KM's outof TD5

[4runnernomore]

Hi all,

wha5t is the expected normal KM out of a TD5 motor?

Is 170000 to many KMsto purchase as a new car and what expected works would be required to keep it reliable?

Cheers, Chris

[seano87]

How long is a piece of string?

Comes down to servicing and how its been treated. 170k is nothing if its been looked after. Some are kicking around with over half a million I'm led to believe.

Service history is vital though. If it can't be verified, or if you have any doubts, walk away - there are plenty others.

[Redback]

To add to the above post, there are things that should be looked at or replaced around those Ks, 180,000 is a major service, so below is what should be looked at or replaced if they haven't already been done.

1) Injector harness, check for oil in the loom and at the ECU plug, oil at the plug will mean it needs replacing

2) Exhaust manifold studs, check for loose nuts or broken studs, especially if the motor has been chipped (power upgrade)

3) Hoses, intercooler and Radiator, for leaks and wear, especialy the small hose under the exhaust manifold

4) Double cardin joint on the front prop shaft at the transfer case end, check for any movement, this can be expensive if it breaks

5) Check the dash when the ignition is on for lights that should not be on, most common are; ABS/TC/HDC, M & S, SRS

Baz.

[shaunp]

Engine mounts go, if the car vibrates at idle it needs mounts. Don't worry too much about the injector loom, even new ones leak. Just wash them out with contact cleaner, every service, the start to cross fire when the oil gets to the contector at the ecu. New ABS modulater is about $1400 fitted to fix the ABS/TC lights when all else fails.

[Redback]

Engine mounts go, if the car vibrates at idle it needs mounts. Don't worry too much about the injector loom, even new ones leak. Just wash them out with contact cleaner, every service, the start to cross fire when the oil gets to the contector at the ecu. New ABS modulater is about $1400 fitted to fix the ABS/TC lights when all else fails.

Checking things first before you buy and have them fixed by the caryard or private seller is better than doing things afterwards at your own exspence, I'm assuming that he's looking at buying one.

Baz.

[Blknight.aus]

are you asking about the vehicle as a whole or just the engine?

my money says that an my03 or later should make 500K Km

[Narangga]

are you asking about the vehicle as a whole or just the engine?

my money says that an my03 or later should make 500K Km

And one before then???

[Bundalene]

I sold a farmer from up Lightening Ridge way a TD5 engine for his Defender which had 485,000kms on it, about 2 years ago, Turned out his engine was still OK, he had leaking injector seals.

I haven't come across a higher Kms TD5 vehicle, plenty in the high 300k kms come up for sale.

Erich

[Blknight.aus]

depends on if you replace the dowels and do the oil pump bolt or not.

from my very rough stats...

providing you do the head gasket and dowels prior to 100K km (and all the other replaceables that go with) then the same 500K but with the caveat that you've had to pull the head.

I measure the expected life of the engine in the duration before you're required to pull the head for maintenance. this doesnt include a breakdown, (ie waterpump failing and cooking it) just normal wear.

for totally stock units with correct maintenance, roughly.

v8s make 150-200K Km and its usually the valve gear that lets them down if they dont do the block or the liners

tdis generally make 250-300K km and usually only need the head lifting to replace the gasket at that time and inspect the bottom half Typically I reccomend that you do the head off at 240K Km as that also lines up with your 3rd timing belt.

pre my03 td5's 100 K Km and then its time to pull the head and do the dowels and the oil pump bolt if you made it that far do this and then its as per

post my03 td5's I havent had to do one yet but gut instinct tells me that a stock unit should make 500K km,

4bd1 500K Km and more but ID do it then just to freshen up some other bits and peices.

from rough stats from my experience, the bottom ends last twice as long as the head end and blocks generally make 2 bottom ends.

[Narangga]

The old head 'dowels'.

The only definitie document I have seen on head dowels is one on this forum in another thread which refers to specific engine numbers (and possibly VIN's but can't remember as I type this).

So is it general concensus that even though my 00.5MY which pre-dates the specific numbers in the Land Rover notice should also have the dowels changed?

Oil pump bolt I have done.

[Blknight.aus]

that'd be my bet.

although technically once the engine is assembled and the head is correctly torqued down the dowels dont do anything they're only there to locate the head during assembly.

Ive always had this nagging feeling that its something else thats causing the problem and the dowels are just a symptom. be it the wrong metalurgy in the bolts or an early version of the headgasket being just not quite right changing the dowels automatically forces a change of the bolts and the headgasket.

[Narangga]

Thanks Dave. I did download the pdf that someone posted about the dowels and that said specifically only those serial numbers quoted. I'll check it when I get home and try and remember to post it here too.

However I was curious given there has been a number of dowel issues reported on the forum.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

We have had posts of d2a's with plastic dowels,,
so its worth a concern Stuu,,
but like Dave says,,
unless the head comes loose the dowels are irrelevent

[Catmatt]

Service history is vital though. If it can't be verified, or if you have any doubts, walk away - there are plenty others

The above points are true but it flys in the face of those of us who save money as a cost effective exercise, and carry out the minor services ourselves rather than have oil and filters replaced by a dealer....just to have it noted in the owners handbook!!

My 1st D1 did over 250K's before I sold it to an Army mate up in Darwin around 2006. I did 80% of the services and blow me down - he was recently posted to Canberra and down he came with the old D1 still going strong!

I agree that Service history is vital but use your discretion with the condition of the vehicle and how it sounds/runs/drives rather than make a judgement via the dealer service record...........And lets be honest - how many potential buyers are going to be concerned about plastic dowels and how the head was torqued sequentially???

[Davetd5]

The local LR spares guy recommended to me that I change the head gasket on my D2a Td5 at 180,000 as a routine thing (ie get it before it goes and cracks the head). I've searched posts here but can't seem to verify if MY03's go less often than early Td5's. Can anyone shed some light?
I wouldn't normally just take mechanical advice from spare parts guys but this fella is a qualified diesel mechanic. Odo is up to 145k and I'm doing all the hoses before going up to Lake Eyre again next month.

[Narangga]

We have had posts of d2a's with plastic dowels,,
so its worth a concern Stuu,,
but like Dave says,,
unless the head comes loose the dowels are irrelevent

Thanks Pedro.

Actually the main concern is the nut behind the wheel. :angel:

[Defender Mike]

Interesting reading so far. I have just passed 200,000ks with 2 recent trips across the Nullabore. Had the old girl chipped on the way home which will probably stress the engine a bit more. I am heading up North this winter for a holiday in the Kimberly and need to get everything perfect before I go. I have not repaced head gaskets or double cardin and have only replaced one hub the Left rear. What major items should I be looking at before I head off. I do all my own servicing but will hand over to Mechanic for any major work.

Mike:)

[Redback]

Interesting reading so far. I have just passed 200,000ks with 2 recent trips across the Nullabore. Had the old girl chipped on the way home which will probably stress the engine a bit more. I am heading up North this winter for a holiday in the Kimberly and need to get everything perfect before I go. I have not repaced head gaskets or double cardin and have only replaced one hub the Left rear. What major items should I be looking at before I head off. I do all my own servicing but will hand over to Mechanic for any major work.

Mike:)

Because it is chipped now your EGTs will be higher, so look at the exhaust manifold modification of cutting or grinding out the webbing between the ports, because of the higher EGT temps your exhaust manifold will warp more often and break exhaust studs, also install an EGT gauge and low coolent alarm to keep an eye on EGT and coolent temps.

Baz.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I'd do a head gasket,,
and replace all UJ's in the front drive shaft.

[dirtdawg]

So a defender post 2003 shouldn't have any probs and be good for 500+klms (I'm looking for one atm)

[toad]

So a defender post 2003 shouldn't have any probs and be good for 500+klms (I'm looking for one atm)

My TD5 has only done 380 000 km to date, but it is now 12 years old. It did a head gasket and had very bent plastic dowels (z shaped!) when we did the head at just on 120 000 km 3 years in. Luckily the valves had not rubbed on the bore!

Since then I have done the fuel pressure regulator and currently have a leaking fuel cooler (I have the O-rings but it’s one of them O round-to-it jobs) and an oil leak. Heading to the Cape later this year so will see if we crack 400 000 km.

[scarry]

post my03 td5's I havent had to do one yet but gut instinct tells me that a stock unit should make 500K km,



Geez,mine has a way to go,just clocked over 87K:o

[Blknight.aus]

Interesting reading so far. I have just passed 200,000ks with 2 recent trips across the Nullabore. Had the old girl chipped on the way home which will probably stress the engine a bit more. I am heading up North this winter for a holiday in the Kimberly and need to get everything perfect before I go. I have not repaced head gaskets or double cardin and have only replaced one hub the Left rear. What major items should I be looking at before I head off. I do all my own servicing but will hand over to Mechanic for any major work.

Mike:)

fuel pressure regulator
fuel pump
exhaust manifold
EGR
injector harness
Throttle position sensor
Crank angle sensor (seem to let go at ~125K Km intervals if they are going to)
definately the oil pump bolt ( I like to do it as part of the X00K Km service now as it also offers the opportunity to eye the bottom end of the donk and desludge the sump)
Check all the belt driven gear
service the cooling system and replace the thermostat
inspect the water pump for signs of leakage
check the viscous fan
desludge the intercooler
change the brake fluid
inspect the brakes
tyre rotation and rebalance
mk1 the alignment
battery condition
pull the axles, flanges and eyeball them for wear
change the grease in the CV's (better convert to oil if the rest of the sealing surfaces are ok or you want to sort it all properly)
Diff oils,
re uj the shafts and get the DC shaft inspected out of the vehicle
inspect the hand brake
check the box oil and change it (Assuming its not been done in the last 12 months/50K Km)

[robbotd5]

Geez,mine has a way to go,just clocked over 87K:o
I can beat that. I bought my 2004 TD5 classic country manual brand new. Zambezi silver, L/R black interior. 67000km on the clock. It is in immaculate condition. If anything, overserviced. Just got my second oil analysis report back after doing 2853km's on the oil. Fuel dilution is 6%. Up from 4.4% last time.
Lucky me:twisted:.
Regards
Robbo

[Gaudough]

My 2003 D2a has clocked 278,000kms with zero major issues. Changed the fuel pump as a precaution at 240k when the fuel lines rubbed through and leaked.
New double cardan under warranty at 99,000kms, rebuilt DC at 200,000kms, newABS module at 140,000kms (warranty as it was picked up at 70,000kms). 3 Fuel regulators and a Power steering pump.
I must say I treat the Disco with care and listen out for any unusual noises (you can hear them in a Disco) and had it dealer serviced (I get on very well with the service manager) up to 260,000kms but now do it myself mainly due to not wanting to sink too much money into it.
My father was a Diesel mechanic so I have a lot of mechanical sympathy. i.e I wont chip it at this mileage, it would be like making me (47 and fat) run a quick 400m sprint.

Regards Gordo

[rovercare]

My father was a Diesel mechanic so I have a lot of mechanical sympathy. i.e I wont chip it at this mileage, it would be like making me (47 and fat) run a quick 400m sprint.

Regards Gordo

It'd probably do you both some good:D

[mattg]

My Barry (99 Auto TD5) has done 352,000km, I bought him last year at 328,000. I have service history up to 185,000. I have a couple of oil leaks down the back some where that i cant work out where they are coming from.
I gave him a new set of hoses, every filter, and all fluids, recoed the brakes all over. Greasable unis on the drive shaft. New Diff carrier bearings (should have done the pinion bearings as well it has to come out again.:() All this took alot of time I have done it all myself and as a result know my truck pretty well. Barry will do 500K easy and we have a ball driving the tribe around in perfectly air conditioned Comfort. I am soon to restore his back end to SLS.

I figure he probebly had the head gasket done at some point. It might need to come off again to fix the oil leak, but I will be starting a new thread on that latter.

I am thinking about doing a compression test and if all is good I might Chip him. (Stage one)

How long do the turbos last? I have been told that Garrett don't make a reco kit, anyone else been able to reco their turbo?

Cheers

Matt

[mattg]

Forgot the new shocks, went for dobinsons.

[rick130]

It'd probably do you both some good:D

:lol2:

[scarry]

I can beat that. I bought my 2004 TD5 classic country manual brand new. Zambezi silver, L/R black interior. 67000km on the clock. It is in immaculate condition. If anything, overserviced. Just got my second oil analysis report back after doing 2853km's on the oil. Fuel dilution is 6%. Up from 4.4% last time.
Lucky me:twisted:.
Regards
Robbo

Bought mine new as well,also overserviced:)
I watch the oil level,if i get oil tests,it would only cause me to worry,probably unnecessarily.My oil level has never changed,either up or down,i hope it stays this way.
Short trips can probably cause fuel dilution tests to be higher than they should be.

[RR P38]

How do you collect your oil sample?
It should be collected when the engine is running and at operating temperature.
If you are just say getting it out of the sump when the engine is shut down the consistency of the sample is not the same as when it is running.
A variation from 4.4% increasing to 6% sounds a lot but in reality could be just fuel that has been taken off the top or bottom of you container that has just been drained into from the sump.
I work on large ships we have many engines and pumps gearboxes etc that are regularly oil sampled.
You wouldnt believe half the readings we get back from the lab.
If a sample is consistent with at least 2 others we might take some notice of it.
Sure they are good to let you know if the Bearings are stuffed but fuel dilution its a tough call unless it is like 10% plus in which case you will see it on the dip stick as an increasing level.
Save your money and buy some more oil.

[Blknight.aus]

My Barry (99 Auto TD5) has done 352,000km, I bought him last year at 328,000. I have service history up to 185,000. I have a couple of oil leaks down the back some where that i cant work out where they are coming from.
I gave him a new set of hoses, every filter, and all fluids, recoed the brakes all over. Greasable unis on the drive shaft. New Diff carrier bearings (should have done the pinion bearings as well it has to come out again.:() All this took alot of time I have done it all myself and as a result know my truck pretty well. Barry will do 500K easy and we have a ball driving the tribe around in perfectly air conditioned Comfort. I am soon to restore his back end to SLS.

I figure he probebly had the head gasket done at some point. It might need to come off again to fix the oil leak, but I will be starting a new thread on that latter.

I am thinking about doing a compression test and if all is good I might Chip him. (Stage one)

How long do the turbos last? I have been told that Garrett don't make a reco kit, anyone else been able to reco their turbo?

Cheers

Matt

there is a reco kit for them... its only about $100 cheaper than buying a new unit by the time you get it delivered and have it fitted up (its about $250 cheaper if you fit it all yourself.

My money says that you are better off replacing the whole thing. if your going the way of upgrades save the money on the turbo and push it towards VNTing the thing then chipping it.

Ive seen a td5 turbo dead inside 50K Km but thats the exception to the norm looked after well I'd expect it to last to 500K Km but you will likely be noticing degredation from wheel wear at around the 300K Km mark (its a very gradual degredation so you probably wont notice it untill A, you have to pull the turbo apart for bearing/seal work B, you replace/overhaul it and your lag shortens up and you pick up 2psi of boost

[Narangga]

Back home so I can upload the Tech Bulletin.

As it specifically says

'CAUTION: Td5 derivatives prior to the above VIN ranges must not, under any
circumstances, be fitted with the new steel dowels. If steel dowels are fitted to
earlier engines, cylinder head cracking may result.',

I have decided not to replace mine.

[ntguy]

Thought I would re hash this post.


Having just brought a D2a with 345k kms and about to embark on 6k trip from Melbourne.

Will post as I go along, by the time I get home it will have over 350k kms.

[PhilipA]

'CAUTION: Td5 derivatives prior to the above VIN ranges must not, under any
circumstances, be fitted with the new steel dowels. If steel dowels are fitted to
earlier engines, cylinder head cracking may result.',

I assume that the "NEW" steel dowels are longer than the old steel dowels and the old dowels stick into the head of pre 2002 as the holes are machined deeper..

My VIN is in the range of 02 .

Does anyone have the dimensions of the old vs new? So I can check if I am getting new.

BTW mine is 178KK with no water usage other than that oozing from the right angle hose from steel pipe to water pump from the reinforcing material . It uses about 1teaspoon full in 6 months. And it is an OEM hose.
Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

I did a bit of a google and found some info, including this photo from Landyzone which looks very much like a distorted steel dowel.
So where does that leave us?

103802

regards Philip A

[bob10]

I am thinking about doing a compression test and if all is good I might Chip him. (Stage one)

How long do the turbos last? I have been told that Garrett don't make a reco kit, anyone else been able to reco their turbo?

Cheers

Matt

I have 392,000 km 's, original turbo. Some horizontal movement in the vane shaft, no smoke of any description issueing. Turbo lag below 1200 rpm. Has all the power I need for what I do. I prefer to drive the vehicle, not give it the berries. Having said that, I don't take impossible tracks. If I did, I would get a Perentie.

I believe trouble with the TD5 starts with trying to get too much out of the engine, any chip MUST come with an EGT gauge, and temps monitered closely. Just my thoughts, temperature is King with an aluminium head.

[schuy1]

I assume that the "NEW" steel dowels are longer than the old steel dowels and the old dowels stick into the head of pre 2002 as the holes are machined deeper..

My VIN is in the range of 02 .

Does anyone have the dimensions of the old vs new? So I can check if I am getting new.

BTW mine is 178KK with no water usage other than that oozing from the right angle hose from steel pipe to water pump from the reinforcing material . It uses about 1teaspoon full in 6 months. And it is an OEM hose.
Regards Philip A

I suspect the reasoning behind this is the different expansion properties of plastic dowels vs steel. the steel will expand more therefore putting stress on the alloy. The holes must be sized accordingly in the newer steel doweled heads.
Cheers Scott
PS, Mine has done 276k so far without the head being done. Touch wood!:eek:

[bn172]

Happy New Year to all. My 01 D2 td5 auto has done 323k, It is still on the original head gasket. We have just completed a camping trip from Seaford(vic) to Nelson back to Seaford to restock then straight up to the high country(howqua) and back home about 1600ks towing a junko hawk outback camper that weighs 1500kgs. We averaged about 14lt /100k. average speed of about 80kph. I bought the disco with 98k in 2008. Its running 32in bfg km2s, 3.9 great basin c/p's, rear ARB locker, 2inch lift, bull bar & winch. Hope i haven't jinked myself .Planing on doing Cape York later in the year(no van though) Still love it Cheers Ben.:)

[ntguy]

Some intresting stats here.

I was told that my D2a engine was near end of life at 340k kms and the trans is good for only 200k kms.

Also diffs would be worn out. All info gleaned from LR Mech and this was his advice

[schuy1]

Change your mechanic :D Apart from the autos tending to go at 2-250ks the rest is crap!
Cheers Scott

[Slunnie]

Autos will go well beyond that, just don't overheat them and service them.

[roverv8]

I did a bit of a google and found some info, including this photo from Landyzone which looks very much like a distorted steel dowel.
So where does that leave us?

103802

regards Philip A

Hi Phillip,
Thats how 1 of the plastic dowls in mine looked when I removed the head, the other was brittle & fell to bits

I fitted a new head (AMC) with steel dowls, all went together no problems.
1999 TD5
Having said that, Im not sure how the OEM head copes with steel dowl, although im sure it's been done reading this.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/127074-td5-steel-dowel-not-steel-dowel.html

[PhilipA]

Thats how 1 of the plastic dowls in mine looked when I removed the head, the other was brittle & fell to bits

The point I was trying to make maybe poorly, is that the forces are such that they bend steel dowels as well as plastic ones.

It also makes me question the chicken and egg syndrome.

IMHO it shows that it is overheating that first loosens the head from the block, and THEN shuffling occurs, and it is so forceful that it affects steel dowels as well.
So the remedy is not to preemptively change dowels but to do everything possible to prevent overheating.
Regards Philip A

[worane]

When I did a head job on my TD5 , I bought all the gaskets and parts from British 4x4 on the Sunshine coast.
They supplied all the parts for the job including steel dowels.
I had also read about the steel verses plastic argument and rang them to query the matter.
They assured me that they have done dozens of these head rebuilds and that ALL of them are done ONLY with steel dowels.
regards, Nick.
PS. Another point, I notice how many of the unreliability problems seem to be coming from cars with chipped ecu 's
It would seem to be the old case of " the more you mess with the engine , the less reliable it becomes.

I now need to go out the back and dig a deep foxhole to hide in.

[worane]

Ntguy.
If your car has been well cared for, I would say that at that mileage it is about half life.

[Disco Muppet]

Chips rule!!!!1 :p
In all seriousness, a chip will only negatively impact the engines lifespan if it's not operated in a safe manner, or its a poor quality chip.


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Slunnie]

PS. Another point, I notice how many of the unreliability problems seem to be coming from cars with chipped ecu 's
It would seem to be the old case of " the more you mess with the engine , the less reliable it becomes.

I tend to agree with this when the power outputs are raised, especially if EGT's go up from standard.