills have been proven to work, but are only generally usefull in tyres with high temps. Long distance driving and racing especially.
Comparing to nitrogen content in the air is just wrong. Nitrogen placed into tyres is very cold.
[snip]


Craig, I hate to say it but that's absolute BS.

I read this sort of stuff on the 'net all the time, and no reflection on you, but it's a case of if you repeat it often enough it becomes truth.

If you have dry nitrogen and dry air, their pressure/temperature relationship is almost the same for the running temps a tyre sees.

The reason people use nitro is that it's deydrated, ie. dry.
If you dehydrate air after it's compressed, lo and behold, you have a similar pressure increase.
The reason 'normal' compressed air has a larger pressure increase with temp than 'dry' nitrogen is the extra water vapour pressure it has.
Remove the water vapour and the temp increases are damned near identical.

Furthermore, if you have bottled nitrogen (and I have) and you blow a tyre up, if the bottle is at ambient temp so is the nitro going into the tyre.
It isn't 'cold'.

I've run dehydrated air and dry nitrogen in race car tyres, the pressure increases were identical.

[CraigE]

........ this is a new one on me for truck tyres!

I used to be a 24 hr roadservice tyrefitter about a decade ago, then elevated to the store manager. We serviced Linfox, Readymix, TDG (now Patricks) among others, and I never put nitogen or water in the tyres.

I did, however, put water in tractor tyres as ballast (weight), back in NZ, and depending on the tyres size, would put 12 liters of metholated spirtits in as well (to act as an anti freeze)

- must be a new thing as I have been out of the loop for a while.

Cant say I'd recommend it for 4x4 tyres.

Logging trucks use water a fair bit.

[Mikes defender]

They use nitrogen in the tyres of Aircraft, for the following reason. It contains no oxygen, so if a brake catches fire it won't me fueled by the oxygen in the tyre when the fuseable over temperature plug lets go and the tyre deflates

Also it has no mosture in it at all. Icing inside tires can cause compliations. With water freezing and thawing out up to every flight it can cause seperation of the layer.

So it seems that it is a complete waste of time and money for people to use nitrogen for the car tyres.

[isuzurover]

Nitrogen placed into tyres is very cold.

:D

Sorry to break it to you Craig, but T=PV/nR for N2 just the same as it does for a mixture of N2 and O2.

As has been said by others, filling passenger car/4x4 tyres with N2 is BS.

OT - many rock crawler 4x4s use water or steel shot in (at least the front) tyres in order to improve stability and inprove climbing ability.

[NomadicD3]

Molecular weight of N is 14, O is 16, so N is smaller and more likely to leak. Helium is 2, which would leak REALLY fast!

Stephen.

Just in case the point was missed, i was only joking, it clearly seems to me to be a complete waste of time changing gas in your tyres. Infact i think what i wrote was rather funny and am still laughing everytime i read it:D:D:D:D

[rmp]

Just in case the point was missed, i was only joking, it clearly seems to me to be a complete waste of time changing gas in your tyres. Infact i think what i wrote was rather funny and am still laughing everytime i read it:D:D:D:D

I got it and I ;-)

[Neil P]

Its major advantage is to separate more money from the customer.

Yes Sir ! :lol2:

[petera]

Thanks everyone for the replies.
It seems that the consensus is that it is a waste of time/money which agrees with waht my gut instincts where.
It is good to to get the BS meter calibrated and confirmed working:)

[wrinklearthur]

Thanks everyone for the replies.
It seems that the consensus is that it is a waste of time/money which agrees with waht my gut instincts where.
It is good to to get the BS meter calibrated and confirmed working:)

With the meter calibrated so that, 10 = complete BS and 0 = that's right, no BS.

This would have a BS score of ------ 8/10, as nitrogen is used sometimes, instead of dehydrated air in some applications, not a lot of use in a four wheel drive tyre.

Maybe use it to keep the camera lens clear instead.

Cheers Arthur

[Blknight.aus]

to fully calibrate the meter...

"hiclones make turbo diesel engines more effecient and powerfull" thats a firmly pegged at the stops 10/10.

"The last factory engine put in a vehicle worthy of the defender badge had 5 cylinders" should see the meter hovering at about a 1. (disputable due only because what the tdi300 looses in power economy and the timing belt it balances with its simplicity and lack of electronics)

"the best engine landrover never made for but installed in a shed class rover is a diesel with 4 cylinders each of nearly 1l capacity" should see the meter failing to react at all.

[TerryO]

Motorcycle road racing is a sport that is more reliant on correct tyre choice and tyre pressures to get the fastest and safest lap times than any other motorsport and I don't know of any Australian teams either privateer or factory using nitrogen.

I have a mate who was a manager of a large bike shop and he told me that when he had introduced free nitrogen top ups for his customers his accessories sales had dramatically improved because people came into the bike shop on a far more regular basis to check tyre pressures.

He thought it quite amazing that so many people could be dudded so easily.

cheers,
Terry

[bbyer]

Is there any merit to the "nitrogen required" sales pitch that says if you have those internal tyre pressure sensors, that they false alot unless one has at least 96% nitrogen in the tyre?

I was thinking of putting in some kind of after market tyre sensor setup when I next purchase tyres, but the idea of having a nitrogen fill / top up requirement all the time pretty much kills any idea of doing the remote sensor thing. Even if nitrogen was a good idea, (and I do not think it is for normal vehicles), for me, nitrogen would stop me from checking the tyre pressure everytime I wash the vehicle because if a tyre needed topping up, well it would not be all that easy.

In the winter, I usually check tyre pressure at the car wash as it is inside and hence warm. The idea of checking tyre pressure outside in freezing conditions means a possible valve freeze up and hence a leak and then I am changing a tyre outside in the cold - not smart, or trying to thaw a frozen valve with alcohol - a real waste.

My 2005 LR3 does not have the tyre pressure monitoring system - only the symbol. I think however, that most newer vehicles here now have some sort of tyre pressure monitering, but they still just run on normal air - well 78% nitrogen if you are into that sort of thing.

[bee utey]

I am thinking of putting a sign up:

New, improved, special 78% Nitrogen Inflator mix for your tyres' increased health, now with an extra 10% pressure to save your life, increase your handling and get extra MPG too !!!111!!!

[isuzurover]

Is there any merit to the "nitrogen required" sales pitch that says if you have those internal tyre pressure sensors, that they false alot unless one has at least 96% nitrogen in the tyre?


No. A pressure sensor should be able to measure the pressure in just about any gas mixture.

[Hoges]

Is there any merit to the "nitrogen required" sales pitch that says if you have those internal tyre pressure sensors, that they false alot unless one has at least 96% nitrogen in the tyre?

I was thinking of putting in some kind of after market tyre sensor setup when I next purchase tyres, but the idea of having a nitrogen fill / top up requirement all the time pretty much kills any idea of doing the remote sensor thing. Even if nitrogen was a good idea, (and I do not think it is for normal vehicles), for me, nitrogen would stop me from checking the tyre pressure everytime I wash the vehicle because if a tyre needed topping up, well it would not be all that easy.

In the winter, I usually check tyre pressure at the car wash as it is inside and hence warm. The idea of checking tyre pressure outside in freezing conditions means a possible valve freeze up and hence a leak and then I am changing a tyre outside in the cold - not smart, or trying to thaw a frozen valve with alcohol - a real waste.

My 2005 LR3 does not have the tyre pressure monitoring system - only the symbol. I think however, that most newer vehicles here now have some sort of tyre pressure monitering, but they still just run on normal air - well 78% nitrogen if you are into that sort of thing.

Actually be aware of the new improved air mix which contains 400ppm Carbon Dioxide (0.04%). This is a climate warming gas which will cause massive melt down within the microclimate of your tyres/tires due to gradual increases in temperature. Said meltdown will then cause seismic eruptions in your wallet leading to a tsunami of cash in the direection of the tyre/tire dealer :eek:

[bbyer]

No. A pressure sensor should be able to measure the pressure in just about any gas mixture.

That is good to know as it seems "progress" just continues to get more complicated.

I think I will suggest to my Land Rover dealer the "78% Nitrogen Fill" as a standard invoicing surcharge on an oil change/service.

They currently charge me a "Work Order Processing Fee", (10% add on upcharge), so I am certain that they would find great merit in the 78% billing concept as well.

They said Land Rover Owners seemed to object when they called it a "Shop Fee" to cover the odds and ends, but have no problem with "Processing Fee" - go figure?

78% Nitrogen - All Natural, as Mother Nature Intended - got to be worth paying for and what is a bit of Greenwashing. If you say it often enough, it starts to make sense. :)

[Tote]

Actually be aware of the new improved air mix which contains 400ppm Carbon Dioxide (0.04%). This is a climate warming gas which will cause massive melt down within the microclimate of your tyres/tires due to gradual increases in temperature. Said meltdown will then cause seismic eruptions in your wallet leading to a tsunami of cash in the direection of the tyre/tire dealer :eek:

And airing down will cause greenhouse warming for which you will need to pay a tax.......

Regards,
Tote

[400HPONGAS]

Well , always (use to when new)fill our tyres with Nitrogen !
Well in our rather large off highway FELS and Trucks anyway .!
Pity you have to Vac the tyre down first to actually get it in !
There are two main reasons for using Nitrogen
First one is really around the insurance premiums , in case of a Tyre fire , which is usually Pyrolisis (the fire that burns from within ) . Once one of these mother catches fire , its alllll over!
The second reason is that it cuts down on the internal corrosion of the rim Parts ,(Flanges,beadseats,locking rings etc )enabling them to be easily seperated and re-used . (good maintenace of their compressed air system usually cures this) Seeing these situation only apply to large off-highway vehicles , there really is no benefit in your everday hack .

[Blknight.aus]

I have to admit that we nitrogn fill tyres where I work as well.

partly because the only thing we have that can deliver the 175 PSI thats needed is either the oxy bottles, the mig gas regulator OR the nitrogen charge system that we use for filling hydraulic accumulators.

[Nomad9]

Hey Scarry,
The deflation would be a lot funnier with helium.......... Plus being helium would make the car load on the road surface less being lighter, you might hit a speed bump and travel further than you expected........

[NomadicD3]

Hi Dave, a little off topic but we run 200psi LP compressors all the time!! In fact there is one in every system we build not to mention that there is always the use of HP compressors which could give you up to 5000psi.
However try filling the tyres straight from the oxy bottle on your oxy/acetylene set, should be good for a few laughs:D Probably should do that on a custom you don't really like that much:wasntme:



I have to admit that we nitrogn fill tyres where I work as well.

partly because the only thing we have that can deliver the 175 PSI thats needed is either the oxy bottles, the mig gas regulator OR the nitrogen charge system that we use for filling hydraulic accumulators.

[gazm3]

we use nitrogen for club racing tyres mainly as they increase pressure less when they get hot, but on 4wd id say its overkill unless for competition use ie Finke desert race ect

[Mick_Marsh]

I have been getting quotes for silent armours to put on the new 18 in rims when they arrive, and a couple of tryre delaers have suggested inflating with nitrogen; they claim better fuel economy and tyre wear and slower deflation. I guess if the above is true it is pointless if I change tyre pressures when off road.
comments?
Cheers,
Peter
Was told by a proprietor of a tyre store who used to supply tyres for the "Australian Touring Cars".
In racing, where tyre inflation is critical, to know what pressure your tyre is at what temperature is vital. They use nitrogen.
Air is, what, about 80% nitrogen anyway.
If you're not racing on a circuit, to fill your tyres with nitrogen only, a pointless waste of money. Especially if you're going to be airing down.

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Dave, a little off topic but we run 200psi LP compressors all the time!! In fact there is one in every system we build not to mention that there is always the use of HP compressors which could give you up to 5000psi.
However try filling the tyres straight from the oxy bottle on your oxy/acetylene set, should be good for a few laughs:D Probably should do that on a custom you don't really like that much:wasntme:

we dont have one of those compressors and purchasing one just to do one varient of vehicles tyres?

I have thought about suggesting we get a set of dive tanks converted so that we can use the dive clubs compressor.

[rick130]

I have thought about suggesting we get a set of dive tanks converted so that we can use the dive clubs compressor.

When I was using bottled air in the race car I made an adapter and had them filled at the local dive shop. (much cheaper than my bottled nitrogen ;))
It was dry enough not to notice any difference between my dry nitrogen and we always ran our tyres to a hot pressure anyway.