Rear Discs conversion worth it?

[land864]

As the post suggests. Is the increase in stopping power that much more noticable after the drums have been converted to discs?

[Blknight.aus]

nope, barely worth it other than you dont have to adjust the disc brakes.. .but then you also loose the nice self activating leading shoe that lets you do some traction control imitation while offroading...


and changing the discs is a lot harder than changing the drum and shoes.

[isuzurover]

Huge increase in stopping power after a creek crossing - otherwise minor increase. However:

No adjustment
Changing pads is a lot quicker and easier than changing linings.

Only downside IME is that pads wear out faster than linings - especially when driving the canning stock route after 84 mm of rain!!!

[p38arover]

and changing the discs is a lot harder than changing the drum and shoes.

But how often does one change discs? Pads in the RRC/Disco1/County/Defender are dead easy and quick to change - a few minutes each.

I don't have all the details but was speaking to Merv Vessey of the LROC last Saturday and he converted his.

I thought one needed a full Defender rear end swap but Merv said one uses front hubs/stub axles from County/Defender and the conversion can be done using the County axle housing.

[rar110]

I think discs are an improvement over drums, also less hastle.

I did a Cape York trip in my first 110 which had drums. The snail cams kept adjusting off and had no brakes for most of the trip. Had them fixed in Bamaga only to have no brakes again 100 or so ks later. That trip killed any tolerance I had for drum brakes. It was probably easily fixed by something like new cams. However no one seemed to be able to get them working well. The double adjustment seemed to confuse them.

[isuzurover]

But how often does one change discs? Pads in the RRC/Disco1/County/Defender are dead easy and quick to change - a few minutes each.


Exactly!



I thought one needed a full Defender rear end swap but Merv said one uses front hubs/stub axles from County/Defender and the conversion can be done using the County axle housing.

The main housing and diff centre is the same on a disc or drum sals. So no need to swap housings. There are two different bolt-on conversions: (a) you can either bolt the hubs, stubs and brakes from a defender on - in which case you need a 13mm drive flange spacer as county halfshafts are longer (or change to defender halfshafts) (b) you can use perentie disc hubs and brakes, like Rar110 and Bearman have done. This option is designed for the longer county halfshafts, so no spacer, however the hubs for this option are rare as the proverbial.

The only reason people change axles it it is often easier/cheaper just to buy a complete axle instead of all the bits.

Maxi-Drive also used to sell a disc conversion of his own design.

[rar110]

I am still looking to find a second hub (bearing carrier or spindle as Mal Story would call it) to do the army disc brake conversion with larger discs - or an alternative hub that will suit the County length shafts.

I put a 300tdi rear in the Perentie during the re-build. I've been happy with that.

[p38arover]

.......or an alternative hub that will suit the County length shafts.


I thought that was why Merv used front hubs from a County on the rear.

[JDNSW]

The advantages of discs over drums are:-

1. Largely immune to water
2. Don't need regular adjustment
3. Easier to replace friction lining.

In good condition there will be no difference to stopping power, so unless your rear brakes are not working, do not expect a perceptible change.

Up to you whether these advantages are worth the effort and cost of changing.

For what it is worth, I have relined the rear brakes once and replaced the front pads once in 510,000km, and both front and rear are still in good shape. Adjust the brakes every service, but often no adjustment needed.

John

[isuzurover]

I thought that was why Merv used front hubs from a County on the rear.

You can also use county front hubs on the rear, however from my measurements they will put the disc in the wrong place for off-the-shelf caliper brackets, so a custom bracket is needed. Perentie rear disc hubs look completely different to county/perentie fronts.

This is a perentie rear disc hub compared to a defender rear disc hub. The county front hubs look closer to the defender type than the perentie type.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[DeeJay]

I am still looking to find a second hub (bearing carrier or spindle as Mal Story would call it) to do the army disc brake conversion with larger discs - or an alternative hub that will suit the County length shafts.

I put a 300tdi rear in the Perentie during the re-build. I've been happy with that.

Here is 4 of 'em - in your neck of the woods too;)

Landrover (eBay item 110660768847 end time 20-Mar-11 10:13:51 AEDST) : Cars, Bikes, Boats (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Landrover-/110660768847?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c3e5544f)

The guy asking if they are Salisbury axles must be blind..


BTW,
Anybody who gets out of my '85 Isuzu (drum rear) & into my Chev tray with disc conversion will never say only a moderate difference in braking.
The vehicle weights would not be too different, but if you plant on the disc converted brakes they will lock up at 60 + kph.
I believe because it also has a 130 booster & master cyl..:twisted:

[Blknight.aus]

But how often does one change discs? Pads in the RRC/Disco1/County/Defender are dead easy and quick to change - a few minutes each.

I don't have all the details but was speaking to Merv Vessey of the LROC last Saturday and he converted his.

I thought one needed a full Defender rear end swap but Merv said one uses front hubs/stub axles from County/Defender and the conversion can be done using the County axle housing.

depending on how you drive and how you look after them usually a disc will last 2 sets of pads prior to requiring replacement.

[Svengali0]

Here is 4 of 'em - in your neck of the woods too;)

Landrover (eBay item 110660768847 end time 20-Mar-11 10:13:51 AEDST) : Cars, Bikes, Boats (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Landrover-/110660768847?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c3e5544f)

The guy asking if they are Salisbury axles must be blind..


BTW,
Anybody who gets out of my '85 Isuzu (drum rear) & into my Chev tray with disc conversion will never say only a moderate difference in braking.
The vehicle weights would not be too different, but if you plant on the disc converted brakes they will lock up at 60 + kph.
I believe because it also has a 130 booster & master cyl..:twisted:

Ah yes. It pays to clarify so, no- I am not blind just seeking more information. Perhaps you are having difficulty with reading skills? Possibly a lifelong problem? Maybe your eyesight is better than mine- if so, can you explain the various leads and pipes leading from the rear axle housing in the images supplied? Is the rear plate painted white and oxidised or is it alloy? Maybe it is a Holden Salisbury? Maybe the rig is good buy and is 'what it is' and 'fit for purpose'- Maybe not? Maybe it's a 'home job' from constructed from various parts sitting on a dirt floor? Perhaps the odd Chev component left over from previous attempts at 'performance'? Let me know when you have actually owned a 6x6 perentie and then maybe, speak with a little more authority.

In addition, with regard to the statement directly above, it is not generally considered a good thing for brakes to lock up- at 60km/h or otherwise. If this is the proof that you offer regarding a quality outcome from your disc brake conversion in your 'Chev Tray' whatever the hell dogs-breakfast that is, then perhaps judgement is also lacking.

I hear that an HJ 45 makes a good Chev mule. This is (by the way) an L/R 110 Isuzu diesel forum. Not many (none?) of these cars came out with disc brake rear ends so interest in this is perhaps understandable.

Hope this feedback helps.
Cheers mate...

[Blknight.aus]

either that or he cant setup brakes properly?

[isuzutoo-eh]

Hi Svengali0,
The rearmost diff pumpkin painted white is a convoy visibility thing the army does or did.
If you are thinking of using the whole axle/diff assemblies for your 110, then those off the 6x6 will be too wide. Perentie 6x6s have a wider track than their 4x4 stablemates. Though I'm only an internet warrior so don't take my word for gospel.

[Bigbjorn]

My 86 County has four wheel disc brakes and is a brilliant stopper. The previous owner fitted them. He said he used a "Factory conversion Kit".

[85 county]

Right OK here goes

There has been mini bun fights over this before and I suppose there will be again.

There is very little difference between a well sorted drum rear and disks, if any.
I can and do chirp the inside rear under heavy braking. My Isuzu is always loaded.

I elected to stay with drums and prefer drums for the following reasons.

I live in SA, so mud water or any thing wet is not a major issue.
It’s cheaper
In dusty conditions drums will out last disks. NO DEBATE.

Drums do require a bit more knowledge to set up well. i.e. there are different Dia shoes as your drum wears. Some after market shoes don’t have a chamfer (need to do this yourself)
They need manual adjustment ( No big deal, if every thing else is good 30 seconds for both)
Cleaning is not a bad idea, (every time you pull a wheel off)

But the biggest advantage is I know I will always have rear brakes to get home on and will not be grinding steel on steel or have ½ a rotor rip the caliper off ( seen that a couple of times)

I have seen rear disks cut out in about 15000K although that is extreme.

If you were to go out an get a new set of drums & shoes. It’s a lot cheaper than doing the conversion.

Now if you were a puddle jumper or just wanted bragging ego stuff then by all means change to disks.

[isuzurover]

Svengali - no need to get offended... They are undoubtedly salisbury 8HA axles - check the diff ID pics I posted in the 6x6 thread. A blind monkey can tell they are far too large to be holden salisbury.

The diff pan is clearly the standard steel pan, painted convoy white with some rust. There appears to be a breather coming out of the diff pan. The rest of the hoses appear to be brake lines.

There were definitely disc-braked 6x6 and 4x4s - as least the RSFV vehicles. I posted a pic of a 6x6 disc hub I bought earlier in this thread - the guy I bought it from bought it from an army auction in a job lot - unfortunately most of the others were drum hubs.

[DeeJay]

Svengali,
I should have guessed a forum member might have queried that Ebay ad. I plain forgot that the perentie were drum setup, my bad.
With 20 posts, may I welcome you to the forum.
Here is the link to my Chev powered Landie, it is the opposite to my Isuzu, but I love them both for different reasons.
If you read the thread- it's a challange, you will see that the vehicle was largely as setup by one of Melbournes most popular Land Rover mechanics, Fred Smith. And, as stated the all disc setup, IMHO, pulls up the vehicle much more smartly than the Isuzu - I'm repeating myself tho.
As far as the Ebay ad goes, the guy says it's ex Perentie, so I thought you were asking the bleeding obvious ( I still do;))

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/45885-1985-county-upgrade.html

[Svengali0]

Hi Svengali0,
The rearmost diff pumpkin painted white is a convoy visibility thing the army does or did.
If you are thinking of using the whole axle/diff assemblies for your 110, then those off the 6x6 will be too wide. Perentie 6x6s have a wider track than their 4x4 stablemates. Though I'm only an internet warrior so don't take my word for gospel.

My old 6x6 was an early civilian vehicle (unsure of provenance) possibly a pre-production vehicle with similar axle widths to a 110.
Having looked at the army ambulances a few times, they are wider, as is the cab- mine was a normal ute cab. As I had this car in the early nineties, I can't recall what the rear diffs had hanging from them so hence the question posted on the eBay listing. In any event, the diff casings of this rig could not be transplanted without significant effort with a gas axe and grinder but perhaps the hubs, discs and brackets could be.
I am told that the half shafts are longer for the disc braked Defenders. Can't confirm this either. Best price I've had is about $1k for complete defender disc brake rear end complete. In order to get the full benefit, a booster conversion is also indicated and I note this in Deejay's account of modification to one or more of his cars.
There's no way I could make it to Gympie (from Canberra) to pickup the item listed on eBay so maybe someone here could make use of the opportunity. It's not every day that things like this come up and I can't see it going for too much money- perhaps between $500 to $800 at a guess.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Unless I am mistaken Land Rover are selling brand new disc Sals assemblies for $885
LANDROVER PARTS (http://www.landroverclassicparts.com.au/ProductDetail.aspx?prodId=106544)

[isuzurover]

My old 6x6 was an early civilian vehicle (unsure of provenance) possibly a pre-production vehicle with similar axle widths to a 110.
Having looked at the army ambulances a few times, they are wider, as is the cab- mine was a normal ute cab. As I had this car in the early nineties, I can't recall what the rear diffs had hanging from them so hence the question posted on the eBay listing. In any event, the diff casings of this rig could not be transplanted without significant effort with a gas axe and grinder but perhaps the hubs, discs and brackets could be.
I am told that the half shafts are longer for the disc braked Defenders. Can't confirm this either. Best price I've had is about $1k for complete defender disc brake rear end complete. In order to get the full benefit, a booster conversion is also indicated and I note this in Deejay's account of modification to one or more of his cars.
There's no way I could make it to Gympie (from Canberra) to pickup the item listed on eBay so maybe someone here could make use of the opportunity. It's not every day that things like this come up and I can't see it going for too much money- perhaps between $500 to $800 at a guess.

Svengali, most of your questions/queries have been answered already on here (AULRO) if you do a search.

The rear axles are ~12" wider, so no use on anything but a 6x6. However Bearman on here has the 6x6 rear disc setup on his 110 county 4x4. So at least those bits swap over.

Defender disc rears have halfshafts that are SHORTER than drum rears, not longer. So if you put defender brakes on a county you will need a ~15mm spacer between the hub and drive flange (see rhs of image):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/03/585.jpg

If you put perentie discs on a county, they are designed for county-vintage axles so no modifications are needed.

EDIT - forgot to add, I kept the same MC and booster and have had no issues. The defender MC and boosted may improve things, but my brakes work very well, and as 4-wheel discs should.

[101RRS]

See info here
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/50181-salisbury-disc-brake-conversion.html

Drum brake 110 salisbury disc brake conversion - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=11685)

There may be also further links inside the above links

Garry

[85 county]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/125030-brake-pad-wear-2007-my.html

[klappers]

So is there any difference then?? Some people say yes some people say no... I would have thought that if you were going to go through a lot of water then discs for the win.. but if this is not the case then I cant see why there would be much difference overall.. Drums are pretty simple though

[isuzurover]

But the biggest advantage is I know I will always have rear brakes to get home on and will not be grinding steel on steel or have ½ a rotor rip the caliper off ( seen that a couple of times)

Seriously, how common is that - never seen it happen...

However what has happened to me is I have had a drum lining delaminate - which meant loss of brakes on a IIA with a single circuit system.

The 110 is dual circuit - so if you lose the rear brakes you still have the front and vice versa. I just did ~3500 km on just the front brakes (on the highway) with no issues.

At the end of the day they each have their advantages and disadvantages, and it comes down to personal preference. Who are you to deride people who have fitted disks as "puddle jumpers" or those who wish to have "bragging rights".

IME discs are easier to work on, are better after water crossings (not all of us live in the desert that is SA), and run cooler, meaning less brake fade. IMHO the advantages outweigh the disadvantages you mention. (especially since my discs came free with a locked axle).



So is there any difference then?? Some people say yes some people say no... I would have thought that if you were going to go through a lot of water then discs for the win.. but if this is not the case then I cant see why there would be much difference overall.. Drums are pretty simple though

I have mentioned the advantages of discs above. Perth is flat and dry, and if you do a lot of sand driving you might get accelerated pad wear. So in your case there would be no benefit changing to discs as long as you don't mind adjusting drums, unless you regularly need to do creek crossings.

[abaddonxi]

I would think that for the price in the above post you would only need a couple of very minor things wrong with old axle to make a full axle exchange economically viable